Tournament Life Syndrome - Part 1 (IF) AND 2 (when, where, how etc)

jimbling · 06-12-2006 12:56pm #1

Okay. I got a bit freaked out by gholi’s reaction to my posts the other day (and the fact that some people seem to think it's a syndrome :-). It was probably the most bizarre thread ever. It ended extremely strangely as well.
But anyway, lets forget that slinging match. Lets start again.

So I am posting this to start an actual debate on the subject. A lot of the boards posters seem to think that this concept is stupid and ridiculous, but I really can’t see they’re logic. Perhaps it needs to be explained to me correctly (which is why im starting this thread), but nothing I have seen or read has convinced me otherwise. In fact, I think it’s so obvious that what they are really arguing is WHEN (which is an illusion also) you consider it rather than IF.
I mean, almost everyone admits that tournament life comes into the equation when faced with certain scenarios. I gave one extreme example* in that post and almost everyone agreed that they would fold.

So, please fill in the poll. But could you also post a response and give a reason for your decision.

I am going to wait for the eventualities of this post before continuing on with the debate (PART 2 - WHEN)
I want to get a feel for numbers here, so please reply.

*Quick summary of hand:
3 players left. 2 get paid in a top heavy tournament. you are in 2nd with 80k. 1st place has 90k and 3rd place has 10k.
You have 1010 and 1st place guy goes all in. He accidentally turns up his cards and shows AK. Do you call.
This is obviously a superficial scenario, and very extreme, but all I am trying to do is portray the existence of tournament life consideration in a hand.

Atlas_IRL · 06-12-2006 1:06pm

i would prob fold if i knew i could beat him heads up.. if he was clearly better than me and i thought he would nail me heads up i would take the race

correct me if im wrong but didnt Chris Ferguson do a similiar move when he won the wsop main event in 2001.
He was chip leader but was being chipped away by his opponent so he took a race when he knew he'd only be about 40+% when he had his opponent covered just and won.

cardshark202 · 06-12-2006 1:08pm

Person who worries about 'tournament life' = fish

ianmc38 · 06-12-2006 1:18pm

My EV equations need a bit of work. Payout figures are important as well in order to be able to derive a neater equation instead of using variables... I call here though.

jimbling · 06-12-2006 1:20pm

cardshark202 wrote:

Person who worries about 'tournament life' = fish

these are the types of comments I am trying to avoid cardshark. Can you explain why you think this please?
And I can assure you that is not the case. I had a discussion with a 3 time bracelet winner about this at a table. He gave an example where he would fold KK Vs a known AK preflop. I didnt agree with him, but I am sure this guy is not a fish.

58o · 06-12-2006 1:22pm

People who worry about tournie life = people who get blinded down to nothing(after folding in some good spots because they thought they woul be able to "outplay" there opponents later) , then finally find AA push in their remaining 6bb and get "dogged".

kebabfest · 06-12-2006 1:27pm

Fold if I thought I was the better player and was suffering less fatigue than the other players, An important factor after 10-12 hours play.
If I am less tired and feel I am a better player why would I take a coin toss ?

If I was more f**ked than the other player and he was playing better then I would call.

Chris Ferguson did it against T J Coultier and he got lucky after T J completely outplayed him. Jesus was very honest about this !!

smurph · 06-12-2006 1:27pm

Okay so you get to the Final table of a very top heavy tournament, and you are chip leader.

You have 2 options, bully the f**k out of the smaller stacks or else sit back tighten up and let the smaller stacks kill eachother off, then when down to 2 or 3 left open up your game again, and move up the money ladder to the serious money.

Is that what you mean by Tournament life syndrome?

kebabfest · 06-12-2006 1:35pm

In terms of " tournament life syndrome " as you put it I dont like the expression much.
If you arent prepared to put your "tournament life" at risk when you feel the situation is favourable or necessary at any stage within a tournament then you probably go quite deep in a lot of tournaments as a miserable shortstack but never make any serious money.

Waylander · 06-12-2006 1:47pm

Jimbling I used to have a very similar attitude to yours when i first started posting on this forum. It took a while but eventually the posts by the likes of HJ and some other long term posters here at the time, who were alot more experienced players then me swung my opinion around. If I was near or in the money I would take tournament life into account, as one of several factors to be considered, but in the early to mid stages of a tournie I rarely would. I would make the percentage call, as in the long run it will pay off. I am now of the opinion that it is rarely correct to fold if you are getting favourable odds on the call.

Ste05 · 06-12-2006 1:50pm

Of course it should be considered, but only as part of weighing up a decision. There are other considerations that need to be taken into consideration, such as the payout structure, etc. and "tournament life" shouldn't be given undue prominence in your thought process. This is a problem alot of people have, they get blinded by their “tournament life” and make huge mistakes because of it, and basically have no hope of WINNING a tournament, but they might squeek into the last money spot more often or bubble after getting blinded out.

For example there are times when you have to call All-In with a draw, whereas some people may think that they don’t want to risk their “tournament life” and so fold and in so doing make a HUGE mistake.

As I say, it's just another consideration to be taken into account along with a load of others.

ntlbell · 06-12-2006 1:59pm

You really need to talk to Flipper.

He has a serious case of TLS.

His case is so bad it forces him to fold AA preflop.

A hand in poker has many variables

IMO the fact you could possibly be knocked out of the tournament should never be one of those variables.

This is not a very complex concept.

In fact it's such a simple one people have problems understanding it.

Hitman Actual · 06-12-2006 2:07pm

I think you're asking two different questions, and I'm not sure which one you count as tournament life:

Tourney life 1:
When you play a tournament, do you play an excessively tight game, passing up marginal edges in an attempt to survive as long as possible, hoping to just cash or, better still, hit some cards and make the big money.

or,

Tourney life 2:
When you're in the money stages of a tournament, does the payout structure and blind/stack-size ratio of the other opponents affect your thinking e.g. will you pass up an obviously +CEV situation (like the one posted) to ensure a better payout?

The thing is, I don't believe the 2nd situation has anything to do with tournament life. It's just another 'expected value' calculation that, if ignored, means that you could be losing real money.

The first situation is what players here have a problem with, I think (and I assume that's where cardshark's 'fish' comment comes from). And if we're talking about the structures of the local tournaments, or online, then I think cardshark is right: it's a fishy way to play. The players in question use two reasons for survival:

1. They pass up small edges as they will get a chance to get their money in as a bigger favourite later on, and

2. They are the best player at the table, and able to outplay their opponents. :rolleyes:

But the structures don't allow for any of this. You don't have time to wait for a better chance to get your money in, and you're not that good a player that you can afford to pass up a good chance. And the structure thing applies here as well: you're not outplaying anyone with the 15-20BB average stack that you have.

Bottom line is that, to do well in the local games (and online as well, I assume), you have to win your 55/45s, etc. Sitting around waiting is fishy.

Of course it could be different in an event like the WSOP ME, where you have time to wait, and you more than likey are better than a lot of the players around you. But I don't know enough to comment on that (maybe some of the lads who played there could comment).

I didn't answer the poll, btw, as I'm not sure what you're asking.

Ste05 · 06-12-2006 2:07pm

There are times where getting knocked out of a tournament should come into your mind, e.g. a recent example (I think in the Nicky Q&A) where you're on the FT of an EPT and everyone has 10 BB's and all go All-In before you, do you call with XX? I know it's not realistic, but there are times when your tournament life is a consideration. The real question is when and to what degree it should come in not IF it should ever be a consideration.

EDIT: Lenny just explained it very well.

cardshark202 · 06-12-2006 2:11pm

jimbling wrote:

these are the types of comments I am trying to avoid cardshark. Can you explain why you think this please?
And I can assure you that is not the case. I had a discussion with a 3 time bracelet winner about this at a table. He gave an example where he would fold KK Vs a known AK preflop. I didnt agree with him, but I am sure this guy is not a fish.

The guy who folded KK to AK preflop is actually quite retarded. Simple as that. The fact he has won three bracelets means he just got luckier than a lot of other retards.

Also the reason I have no time for this tournament life syndrome thing is because it causes people to horribly misplay hands in order to survive.

ntlbell · 06-12-2006 2:13pm

Ste05 wrote:

There are times where getting knocked out of a tournament should come into your mind, e.g. a recent example (I think in the Nicky Q&A) where you're on the FT of an EPT and everyone has 10 BB's and all go All-In before you, do you call with XX? I know it's not realistic, but there are times when your tournament life is a consideration. The real question is when and to what degree it should come in not IF it should ever be a consideration.

I think this is more what Lenny is discussing, is this TLS, or a good CEV calculation?

There was a hand in this years WSOP I'm a bit hazy on the details but I'm sure most people remember it.

Where the guy who came second place in the end folded I think an OESFD.

For basically 2 million dollars.

Is this TLS? or is it a CEV calculation?

jimbling · 06-12-2006 2:25pm

Ste05 wrote:

Of course it should be considered, but only as part of weighing up a decision. There are other considerations that need to be taken into consideration, such as the payout structure, etc. and "tournament life" shouldn't be given undue prominence in your thought process.

I agree completely with this. This is in fact my point. There are a huge number of factors that can and should effect a decision. Tournament life is just one of them. and NOT a dominant/prominent one... but still one to consider.

Ste05 · 06-12-2006 2:26pm

ntlbell wrote:

I think this is more what Lenny is discussing, is this TLS, or a good CEV calculation?

There was a hand in this years WSOP I'm a bit hazy on the details but I'm sure most people remember it.

Where the guy who came second place in the end folded I think an OESFD.

For basically 2 million dollars.

Is this TLS? or is it a CEV calculation?

Ye I agree, I think Lenny put it quite well and I'd agree TLS alone is worthless but is necessary as part of an EV calc.

jimbling · 06-12-2006 2:33pm

cardshark202 wrote:

The guy who folded KK to AK preflop is actually quite retarded. Simple as that. The fact he has won three bracelets means he just got luckier than a lot of other retards.

Also the reason I have no time for this tournament life syndrome thing is because it causes people to horribly misplay hands in order to survive.

i hate statements like this. The arrogance is unbelievable. Ye, and I am not just talking about you cardshark, go around calling people retarded for thinking in a different manner to you. I just don't understand why Intelligent people do this.

I do believe he was wrong in this instance, that KK Vs AK is just too big an edge to pass up under any circumstances... but it is the theme of the thought he/I was getting at... that was the most extreme example.

Realistically, people think in terms of tourment life all the time anyway. I mean, how many strategy guides, books have you read where it tells you the best way to play the later stage of a tourney is to pick on the middle stacks. This is because the small stacks will have huge ranges and the big stacks can do damage to your tournament life. This is a slightly different scenario (i.e. not exactly passing up an edge) but you are still considering Tournament life are you not??????

EDIT: I am rethinking bringing that into it. Although you are considering tournament life, it is in the manner of don't throw it away - not a good comparison at all... apologies

I just can't figure out how you can come with a statement like:
Person who worries about 'tournament life' = fish
its just ludicrous.

ntlbell · 06-12-2006 2:41pm

If TLS ever sways you to play a hand differently/wrongly/or not at all.

You're a fish.

jimbling · 06-12-2006 2:42pm

lenny_leonard wrote:

I think you're asking two different questions, and I'm not sure which one you count as tournament life:

Tourney life 1:
When you play a tournament, do you play an excessively tight game, passing up marginal edges in an attempt to survive as long as possible, hoping to just cash or, better still, hit some cards and make the big money.

or,

Tourney life 2:
When you're in the money stages of a tournament, does the payout structure and blind/stack-size ratio of the other opponents affect your thinking e.g. will you pass up an obviously +CEV situation (like the one posted) to ensure a better payout?

The thing is, I don't believe the 2nd situation has anything to do with tournament life. It's just another 'expected value' calculation that, if ignored, means that you could be losing real money.

The first situation is what players here have a problem with, I think (and I assume that's where cardshark's 'fish' comment comes from). And if we're talking about the structures of the local tournaments, or online, then I think cardshark is right: it's a fishy way to play. The players in question use two reasons for survival:

1. They pass up small edges as they will get a chance to get their money in as a bigger favourite later on, and

2. They are the best player at the table, and able to outplay their opponents. :rolleyes:

But the structures don't allow for any of this. You don't have time to wait for a better chance to get your money in, and you're not that good a player that you can afford to pass up a good chance. And the structure thing applies here as well: you're not outplaying anyone with the 15-20BB average stack that you have.

Bottom line is that, to do well in the local games (and online as well, I assume), you have to win your 55/45s, etc. Sitting around waiting is fishy.

Of course it could be different in an event like the WSOP ME, where you have time to wait, and you more than likey are better than a lot of the players around you. But I don't know enough to comment on that (maybe some of the lads who played there could comment).

I didn't answer the poll, btw, as I'm not sure what you're asking.

okay.. I think you've hit the nail on the proverbial head there lenny.
Obviously I am talking about tournament life 2, not 1.
Early on in tournaments I will take any edge at all. I tried to explain this in the other thread too. The weigh up comes in when the your percentage chance of doing well in the tournament comes into the equation. i.e. in early stages you have a minimal chance (therefore the tournament life calculation doesnt really come into play as its SOO low), because anything can happen throughout the tournament.
But, in later stages, where your % chance of winning the tournament has increased dramatically, you need to start thinking of the increase and decrease to that % chance of winning (and the level of winning when payout structure is in play) when working out the EV calculation of the hand in question. - it is only a part, and a small part at that.

kebabfest · 06-12-2006 2:46pm

Here lads. Jimling has simply opened a thread looking for some advice, not abuse.
Youse are simply going to make people think twice about posting.
Poker is all also all about opinion. If you havent got anything constructive to say on somebody elses line of topic then maybe it is better to keep it shut ?

jimbling · 06-12-2006 2:47pm

ntlbell wrote:

If TLS ever sways you to play a hand differently/wrongly/or not at all.

You're a fish.

you're heads up in the final of the WSOP. You are even stacks at the moment, but your opponent is a guy you know you can read very well. You can outplay him. You can spot when he is strong and spot when he is weak. It will be a cake walk.
Do you take a 55/45 all in preflop for the lot?

Do you think someone who would fold here is a fish?

ntlbell · 06-12-2006 2:48pm

jimbling wrote:

okay.. I think you've hit the nail on the proverbial head there lenny.
Obviously I am talking about tournament life 2, not 1.
Early on in tournaments I will take any edge at all. I tried to explain this in the other thread too. The weigh up comes in when the your percentage chance of doing well in the tournament comes into the equation. i.e. in early stages you have a minimal chance (therefore the tournament life calculation doesnt really come into play as its SOO low), because anything can happen throughout the tournament.
But, in later stages, where your % chance of winning the tournament has increased dramatically, you need to start thinking of the increase and decrease to that % chance of winning (and the level of winning when payout structure is in play) when working out the EV calculation of the hand in question. - it is only a part, and a small part at that.

To be Frank, if I may.

I don't think you understand fully yourself what you want to discuss at all.

jimbling · 06-12-2006 2:57pm

ntlbell wrote:

To be Frank, if I may.

I don't think you understand fully yourself what you want to discuss at all.

you may. why do you think that?

As I said in the last thread. I am not really a theorist in regards poker. I am certainly not a mathematician. I just see a hole in the reasoning of some of the posts around the place. I put forward the tournament life been a consideration in some posts and was shot down. What I want to talk about is that it should be a consideration - which some are doing.

That last post was an attempt to portray the % changes in tournament life importance - perhaps I am doing so all wrong... but what I would like is to see this debate, which it is doing really - discover what the factors really are and how can we learn to calculate them properly. What is the real importance.

ntlbell · 06-12-2006 3:00pm

jimbling wrote:

you're heads up in the final of the WSOP. You are even stacks at the moment, but your opponent is a guy you know you can read very well. You can outplay him. You can spot when he is strong and spot when he is weak. It will be a cake walk.
Do you take a 55/45 all in preflop for the lot?

Do you think someone who would fold here is a fish?

Nice realistic situation, I love these.

I would have the chips in quicker than you could say "las vegas hooker"

With obviously millions all ready in my pocket and the women in vegas awaiting to be done by an Irish WSOP final tablist.

TLS would be the last thing on my mind.

Do you think having the hooker as a factor in the call is bad?

Next question.

Ste05 · 06-12-2006 3:09pm

I think it's just the need to get rid of the tag line "Tournament Life". Because it's not relevant.

What you should really be trying to find out about, is things like CEV, $EV calculations.

In your example above of the 45/55 edge and possibility of passing it up, the factors to consider would be things like the structure of the HU battle, i.e. is there room for maneouvre (sp?) is it deep enough that you can guarantee to engineer better spots in the near future, is it deep enough that you can get away from a move gone bad, etc.

Just to say you can read him and can outplay him or that you're a better player is not enough, there may not be any more opportunities to exercise this increased skill level other then to have the balls to take this 10% edge now? (55-45).

I'm not sure how well I'm explaining this, I always have trouble articulating these points, but if you know what I'm getting at, basically the thought that doesn't/ shouldn't come into your mind here is: "well if I lose this I'm out".

I have a feeling Lenny will have a better explanation soon, as he seems to be pwning this thread.

jimbling · 06-12-2006 3:12pm

ntlbell wrote:

Nice realistic situation, I love these.

I would have the chips in quicker than you could say "las vegas hooker"

With obviously millions all ready in my pocket and the women in vegas awaiting to be done by an Irish WSOP final tablist.

TLS would be the last thing on my mind.

Do you think having the hooker as a factor in the call is bad?

Next question.

ntl, the situation doesnt need to be realistic. people need to think a bit more abstractly around here.

And of course.... the hooker is always a factor

carrigeen · 06-12-2006 3:16pm

ntlbell wrote:

If TLS ever sways you to play a hand differently/wrongly/or not at all.

You're a fish.

dont know what if he turned over 10 j suited and you had a k giving you whatever edge 60/40 or so , it still may be the correct move to fold given the small stack and possible payout

stack sizes surely have to influence your play at the business end of tournament.

I recently folded a superior hand on the money bubble to another large stack in a large tourny a hand i definetely wouldnt have folded earlier (in the tourny) to the same player.

marius · 06-12-2006 3:20pm

ntlbell wrote:

If TLS ever sways you to play a hand differently/wrongly/or not at all.

You're a fish.

Do you play the early rounds of a rebuy tourney the exact same way you play a freeze out?

ntlbell · 06-12-2006 3:20pm

Ste05 wrote:

I think it's just the need to get rid of the tag line "Tournament Life". Because it's not relevant.

This is what's causing the problem.

Tournament Life Syndrome - Part 1 (IF) AND 2 (when, where, how etc)

Tournament Life Should be considered when making a decision in tournament poker. 66 votes

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