Malicious Builder???????

Kashkai · 13-03-2007 12:49pm #1

Genuine story and follow up query here Mods so forgive me if you think I'm overstepping boundaries......

Despite taking the time to check out the past references of my builder, my experience of this guy is one of frustration bordering on soul destroying. His original timeframe of 4 1/2 months to do my 1,600 sq ft extension (optimistic I'd agree) is now into the 9th month with no end in sight. If anything things are going backwards.

We had a "full and frank" discussion 5 weeks ago during which I left him in no doubt that I wouldn't tolerate any further delays/shoddy work on my house. He made a brief spurt but then disappeared again. He wanted a snag list done even though there's no sanitary ware fitted, the heating isn't working properly, the plaster work is deplorable etc. After consulting my solicitor about the delays, I put it to Bob the Builder that 9 months to build (still ongoing remember) and 18 weeks out of my house (living with my wife & 3 kids in the parent's small house 30 miles away), was the end of the line for us. I told him that my solicitor had advised that I call in another independent engineer to assess the work to date, work outstanding, quality of work etc. We would then agree on a final schedule of works with a fixed end date.

Bob the builder was furious that I had gone to my solicitor and that I would be bringing in another engineer to assess his work to date. I went away for the weekend as I needed a break away from this mess. On my way home last Monday, I got a chirpy call from Bob to say that he'd had to dig up my newly tiled bathroom floor to relay a leaking water pipe (he had previously informed me last January that the new pipework was installed, pressurised and had no leaks. I know for a fact that it didn't leak up to the time I tiled the bathroom at the start of March. Funny how the leak appeared after we'd had our discussion re the Solicitor and Engineer). He said if I arranged to get more tiles, adhesive and grout, then he'd get one of his lads to relay the tiles "cheaply for me". Now after spending €4,000 on tiles, bath, tiler etc, I wasn't impressed. When I got to the house and saw the devastation he'd made (I'm not exaggerating), I was speechless with rage. What had been a beautifully tiled bathroom was destroyed with our new €1,400 bath covered in rubble and muck. His crew where standing around with smug smiles on their faces when they saw how mad I was. It was the first time in my life that I really wanted to hit someone.

End of rant. Now for the advice bit. Has anyone else ever had similar problems whereby a disagreement with a builder has led to malicious damage to the house? Now I paid for the tiles, bath and tiler as they weren't included in the contract and so Bob now states that they're not his problem. I want to avoid the hassle of going to court, not to mention the fact that my house is still in complete sh1te. What are the options?

Doodee · 13-03-2007 12:54pm

he's a builder, i would stand my ground if i were you. get another engineer out, if they say the work is bad replace the builder.

Never back down from the beer bellied, over-charging and untrustworthy builders of this country, givernment has been doing it for far too long

r3nu4l · 13-03-2007 12:58pm

No experience of this but shouldn't he have called you to tell you he was doing this before ripping up the floor?

I think that you should go back to your solicitor and seek further advice. Did you get an engineer? Ask the engineer to chat with the builder about the 'leak' as well as all of the other work.

Agree with your builder that any further major changes to existing work should be cleared with you first.

Maybe you should cut your losses, see what the solicitor says.

muffler · 13-03-2007 3:24pm

I think that you are into legal territory here. Questions need asked as to why the pipes leaked in the first place. Doesnt really matter if it was faulty materials, poor workmanship or both. The point is that you have now endured consequential damage as a result of a fault. Who's fault was it and what insurance have they in place to indemnify you in this instance.

I think its a clear case of getting the full extent of the damage to the floor and tiles fully accessed by a surveyor/engineer and then talking to your solicitor about this matter.

I think its sheer coincidence that your builder had to dig up the floor when he did. He would have been very foolish to have done it out of spite.

layke · 13-03-2007 3:36pm

Aye your well into legal here.

Fire him now, get a reputable builder to check his work and sue him for his cock ups.

eoghan.geraghty · 14-03-2007 12:22am

I agree with r3nu4l, bob should defo have contacted you before ripping up tiles ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE.
Caps used as these will be the important words to use if this goes down the legal route.
As tiling was outside his remit he had no permission or duty or right to alter/damage them.
I do sympathise with you dave.
Maybe when all is finished, give us a final report on outcome.

Kashkai · 14-03-2007 9:57am

Just an update.

My tiler called me last night to say he had been around to the house to finish off a few snags and was shocked at what Bob had done to the bathroom. "The eejit didn't even have the sense to move the bath or try to protect it from damage" said the tiler, someone who has no vested interest either way in what happened (apart from the fact that his good work was wrecked).

He'll be meeting me at the house today when I call around with my engineer to assess the damage. He said he'll repair the tiling and give me an itemised bill which I can use to deduct money from what I still owe Bob the builder on the final stage payment.

The engineer has advised me to say nothing to Bob in the interim, no matter how he might try to provoke me.

Salmon · 15-03-2007 4:48pm

This sounds like an absolute nightmare dave! Its stressful enough when everything goes well when youre building a house, but to meet a builder like that its hell! Best of luck and I hope the situation is resolved to your satisfaction soon!

Kashkai · 27-03-2007 2:41pm

Just an update:-<

I brought in an Engineer to assess the shoddy work to date (in my opinion)and his report shocked the life out of me e.g.

1. The roof is "unstable", "not constructed properly", "is structurally unsound", "hazardous", "would not recommend habitation of the house until roof defects put right" - these are some of the Engineer's quotes on the roof alone.

2. The plumbing is a mess. Hot and cold pipes in contact with each other and heat transferrance in place. This explains why the cold water taps have warm water in them.

3. The plasterwork is extremely shoddy in places and needs to be stripped back and redone.

4. The electrical sockets are not recessed far enough into the wall and a "child could get their fingers in under the faceplate and touch the live wires". As I have 3 young kids, this really annoys me.

5. The extractor fans in the bathrooms are venting straight into the insulation. There are no pipes to take steam away to the exterior of the house.

I could go on (the Engineer's report goes to 8 pages) but you get the gist. We met with the builder last week and he at first tried to put the blame on me as my original Architect walked as "he was too busy to oversee construction". Therefore there was no supervision of the roof construction. I reminded him that he said his roofer was the best in the business and that if I halted construction pending finding another Engineer, this would put the build back months. However my Engineer took him to pieces and in the end he got the builder to agree to remediation works to make the roof structurally sound. Ane the sweet part was that the Engineer told the builder that he would have to pay his fees as he was liable for the hazardous build. When the fees were agreed at €5k plus VAT, Bob the builder was almost choking but as the Engineer pointed out, any Court would rule against him and he'd pay more in the end.

After the meeting, Bob the builder had the cheek to approach me looking for money to cover the final stage payment. Obviously he got short shrift but its amazing the neck these guys have when it comes to looking for money.

I'm still considering seeking damages for the extended period my family and I have been put out of our house (20 weeks and counting) and for the storage costs of €500 a month for our furniture. The Engineer said he will back any case I take against the builder but my wife isn't keen as she doesn't want the additional hassle of a court case. Is she right and am I being a little vindictive against the builder?

r3nu4l · 27-03-2007 2:59pm

Thanks for the update Dave, good job you insisted on getting the engineer in to look at things

I don't think you are being vindictive against the builder and imo he should be pursued but at the end of the day you have to think is it worth the hassle? Try to find out a bit more about what kind of time this kind of legal action would take from you and weigh that up against just getting on with your life.

On the other hand, if this guy is allowed to continue trading, he will probably rip off everyone else he comes across. Your choice but if it was me after all you've been through I'd probably just be happy to have the job done properly and leave it at that

CJhaughey · 27-03-2007 3:13pm

I wouldn't think seeking damages against him is being vindictive, you are seeking compensation from him for substandard work.
In fact in light of his malicious behaviour wrt to the bathroom, Personally I would wait until he has finished the job to the required standard(if he is capable of it) and then go to town on his ass, (legally of course).

muffler · 27-03-2007 3:17pm

Do a bit of bluffing. Get your solicitor to put him on notice of possible court proceedings being instigated in the event that the works are not fully completed within an agreed time and providing a settlement is made by the builder to off-set the storage costs.

You dont have to proceed with any form of litigation but he wont know that and he will be walking on egg shells from now on. Talk to your solicitor in any event.

muffler · 27-03-2007 3:19pm

CJhaughey wrote:

and then go to town on his ass, (legally of course).

Jesus, that was close

Kashkai · 27-03-2007 3:36pm

I can see both points of view - on the one hand, I want the job finished to an acceptable standard and to see the back of Bob the Builder, but on the other hand, he's caused me so much grief and money wasted on a lengthy storage period that I feel he owes me some compensation (which he previously laughed off).

He said to the Engineer yesterday that he wants his stage payment when the roof is put right, but that will leave only a few grand outstanding to cover the snags which are considerable in number and which I don't believe he will address. I think I'll hold everything back pending full completion of the house and maybe some as retention in case things go pear shaped when we move back in (if things are so shoddy on the surface, how many hidden snags will we find later on??)

squire1 · 27-03-2007 3:44pm

I agree to hold back payment until the job is complete and the Engineer has signed it off. Basically Dave, the witholding of payment is the only "stick" you have to beat him with. I'm not sure if threats of solicitors would be of any worry to this guy from what you are saying.

Basically, if you dont pay him in full before completion, what is he going to do, bring you to court?

smashey · 27-03-2007 4:06pm

I wouldn't give him another cent until the work is completed to your engineer's satisfaction. Even then, I would be inclined to give him nothing for at least a year after completion. Also, as Muffler said, talk to your solicitor. People like this need to be brought to book and if the legal route is the way to do it, then so be it. If this puts the muppet out of business, all it means is one less to worry about.

eoghan.geraghty · 28-03-2007 12:08am

Dave it looks like that 5k for the engineer is the best money you (or bob) ever spent.
Don't pay anymore to bob until final completion.
I think this guys work speaks volumes about his character and he'll gladly cut his losses on a headache of a job for a few grand.
Congratulations on not losing the head and getting a real pro in.
Tell the wife if you do sue you'll take her on a 2nd honeymoon, this might change her mind.
Don't mention lawsuit until final completion either, again he'll just cut his losses and walk away.

muffler · 28-03-2007 12:25am

eoghan.geraghty wrote:

Tell the wife if you do sue you'll take her on a 2nd honeymoon, this might change her mind.

That all depends on how the first honeymoon went

Kashkai · 28-03-2007 10:00am

muffler wrote:

That all depends on how the first honeymoon went

First honeymoon went great - Hong Kong, Bali & Singapore. Didn't know then that when the kids arrived, my recent weekend away in Athlone would be the best I could hope for (I'm thankful for small mercies:) )

After reading the comments above, I think I'll get the Solicitor on the job to (a) inform Bob that I'm holding back money until the job is done (and for a 6 month retention period thereafter) and (b) get his advice on pursuing a compensation claim against this guy for the grief he's caused us.

Regards,

David

squire1 · 28-03-2007 11:07am

I was just wondering if you have a written contract with the builder or not. If you don't ,then does anyone know of any way where you could sue a builder for inconvenience caused or consequential loss. (These would normally be covered in a contract.) I'd imagine it would prove quite difficult but you are right to consult your solicitor about it.

The problem with (a) for me is that if the builder sees that you are going to sue him, he might just walk away. Without a contract on your side, you will still be obliged to pay him for the work that he has completed (less the cost of putting the problems right). But it will invariably end up in court and you can never be sure how that will turn out. Best to string him along for as long as possible and ensure the work is completed (competantly) before you hit him with the hammer blow of retention.

Just my 2c. I hope it works out for you.

muffler · 28-03-2007 12:05pm

Cant agree with you squire 1 on that method. Like any tradesman (or so called) he will not want the exposure of a potential court case so he will be on his best behaviour IMHO.

If he is still owed a stage payment then that should be sufficient to keep him on the site as he stands to loose too much.

In relation to a contract - it is better to have these things in writing but in any event the builder has a responsibility to carry out the works in a competent fashion and within an agreed time frame irrespective of whether its in writing or not.

NextSteps · 28-03-2007 12:10pm

I presume you're documenting the whole thing with photos and a diary/record of all conversations, agreements, decisions and payments.

squire1 · 28-03-2007 12:23pm

muffler wrote:

Cant agree with you squire 1 on that method. Like any tradesman (or so called) he will not want the exposure of a potential court case so he will be on his best behaviour IMHO.

If he is still owed a stage payment then that should be sufficient to keep him on the site as he stands to loose too much.

Sorry for not being clear but that was my point. However, informing him in advance of the intention to withold retention for six months might be enough incentive for him to call it a day and take his own legal case to get the outstanding money.

muffler wrote:

In relation to a contract - it is better to have these things in writing but in any event the builder has a responsibility to carry out the works in a competent fashion and within an agreed time frame irrespective of whether its in writing or not.

Agreed on the competent work but how do you prove an agreed timeframe without a contract?

Kashkai · 28-03-2007 1:19pm

I have a contract with this guy - drawn up by him.

Looking back now, we were strongarmed into signing this in a hurry as he said he could get started on the job in the next day or so (i.e. last July) once the contract was signed. He didn't offer us the opportunity to seek our own legal advice on the contract at the time. As he came "highly recommended", we were naieve/stupid not to insist on our own solicitor seeing the contract before we signed it.

Anyway, my Engineer has now informed me that the builder front loaded the contract to get the maximum amount of money out of us with very little left for snagging at the end of the contract which would allow him to walk away leaving us with a mess and him only 3 grand out of pocket. If I were to pay him the last stage payment of 20 grand, there is only this 3 grand left for "snagging" which wouldn't even touch the mess he's made of everything. When I mentioned holding back money on retention, Bob was very annoyed saying the (i.e. his) contract doesn't allow for retention money on an "extension" (its a 1,600 sq ft extension - bigger than your average sunroom I'm sure you'd agree).

He wants the last stage payment once the roof is fixed but as stated above, this will leave me with damn all if he then walks which I'm 100% sure he will after taking a hit on the roof repairs and the Engineers fees. Time for the Solicitor to step in I think. However, the wife disagrees as she still thinks the builder will do the honourable thing and complete the job to an acceptable standard

.

It will now be the end of April by the time he's finished this job. Thats almost 11 months on the job:rolleyes: and 6 months for us out of our house and paying €500 a month for storage fees. I think he owes us and at the risk of annoying the wife (yet again), I'm going to go after this guy legally. I think he'll back down as he's constantly talking about his good reputation. Therefore he won't want a day in court where this shoddy work will be aired in public.

Ewan · 28-03-2007 11:19pm

Dave,
legal is the only way to go...once a solicators letter arrives in his door he wont be long jumping through hoops for you..

Builderwoman! · 29-03-2007 7:49pm

Dave, feel awful sorry for ye hearing your news. Was passing your house last week and actually was surprised to see that it was still far from finished. It's a real pain dealing with people like that. Even though we are local to you I'm not from here (hubby is) and I don't think I recognised the builders sign outside your house. I def feel (knowing the area) that you need to expose this guy and his shoddy work through the courts and you need to hold off on paying him that final payment or he'll be gone! From my experience on our build if we paid anyone in full they never returned even if they had a small bit to finish for us. You need to keep him hungry for the cash or otherwise he will do a runner and you'll be left trying to get someone else to rectify his faults. Your engineer sounds great...would like to have had someone like that on our build 'cos our guy was a bit lazy...luckily enough we had some good trades on site.

Taking up the tiles in that manner was nothing short of an act of vandalism and I wouldn't be long telling him that at the end. We had experience with an apprentice kicking down plasterboard because he was "pissed off" and I told his boss that he would be paying for it to be replaced and that he was to remind the apprentice that he was in our house and he needed to repect us, the trades that came before him and the ones who have to come after him. I got the rep of being a "b!tch but I didn't care...I made my point! We had stuff in storage too so I know how the bills keep mounting up. We were also renting for 7 months but that was because we put out other house on the market and it sold in a week at a gret price and we had planned on it taking 6 months! I think your wife, with all due respect, is being too kind to this builder...she needs to come around to your way of thinking. I know dealing with tradesmen certainly toughened me up! You need to be ten steps ahead of them and well able for them or they make an eegit out of you! That's my experience. Will be watching the post with interest! Best of luck.

Kashkai · 30-03-2007 10:41am

Hi Kay,

This builder (and I use that term very loosely!!) built the large 2 storey stone fronted house <SNIP> about from me and another one <SNIP>. I asked these people what they thought of him and it was they who recommended him ("he's very quick, very diligent, good worker":eek: ). Did I employ his evil twin???

He built these 3,000 sq ft houses from the foundations up in 6 months flat. I can't for the life of me think why my 1,600 ft extension is now into its 10th month with still another 6 weeks of work to do (if he keeps at it of course). As mentioned previously, the standard of workmanship, whether its plumbing, electrical, plastering and of course roofing is appalling. I'm no perfectionist and I would be prepared to put up with minor snags but you'd have to see the mess he's made to believe it.

I've never taken legal action against anyone in my life but this guy has pushed me way beyond the limit of my patience and its time he got a kick in the ass (legally and financially of course - although the physical kick would suit me fine right now:D )

Have to convince my good wife of course which won't be easy as she's that rare type who sees the good in everyone - suppose thats why she married me

David

Edit by muffler: I dont want anything posted that will identify the builder especially in light of possible litigation

Builderwoman! · 31-03-2007 9:31am

Don't worry Muffler...I've seen the sign at Dave's house and I still have no idea who the guy is...I'm a "blow in" or "townie" as they like to call us around here!!

Dave, really do think that you are doing the right thing taking legal action 'cos one way or another this guy has you over a barrel and legal action or the threat of it might be the only thing to make him sit up and take notice...you'll be wrong anyway in his eyes but the priority for you has to be at this stage to get the house to a finished, habitable stage and get back in. I take you don't have a child starting schoool in Sept or any further pressures like that hanging over your head?? Just thought it you had it might be away to convince your wife to do something because I guess you are going nowhere fast with this guy at the moment. I know that it's difficult for any of us to switch from being non litigous to going down that route. Word of advice from a woman how to "maybe" get around your wife would be...start trying to get her to see things totally from your perspective as a family...how much time and money it's costing you...how much the kids are going to loose out if they don't get back home for the summer, how unsafe the house is at the moment for them etc. She's looking at it, in my humble opinion, too much from the builder's perspective and not from her/your own. Also get her to go to all your meetings with the builder and ensure that she sees exactly what you are dealing with. Maybe there's no talking her around but I think she needs to see the bigger picture. By the sound of things she's way to nice to be dealing with trades! It makes you tough dealing with these guys, believe you me, I know!!

One final question I forgot to ask last time Dave...where was your engineer or architect when the builder was making all these mistakes...surely he has a part to play in this whole scenario?

Kashkai · 02-04-2007 9:17am

Hi Kay,

My Architect (with whom I had a signed contract to oversee the build from initial planning through to snagging) walked when he got half his fee at the planning permission stage. He told us he was too busy to oversee the actual construction of the extension. He was a R.I.A.I. member and when I rang them to see if they could get him to honour his contract, their advice was "try and work it out with your Architect".

We had a friend of ours oversee the foundations and up to wall plate level but she then went on maternity leave and we couldn't in all honesty ask her to keep an eye on things as she had a new baby to deal with. We couldn't get another Engineer in (believe me, we tried) as they didn't want to sign off on work they hadn't supervised from the start even though we had our friend's reports (we could see their point of view). Anyway, it was from wall plate level onwards that things went awry.

I called out to the house last night to see what had been done. The roof is now actually attached to the house with metals straps as opposed to just sitting on top of the wall plate being held by a few nails. The walls and ceilings have had to be kango hammered to get this done, ruining the plasterwork and thus things have gone backwards AGAIN!!!.

None of the other plumbing, plastering or electrical defects (i.e. far more serious than mere snags - the Engineer has described some of the electrical work as a fire hazard) have been touched. I also noticed another water leak coming through a wall behind one of the ensuite showers - which had leaked before and was supposedly fixed. I suppose Bob will have to dig up more of our tiles to fix this leak.

My wife is actually running out of patience with him at this stage and is (very) slowly coming around to my viewpoint (i.e. time to start biting back at bob). She hasn't seen the house in a while as she gets frustrated at the snails pace of bob and co. I think you're right in that I should drag her out to the money pit or better yet, let her go out by herself so she can make her own mind up.

I'm waiting for him to ring at the moment to tell me he's now fixed the roof and there's no further possibility that it will at some point collapse on top of my children's heads (as the Engineer said it would prior to remediation). He'll probably think he's a great fella for doing this work and will be looking for the cheque I stopped on him. Meanwhile I'm entertaining very dark and murderous thoughts:mad:

To Muffler,

I've been asked in a pm from a boardsie (not Builderwoman!)to name this builder which I refused for the reasons you mentioned. However, Bob the builder has a sign outside my house proudly proclaiming his work though at this stage I'd have thought having a sign outside my house for 10 months would not be much of an advertisement for doing a good and more importantly quick job. Perhaps I can put up my own sign along the lines of -

"Started 6th July 2006

Finished sometime in the 21st century (we hope)"

David

muffler · 02-04-2007 11:54am

Prosperous Dave wrote:

To Muffler,

I've been asked in a pm from a boardsie (not Builderwoman!)to name this builder which I refused for the reasons you mentioned. However, Bob the builder has a sign outside my house proudly proclaiming his work though at this stage I'd have thought having a sign outside my house for 10 months would not be much of an advertisement for doing a good and more importantly quick job. Perhaps I can put up my own sign along the lines of -

"Started 6th July 2006
Finished sometime in the 21st century (we hope)"

David

Thanks David. I hope you understand why we would all love to name and shame but unfortunately we cant - well certainly not on boards.ie

I like the idea of adding a bit of text to his sign. Maybe you could do a bookies chart on it along the lines of -

BETTING: To have work finished by June 2007 - 100/1
To have works finished by Sept 2007 - 50/1
To have works finished by January 2008 - 10/1
To walk off site and abandon the job - 1/5

Victor · 02-04-2007 12:19pm

Prosperous Dave wrote:

My Architect (with whom I had a signed contract to oversee the build from initial planning through to snagging) walked when he got half his fee at the planning permission stage. He told us he was too busy to oversee the actual construction of the extension. He was a R.I.A.I. member and when I rang them to see if they could get him to honour his contract, their advice was "try and work it out with your Architect".

This is where you went wrong.

If you don't get to sue the builder, ask the solicitor about suing the Architect.

Malicious Builder???????

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