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Ahern demands apology from the GRA

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Poly wrote: »
    “The Justice Minister also demanded an apology for the Irish people”]

    I don’t really need an apology from the GRA, however, I would like an apology from FF!
    FF and their cronies have destroyed this country.

    +1, and that's precisely what I was going to type based on the thread title.

    It's Ahern & Co that should be apologising to the GRA and the rest of us.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    eh no. FF had a little help in destroying the country - from the public service wanting massive pay rises for nothing, from developers building houses that nobody wanted, from people on crap wages who bought massively overpriced houses they couldn't afford, from people who bought many houses (like some gardai *cough*), from the banks, from the people who ran up huge debts on frivolous things like new cars and holidays.

    If anyone thinks it's right for the PROTECTORS of the laws of this country to be threatening corruption etc if they don't get their way, then I'm sorry but you are a fúcking tool. The Gardai are most certainly not supposed to go anywhere near politics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    If anyone thinks it's right for the PROTECTORS of the laws of this country to be threatening corruption etc

    Do you think it's OK for the MAKERS to actually engage in corruption ?
    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    then I'm sorry but you are a fúcking tool.

    :rolleyes:
    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    The Gardai are most certainly not supposed to go anywhere near politics.

    The Gardai are meant to deal in facts and the truth, which the speech was.

    Anyway, the thread is specifically about the irony of Ahern demanding an apology on behalf of the Irish people, when his bunch of leeches haven't even acknowledged the damage they have done.

    It goes to show that Ahern and his party don't have a clue what real people are thinking, because - your concerns aside (and there is some validity in them) - most people would have agreed with the accusations in the speech, if not with the implied threat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Rosahane


    It's Ahern who should apologise to the Irish people:mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,736 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Damn right Ahern and his party should apologise to the people for what they have done to the country. Also remember Ahern behaviour when wee willie was lying through his teeth in the dail to save is ass. No it is Ahern who needs to apologise. As for the GRA, fair play to them for saying what is the truth, if only more people would maybe just maybe we might get some change for good in this country.

    Ugh I am just getting more and more at FF and their carry on. if I could have my way they would be marched out of the dail in sack cloth and ashes for what they have done.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    eh no. FF had a little help in destroying the country - from the public service wanting massive pay rises for nothing,

    The government gave this with benchmarking
    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    from developers building houses that nobody wanted,

    The government incentivised this and land was rezoned and planning permission given
    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    from people on crap wages who bought massively overpriced houses they couldn't afford,

    The government encouraged this and failed to regulate lenders
    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    from people who bought many houses (like some gardai *cough*), from the banks,

    The government gave tax breaks for this again encouraging this behaviour
    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    from the people who ran up huge debts on frivolous things like new cars and holidays.

    These people are resppndible for their personal debts. The government allowed wreckless lending and borrowing develop into a bubble. People are now responsible for the debts of others as well as their own due to the guaranteeing of anglo and nationalisation of private wrongdoings.
    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    If anyone thinks it's right for the PROTECTORS of the laws of this country to be threatening corruption etc if they don't get their way, then I'm sorry but you are a fúcking tool. The Gardai are most certainly not supposed to go anywhere near politics.

    The gardai are protectors of the law and must respect the institutions of the state. They have no obligation to protect or respect FF, in fact highlighting their treasonous acts should be within their remit. All the posters who want an apology from FF are right, Dermot Ahern has it the erong way round


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The government gave the people what they wanted. The Gardai should keep their mouths shut.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭bryaner


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    eh no. FF had a little help in destroying the country - from the public service wanting massive pay rises for nothing, from developers building houses that nobody wanted, from people on crap wages who bought massively overpriced houses they couldn't afford, from people who bought many houses (like some gardai *cough*), from the banks, from the people who ran up huge debts on frivolous things like new cars and holidays.

    If anyone thinks it's right for the PROTECTORS of the laws of this country to be threatening corruption etc if they don't get their way, then I'm sorry but you are a fúcking tool. The Gardai are most certainly not supposed to go anywhere near politics.

    There's always one!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Ahern and the GRA deserve each other; question is, do the Public deserve either the GRA or Ahern ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭mickstupp


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    The Gardai are most certainly not supposed to go anywhere near politics.
    Why not? Genuine question, it's something I don't understand.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    mickstupp wrote: »
    Why not? Genuine question, it's something I don't understand.

    We live in a sovereign democratic republic, the Gardai are there to uphold the laws which are passed by democratically elected governments - and that's it. Can you honestly see no problem with the upholders of the law interfering in politics?

    There's always one!

    One what? Sensible person?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭mickstupp


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    We live in a sovereign democratic republic, the Gardai are there to uphold the laws which are passed by democratically elected governments - and that's it. Can you honestly see no problem with the upholders of the law interfering in politics?
    I don't quite see why they're not entitled to a political view. But then again, I've honestly never given it any thought, so I'm getting the impression there's something I'm missing here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    The government gave the people what they wanted.

    Yep and this is called bad governance so we are back to the government being to blame.

    Unfortunately theres always more than one, and they keep voting in these sheisters


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Poly wrote: »
    “The Justice Minister also demanded an apology for the Irish people”

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-commissioner-to-meet-gra-today-455869.html#ixzz0mZKePrAy

    I don’t really need an apology from the GRA, however, I would like an apology from FF!
    FF and their cronies have destroyed this country.
    Just out of curiosity, why did you not just post a thread looking for an apology from Ahern/FF ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    I'll ask the same question I asked in the last thread that no one answered.

    Do you think a police force should interfer with the politics of a state?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    anymore wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, why did you not just post a thread looking for an apology from Ahern/FF ?

    Well this way it shows how out pf touch with reality FF are. The party and their members/supporters love playing the victim card, thinking they are being punished and abused for no good reason by an uneducated public. The old lines of denial 'of course you want us gone, you're ABFF'. Demanding an apology for legitimate, even if strong, criticism while denying their own blame shows their arrogance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    danman wrote: »
    I'll ask the same question I asked in the last thread that no one answered.

    Do you think a police force should interfer with the politics of a state?

    Can airing members unhappiness be considered interference? Its not like they are suggesting policy or planning a coup


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Can airing members unhappiness be considered interference? Its not like they are suggesting policy or planning a coup

    They can air their greivencess quite easily without the sort of statement they made.
    They should always appear to be apolitical.

    The statement released was as far from apolitical as you you can get.
    It doesn't matter which party the statement was addressed towards, it shouldn't have been made.

    They might have spoken the truth, but that doesn't mean that THEY should have said it.

    If no one on this forum can understand this, you need to take a step back and think about it for a moment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    The government gave the people what they wanted. The Gardai should keep their mouths shut.

    I certainly didn't want Anglo, NAMA or even FF, or overpriced houses and crap infrastructure or loads of "green" taxes and disincentives.....

    So do you want to rethink that ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    danman wrote: »
    They might have spoken the truth

    They didn't actually, because the speech was never made because Ahern didn't want to hear the truth.
    danman wrote: »
    .....but that doesn't mean that THEY should have said it.

    Who do you reckon should have said it ? And considering that Ahern refused to listen, who do you think could say it and have FF actually listen and take it on board ?
    danman wrote: »
    If no one on this forum can understand this, you need to take a step back and think about it for a moment.

    I've stepped back, and all I can see is that someone finally offered the truth and FF refused to listen, and they've been exposed.

    Fine by me.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    GRA should cast a vote of No Confidence in Ahern. F**k him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    They didn't actually, because the speech was never made because Ahern didn't want to hear the truth.



    Who do you reckon should have said it ? And considering that Ahern refused to listen, who do you think could say it and have FF actually listen and take it on board ?



    I've stepped back, and all I can see is that someone finally offered the truth and FF refused to listen, and they've been exposed.

    Fine by me.

    liam, take the blinkered hatred of FF glasses off for one minute.

    They released the speech prior to giving it, which is why Aherne didn't show up and the speech wasn't made. But it was in the public domain once it was released.

    They should never have said it. Any union or any other group can say this, but not the police force of the state. Is that so hard to understand.

    They are not a union, for obvious reasons.

    A police force should not interfer with the politics of a state.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Please explain how its interference, and do you think the gardai should remain mute regardless of what a government does, either to them or the country?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Please explain how its interference, and do you think the gardai should remain mute regardless of what a government does, either to them or the country?

    Yes, it's as simple as that. You got in in one.
    Any other group can say whatever they like, the Guards are a different case entirely.

    If FF bring in a law that makes redheads with glasses illegal, it not the police forces right to question that law. They only uphold the law and arrest those red headed glasses wearers who are flounting this law.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭mickstupp


    danman wrote: »
    If FF bring in a law that makes redheads with glasses illegal, it not the police forces right to question that law. They only uphold the law and arrest those red headed glasses wearers who are flounting this law.
    That kind of sounds like it's getting towards "Hey I was only following orders" territory. Government brings in a law, guards follow the law, no matter what? They're not allowed to have a view on the ethical ramifications of a law, or indeed the actions of law makers? They should just shut up and follow orders? I think I disagree.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    So the gardai are just following orders? They couldnt even object to Godwins law?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    mickstupp wrote: »
    That kind of sounds like it's getting towards "Hey I was only following orders" territory. Government brings in a law, guards follow the law, no matter what? They're not allowed to have a view on the ethical ramifications of a law, or indeed the actions of law makers? They should just shut up and follow orders? I think I disagree.

    that is their duty.
    My God, I can't even believe we're having this debate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    danman wrote: »
    that is their duty.
    My God, I can't even believe we're having this debate.

    Wow in that case im amazed the government hasnt made it illegal to support the opposition. It would at least give them a fighting chance come next election although rounding up 75% of the population would be difficult and the gardai would want overtime but who are they to complain


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭mickstupp


    danman wrote: »
    that is their duty.
    My God, I can't even believe we're having this debate.
    I apologise. I'm not trying to be obtuse, I genuinely don't grasp your point of view. I've heard that it's their duty to not question the law, that they shouldn't be allowed interfere in politics, or indeed have a public opinion on political matters, but I don't understand the why of it. It doesn't make any sense to me that members of a democracy should not be permitted to question or comment on those in charge. It baffles my noggin.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,736 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    danman wrote: »
    Yes, it's as simple as that. You got in in one.
    Any other group can say whatever they like, the Guards are a different case entirely.

    If FF bring in a law that makes redheads with glasses illegal, it not the police forces right to question that law. They only uphold the law and arrest those red headed glasses wearers who are flounting this law.

    I remember from my history classes that something like this did happen around the 1930's or so in a place called Germany, basically no one in authority questioned the actions of the ruling party and this led to a war and death of millions and millions of people.

    Danman, No the Gardai should not just put up and shut up, what was in that speech was the truth like it or not and it is about time people did stand up and question the actions of the leading party in Government.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    All members of our democracy are entitled to their own point of view, with exectpion of the upholders of the law of the state.

    Hat is their only duty, to uphold the law of the state in an unbiased manner.
    Note the word unbiased.

    If the upholders of the law in a state, start it interfer with the politics of that state, it undermines the democracy of the state.

    There are countless other groups that can express the view that the GRA did, but they are the one group in the state that shouldn't.

    It amazes me that they do not know this. Bu this is the same group that attempted to ballot their members for strike action not long ago, without realising that it was completly against the law.
    It actually had to be pointed out to them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Floppybits,

    The entire country are entitled to speak up.
    The Guards are the only group that are not.

    For stating Godwins law I shouldn't really reply but here goes.

    there are many countries in the world from your history lessons that the military and police interfered with the politics of those states.
    They ended up as military dictatorships.

    This is why the police force must remain impartial.
    Again, I can't believe we are even having this debate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,736 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    danman wrote: »
    Floppybits,

    The entire country are entitled to speak up.
    The Guards are the only group that are not.

    So when you say the entire country are entitled to speak are guards not allowed to voice their opinion individually. Also if Guards cant have anything to do with politics then why do they have a vote at election time? Surely by your reckoning once you join the guards you give up your right vote, is this what you are saying?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Rosahane


    I think that the GRA do owe the country an apology!

    Not for what they said, which was true. But for their lack of success in jailing a few more of Ahern's corrupt FF buddies:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭reprazant


    Floppybits wrote: »
    So when you say the entire country are entitled to speak are guards not allowed to voice their opinion individually. Also if Guards cant have anything to do with politics then why do they have a vote at election time? Surely by your reckoning once you join the guards you give up your right vote, is this what you are saying?

    No, that is not what he is saying.

    Outside of work, they can have any, and voice any political opinions (as long as they are legal really).

    Once they put on their uniform, they have to be apolitical.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    The GRA isn't individual Guards, they represent the largest body of Gardai in this country.

    Individuals can say what they want.
    As a group, the Guards cannot express opinion.

    Stop trying to pick ridiculous holes in one of the most basic principles of a democratic society.
    Take off the FF hating blinkers and see it as it is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Danman you mentioned the word unbiased as in they cannot take sides. What was in that speech was truthful, you admitted as much yourself. So you can tell the truth and remain unbiased. In fact not mentioning obvious truths would show a bias towards the government. Are judges unbiased when they repeat facts of a case?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Once they mentioned any party, it became unbiased.

    They also mentioned Sean Fitz, who is under investigation.
    That was another stupid thing to talk about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    reprazant wrote: »
    No, that is not what he is saying.

    Outside of work, they can have any, and voice any political opinions (as long as they are legal really).

    Once they put on their uniform, they have to be apolitical.

    Actually they can't express political opinion out of uniform. They are prohibited from being involved in any political party on or off duty.
    danman wrote: »
    Yes, it's as simple as that. You got in in one.
    Any other group can say whatever they like, the Guards are a different case entirely.

    If FF bring in a law that makes redheads with glasses illegal, it not the police forces right to question that law. They only uphold the law and arrest those red headed glasses wearers who are flounting this law.

    Are soldiers under the same prohibition? I would have thought their loyalty would be more critical.
    danman wrote: »
    Once they mentioned any party, it became unbiased.

    They also mentioned Sean Fitz, who is under investigation.
    That was another stupid thing to talk about.

    Do you not think it is beneficial for the people to know how the Gardaí are feeling about their employer?

    While I accept that gardaí are required to uphold the law, do they not have an overiding moral responsability to the people and also to the constitution?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    k_mac wrote: »
    Actually they can't express political opinion out of uniform. They are prohibited from being involved in any political party on or off duty.



    Are soldiers under the same prohibition? I would have thought their loyalty would be more critical.



    Do you not think it is beneficial for the people to know how the Gardaí are feeling about their employer?

    While I accept that gardaí are required to uphold the law, do they not have an overiding moral responsability to the people and also to the constitution?


    I would assume that defence forces would be in a similar situation.
    Did every US soldier agree about the invasion on Iraq? Or did they have to follow their orders to invade?

    What individual Guards think of their employer is their own concern, but as a group, they have no right to express any political views.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I certainly didn't want Anglo, NAMA or even FF, or overpriced houses and crap infrastructure or loads of "green" taxes and disincentives.....

    So do you want to rethink that ?

    You're assuming that I did want these things, or that I ever voted for FF. The fact is that the majority of people in this state looked at the candidates and said the FF guy was the best man for the job - I want you to run this country.

    The fact of the matter is that anyone in government would have acted in a similar fashion, because this is what people wanted. I talked to lots of people about how unsustainable the economy was becoming in 2005/2006 when it was blatantly apparent that this fiasco couldn't continue indefinitely, and not one person young or old wanted to listen to me - they dismissed me out of hand.

    The fact is that we all had a part to play in this. I don't buy that the problem was the banks lending money recklessly - yes, it was part of the problem, but this money was lent to fúcking adults who are supposed to have a bit of cop on. You can't blame FF for overpriced houses, they were overpriced because of US and the value we were putting on crap houses.
    And along with this came the downfall of the banks.

    It's not one group's fault. And that's a fact.



    Anyway I think danman has explained why the Gardai are supposed to be neutral at all times. If you can't grasp that then...there's no hope for us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    danman wrote: »
    liam, take the blinkered hatred of FF glasses off for one minute.

    I don't have any.

    Any opinion of FF is based 100% on their actions.

    And I can see your grey area, however I will defend the rights of a Garda to tell the truth.

    All that, however, is irrelevant. Ahern is demanding an apology which very few people want because he feels put out, and that is what the thread is about.

    If he was consistent and demanded an apology from his namesake, and O'Donoghue, and O'Dea and the rest of his cronies, and apologised for his party's actions then I would be less inclined to view him as a hypocrite.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I don't have any.

    Any opinion of FF is based 100% on their actions.

    And I can see your grey area, however I will defend the rights of a Garda to tell the truth.

    All that, however, is irrelevant. Ahern is demanding an apology which very few people want because he feels put out, and that is what the thread is about.

    If he was consistent and demanded an apology from his namesake, and O'Donoghue, and O'Dea and the rest of his cronies, and apologised for his party's actions then I would be less inclined to view him as a hypocrite.

    By that logic, if FF were to pass pay rises for Gardai then you would welcome the Gardai coming out and saying that FF are the best thing since sliced bread. In fact, they would be wanting FF to win the next election due to this massive BRIBE - Gardai look after the polling boxes you know.

    Would you feel comfortable with this situation?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    I talked to lots of people about how unsustainable the economy was becoming in 2005/2006 when it was blatantly apparent that this fiasco couldn't continue indefinitely, and not one person young or old wanted to listen to me - they dismissed me out of hand.

    If that is the case, then there were two of us in the same boat.

    UNFORTUNATELY for your argument, there were more than us mentioning it, and there were people telling Bertie Ahern (the then Taoiseach) and Brian Cowen (the then Minister for Finance) the same thing, and THEY dismissed it out of hand.

    THAT is where their culpability lies - if they had acted then we would have had the fabled "soft landing"....but they didn't bother their arse because the view from cloud cuckoo land was too enriching for their cronies.

    * well, that and the disastrous attempts to "handle" it via NAMA and Anglo to the detriment of every ounce of ethics, common sense and fairness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    By that logic, if FF were to pass pay rises for Gardai then you would welcome the Gardai coming out and saying that FF are the best thing since sliced bread. In fact, they would be wanting FF to win the next election due to this massive BRIBE - Gardai look after the polling boxes you know.

    Would you feel comfortable with this situation?

    That is not a valid converse, because the only beneficiaries would be the Gardai themselves.

    Any comments passed related to how FF have shafted the entire country.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    That is not a valid converse, because the only beneficiaries would be the Gardai themselves.

    Any comments passed related to how FF have shafted the entire country.

    So basically it's all good because the Gardai are holding your point of view at the moment? What about the 25% of FF supporters (idiots they may be); should the upholders of the laws of the state be allowed to present their views which are conflicting to those of 25% of the population? Do you not see a conflict here?

    I seriously don't understand how you cannot grasp why this is wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    And I can see your grey area, however I will defend the rights of a Garda to tell the truth.

    I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Liam and leave it at that.
    I think there are enough unions, opposition parties and various other groups in this country to vent the views that was expressed.

    It isn't too much to ask for one particular group to remain impartial to the politics of our state.

    Social commentry isn't within the remit of the GRA.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    If the Gardaí can decide who to support, why not the Army? A coup is just what we need.;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    So basically it's all good because the Gardai are holding your point of view at the moment? What about the 25% of FF supporters (idiots they may be); should the upholders of the laws of the state be allowed to present their views which are conflicting to those of 25% of the population? Do you not see a conflict here?

    At no stage did I say that, so please avoid putting words in my mouth when you are incapable of getting it right.

    What I said was that the Gardai are not the only ones being affected....the entire country is; you had mentioned bribery where the Gardai would benefit.

    Will the 25% of FF supporters be angry ? Probably. But the fact that we are all suffering because of the 25% of FF supporters is irrelevant, because they are suffering too, making the comments made by the Gardai all-compassing and related to the greater good.

    Anyway, like I said I can see there being a potential issue with the GRA having an opinion, and if an above-reproach legal person pointed it out, then fair enough.

    I just think that it is far too ironic and laughable that Ahern demanded an apology "on behalf of the Irish people". He doesn't - and has never - spoken for me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    danman wrote: »
    Social commentry isn't within the remit of the GRA.

    Treason isn't within the remit of the Goverment, either.


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