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Ahern demands apology from the GRA

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    #32
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    All members of our democracy are entitled to their own point of view, with exectpion of the upholders of the law of the state.

    Hat is their only duty, to uphold the law of the state in an unbiased manner.
    Note the word unbiased.

    If the upholders of the law in a state, start it interfer with the politics of that state, it undermines the democracy of the state.

    There are countless other groups that can express the view that the GRA did, but they are the one group in the state that shouldn't.

    It amazes me that they do not know this. Bu this is the same group that attempted to ballot their members for strike action not long ago, without realising that it was completly against the law.
    It actually had to be pointed out to them.


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    #33
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Floppybits,

    The entire country are entitled to speak up.
    The Guards are the only group that are not.

    For stating Godwins law I shouldn't really reply but here goes.

    there are many countries in the world from your history lessons that the military and police interfered with the politics of those states.
    They ended up as military dictatorships.

    This is why the police force must remain impartial.
    Again, I can't believe we are even having this debate.


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    #34
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,545 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    danman wrote: »
    Floppybits,

    The entire country are entitled to speak up.
    The Guards are the only group that are not.

    So when you say the entire country are entitled to speak are guards not allowed to voice their opinion individually. Also if Guards cant have anything to do with politics then why do they have a vote at election time? Surely by your reckoning once you join the guards you give up your right vote, is this what you are saying?


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    #35
    Rosahane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭Rosahane


    I think that the GRA do owe the country an apology!

    Not for what they said, which was true. But for their lack of success in jailing a few more of Ahern's corrupt FF buddies:D


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    #36
    reprazant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭reprazant


    Floppybits wrote: »
    So when you say the entire country are entitled to speak are guards not allowed to voice their opinion individually. Also if Guards cant have anything to do with politics then why do they have a vote at election time? Surely by your reckoning once you join the guards you give up your right vote, is this what you are saying?

    No, that is not what he is saying.

    Outside of work, they can have any, and voice any political opinions (as long as they are legal really).

    Once they put on their uniform, they have to be apolitical.


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    #37
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    The GRA isn't individual Guards, they represent the largest body of Gardai in this country.

    Individuals can say what they want.
    As a group, the Guards cannot express opinion.

    Stop trying to pick ridiculous holes in one of the most basic principles of a democratic society.
    Take off the FF hating blinkers and see it as it is.


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    #38
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Danman you mentioned the word unbiased as in they cannot take sides. What was in that speech was truthful, you admitted as much yourself. So you can tell the truth and remain unbiased. In fact not mentioning obvious truths would show a bias towards the government. Are judges unbiased when they repeat facts of a case?


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    #39
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Once they mentioned any party, it became unbiased.

    They also mentioned Sean Fitz, who is under investigation.
    That was another stupid thing to talk about.


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    #40
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    reprazant wrote: »
    No, that is not what he is saying.

    Outside of work, they can have any, and voice any political opinions (as long as they are legal really).

    Once they put on their uniform, they have to be apolitical.

    Actually they can't express political opinion out of uniform. They are prohibited from being involved in any political party on or off duty.
    danman wrote: »
    Yes, it's as simple as that. You got in in one.
    Any other group can say whatever they like, the Guards are a different case entirely.

    If FF bring in a law that makes redheads with glasses illegal, it not the police forces right to question that law. They only uphold the law and arrest those red headed glasses wearers who are flounting this law.

    Are soldiers under the same prohibition? I would have thought their loyalty would be more critical.
    danman wrote: »
    Once they mentioned any party, it became unbiased.

    They also mentioned Sean Fitz, who is under investigation.
    That was another stupid thing to talk about.

    Do you not think it is beneficial for the people to know how the Gardaí are feeling about their employer?

    While I accept that gardaí are required to uphold the law, do they not have an overiding moral responsability to the people and also to the constitution?


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    #41
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    k_mac wrote: »
    Actually they can't express political opinion out of uniform. They are prohibited from being involved in any political party on or off duty.



    Are soldiers under the same prohibition? I would have thought their loyalty would be more critical.



    Do you not think it is beneficial for the people to know how the Gardaí are feeling about their employer?

    While I accept that gardaí are required to uphold the law, do they not have an overiding moral responsability to the people and also to the constitution?


    I would assume that defence forces would be in a similar situation.
    Did every US soldier agree about the invasion on Iraq? Or did they have to follow their orders to invade?

    What individual Guards think of their employer is their own concern, but as a group, they have no right to express any political views.


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I certainly didn't want Anglo, NAMA or even FF, or overpriced houses and crap infrastructure or loads of "green" taxes and disincentives.....

    So do you want to rethink that ?

    You're assuming that I did want these things, or that I ever voted for FF. The fact is that the majority of people in this state looked at the candidates and said the FF guy was the best man for the job - I want you to run this country.

    The fact of the matter is that anyone in government would have acted in a similar fashion, because this is what people wanted. I talked to lots of people about how unsustainable the economy was becoming in 2005/2006 when it was blatantly apparent that this fiasco couldn't continue indefinitely, and not one person young or old wanted to listen to me - they dismissed me out of hand.

    The fact is that we all had a part to play in this. I don't buy that the problem was the banks lending money recklessly - yes, it was part of the problem, but this money was lent to fúcking adults who are supposed to have a bit of cop on. You can't blame FF for overpriced houses, they were overpriced because of US and the value we were putting on crap houses.
    And along with this came the downfall of the banks.

    It's not one group's fault. And that's a fact.



    Anyway I think danman has explained why the Gardai are supposed to be neutral at all times. If you can't grasp that then...there's no hope for us.


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    #43
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    danman wrote: »
    liam, take the blinkered hatred of FF glasses off for one minute.

    I don't have any.

    Any opinion of FF is based 100% on their actions.

    And I can see your grey area, however I will defend the rights of a Garda to tell the truth.

    All that, however, is irrelevant. Ahern is demanding an apology which very few people want because he feels put out, and that is what the thread is about.

    If he was consistent and demanded an apology from his namesake, and O'Donoghue, and O'Dea and the rest of his cronies, and apologised for his party's actions then I would be less inclined to view him as a hypocrite.


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I don't have any.

    Any opinion of FF is based 100% on their actions.

    And I can see your grey area, however I will defend the rights of a Garda to tell the truth.

    All that, however, is irrelevant. Ahern is demanding an apology which very few people want because he feels put out, and that is what the thread is about.

    If he was consistent and demanded an apology from his namesake, and O'Donoghue, and O'Dea and the rest of his cronies, and apologised for his party's actions then I would be less inclined to view him as a hypocrite.

    By that logic, if FF were to pass pay rises for Gardai then you would welcome the Gardai coming out and saying that FF are the best thing since sliced bread. In fact, they would be wanting FF to win the next election due to this massive BRIBE - Gardai look after the polling boxes you know.

    Would you feel comfortable with this situation?


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    #45
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    I talked to lots of people about how unsustainable the economy was becoming in 2005/2006 when it was blatantly apparent that this fiasco couldn't continue indefinitely, and not one person young or old wanted to listen to me - they dismissed me out of hand.

    If that is the case, then there were two of us in the same boat.

    UNFORTUNATELY for your argument, there were more than us mentioning it, and there were people telling Bertie Ahern (the then Taoiseach) and Brian Cowen (the then Minister for Finance) the same thing, and THEY dismissed it out of hand.

    THAT is where their culpability lies - if they had acted then we would have had the fabled "soft landing"....but they didn't bother their arse because the view from cloud cuckoo land was too enriching for their cronies.

    * well, that and the disastrous attempts to "handle" it via NAMA and Anglo to the detriment of every ounce of ethics, common sense and fairness.


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    #46
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    By that logic, if FF were to pass pay rises for Gardai then you would welcome the Gardai coming out and saying that FF are the best thing since sliced bread. In fact, they would be wanting FF to win the next election due to this massive BRIBE - Gardai look after the polling boxes you know.

    Would you feel comfortable with this situation?

    That is not a valid converse, because the only beneficiaries would be the Gardai themselves.

    Any comments passed related to how FF have shafted the entire country.


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    #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    That is not a valid converse, because the only beneficiaries would be the Gardai themselves.

    Any comments passed related to how FF have shafted the entire country.

    So basically it's all good because the Gardai are holding your point of view at the moment? What about the 25% of FF supporters (idiots they may be); should the upholders of the laws of the state be allowed to present their views which are conflicting to those of 25% of the population? Do you not see a conflict here?

    I seriously don't understand how you cannot grasp why this is wrong.


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    #48
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    And I can see your grey area, however I will defend the rights of a Garda to tell the truth.

    I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Liam and leave it at that.
    I think there are enough unions, opposition parties and various other groups in this country to vent the views that was expressed.

    It isn't too much to ask for one particular group to remain impartial to the politics of our state.

    Social commentry isn't within the remit of the GRA.


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    #49
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    If the Gardaí can decide who to support, why not the Army? A coup is just what we need.;)


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    #50
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    So basically it's all good because the Gardai are holding your point of view at the moment? What about the 25% of FF supporters (idiots they may be); should the upholders of the laws of the state be allowed to present their views which are conflicting to those of 25% of the population? Do you not see a conflict here?

    At no stage did I say that, so please avoid putting words in my mouth when you are incapable of getting it right.

    What I said was that the Gardai are not the only ones being affected....the entire country is; you had mentioned bribery where the Gardai would benefit.

    Will the 25% of FF supporters be angry ? Probably. But the fact that we are all suffering because of the 25% of FF supporters is irrelevant, because they are suffering too, making the comments made by the Gardai all-compassing and related to the greater good.

    Anyway, like I said I can see there being a potential issue with the GRA having an opinion, and if an above-reproach legal person pointed it out, then fair enough.

    I just think that it is far too ironic and laughable that Ahern demanded an apology "on behalf of the Irish people". He doesn't - and has never - spoken for me.


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    #51
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    danman wrote: »
    Social commentry isn't within the remit of the GRA.

    Treason isn't within the remit of the Goverment, either.


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