The Metal Detecting Debate. Keep all your MD questions and querys here!

slowburner · 13-03-2012 9:31pm

If you have an hour or so to spare, there is a very interesting albeit inconclusive, 'Time Team' show available to view on 4oD here.
The show deals in a fairly toothless way, with some of the issues and effects around metal detecting.

I felt somewhat proud of our legislation afterwards.

Fighting Irish · 13-03-2012 10:30pm

slowburner wrote: »

If you have an hour or so to spare, there is a very interesting albeit inconclusive, 'Time Team' show available to view on 4oD here.
The show deals in a fairly toothless way, with some of the issues and effects around metal detecting.

I felt somewhat proud of our legislation afterwards.

"There will always be MDers"

RollYerOwn · 13-03-2012 11:02pm

Fighting Irish wrote: »

"There will always be MDers"

:rolleyes:

Fighting Irish · 14-03-2012 12:38am

RollYerOwn wrote: »

:rolleyes:

That's a fact, and the way the law is here, it makes everyone lose!

Just saying

Having something like this in the republic would be win win for everyone

RollYerOwn · 14-03-2012 9:27am

Well, no. It wouldn't.

These arguments have been made time and again in this forum and you have continually been unwilling to engage with any of the points raised.

Let's face it, you have no intention of altering your activity whether illegal or not and whether it it is destructive to the heritage of this country or not.

In short, your motives are entirely selfish with no regard to your own heritage.

slowburner · 14-03-2012 10:07am

That is a voluntary organisation.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What is the UK Detector Finds Database?
The UK Detector Finds Database (UKDFD) is an initiative by members of the metal-detecting community to promote good practice within the hobby. It is an easy-to-use, friendly and supportive online facility for detectorists to record their finds and ensure that the information is both available for current research, and preserved for future generations.[/FONT]

Why not start your own?
It would be very helpful to see where Irish metal detectorists have been at work.

They go on to state this:[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

And even when a worthwhile find is made, it is frequently the case that recording would serve no useful purpose.

______________________________________________________

Every ounce of this issue hinges on one question.
Are metal detectorists motivated by the desire to make a contribution to the store of knowledge, or are they motivated by the desire to find things which they can keep or sell?

How do we answer this?
We look at the evidence.

The evidence in Ireland has shown that metal detecting has been carried out by organised gangs and corrupt individuals motivated entirely by financial gain.
That is why this legislation was introduced and that is why the legislation will not be repealed.

Judgement Day · 14-03-2012 7:58pm

Our friend on eBay, from NI, has some more 'interesting' finds on sale here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IRISH-METAL-DETECTING-FIND-CELTIC-BRONZE-PENDANT-VERY-RARE-/170802450626?pt=UK_Antiquities&hash=item27c49e90c2#ht_500wt_1202

Maudi · 14-03-2012 11:06pm

slowburner wrote: »

That is a voluntary organisation.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What is the UK Detector Finds Database?
The UK Detector Finds Database (UKDFD) is an initiative by members of the metal-detecting community to promote good practice within the hobby. It is an easy-to-use, friendly and supportive online facility for detectorists to record their finds and ensure that the information is both available for current research, and preserved for future generations.[/FONT]

Why not start your own?
It would be very helpful to see where Irish metal detectorists have been at work.

They go on to state this:[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

And even when a worthwhile find is made, it is frequently the case that recording would serve no useful purpose.

______________________________________________________

Every ounce of this issue hinges on one question.
Are metal detectorists motivated by the desire to make a contribution to the store of knowledge, or are they motivated by the desire to find things which they can keep or sell?

How do we answer this?
We look at the evidence.

The evidence in Ireland has shown that metal detecting has been carried out by organised gangs and corrupt individuals motivated entirely by financial gain.
That is why this legislation was introduced and that is why the legislation will not be repealed.

c'mon! slowburner ...the evidence points to to organised gangs???c'mon now ...your totally getting out of hand with those type of headline comments...organised gangs? from whom are you getting these comments?please dont quote that father and son duo as organised gangs...the vast majority of finds are from mders...or bits and pieces picked up after road crews have bulldozed thru a site....can you name a trained professional arch...who has gone out and dis anything?probly very few or none..they have been pointed out stuff by amateurs or developers.

Maudi · 14-03-2012 11:21pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Our friend on eBay, from NI, has some more 'interesting' finds on sale here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IRISH-METAL-DETECTING-FIND-CELTIC-BRONZE-PENDANT-VERY-RARE-/170802450626?pt=UK_Antiquities&hash=item27c49e90c2#ht_500wt_1202

so organised "gangs"are roaming around the country a gang being two or more and selling it for five euros on ebay..gangs?five euro? c'mon.. these organised "gangs" are to be feared and watched out for the might make ten or even fifteen euro on ebay...oh the ruination?meanwhile the roads authority bulldoze graveyards and throw a few scraps to the archs and wow they are great preservers of irish heritage ...dont make me laugh...and roll..the cash cow is gone...it wont be back..its ok to say what you really think

Maudi · 14-03-2012 11:22pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Our friend on eBay, from NI, has some more 'interesting' finds on sale here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IRISH-METAL-DETECTING-FIND-CELTIC-BRONZE-PENDANT-VERY-RARE-/170802450626?pt=UK_Antiquities&hash=item27c49e90c2#ht_500wt_1202

so organised "gangs"are roaming around the country a gang being two or more and selling it for five euros on ebay..gangs?five euro? c'mon.. these organised "gangs" are to be feared and watched out for the might make ten or even fifteen euro on ebay...oh the ruination?meanwhile the roads authority bulldoze graveyards and throw a few scraps to the archs and wow they are great preservers of irish heritage ...dont make me laugh...and roll..the cash cow is gone...it wont be back..its ok to say what you really think

Maudi · 14-03-2012 11:47pm

slowburner wrote: »

That is a voluntary organisation.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What is the UK Detector Finds Database?
The UK Detector Finds Database (UKDFD) is an initiative by members of the metal-detecting community to promote good practice within the hobby. It is an easy-to-use, friendly and supportive online facility for detectorists to record their finds and ensure that the information is both available for current research, and preserved for future generations.[/FONT]

Why not start your own?
It would be very helpful to see where Irish metal detectorists have been at work.

They go on to state this:[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

And even when a worthwhile find is made, it is frequently the case that recording would serve no useful purpose.

______________________________________________________

Every ounce of this issue hinges on one question.
Are metal detectorists motivated by the desire to make a contribution to the store of knowledge, or are they motivated by the desire to find things which they can keep or sell?

How do we answer this?
We look at the evidence.

The evidence in Ireland has shown that metal detecting has been carried out by organised gangs and gangs individuals motivated entirely by financial gain.
That is why this legislation was introduced and that is why the legislation will not be repealed.

you say it all hinges on "one "question but you ask two?confused??metal detecting you say is "organised"by criminal "gangs"yet the stuff on ebay your friend to is valued at five quid...five quid...so maybe if we "gave" them 20 quid..sure a hundred quid and we would nearly stop those "corrupt"individuals"altogether..mders arent going out and bulldozing sites into oblivion ...developers are....thank god the celtic tiger has slowed down and our heritage has stopped being "bought" off...all round the country our relatives graves have been "desecrated"and they've ended up in dusty boxes in the name of progress...or a new road...

Fighting Irish · 15-03-2012 1:15am

RollYerOwn wrote: »

Well, no. It wouldn't.

These arguments have been made time and again in this forum and you have continually been unwilling to engage with any of the points raised.

Let's face it, you have no intention of altering your activity whether illegal or not and whether it it is destructive to the heritage of this country or not.

In short, your motives are entirely selfish with no regard to your own heritage.

I've only MDed gardens and beaches, i haven't found much other than punt coins, if i found something important i'd have to think twice about handing it in(because by handing it in, it means i broke the law)

Fighting Irish · 15-03-2012 1:16am

Judgement Day wrote: »

Our friend on eBay, from NI, has some more 'interesting' finds on sale here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IRISH-METAL-DETECTING-FIND-CELTIC-BRONZE-PENDANT-VERY-RARE-/170802450626?pt=UK_Antiquities&hash=item27c49e90c2#ht_500wt_1202

In NI its legal to MD? But ye, fook him for ruining stuff for the rest of us

slowburner · 15-03-2012 10:50am

Maudi wrote: »

you say it all hinges on "one "question but you ask two?confused??metal detecting you say is "organised"by criminal "gangs"yet the stuff on ebay your friend to is valued at five quid...five quid...so maybe if we "gave" them 20 quid..sure a hundred quid and we would nearly stop those "corrupt"individuals"altogether..mders arent going out and bulldozing sites into oblivion ...developers are....thank god the celtic tiger has slowed down and our heritage has stopped being "bought" off...all round the country our relatives graves have been "desecrated"and they've ended up in dusty boxes in the name of progress...or a new road...

The issue hinges on one question - the second question 'How do we answer this?', is rhetorical.

Maudi wrote: »

so organised "gangs"are roaming around the country a gang being two or more and selling it for five euros on ebay..gangs?five euro? c'mon.. these organised "gangs" are to be feared and watched out for the might make ten or even fifteen euro on ebay...oh the ruination?meanwhile the roads authority bulldoze graveyards and throw a few scraps to the archs and wow they are great preservers of irish heritage ...dont make me laugh...and roll..the cash cow is gone...it wont be back..its ok to say what you really think

The number of people in the group is irrelevant.
The amount of money they make from their finds is irrelevant.
What is relevant is the damage and loss caused by illegal metal detecting and of course, developments where surveys have not been undertaken.

Maudi wrote: »

c'mon! slowburner ...the evidence points to to organised gangs???c'mon now ...your totally getting out of hand with those type of headline comments...organised gangs? from whom are you getting these comments?please dont quote that father and son duo as organised gangs...the vast majority of finds are from mders...or bits and pieces picked up after road crews have bulldozed thru a site....can you name a trained professional arch...who has gone out and dis anything?probly very few or none..they have been pointed out stuff by amateurs or developers.

You should read this article.

slowburner · 15-03-2012 11:06am

Fighting Irish wrote: »

In NI its legal to MD? But ye, fook him for ruining stuff for the rest of us

The laws in NI are not dissimilar to ours:

Restrictions on possession and use of detecting devices29.—(1) If a person has a detecting device in his possession in a protected place without the written consent of the Department he shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.(2) In this Article—“detecting device” means any device designed or adapted for detecting or locating any metal or mineral on or in the ground; and“protected place” means any place which is the site of a scheduled monument or of any monument under the ownership or guardianship of the Department.(3) If a person without the written consent of the Department removes any archaeological object which he has discovered by the use of a detecting device in a protected place he shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or on conviction on indictment to a fine.(4) A consent granted by the Department for the purposes of this Article may be granted either unconditionally or subject to conditions.(5) If any person—(a)in using a detecting device in a protected place in accordance with any consent granted by the Department for the purposes of this Article; or
(b)in removing or otherwise dealing with any object which he has discovered by the use of a detecting device in a protected place in accordance with any such consent,
fails to comply with any condition attached to the consent, he shall be guilty of an offence and liable, in a case falling within sub-paragraph (a), to the penalty provided by paragraph (1), and in a case falling within sub-paragraph (b), to the penalty provided by paragraph (3).(6) In any proceedings for an offence under paragraph (1) or (3), it shall be a defence for the accused to prove that he had taken all reasonable precautions to find out whether the place where he had the detecting device in his possession or (as the case may be) used it was a protected place and did not believe that it was.

slowburner · 15-03-2012 9:01pm

Maudi wrote: »

....can you name a trained professional arch...who has gone out and dis anything?probly very few or none..they have been pointed out stuff by amateurs or developers.

I can name several, but that would be publishing their names without prior consent.
In the public domain the list is far too great for here, but some names you should research are Barry Raftery, William O'Sullivan, George Eogan, off the top of my head.
I'm sure someone will think of many more.

RollYerOwn · 16-03-2012 11:03am

Maudi wrote: »

meanwhile the roads authority bulldoze graveyards and throw a few scraps to the archs and wow they are great preservers of irish heritage ...dont make me laugh

I'm sure you won't disappoint by backing that up with concrete examples? I'm sure in the hundreds of miles of new motorways - each with archaeological test trenches excavated across the width of it about every 20 metres or less, there must have been some examples of things that were missed.... maybe you can weigh that up against the hundreds and hundreds of sites excavated by archaeologists every year during The Boom and find another way to bash archaeologists. Maybe you can find a single country in the world where more was done to find unknown sites and preserve them?

Maudi wrote: »

...and roll..the cash cow is gone...it wont be back..its ok to say what you really think

As it happens I'm an EX-archaeologist (like 80% of the previously employed archaeologists) who started out on IR£285 a week at the start of that "cash-cow" and finished on much less self-employed. In it's height this "cash-cow was paying an average site worker €450-500 per week on short-term contracts. Yes I'd jump at the opportunity to earn that now, but every single construction dude on a particular road scheme would be earning more than us. Cash cow my eye. :mad:

So yes I can say what I like. What I like to say is, you seem to have your own agenda that includes bashing archaeologists - people who have studied a subject for many years in Higher Education level as well as working in that area as professionals for many more years - as "know-it-alls". Why? Because you inexplicably know better though refuse to argue your case.

In the words of Dirty Harry:
Opinions are like assholes... Everyone's got one.

So I presume that by asking you to argue your case rather than just stating opinions that you hold for no demonstrable reason, I am once again "bullying" you.
:P

baaba maal · 17-03-2012 12:19am

Maudi wrote: »

you say it all hinges on "one "question but you ask two?confused??metal detecting you say is "organised"by criminal "gangs"yet the stuff on ebay your friend to is valued at five quid...five quid...so maybe if we "gave" them 20 quid..sure a hundred quid and we would nearly stop those "corrupt"individuals"altogether..mders arent going out and bulldozing sites into oblivion ...developers are....thank god the celtic tiger has slowed down and our heritage has stopped being "bought" off...all round the country our relatives graves have been "desecrated"and they've ended up in dusty boxes in the name of progress...or a new road...

I've been following this thread for a very, very long time, so apolgies in advance for the rather long addition to the thread.

I don't own a MD and I'm not an archaeologist. I'm somebody with a deep and passionate interest in this country's prehistory and history. Maudi, you have, in my opinion, a lot of agendas that you are trying to tie together. Yes, big Celtic Tiger developments have destroyed sites of archaeological interest. Yes, archaeologists sometimes (to my untutored eye) made choices that enabled the destruction of sites rather than saying- "eh, actually, now that we see what's here, the motorway/apartment block/monument to politician should actually be built somewhere else bacause this site is simply too valuable to the heritage of Ireland". Yes, we have lost a lot of this through the tacit submission of various state agencies.

However, I have also witnessed farmers sneakily ripping up early medieval enclosures in advance of their REPS application. I have seen early Christian artefacts being robbed from an island off the west coast that I don't want to discuss. In short, I have seen both the sudden and dramatic, as well as the gradual and careless removal of the archaeological heritage of this country.
Included in this are the people who go off for the weekend with a MD and a shovel thinking they are great lads altogether for "finding" these objects and putting them on ebay for only a fiver.
I don't care what the motives are for people who do this. IT IS BAD PRACTICE THAT LESSENS OUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE CONTEXT OF THE VERY ITEM YOU ARE SO PROUD TO HAVE BROUGHT UP FROM THE GROUND! (apologies for the overly dramatic all caps).

Morally, MD enthusiasts are no better than the same archaeologists that you have such a problem with. Just because their methods may be suspect, doesn't make your methods acceptable. We cannot hope to recover more than a fraction of all the artefacts beneath our feet. MDers, by definition, are only interested in the metal stuff, and every time they put a spade in the ground, they run the risk of destroying all the associated non-metal materials. You are in effect deciding that one class of material is archaeologically interesting to you- and feck the rest of it.

Sorry Maudi, I want to know about all the rest of it as well, and you and your ilk are preventing the rest of the world from ever knowing the full context of your finds. It's a bit like Queen Maeve's tomb above Sligo town. It would be easy to drive a JCB up to it, dig a trench until you find the (presumed) passage grave, and dig out all the metal artefacts. Personally, I like the idea that someday in the future, a mixture of non-invasive remote sensing and possibly some gentle digging to sample some of the organic materials inside will present us with a wealth of information that may take years to interpret, but in the end, everybody's understanding of it will increase. Your system results in somebody finding a bit of aul metal from a field in Ballydewherever that might end up in somebody's drawer until that person dies and the bit of aul metal gets fecked in the bin.

Think about the issues and the longterm effects of what you do to prevent our understanding of our heritage (and not the debased increase in understanding yu would like to think it brings). Your predisposed antipathies towards the archaelogical profession cloud your judgement, in my opinion.

Fighting Irish · 30-03-2012 4:56pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17561882

.

RollYerOwn · 08-04-2012 2:26pm

Ooh. Glittery. Many torcs have been found before, just pop along to any significant Museum in Britain and Ireland. Shame this metal detectorist knew nothing about what he was looking for otherwise he would have recognised one of the most iconic objects from British and Irish archaeology.

Now there is no opportunity to excavate the find in situ to determine why it was where it was. No opportunity to date associated environmental remains by absolute methods. In short, we're none the wiser about this type of object.

Still, glittery. Well done him. I'm sure he is a most deserving individual and that every penny is well spent. More money wasted on glittery stuff for museums, that's what we need.

:rolleyes:

Mountainsandh · 08-04-2012 8:56pm

10 torcs found in Ireland according to the Dr R. in this article, that's not really "many".

Fighting Irish · 09-04-2012 5:57pm

RollYerOwn wrote: »

Ooh. Glittery. Many torcs have been found before, just pop along to any significant Museum in Britain and Ireland. Shame this metal detectorist knew nothing about what he was looking for otherwise he would have recognised one of the most iconic objects from British and Irish archaeology.

Now there is no opportunity to excavate the find in situ to determine why it was where it was. No opportunity to date associated environmental remains by absolute methods. In short, we're none the wiser about this type of object.

Still, glittery. Well done him. I'm sure he is a most deserving individual and that every penny is well spent. More money wasted on glittery stuff for museums, that's what we need.

:rolleyes:

The point is, if he didn't find it, more than likely it would be lost forever.

You want the guy to become an arch, in case he comes across something again?

mdebets · 09-04-2012 6:43pm

Fighting Irish wrote: »

The point is, if he didn't find it, more than likely it would be lost forever.

But now its worthless for archaeologists, as its whole context was destroyed. It would have been better off in the ground to be found one day and properly excavated with the full context intact.

Mountainsandh · 09-04-2012 10:22pm

Going round in circles again : context would not be intact in 50, 100, 200 years if the land were to be ploughed or more than likely turned by a bulldozer.

So... out of context torc now ? or ... out of context bulldozered bits of gold in 70 years ?

You run a risk of the context being lost either way.

Interestingly, I'm in Co Galway right now and driving through Clare also, I was noticing how the fields seem so untouched compared to our fields down in Co Waterford/Tipperary. In our parts there are very few fields and even brush/bog areas that are left untouched for long. I mean not only taking stones out, but moving soil.

Gee Bag · 10-04-2012 1:06am

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Going round in circles again : context would not be intact in 50, 100, 200 years if the land were to be ploughed or more than likely turned by a bulldozer.

Thats not true, generally speaking a plough is quite shallow, it only turns over the topsoil. I'd say tha the average depth of topsoil in Ireland is between 0.25-0.35m (maybe 0.40m in rich tillage land like Meath or the Southeast). Not all of Ireland was ploughed in the past as a lot of the land was simply not suitable for cereal cultivation.

Farmers don't bulldoze their land without reason. They may remove field boundaries, etc. but they would have no reason to bulldoze the centre of a field.

Mountainsandh · 10-04-2012 5:18pm

So, do metal detectorists dig a lot deeper than 45 cm ?

If a plough does not destroy context, then how much context is a one meter square hole destroying ? Again, weigh the destruction of that much context, against the fact that the artefact found may be the first one of its kind in Ireland, for example, that's possible, isn't it ?

Yes the farmers dig with a reason, absolutely. They have plenty I'm sure. It's not unusual near me to see fields dug out, some were in need of topsoil, another one brought in topsoil, another one needs to bury something, another one is creating a ditch, another one is moving a field boundary, another one is filling in a ditch, another one is draining a particular area, another one is digging out brambles and brush, and moving stones, another one is making a little bridge over there and so needs soil from over there, another one is digging test holes and applying for permission to build a house for his daughter.

It's fine and good to say from a distance that heritage is safer underground, but look, I will go around one of these days and take a series of pics to show you how much destruction of possible contextual heritage is going on around me in the countryside.

robp · 10-04-2012 6:37pm

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Going round in circles again : context would not be intact in 50, 100, 200 years if the land were to be ploughed or more than likely turned by a bulldozer.

So... out of context torc now ? or ... out of context bulldozered bits of gold in 70 years ?

You run a risk of the context being lost either way.

Interestingly, I'm in Co Galway right now and driving through Clare also, I was noticing how the fields seem so untouched compared to our fields down in Co Waterford/Tipperary. In our parts there are very few fields and even brush/bog areas that are left untouched for long. I mean not only taking stones out, but moving soil.

It was fond in a bog. Bogs are not ploughed or bulldozed without licence. Organisations like Bord na Mona carry out archaeological field surveys before and during bog exploitation.
A monetary price has no place for such an iconic piece of Bronze Age jewellery. Even if a museum can afford to buy it, think how much it’s budget will be set back for the year or years.

Certain areas of the West have very special ancient landscapes (or farmscapes I should say), especially the Burren.

slowburner · 10-04-2012 8:28pm

Mountainsandh wrote: »

So, do metal detectorists dig a lot deeper than 45 cm ?

If a plough does not destroy context, then how much context is a one meter square hole destroying ? Again, weigh the destruction of that much context, against the fact that the artefact found may be the first one of its kind in Ireland, for example, that's possible, isn't it ?

Yes the farmers dig with a reason, absolutely. They have plenty I'm sure. It's not unusual near me to see fields dug out, some were in need of topsoil, another one brought in topsoil, another one needs to bury something, another one is creating a ditch, another one is moving a field boundary, another one is filling in a ditch, another one is draining a particular area, another one is digging out brambles and brush, and moving stones, another one is making a little bridge over there and so needs soil from over there, another one is digging test holes and applying for permission to build a house for his daughter.

It's fine and good to say from a distance that heritage is safer underground, but look, I will go around one of these days and take a series of pics to show you how much destruction of possible contextual heritage is going on around me in the countryside.

Sounds like there's complete agricultural mayhem going on down your way.
Probably the best thing to do, is research the history of the area before you get too worried about what might or might not be there.
The OSI and Monuments database viewer websites are indispensable for this kind of preliminary research, as I'm sure you well know.
Or you could ask the landowners if you could have a snoop to see if anything interesting has popped up.

I have to say that I agree with you to a certain extent: some farmers would like to see their farms looking like something from the prairies.

Mountainsandh · 10-04-2012 9:04pm

Slowburner it's not mayhem and it doesn't all happen at once. Simply I am surrounded by farmers, and every week one of them might be at something new. So one week, once is making an embankment, the week after I notice one doing drainage work, etc... It's their land, and they made it their full time job to tend the land as well as tend to animals, and that's what they're actively doing. No blame there.
I don't think my neighbouring farmers are wilfully destroying heritage, they're just going about their business, and try to avoid the areas they have been told might be important. Standing stones are left in place nowadays, I did hear of some being moved in the old times.

I certainly don't like to see bits of digging and burying going on in the "communal" (??) hills nearby too, that would seem like a big no no to me, but it has been happening long before I moved there.

I have the Archeological Survey book for my county, and am able to locate all the bits and pieces around, there's mostly enclosures, standing stones, some ring forts, nothing spectacular really.

I'm just thinking to go back to the debate at hand, that if there were properly run societies of volunteer metal detectorists, legally allowed to survey areas one at a time, they may just help locate areas previously unnoticed or overlooked. And possibly save them from destruction.
People could indulge in their hobby in a safe and undestructive manner, as I'm sure it's done in a lot of countries. (I think the French have to ask for a local authority permission and be part of a club before they can legally metal detect an area).

Mountainsandh · 10-04-2012 9:19pm

robp wrote: »

It was fond in a bog. Bogs are not ploughed or bulldozed without licence. Organisations like Bord na Mona carry out archaeological field surveys before and during bog exploitation.
A monetary price has no place for such an iconic piece of Bronze Age jewellery. Even if a museum can afford to buy it, think how much it’s budget will be set back for the year or years.

Certain areas of the West have very special ancient landscapes (or farmscapes I should say), especially the Burren.

He had bought the field though, can you buy a Bord Na Mona field ??
And if they had surveyed the area/bog, then they had missed one hugely interesting piece of history, which with the help of a volunteer metal detecting club could have been located.

The monetary price should not even come into it, imo there should be zilch reward for these finds and a legal obligation to hand them over. I know, collectors black market and all that. I can guarantee you that there is a percentage of the population though who would happily donate the stuff to a museum because some people are still just interested in helping preserve heritage.

Look at photographers, who go around making a record of historical areas etc... it's only a tiny percentage of professional photographers who are taking pictures to sell them. Others do so because they enjoy the process, and enjoy the subject, and money doesn't come into it.

slowburner · 10-04-2012 10:00pm

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I can guarantee you that there is a percentage of the population though who would happily donate the stuff to a museum because some people are still just interested in helping preserve heritage.

We've debated this before, and it is impossible to provide figures for something hypothetical.
Granted, there may be a percentage of the population who would behave as you say - but I suspect that they would be in the minority.
There might well be a percentage of the population who would hand up €10,000 in cash if they found it - but I suspect that they would be in the minority.

What follows is the sad reality of the world we live in.

The illicit trafficking of antiquities is estimated to be superior to US$ 6 billion per year according to a research conducted by the United Kingdom’s House of Commons on July 2002. Ten years later, the UN report on transnational crimes calculated that the world traffic in cocaine reached US$ 72 billion; arms 52; heroine 33; counterfeiting 9.8; and cybercrime 1.253. Together with the trafficking in drugs and arms, the black market of antiquities and culture constitutes one of the most persistent illegal trades in the world....

....Information Kit produced by the Division of Public Information and the Culture Sector of UNESCO on the occasion of the 40th Anniversary of the 1970 Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property.
Paris 15/16 March 2011

(errors in text came about in translation from French to English presumably)

slowburner · 10-04-2012 10:04pm

Mountainsandh wrote: »

He had bought the field though, can you buy a Bord Na Mona field ??
And if they had surveyed the area/bog, then they had missed one hugely interesting piece of history, which with the help of a volunteer metal detecting club could have been located.

The monetary price should not even come into it, imo there should be zilch reward for these finds and a legal obligation to hand them over. I know, collectors black market and all that. I can guarantee you that there is a percentage of the population though who would happily donate the stuff to a museum because some people are still just interested in helping preserve heritage.

Look at photographers, who go around making a record of historical areas etc... it's only a tiny percentage of professional photographers who are taking pictures to sell them. Others do so because they enjoy the process, and enjoy the subject, and money doesn't come into it.

If you were offered a substantial sum for your pictures - would you not take it?
If you knew that there was a market for precisely the kind of pictures you enjoy taking, would you not be happy to get paid for something you enjoy doing anyway?

Mountainsandh · 11-04-2012 12:22am

Of course I would, if it's legal and it's there, I would.
Not if it's illegal and immoral though. Laws can be changed though, if there was a way to remove payment for such items and at the same time tighten up on trafficking...

...I don't know, maybe you're right there's just too many crooks. :mad:

Maudi · 11-04-2012 1:06am

slowburner wrote: »

Mountainsandh wrote: »

So, do metal detectorists dig a lot deeper than 45 cm ?

If a plough does not destroy context, then how much context is a one meter square hole destroying ? Again, weigh the destruction of that much context, against the fact that the artefact found may be the first one of its kind in Ireland, for example, that's possible, isn't it ?

Yes the farmers dig with a reason, absolutely. They have plenty I'm sure. It's not unusual near me to see fields dug out, some were in need of topsoil, another one brought in topsoil, another one needs to bury something, another one is creating a ditch, another one is moving a field boundary, another one is filling in a ditch, another one is draining a particular area, another one is digging out brambles and brush, and moving stones, another one is making a little bridge over there and so needs soil from over there, another one is digging test holes and applying for permission to build a house for his daughter.

It's fine and good to say from a distance that heritage is safer underground, but look, I will go around one of these days and take a series of pics to show you how much destruction of possible contextual heritage is going on around me in the countryside.

Sounds like there's complete agricultural mayhem going on down your way.
Probably the best thing to do, is research the history of the area before you get too worried about what might or might not be there.
The OSI and Monuments database viewer websites are indispensable for this kind of preliminary research, as I'm sure you well know.
Or you could ask the landowners if you could have a snoop to see if anything interesting has popped up.

I have to say that I agree with you to a certain extent: some farmers would like to see their farms looking like something from the prairies..imo. with crazy eu laws things for the farming community are despersate enough without accusing them of "agricultural mayhem" thats not a very fair statement...or that they want their farms looking like "prairies"...farmers dont deserve to be slated like that!!

Fighting Irish · 11-04-2012 1:16am

Mountainsandh wrote: »

So, do metal detectorists dig a lot deeper than 45 cm ?

Most detectors go 6"-14"

14" is ~35cm

slowburner · 11-04-2012 9:44am

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I'm just thinking to go back to the debate at hand, that if there were properly run societies of volunteer metal detectorists, legally allowed to survey areas one at a time, they may just help locate areas previously unnoticed or overlooked. And possibly save them from destruction.
People could indulge in their hobby in a safe and undestructive manner, as I'm sure it's done in a lot of countries. (I think the French have to ask for a local authority permission and be part of a club before they can legally metal detect an area).

I think there could be a place for a society of well trained and trustworthy metal detectorists, who could make a contribution by plotting and registering significant 'hits'.
But only if they don't dig.
Guaranteeing the trustworthiness of the people involved is the challenge.

slowburner · 11-04-2012 10:16am

Wandering a bit off topic here, but anyway...

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Slowburner it's not mayhem and it doesn't all happen at once. Simply I am surrounded by farmers, and every week one of them might be at something new. So one week, once is making an embankment, the week after I notice one doing drainage work, etc... It's their land, and they made it their full time job to tend the land as well as tend to animals, and that's what they're actively doing. No blame there.
I don't think my neighbouring farmers are wilfully destroying heritage, they're just going about their business, and try to avoid the areas they have been told might be important. Standing stones are left in place nowadays, I did hear of some being moved in the old times.

The picture you painted was one of intensive and devastating activity with heavy machinery. That's the impression I got.
I am surrounded by farms too, so I'm well familiar with the kind of works that go on, and when they go on.

Maudi wrote: »

imo. with crazy eu laws things for the farming community are despersate enough without accusing them of "agricultural mayhem" thats not a very fair statement...or that they want their farms looking like "prairies"...farmers dont deserve to be slated like that!!

Quite right.
The EU recommended a policy in the 70s of removing hedgerows, the thinking was, that too much land was lost to these unproductive boundaries.
Of course, not all farmers adopted the policy, but many who could afford to, did.
I happen to have a personal interest in field boundaries and especially dry stone walls. I don't like to see them obliterated, they can tell us so much about the past.

I said some farmers want their farms looking like prairies - not all farmers.
I know several who see any form of uncultivated ground as a crime.
I know of several sites which were obliterated by farmers, simply because there was nothing to prevent the farmer from doing so.
Equally, I know farmers who are champions of heritage.

I'm not having a go at farmers - far from it. I depend on the goodwill of many farmers for my own investigations.
Most of the obliteration came from a misguided EU policy but that's gone now and we have the more widely beneficial REPS scheme (for a while).

slowburner · 11-04-2012 10:25am

In this thread, we have seen a few people openly admit to owning metal detectors, and presumably using them to locate artifacts.
Most of these people also demonstrate a degree of concern over the possible effects of their hobby on the wider heritage. They have a conscience about their actions, in other words.
The fact that they are here, and prepared to debate, is probably an indication that they are genuinely concerned with heritage.

How many people with metal detectors, I wonder, have been following this thread but won't make a contribution, because they couldn't care less about our heritage?

RollYerOwn · 11-04-2012 11:17am

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Most detectors go 6"-14"

14" is ~35cm

As has been reiterated before.... Metal detectors detect to that depth - but that doesn't mean that a metal detectorist is going to dig only to that depth or move on from that location if successful.

If something of significance was discovered, a metal detectorist will more than likely dig a bit deeper and wider.

RozDev · 15-04-2012 11:23pm

slowburner wrote: »

How many people with metal detectors, I wonder, have been following this thread but won't make a contribution, because they couldn't care less about our heritage?

Hi Slowburner

I am a metal detectorist myself and have been following this thread from the very beginning, I even posted some replies a couple of years ago!

I don't think MD'ers are unwilling to make a contribution, i think it has more to do with the completely bigotted and immature sweeping generalisations like the quoted statement above that turn people off.

What a riduclous statement to make, completely unjustified proving you are a detectorphobe, rather than someone willing to engage in sensible discussion.

I would suspect its the massive antidetecting stance that is whats stopping detectorists for making meaningful contribution on this particular forum, and not any lack or interest in heritage.

On the contrary, it was my interest in heritage that got me started in the hobby in the first place. (over photograpghy, or stamp collecting or any other hobby!)

Although, as previously pointed out, a forum full of Archeologists would hardly be my starting point if you wanted to talk about all thinks detector related either, so I continue to muse its development.

slowburner · 16-04-2012 12:24pm

Hi to you too.
Oh I am perfectly willing to engage in 'sensible discussion'.
Let's keep it that way, shall we?
Calling me names and referring to my previous post as 'bigotted and immature' (sic), is not 'sensible discussion' it is argument ad hominem.

I stand by my statement that illegal metal detectorists couldn't care less about heritage.
If someone is prepared to break a law or laws, designed to protect something - then it necessarily follows that they do not respect the thing the laws are designed to protect.
Does someone who drives under the influence of alcohol respect the safety of other road users?
By refusing to abide by the law you necessarily demonstrate that you do not accept the principles and reasons for the enactment of the law. In this case, protection of Ireland's heritage is the reason for the enactment of the law.
Put simply, if you do not respect the laws, you do not respect the heritage.

A 'detectorphobe', as you call me, would be someone who is afraid of metal detectors.
I am not afraid of metal detectors nor am I afraid of the people who use these machines; that would be silly, but I do mistrust people who refuse to accept the legitimacy of the law, and I mistrust their motivation.

I am afraid of the misguided, misanthropic, solipsistic stubbornness of the people who willfully and repeatedly break the laws designed to protect the archaeological heritage of Ireland.
I am afraid of the fact that metal detectorists refuse to see the sound reasons for the existence of these laws.
I am afraid of the fact that metal detectorists for some bizarre reason, resent archaeologists - the professionals charged with scientific investigation of our history and ultimately, the preservation of our heritage.
I am afraid of the people who use these machines to collect metal artifacts for their personal collections, or those who hunt these artifacts for financial gain.
I am afraid of the ignorance and lack of education of the people who deliberately flout these laws.
I am afraid of the fact that metal detectorists believe they have a God given right to dig holes wherever they think there might be something they can take.
Above all, I am afraid that I find it very difficult to believe that people who buy and use a metal detector, genuinely have the best interests of Irish heritage at heart.
It might be too late, or too expensive, or too difficult for some people with a genuine interest in archaeology to study the subject formally - but just because a person has not got the resources to become professionally qualified, is no justification for buying a machine and digging holes.
There are a myriad of other ways to become constructively rather than destructively involved in the exploration of Irish heritage.

If you can answer this simple question, we might be able to have a discussion rather than name calling.

Why do you need to use a metal detector to explore your so-called interest in heritage?

kajo · 24-04-2012 2:07am

Kerry Radio Debate

Ron Byrne (AMDAI) Amateur Metal Detectors Association Of Ireland

Eamonn Kelly Keeper of Irish Antiquities at the National Museum

The archaeologist came across as aggressive and wanting it all his way.
He made a major effort to scaremonger those who might enjoy the hobby and went on to stereotype all metal detectorists.
Ron Byrne had his facts bang on and came across as a guy who knew his stuff and reasonable in his approach the archaeologist was full of guff.
Its clear from the interview that Mr Kelly likes to play with words and quote the law a lot without explaining the details.
The law quoted was just not relevant in the debate as it was already made clear Ron Byrne knew the law and wanted to abide by the law of the land.
A number of incidents were mentioned in the interview the derrynaflan chalice something that happened well over 30 years ago things have moved on.
Another one was a man arrested for illegally detecting on laytown beach about 12 years ago.
Mr Kelly never said why the man was arrested leading you to think all metal detecting on beaches is illegal and that is just not the case.
It turns out the man was arrested for metal detecting within 100 yards of an ancient passage grave and the man was here on holiday and did not know the area.
Eamonn never said it was illegal to buy own use or sell a metal detector.
This quoting of the law is eamonns and the museums way of intimidating people who don't know the law.
They spew the same quote out in their letters their way of keeping the metal detecting hobbyists scared and it works.
Their methods are crude and deceitful but effective just look around the internet and you can see the results.

Its amusing to hear Mr Kelly broadcast that you will get loads of money if you report finds on your own land.
We don't have a pot to pee in at the moment in this country and this man is offering rewards.
Blows away all that hot air the arch guys here go on about detectorists only wanting the money.... sure Mr Kelly wants to give you money.
A lot archaeologists are trying to maintain their own play ground a bit like the monkey with his hand in the jar.
I dont trust archaeologists or their so called students / helpers and i would not be surprised if this was one of the backdoors to the black market / ebay.
Ask most students what would they do if they found a €5 on the ground now think what they might do if they found a gold coin in a field.

Lets make it clear keep away from places that hold archaeological interests and research before you detect .. beach or land.

THE INTERVIEW
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8401144/metal_detecting/

slowburner · 24-04-2012 9:59am

The 16 minute radio interview does not contain any of the 'dialogue' quoted above.
It needs to be pointed out that this is exclusively an opinion of Ron Byrne's, which was made elsewhere.

Link, please?

kajo · 24-04-2012 1:03pm

Do you have a problem with your hearing? or your eyesight?

Fighting Irish · 24-04-2012 1:11pm

RollYerOwn wrote: »

As has been reiterated before.... Metal detectors detect to that depth - but that doesn't mean that a metal detectorist is going to dig only to that depth or move on from that location if successful.

If something of significance was discovered, a metal detectorist will more than likely dig a bit deeper and wider.

He asked a question, i answered it!

RollYerOwn wrote: »

If something of significance was discovered, a metal detectorist will more than likely dig a bit deeper and wider.

Way to generalise!

Fighting Irish · 24-04-2012 1:25pm

slowburner wrote: »

The 16 minute radio interview does not contain any of the 'dialogue' quoted above.
It needs to be pointed out that this is exclusively an opinion of Ron Byrne's, which was made elsewhere.

Link, please?

http://www.mirrorcreator.com/files/0LLHZWXX/radio_-_detectors.mp3_links

slowburner · 24-04-2012 8:10pm

kajo wrote: »

Do you have a problem with your hearing? or your eyesight?

No, I have no problems with either.
The way you structured your post, looked as if you were quoting from the radio interview.

kajo wrote: »

I dont trust archaeologists or their so called students / helpers and i would not be surprised if this was one of the backdoors to the black market / ebay.

Carry on, I would love to hear some more of these intelligent opinions - you are doing a great job of fighting the cause for metal detecting.

kajo · 24-04-2012 9:00pm

Carry on, I would love to hear some more of these intelligent opinions - you are doing a great job of fighting the cause for metal detecting.

I don't feel the need to fight any cause the law is the law we enjoy the hobby within the law so we can Metal Detect all we want.

Gee Bag · 25-04-2012 5:06pm

kajo wrote: »

A lot archaeologists are trying to maintain their own play ground a bit like the monkey with his hand in the jar.
I dont trust archaeologists or their so called students / helpers and i would not be surprised if this was one of the backdoors to the black market / ebay.
Ask most students what would they do if they found a €5 on the ground now think what they might do if they found a gold coin in a field.

Blah, blah, blah, blah,

I see from your other posts that your a Dublin taxi-driver. I don't like or trust an awful lot of those in your chosen profession (and I've probably met a hell of a lot more taxi-drivers than you have archies), but I don't go onto your threads or forums and insult them.

Fighting Irish · 26-04-2012 12:58am

Gee Bag wrote: »

Blah, blah, blah, blah,

I see from your other posts that your a Dublin taxi-driver. I don't like or trust an awful lot of those in your chosen profession (and I've probably met a hell of a lot more taxi-drivers than you have archies), but I don't go onto your threads or forums and insult them.

I think he is pointing out that all archs are humans and there are bad eggs everywhere

The Metal Detecting Debate. Keep all your MD questions and querys here!

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