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*** Proposed New Junior Cert. **Read Mod Warning Post #1 Before Posting**

  • 02-03-2015 10:25pm
    #1
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭




    Fresh new thread. (Old one HERE )

    For those new to this debate please bare in mind that some arguments have moved on and may end up in rabbit-holing or rehashing an old argument (mods may give a gentle reminder so please accept it with courtesy).

    A few Rules:
    1. Refrain from comparing to other types of education LCA,LCVP,JCSP,FE,FETAC,FAS,3rd Level etc. (See last warning in previous thread for reasons HERE). Comparing to what other countries do with this age group is acceptable, but remember that there are a lot of nuances to a 'foreign education system'.
    2. Posts attacking another poster will be deleted or heavily edited (a cue is to look for the word 'you' in your addressing of the point).
    3. Posts debating the substance of a point will stand a better chance of moving on the discussion.
    4. Do not declare publicly that another member is going on your ignore list (or words to that effect). The best way is to disengage and not respond, this is your choice and the best way to quell the flames.
    5. Please be aware that some topics (e.g. the new JC science syllabus) have been discussed at length on this forum so; A) Do a boards search/google search B) Be cognisant that everybody isn't up to speed, so maybe post a link to the past thread or give a brief synopsis.
    6. Understandably, an opposing view is necessary for debate and learning. Much of the views that I disagree with crop up here so I think it's necessary to explore the rebuttals and other issues involved as we regularly meet similar opinions in the staff room or on the street (no matter what side of the fence you're on!). Also I've changed my own views a few times as a consequence.
    7. Remember 'Continuous Assessment' is a loaded term (we continuously assess every day probably without even realising it). Stick to the Travers/JCSA Framework version.
    8. Also make a distinction between school based certification and state certification as this to my mind is the crux of the Travers offering. For now, It is taken as a given that the unions are opposing any school based assessment for state certification (I think!).
    9. For non-teachers (you are welcome). Certain topics may be disallowed as they have been discussed ad-nauseum (public vs' private, pay related performance, eliminating bad teachers etc.)
    10. ASTI vs. TUI is a very emotive issue (they have some 'history' between them!). If it goes too far then it may be curtailed.




    To get back on track... the state of play at the moment is this...


    Department Position
    According to Jan O' Sullivan all teachers must now follow the revised Travers document.
    Click here for PDF
    Yellow highlighter is from the 1st Travers document and is now OUT.
    Red highlighter represents new proposals and is IN.
    Union Position
    Unions say the revised document forms the basis for further negotiation and they are not accepting this document. Teachers are being instructed not to co-operate with the department.




    Do not respond to this warning on-thread.

    Thanks

    Mod


«13456789

Comments

  • #2
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Jan is an idiot. Just the general arrogance of saying 'well I'm forcing it through whether you like it or not':mad::mad::mad:

    I notice in that latest incarnation external moderation has been scrapped in place of some committee thing. It's just a shambles. I really hope we just go on strike again and make her engage.


  • #3
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭History Queen


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Jan is an idiot. Just the general arrogance of saying 'well I'm forcing it through whether you like it or not':mad::mad::mad:

    I notice in that latest incarnation external moderation has been scrapped in place of some committee thing. It's just a shambles. I really hope we just go on strike again and make her engage.

    Agreed. I hope that our unions will hold tough until a resolution is found. Saying that the longer it goes on the more my personal willingness to compromise erodes


  • #4
    Chancer3001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    I too hope we go on another strike, just to show we are not engaging.

    We have to hold tough until she's gone. New government isn't THAT far away...


  • #5
    acequion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭acequion


    I really am appalled by O Sullivan's attitude. She is after all an elected representative and I certainly am not willing to vote for people who dictate and bully. She is treating us as if we were nothing more than a bunch of disorderly kids.

    But I shouldn't be surprised given that this is the Govt that brought in FEMPI, that slashed our pay and conditions under the protection of the infamous CPA and HRA, and she is following in the footsteps of her predecessor who threatened teachers with redundancies in order to have his way. 21st century style democracy,just leave out the democracy.

    Hold tough,teachers! To capitulate again really would be disastrous.


  • #6
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    She was on Newstalk today inferring that teachers would not be paid if they do not follow the dictat!!!

    Only response to with-holding pay is rolling strikes I would imagine. So the question is... will parents ire cause Teachers to go against the union?


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  • #7
    acequion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭acequion


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    She was on Newstalk today inferring that teachers would not be paid if they do not follow the dictat!!!

    Only response to with-holding pay is rolling strikes I would imagine. So the question is... will parents ire cause Teachers to go against the union?

    Wow!! I never heard that.This gets better by the minute. But teachers who cave in shouldn't even be in a union. Voting yes to strike was a commitment to seeing the whole thing through.


  • #8
    Benicetomonty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭Benicetomonty


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/secondary-teachers-write-to-education-minister-seeking-tradeoff-in-junior-cert-row-31037365.html


  • #9
    acequion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭acequion


    Benicetomonty wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/secondary-teachers-write-to-education-minister-seeking-tradeoff-in-junior-cert-row-31037365.html

    Thanks for posting that Benicetomonty. Seems that the unions are behaving very reasonably and I'm glad that got reported. However O Sullivan is like the queen bee, all huffy and puffy,and let her off, as long as the unions don't convert reasonable into deferential. The attitude of the DES in 2015 really has to be seen to be believed. I'm not long back this evening from one of the oral marking conferences,where the condescension was apparent from the general attitude to the examiners to our having to pay for the 11am coffee [despite having come from all over the place in the snow!] Is a cup of coffee for the nation's LC examiners really going to bankrupt the country!!

    But that aside,I'd be very interested to know more about this on-line training service. It's an extremely sneaky measure and I would be beyond disgusted with any fellow union member who would use it.


  • #10
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    If teachers cave on this, we will be seen as even easier pickings for the next round of paycuts...I mean "economies."


  • #11
    2011abc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭2011abc


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/school-managers-to-be-briefed-on-junior-cycle-implementation-plan-1.2122357

    Video in above link shows the contempt she displays towards teachers .Once again clear that HRA2 was obviously 'Game Over' and union/s became redundant afterwards.She will threaten to dock teachers pay if they dont 'cooperate' in September and get what she wants .


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  • #12
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    where is this online training stuff coming from (is it in the travers proposal somewhere)?

    Maybe itll be sold to/phased in by jobbridge/nqt's mentees/subs as 'being good for the auld CV when the permanent job comes up!

    I wouldnt be surprised if its all been set up/paid for and ready to go!


  • #13
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/principals-at-odds-with-teachers-in-junior-cert-reform-plan-31035566.html

    This ****e sickens me. The management bodies and the NAPD being all up for stuff.

    They look forward to engaging on the issue of resources. Feck that, engage now then support it when you know what's coming.

    This blind faith in the DES is bulL****, schools have haven't got the manpower to run this and they haven't got the resources to deal with the paperwork and the napd know this. Get your resources first please. I say this as a member of NAPD, I'm not impressed at all.

    And it doesn't help principals or deputies to have their staff reading in the paper that they're all gung-ho for something the staff are against, talk about making your life harder! It feeds into a them and us culture that's far too widespread in my opinion.

    I think we have to live in the real world, there will be change, I accept that. I think we all should. What I don't think we should do is lie down when the fight is nearly won on the key issues.

    The unions have been conciliatory but if there is a threat to pay on this the whole system needs to shut down and not for a day or two. I think that there's time for another strike in March.

    Put our money where our mouth is now and see this out.


  • #14
    Benicetomonty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭Benicetomonty


    Unions' letter rejected by Jan. Ball back in their court.


  • #15
    km79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,254 ✭✭✭✭km79


    and here is their 3 line "response" http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/joint-tuiasti-statement-regarding-junior-cycle-dispute//back_to/asti-home/


  • #16
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    I would await events but Im curious to know if I refuse to mark my own pupils for this-can I be disciplined as has been suggested by the minister? Could I just give 100% -given we have no externs now?


  • #17
    acequion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭acequion


    ‘It is regrettable that the Minister has not accepted our reasonable and positive proposal to move this situation forward.

    We see talks as the only way to resolve the outstanding issues in this dispute.

    The unions are considering the implications of the Minister’s position.’

    Joint TUI/ASTI statement regarding Junior Cycle dispute

    Copied and pasted from the website. The implications of the Minister's position are very clear. We need to ratchet up our industrial action! Everyone please contact your branch and demand an urgent branch meeting where our wishes can also be made clear.


  • #18
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    The threat to pay is unprecedented. I think its time to go to the mattresses 😊

    You're right about ramping things up. Now is not the time for pussyfooting.


  • #19
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    She was on Newstalk today inferring that teachers would not be paid if they do not follow the dictat!!!

    Only response to with-holding pay is rolling strikes I would imagine. So the question is... will parents ire cause Teachers to go against the union?

    The best response is a work to rule. No doing tutor work such as register keeping, no extra curricular activities. Teach. Go home.

    See what happens.


  • #20
    km79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,254 ✭✭✭✭km79


    katydid wrote: »
    The best response is a work to rule. No doing tutor work such as register keeping, no extra curricular activities. Teach. Go home.

    See what happens.
    You are correct Katy BUT extra curr teachers just won't do this . had this discussion a few times in our staff room
    Won't happen


  • #21
    Chancer3001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    no, people enjoy sport too uch. its also a way to lose good will and parents backing too! We need to keep as much good will as possible. Extra curricular we should not touch.
    Childrens education we shouldn't touch either - avoiding giving tests/correcting at home etc


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  • #22
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    katydid wrote: »
    The best response is a work to rule. No doing tutor work such as register keeping, no extra curricular activities. Teach. Go home.

    See what happens.

    The 'extra curricular' option has been bandied about a lot here in older 'strike/HR threads'
    Upshot... some in favour, others don't see it as part of T&C... also for some its the only joy in a very difficult teaching environment.
    I can see it splitting a whole staffroom tbh.

    But! in saying all that I think it would be way of getting some attention... after extra curricular doesn't bring in the 'teachers only looking for more money' strawman argument.


  • #23
    aratsarse101
    Registered Users Posts: 128 ✭✭aratsarse101


    Is it true that some of those who were negotiating on our behalf in the last few weeks were in the background on TV on Saturday night - AT THE LABOUR ANNUAL CONFERENCE???


  • #24
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    The 'extra curricular' option has been bandied about a lot here in older 'strike/HR threads'
    Upshot... some in favour, others don't see it as part of T&C... also for some its the only joy in a very difficult teaching environment.
    I can see it splitting a whole staffroom tbh.

    But! in saying all that I think it would be way of getting some attention... after extra curricular doesn't bring in the 'teachers only looking for more money' strawman argument.
    The non-contract stuff might be the only joy left, but you can't have your cake and eat it. Either you roll over and accept what is being imposed, or you object. Either you object by going on strike and losing money, or you object by doing the job you are paid to do (and no more) and not losing money.

    They've taken enough money off us. Why give them more? You work hard enough to earn it.


  • #25
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    km79 wrote: »
    You are correct Katy BUT extra curr teachers just won't do this . had this discussion a few times in our staff room
    Won't happen

    Well, if they won't do it, and are happy to go on strike and lose more money, that's their choice. It's kind of cutting off your nose to spite your face, in my opinion.

    The extra stuff is what keeps us going, but this is a serious situation. If second level teachers are genuine in their objections, they have to do something now. And why do something that is going to involve financial loss?


  • #26
    Chancer3001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    Because the alternative is poor.

    We'd lose all our goodwill


  • #27
    acequion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭acequion


    We'd lose a hell of a lot more good will by striking and closing schools as well as hitting our own meagre pockets.

    For once I'd be pretty much in agreement with katydid.I think work to rule is the way to go, along with some lunch time protests to keep the campaign publicised. By work to rule, I would mean withdrawing from non teaching duties such as HR. That would in no way impact on kids and their parents,but it would send a strong message to the DES.

    Concerning extra curricular,I have been against them since the start of these disputes,because I think they normalise working for free,and our value has been cheapened enough. However,as Gebgbegb said,that argument has already been done here and I agree it could divide staff rooms.


  • #28
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Chancer3001 wrote: »
    Because the alternative is poor.

    We'd lose all our goodwill

    The alternative is that YOU will be lose money...

    What goodwill do we have?


  • #29
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Dont get me wrong, im all for suspending Extra Curricular... But I think unions wouldnt touch the idea with a bargepole.

    How about putting a ban on all lunch time meetings too! We're always expected to do meetings (fair enough) but if we're expected to meet over the latest inane initiative then give us time from class, I want to have my lunch! Ya sure I can say no, but sadly it wouldnt go down too well.


  • #30
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    Keep it about the JC. I think if we muddy the waters it won't help. We'd be better off talking about reactivating the strike mandate than engaging in nonsense protests that hit other areas.

    Teachers who are involved in extra curricular generally want to be at it. In some schools they are paid for it. The issue is too complicated for a blanket ban. Your union cant ban voluntary activity like this anyway from memory of previous actual discussions in union circles.


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  • #31
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    Keep it about the JC. I think if we muddy the waters it won't help. We'd be better off talking about reactivating the strike mandate than engaging in nonsense protests that hit other areas.

    Teachers who are involved in extra curricular generally want to be at it. In some schools they are paid for it. The issue is too complicated for a blanket ban. Your union cant ban voluntary activity like this anyway from memory of previous actual discussions in union circles.

    It IS about the Junior Cert. It is about your supposed opposition to the proposals and the need to take action in response to the latest demands by the Department. Do you want to go on strike and lose several days pay rather than not do work you are not paid for and keep your money?

    The vast majority of teachers do extra curricular work of some kind or another, and the vast majority do non-contracted work such as class tutor administration. Of course they LIKE doing it, just like they LIKE teaching.

    But that's not the point - you are being forced by the Dept. to go work you claim you don't want to do. If you don't take a stand, either by going on strike or working to rule, you might as well just throw up your hands and do the blooming assessment, and all the protesting was for nothing. So do you take industrial action that involves you losing money, or do you take action that involves you not losing money?

    I'm not involved in the dispute because I'm not in the sector, but if I were, I wouldn't be too happy to lose more money than I've already lost.


  • #32
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    I'm not against work to rule but I don't think it's a strong enough response to where we currently are in this dispute. Apart from that I think it would fail utterly as there's just too many teachers who would refuse to cooperate. Very few union members would cross a picket but plenty are willing to carry on with extra work, unpaid management duties etc - there's already many breaching directives on post duties for example.

    And obviously it's different for everyone but the difference in my net pay was miniscule after strike days.


  • #33
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Savanna Spicy Rye wrote: »
    I'm not against work to rule but I don't think it's a strong enough response to where we currently are in this dispute. Apart from that I think it would fail utterly as there's just too many teachers who would refuse to cooperate. Very few union members would cross a picket but plenty are willing to carry on with extra work, unpaid management duties etc - there's already many breaching directives on post duties for example.

    And obviously it's different for everyone but the difference in my net pay was miniscule after strike days.

    No, I agree that not enough people would cooperate. it would be effective if it were done properly - not doing the class tutor role alone would bring many schools to a halt.

    One day's pay might not show up too much on a pay packet, but this will have to escalate if it's going to have any effect. And the other point is that while it may not make a big difference to a full time, permanent teacher, a day's pay can mean an awful lot to a part timer.


  • #34
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Well look, nothings going to happen just yet (and esp not before this june).

    So itll trundle along untill sept. then the ball is in dept. court when teachers refuse to take up the training (probably pencilled in for late october ) Maybe by then there will be shiny trinkets on the table with the pre-election slush fund.

    My take is that it's essentially kicked to touch till next election!


  • #35
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,973 ✭✭✭doc_17


    I think the whole thing is done and dusted. Had a look at the latest concessions the government made. It's a completely resounding victory for the unions.

    Small details to be ironed out but compared to Ruairi Quinn's proposals it's very different.


  • #36
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    doc_17 wrote: »
    I think the whole thing is done and dusted. Had a look at the latest concessions the government made. It's a completely resounding victory for the unions.

    Small details to be ironed out but compared to Ruairi Quinn's proposals it's very different.

    How is it a victory when they said they don't want to mark the assessements AT ALL?


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  • #37
    acequion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭acequion


    Savanna Spicy Rye wrote: »
    I'm not against work to rule but I don't think it's a strong enough response to where we currently are in this dispute. Apart from that I think it would fail utterly as there's just too many teachers who would refuse to cooperate. Very few union members would cross a picket but plenty are willing to carry on with extra work, unpaid management duties etc - there's already many breaching directives on post duties for example.

    And obviously it's different for everyone but the difference in my net pay was miniscule after strike days.

    I certainly felt it in mine,Savanna Spicy Rye! And while I'm more than prepared to do it again and to escalate if that's what people want,I think it could backfire. A ban on all the HR meetings would send a strong message to the DES and if the situation is still the same in September it could include the evening P/T meetings as before. I feel we would do better if this dragged on and became an election issue. It would also pretty much guarantee deferral of Science and English. Striking at this critical point in the school year could really turn the public hostile. Having them onside, especially so close to an election, is a definite plus.
    doc_17 wrote: »
    I think the whole thing is done and dusted. Had a look at the latest concessions the government made. It's a completely resounding victory for the unions.

    Small details to be ironed out but compared to Ruairi Quinn's proposals it's very different.

    What on earth are you talking about,doc_17? How have the unions got a "resounding victory"? Do please explain.


  • #38
    acequion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭acequion


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Dont get me wrong, im all for suspending Extra Curricular... But I think unions wouldnt touch the idea with a bargepole.

    How about putting a ban on all lunch time meetings too! We're always expected to do meetings (fair enough) but if we're expected to meet over the latest inane initiative then give us time from class, I want to have my lunch! Ya sure I can say no, but sadly it wouldnt go down too well.

    I get so cross when I read stuff like this because EVERYBODY is entitled to a lunch break.And BREAK means BREAK. Any doctor will tell us that we shouldn't eat and work and that proper breaks are vital for good mental and physical health. So,when I see teachers running around at lunchtime trying to multi task in between bites of a sandwich and mouthfuls of water/tea,I despair! And utterly unacceptable that teachers do it because they feel they have no choice.
    katydid wrote: »
    It IS about the Junior Cert. It is about your supposed opposition to the proposals and the need to take action in response to the latest demands by the Department. Do you want to go on strike and lose several days pay rather than not do work you are not paid for and keep your money?

    The vast majority of teachers do extra curricular work of some kind or another, and the vast majority do non-contracted work such as class tutor administration. Of course they LIKE doing it, just like they LIKE teaching.

    But that's not the point - you are being forced by the Dept. to go work you claim you don't want to do. If you don't take a stand, either by going on strike or working to rule, you might as well just throw up your hands and do the blooming assessment, and all the protesting was for nothing. So do you take industrial action that involves you losing money, or do you take action that involves you not losing money?

    I'm not involved in the dispute because I'm not in the sector, but if I were, I wouldn't be too happy to lose more money than I've already lost.

    katydid,I don't want to start another argument with you and drag the thread off topic,but I really have to disagree with what's emboldened above.The "vast majority" of teachers don't do extra curricular.In my school it's about 50/50 and it varies widely from school to school. And as for they "LIKE" doing it, I wouldn't be at all sure about that.They might pretend to like it but I assure you many do it because they feel under pressure to do something extra. Absolutely nobody should ever be under pressure to do extra but sadly many are and many are exploited.


  • #39
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    acequion wrote: »
    I get so cross when I read stuff like this because EVERYBODY is entitled to a lunch break.And BREAK means BREAK. Any doctor will tell us that we shouldn't eat and work and that proper breaks are vital for good mental and physical health. So,when I see teachers running around at lunchtime trying to multi task in between bites of a sandwich and mouthfuls of water/tea,I despair! And utterly unacceptable that teachers do it because they feel they have no choice.



    katydid,I don't want to start another argument with you and drag the thread off topic,but I really have to disagree with what's emboldened above.The "vast majority" of teachers don't do extra curricular.In my school it's about 50/50 and it varies widely from school to school. And as for they "LIKE" doing it, I wouldn't be at all sure about that.They might pretend to like it but I assure you many do it because they feel under pressure to do something extra. Absolutely nobody should ever be under pressure to do extra but sadly many are and many are exploited.
    It's illegal to have meetings over lunchtime if it means a teacher working over four hours in a row, which is highly likely if they don't have a free before or after lunch.

    It depends what you mean by "extra-curricular". I agree that not everyone does the sport, the drama etc. But the vast majority do work above and beyond the call of duty, even if it's spending free time helping a student with work, or listening to their problems, but it's still extra-curricular as in outside the curriculum.


  • #40
    acequion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭acequion


    katydid wrote: »
    It's illegal to have meetings over lunchtime if it means a teacher working over four hours in a row, which is highly likely if they don't have a free before or after lunch.

    It depends what you mean by "extra-curricular". I agree that not everyone does the sport, the drama etc. But the vast majority do work above and beyond the call of duty, even if it's spending free time helping a student with work, or listening to their problems, but it's still extra-curricular as in outside the curriculum.

    Fair enough and you're right that indeed the majority of teachers do go above and beyond the call of duty.


  • #41
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,973 ✭✭✭doc_17


    acequion wrote: »
    I certainly felt it in mine,Arlessienne! And while I'm more than prepared to do it again and to escalate if that's what people want,I think it could backfire. A ban on all the HR meetings would send a strong message to the DES and if the situation is still the same in September it could include the evening P/T meetings as before. I feel we would do better if this dragged on and became an election issue. It would also pretty much guarantee deferral of Science and English. Striking at this critical point in the school year could really turn the public hostile. Having them onside, especially so close to an election, is a definite plus.



    What on earth are you talking about,doc_17? How have the unions got a "resounding victory"? Do please explain.

    Well I'm not saying the new JC will be wonderful. But as far as it being maintained as a state exam 100% certified by the state? Done deal. Well, according to the latest Travers document that was circulated at our union meeting on Wednesday night.

    Normally I'm very militant but this document is our greatest victory in years. Almost a complete reversal of Quinn's proposals. Now it's not perfect. But unlike HRA and CP it's a huge improvement on the initial proposals


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  • #42
    solerina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭solerina


    I would be quite happy to work to rule....no more class tutor duties, no more after school activities (I like doing them but would be quite happy to stop too) and no more Crock Park (not a mis-spelling) or HR hours would be fantastic, I would be delighted not to sit through anymore pointless meetings !!!

    I also think it might make the public wake up to how much is done for free from the good will of teachers if all the extra curricular stopped....its totally taken for granted now.


  • #43
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    solerina wrote: »
    I would be quite happy to work to rule....no more class tutor duties, no more after school activities (I like doing them but would be quite happy to stop too) and no more Crock Park (not a mis-spelling) or HR hours would be fantastic, I would be delighted not to sit through anymore pointless meetings !!!

    I also think it might make the public wake up to how much is done for free from the good will of teachers if all the extra curricular stopped....its totally taken for granted now.

    Unfortunately many of your colleagues wouldn't see it that way. The problem with teaching, like nursing, is that you are dealing with people, and while your head is telling you to work to rule, your heart is telling you differently.

    And the Dept. know this. They know that no matter how badly they treat teachers, how many "detentions" they give them, they will still do the football and the drama and the counselling, because that is what they do.


  • #44
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    doc_17 wrote: »
    Well I'm not saying the new JC will be wonderful. But as far as it being maintained as a state exam 100% certified by the state? Done deal. Well, according to the latest Travers document that was circulated at our union meeting on Wednesday night.

    Normally I'm very militant but this document is our greatest victory in years. Almost a complete reversal of Quinn's proposals. Now it's not perfect. But unlike HRA and CP it's a huge improvement on the initial proposals

    Teachers are still marking 40%. How is that a victory?


  • #45
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    I can see doc_17's point. the argument was against state certification. the JC will be based on the tests set and marked externally. the 40% will be externally mandated but internally assessed.

    is it a good halfway house? I'm not sure, I want to read that report again and get my head around it a bit better.

    there has been success from the unions, and I know it was a hard sell to even get the ballot for industrial action off the ground. I think the lesson is that if its specific its easier to have success, when you muddy the waters its harder to deal with issues


  • #46
    acequion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭acequion


    doc_17 wrote: »
    Well I'm not saying the new JC will be wonderful. But as far as it being maintained as a state exam 100% certified by the state? Done deal. Well, according to the latest Travers document that was circulated at our union meeting on Wednesday night.

    Normally I'm very militant but this document is our greatest victory in years. Almost a complete reversal of Quinn's proposals. Now it's not perfect. But unlike HRA and CP it's a huge improvement on the initial proposals

    I completely disagree. 40% teacher assessment is still there.Just not for state certification, NOT AT THE MOMENT. It still heaps extra work on teachers and is a slippery slope.I have only one thing to say and that's a resounding NO.

    As for the comparison with HRA, you could argue that the unions achieved enabling a limited amount of people to buy out of S&S.Yet nobody is hailing that as a big departure from the original proposals and rightly so.

    And as for the comparison with what Ruari Quinn proposed,that's like comparing Enda Kenny's pay with Bertie Ahern's and saying that Enda has taken a big pay cut [pat his back]. Of course it seems a big cut compared with the obscene money Ahern was on.Likewise, Ruari's 100% teacher assessment was outlandish.

    So,I wouldn't be flinging off the militant boots yet,doc_17!


  • #47
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,973 ✭✭✭doc_17


    The JC exam is worth 100% of their state certified JC. The 40% we look at won't even get a grade from us.


  • #48
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    doc_17 wrote: »
    The JC exam is worth 100% of their state certified JC. The 40% we look at won't even get a grade from us.

    How do you mean "won't get a grade"? I thought it was getting school certification.


  • #49
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    katydid wrote: »
    How do you mean "won't get a grade"? I thought it was getting school certification.

    Reverse the truck there folks...

    As far as I can ascertain the whole deal is off. We teach on as normal with ZERO school/teacher based certification. For all intensive purposes the students' marks will be 100% June exams (plus the usual practicals/orals etc.)...

    Am I wrong ? To my mind I thought Travers was dead in the water (unless the govt. accepts it as a basis for further discussion!!).
    • Govt. says they are going with Travers II.
    • Union says No


  • #50
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Reverse the truck there folks...

    As far as I can ascertain the whole deal is off. We teach on as normal with ZERO school/teacher based certification. For all intensive purposes the students' marks will be 100% June exams (plus the usual practicals/orals etc.)...

    Am I wrong ? To my mind I thought Travers was dead in the water (unless the govt. accepts it as a basis for further discussion!!).
    • Govt. says they are going with Travers II.
    • Union says No
    So what is Jan O'Sullivan insisting that you do?


  • #51
    implausible
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭implausible


    katydid wrote: »
    How do you mean "won't get a grade"? I thought it was getting school certification.

    The school cert will resemble an expanded school report. It won't have grades, rather we will tick comments from a national template.

    The internal assessments (e.g. English oral) will be carried out instead of Christmas or Summer tests.


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