Nagging girlfriends/wives

Dudess · 25-10-2008 5:19pm #1

I have three particular friends who nag their boyfriends/husband - ranging from telling them what they can and can't do, questioning every little thing, analysing everything they do on a night out, shouting and snapping at them, taking their moods out on them ("don't come NEAR me!"), always getting their way, telling them what to wear...

The degree of severity varies from friend to friend, but the three of them do some or all of the above. Another girl I'm friendly with is single - very attractive, intelligent, interesting, the works, but the way she speaks to men is terrible - shouting at them, bossing them about etc. She is a feminist and seems to feel it's ok, based on that, to "put men in their place" not because they've done anything to deserve it as individuals but because they are male.

Now you could tell me there's no need to be so gender-specific - that some people nag, rather than just women. And sure, there are men who nag their partners/wives too.
But it's how we perceive these things that is the problem. Women nagging men: "ah shur she wouldn't be a woman if she didn't" (guffaws all round) etc. It's a comedy thing, the stuff of wedding speeches that have people doubled over laughing - the mother, the mother-in-law, the new wife. What hilarity that they might make his life a misery! Women nagging men is ingrained in our culture as funny, or if not funny, a part of life that is inevitable for some men as eventually dying.
Men nagging women: "abusive, bullying bastard... would want to have his balls chopped off". It's serious and sinister, it's not the stuff of wedding speech jokes.

And the men I know who have to put up with such grief are not "pussies", they stand up for themselves, they advise the women to grow up and cop on, they lay down the law on how they deserve to be treated, they... leave. Why do some people do their best to push away the one they love (although they're doing the "loving" wrongly)?

Wibbs · 25-10-2008 5:42pm

I'd reckon it's for a few reasons. Some women are basically never satisfied with themselves and take that out on the men in their lives by "nagging". That's largely incurable, mainly because to get past that they would have to admit that their entire worldview is wrong. Not easy and more frightening than continuing on with the misery. They would rather be right than happy. Plus if that woman ever did change that worldview the chances are she would find herself in a life she doesn't need and is not good for her. If she's married with kids not so easy and that fear will keep her stuck even more.

Some nag basically because their men are weak. The women are looking for a reaction. Kinda like the disruptive child looking for boundaries from the parents. The "nagging woman" is frustrated with the passivity of the man in her life. Is frustrated at herself for choosing him in the first place. He sits there not reacting so that sets her off even more. Their relationship once based on "passion" has run it's course and now it's based on oneupmanship, familiarity and little else. Sadly all too common. The woman seeing tis gets more and more frustrated with herself. Sex goes off the menu as she no longer respects him as a man and partner. She no longer respects herself for making that choice or not "changing" him, which crashes her already dodgy self esteem so that kills libido completely.

The above two scenarios have lots of crossover. It boils down to unfulfilled dreams, realisation of incompatibility, the loss of respect and attraction, internally and externally. This comes out as nagging and or other things.

Some nag because they think if they say it more and more he'll finally listen. Word to the wise, he heard her first time, he simply does not want to do it. Men isten once maybe twice to a command(which is what it is) and decide on the spot, yes or no. They then log it or usually forget about it entirely, so the woman sounds like a dog at a bone and he clams up even more because she sounds kinda like a whiny child to him(even though she has as much right to ask for something).

In my experience, those women you speak of will have a really crappy emotional life 5 or 10 years hence. Their men will have the same, though will find it easier to leave and move on. Nagging or emotional argument in either gender is a very bad plan.

It's very very common though as you say yourself. It's one of the reasons I would be very wary of marriage. The good supportive mutually advantageous long term* couples I know are very few and far between. certainly they are massively swamped in numbers by the ones I know that are bad.

*if the relationship is under 3 to 4 years in duration, then you can't really know as the heart(and wobbly bits) is still ruling over the head. Come back in 10 years and see then.

LolaDub · 25-10-2008 5:44pm

I think the possibility of spending your life single is largely unacceptable in society and as such people have forgotten about the wonderful things that can bring people together. Some resort to playing games to keep their partners around. I think some people dissect things too much also, always looking for a hidden meaning when theres none. While these things drive some people away they do mindfcuk others enough into sticking around as some people find the drama and the chase such a turn on. Personally i think if you end up with someone who plays these games to keep you will just create far worse problems down the road.

I can't count the amount of times my friends have said ok i'll wait x amount of time before responding to the text and i'll say xyz, we'll arrange to meet oh so far into the future so i don't seem to eager etc etc .......Personally i don't see whats wrong with just meeting someone seeing if you get along, if you do great, if not nothing lost and drop all the bs

Wibbs · 25-10-2008 5:46pm

Dudess wrote: »

Why do some people do their best to push away the one they love (although they're doing the "loving" wrongly)?

Because they don't feel they deserve love. Sounds a bit oprah but it's true IMHO. Women are particularly prone to this. Again IMHO. So they push the person away, thus agreeing with their inner voice that says "see, I told you he would leave..". Throw in some women's tendency to try to fix everyone else (but themselves) emotionally and it's a recipe for disaster.

Dudess · 25-10-2008 5:52pm

Yeah, the three attached girls seem so, so confident on the surface... but one of them has serious self esteem issues, another has been let down and hurt so many times she's engineered a defence system (to be fair, she would be the mildest "offender") and the other girl... I think she's just bossy really.

The girl who's not attached, well she's a friend of a friend, but I get the impression she's just an aggressive person who mistakes this for feistiness and assertiveness.

I get on great with all four girls and they have lots of wonderful qualities - two of them are among my best friends - it's just... I see how they treat their men/men in general and I fear for these relationships. One will absolutely disintegrate if her boyfriend breaks up with her - and he could very well do (in fact he did already and she was beyond hysterical. I thought she'd go easy on him once they got back together, but she doesn't...)

LolaDub · 25-10-2008 6:03pm

Sometimes women who think they are feminist are just bullies-not all the time but i have seen a few use the feminism as an excuse for ordering men around, being excessively critical of everything, not 'allowing' them out or to see friends or telling them what they can and can't eat. Then there is the other side of some feminism that just comes off looking crazy - refusing to walk through doors that are held for them-dissecting a bill so they pay their exact share etc....you know when you see a calculator out on the dinner table its going bad! Having said this i don't think its feminism at all, its just the excuse some women use to hide behind being bullying/controlling.

Guys do it too but as dudess said if a guy was very critical of a woman and constantly ordered her about and was rude, most would view it as abuse, when its a woman its a he's so under the thumb joke har de har har...

Bottom line is there is no excuse for a lack of manners in relationships. If you can't share common courtesy with one another then you'll never be able to share a life with each other.

Dudess · 25-10-2008 6:04pm

Yep, feminism is not about bullying.

Wibbs · 25-10-2008 6:05pm

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, the three attached girls seem so, so confident on the surface...

Agression and or stridency in people is often based on fear and often confused with confidence. Truly centered people, often appear quite passive at first sight. They don't need to carry a big stick as it were. They don't need to prove their worth.

but one of them has serious self esteem issues,

Straigtforward enough.

another has been let down and hurt so many times she's engineered a defence system (to be fair, she would be the mildest "offender")

Now she could be just lumbered with crappy luck, but I have often found that people who have successive partners that let them down are engineering those relationships to fail right from the get go.

and the other girl... I think she's just bossy really.

Why does she feel she needs to be though? Really powerful men and women in society tend not to be bossy. Yes they may fly off the handle every so often, but generally they just come across as being in control of themselves, first and foremost. Others naturally follow that. Why? Because you will trust someone who trusts themselves (or appears like that).

The girl who's not attached, well she's a friend of a friend, but I get the impression she's just an aggressive person who mistakes this for feistiness and assertiveness.

Bingo and its the root of aggression that she should try to look at. Yes some are born more forward than others, but when it comes to aggression there's something amiss.

I get on great with all four girls and they have lots of wonderful qualities - two of them are among my best friends - it's just... I see how they treat their men/men in general and I fear for these relationships.

In fairness so would I.

One will absolutely disintegrate if her boyfriend breaks up with her - and he could very well do (in fact he did already and she was beyond hysterical. I thought she'd go easy on him once they got back together, but she doesn't...)

For the very reason I said earlier. This is what friends and family and lovers may miss, she wants it to fail, or at the very least expects it to. If this sounds wrong, why does she continue to sabotage the relationship in the precise way that will cause it to fail. Deep down she knows this too, but can't stop herself.

SeekUp · 25-10-2008 6:09pm

But I don’t think they’re always pushing away their loved ones intentionally -- I think some people are taught that others can be molded into who you want them to be and you don’t have to “put up with” them as they are. More so with women especially, comes the idea that they can “get” a man, improve his dress/speech/habits/etc. into something that’s . . . well . . . I don’t know, more presentable at her side -- and then, she gets a pat on the back for “fixing” him.

Funny enough, if a man does that -- suggesting things he’d like her to wear, how he wants her to look and behave -- he’s controlling. I think it’s regarded as more of a nuisance when a woman does it, maybe because it’s considered odd if a man cares about these things? Because it’s more likely that a woman does it as opposed to a man? One of the many (many) double standards out there.

But then again, if you’re raised to believe that people are like antiques - that you have to hunt for a good piece and then lovingly restore it to its best - that’s now you treat them. Personally, I think to think of people as garage sale items: sold “as is.”

Wibbs · 25-10-2008 6:17pm

LolaDub wrote: »

Bottom line is there is no excuse for a lack of manners in relationships. If you can't share common courtesy with one another then you'll never be able to share a life with each other.

Nail on the head.

As for the men in their lives who take this. I would contend that they're to blame for their own unhappiness by not taking a definitive stand. I have a mate who would be a very strong centered person. Very nice genuine guy.

Many moons ago, one of his exes kicked off one night for no reason(to do with him at least). His response(pretty much verbatim)? "Are you quite finished? OK then please calm down. If that's not possible please go back to our seat and wait until you do. You're making others feel uncomfortable". He then turned away and continued the conversation with everyone else. She didn't know where to look but she left. At the time, I was like WTF as TBH I would have been embarrassed if it had happened to me back then. I asked him why he said what he said and his take was that he refused to deal with someone(male or female) continuing to act like a spoiled child. That if she didn't learn to act like an adult why should he treat her like one. I agree with him too.

Funny thing was, she stormed off cursing him. He admitted upset about the whole thing to me, but his decision stood. Fast forward an hour and we leave the club and here she is crying in the rain waiting for him. She didn't last long.

He's with a very sound woman now. Well the equal of him that he learns from all the time and vice versa. If he had gone along with that ex and ended up with her his life would have been hell.

Dudess · 25-10-2008 6:23pm

Excellent strategy by your mate Wibbs. Yeah, my friends' blokes do the following: argues back so it's back and forth and back and forth and suddenly the night's over; says nothing and waits til they get home to have words with her; the other guy (who broke up with her for a bit) seems to attempt something along the lines of what your friend does, but not as decisively: "cop on and calm down would you?" - that kinda thing...

Wibbs · 25-10-2008 6:25pm

SeekUp wrote: »

But I don’t think they’re always pushing away their loved ones intentionally

I honestly believe they are, but it's not anywhere near the surface. I do agree your angle is a big part of it too. It still boils down to her not being happy with herself for a few reasons. Now you could argue that women have the role of kinda like social brakes on the extremes of maleness. Part of that is making them more responsible. That's fine and cool if it's to a limited degree, but when it spirals out of control then you're into problems.

-- I think some people are taught that others can be molded into who you want them to be and you don’t have to “put up with” them as they are. More so with women especially, comes the idea that they can “get” a man, improve his dress/speech/habits/etc. into something that’s . . . well . . . I don’t know, more presentable at her side -- and then, she gets a pat on the back for “fixing” him.

Oh I agree, women are often looked to to fix those around them, but look beyond the pat on the back. Why does she feel better about changing him? It bolsters her self esteem. It makes her feel good that her presence made him better. Of course if and when he does change into what she thinks she wants and will get her that pat on the back, I will put good money that she'll lose interest at that point.

Personally, I think to think of people as garage sale items: sold “as is.”

Agreed and any polishing needed comes from them with help from me and vice versa. Every good relationship I've come out of I've learned something about myself. Every bad relationship I've come out of I've usually learned something about others. Either way I learn something though. Can't be bad.

25-10-2008 6:30pm

Nagging is one of the reasons myself and the ex were not meant to be.
He wanted a woman who would control the minutia of his day to day life.
And live for doing so just like mamie.
Not the arguementative bullying aspect that dudess percieves amongst her friends.
But he wanted me to be the boss, To tell him how to wear what, what to eat, what to do with his money etc.
There are many people out there, both male and female. Who would rather someone else bore the responsibilty for organising their lives.
I guess if that is how you have functioned your whole life, it is scarey contemplating an other way of operating.

metrovelvet · 25-10-2008 6:30pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I asked him why he said what he said and his take was that he refused to deal with someone(male or female) continuing to act like a spoiled child. That if she didn't learn to act like an adult why should he treat her like one. I agree with him too.

Funny thing was, she stormed off cursing him. He admitted upset about the whole thing to me, but his decision stood. Fast forward an hour and we leave the club and here she is crying in the rain waiting for him. She didn't last long.

.

I can see what he was doing but there is still a better strategy. When someone act like a child, and you treat them like one, then you are taking on a parental role and then it is too easy for them to fall into the trap of behaving like a child again, which is exactly what she did. If he refused to fall into her game of getting him to parent her and acted as an adult, not as a parent, thus treating her like an adult, it is likely the evening would have ended much more positively. It sounds like this dynamic was at play for a while before this any how.

But, I am confused, is this thread about nagging, as in taking out the garbage, or about non stop haranguing?

With nagging, its a vicious circle because the listener just tunes it out and then the nagger keeps nagging to try to get them to listen!

What do I say to my friends who complain and nag to husbands and boyfriends? Hey... you cant teach a pig to sing, you'll only frustrate yourself and irritate the pig. Change something about you and see if that has an effect.

LolaDub · 25-10-2008 6:34pm

I have to say i've heard quite a few times from people both men and women saying their current oh is 'the one'. When i'd say wow true love congrats i usually get some response along the lines of well they're close enough so they'll do, tends to be followed by a few i can change them comments. Would you be with someone who viewed you as close enough to what they want

i can't see many people walking down the aisle to share with someone who thinks they'll do...

Dudess · 25-10-2008 6:36pm

I'd subscribe to the "sh1t, I'm not getting any younger, I'd better settle for... that guy. Not great but I'll mould him into my dream man" theory.

Awfully sad...

LolaDub · 25-10-2008 6:45pm

Dudess wrote: »

I'd subscribe to the "sh1t, I'm not getting any younger, I'd better settle for... that guy. Not great but I'll mould him into my dream man" theory.

Awfully sad...

Its extremely sad and its forcing your happiness on the people you bring into that situation like the husband/boyfriend, children, families and friends etc. When someone makes that choice its a very selfish one for themselves only

SeekUp · 25-10-2008 6:47pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Of course if and when he does change into what she thinks she wants and will get her that pat on the back, I will put good money that she'll lose interest at that point.

Then it's onto the antique shops . . .

Wibbs · 25-10-2008 6:59pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

I can see what he was doing but there is still a better strategy. When someone act like a child, and you treat them like one, then you are taking on a parental role and then it is too easy for them to fall into the trap of behaving like a child again, which is exactly what she did.

True, but sadly for her she was a child emotionally. I would be of the opinion that if someone acts like that consistently, it's not my obligation to engage or change them, it's theirs. Indeed I will engage them only to stop further discomfort in those around us.

If he refused to fall into her game of getting him to parent her and acted as an adult, not as a parent, thus treating her like an adult, it is likely the evening would have ended much more positively.

IMHO that's what he did. If someone is acting like a child, trying to engage them as an adult, usually results in escalation in my experience. Looks good on paper but in reality. I dunno. It hasn't for me certainly. What I have done, when similar has happened is just agree with them with a smile. tell them I am hearing what they are saying and agree that they have a point and then continue on as before. If they then continue I'll ask them to control themselves and if that's not posssible then ask them politely to leave

It sounds like this dynamic was at play for a while before this any how.

Yes you're right. Well kinda. It was fine with her for the first few months apparently. Now this guy is incredibly easy going. I'm pretty easy going but this guy makes buddha look twitchy. So she didn't really kick off into madness territory until later. Actually it was over the space of a month it built up and up. I've had that one myself.

You mention acting like a child. I find more and more people, men and women act like children emotionally. I used to think it was because I was getting old:D but I do think theres more of that about. Given there has never been so much information available to so many so easily, you would think it should be less, but I see men and women acting like early teen types well beyond the age when they should have known better. I mean everyone does to some degree or other. Hell I do, but it seems more to me somehow.

LolaDub wrote:

Would you be with someone who viewed you as close enough to what they want i can't see many people walking down the aisle to share with someone who thinks they'll do...

No way. Very bad plan, but I've seen many people do it when they hit their 30's. Mostly women, but some men too(biological clock diffs there I suppose). I know people who got hitched in their 30's to people they would defo not have touched with someone elses bargepole in their 20's and not in a good way either.

My take on it is simple. I'm happy with me. Yes life can be up and down, but it would be up and down with someone with me. I would like someone to share the good and the bad, but I really don't need that. The need is the thing. I need food, shelter and companionship. I have many true friends, eat bugger all:D and have a roof over my head. I consider myself very very lucky. Anything beyond that is a bonus that is nice but as I say I don't require or need it.

So much in life we think we need and then when we get it we find it doesn't fulfill us or fulfills us only for a time and is rarely what we thought. For me at least coming to that conclusion has made me a much happier person. I've only really gotten, truly gotten that quite recently. Wish i copped it earlier. Would have saved a lot of grief:D I get grouchy sometimes too though.:P:D

LolaDub · 25-10-2008 7:23pm

Need is a concept which is mostly lost on people nowadays. Its more about what they want and what they can get. If people knew the difference between want and need grafton st would be very empty:p

Wibbs · 25-10-2008 7:25pm

Very true. It's amazing the bull we all fall for though.

metrovelvet · 25-10-2008 7:33pm

Part of maturity is learning how not to be selfish. Another big part of it is acceptance.

Oddly, imo, this gets harder to do as we get older.

Wibbs · 25-10-2008 7:49pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Oddly, imo, this gets harder to do as we get older.

Really? I found it easier. I think people need at least one timeout in their life to step back. I've had that so maybe that's why.

I reckon if you go from school to college to job, go out with a few people along the way and then settle down, into and for a life you think you want, when you've never really stood back and thought much beyond the obvious, then I could see how getting older would make that more ingrained. I suppose habit and the fact that to acknowledge you screwed up in choices would be a hard pill to swallow.

I suppose the only thing I've learned is that I know a fair bit, but I don't know so much more and have to keep trying to figure it out. Never will mind, but trying is everything. Jebus gettin fierce deep here.

Funny I think this is actually on topic. Nagging and that friction often comes from not stepping back and seeing what is good for you. When that gets halfway figured out it should be much much easier to see what's good for those you love. Nagging is born of frustration. On both sides. The nagger and the naggee.

MJOR · 25-10-2008 7:54pm

I think when you meet someone both of you undergo little changes that is a fact. It should be a natural progression though and generally they are only little ones. Like watching TV programmes maybe you wouldn't have watched before because you're together or getting wholegrain bread instead because your OH prefers it and you're not bothered.

I think women today tend to be of the opinion that it's ok to adopt a fierce approach to men and dating. I personally would never try and change my OH nor would he try to change me.

It's such a double standard that women think it's ok to belittle men and a lot of the time resort to childish tactics to get what they want. Nobody is perfect that is a fact (except maybe Wibbs and Dudess as they generally get things right:D). Everyone has little things about them that may annoy another person. But it's ridiculous to try and mould someone into the person YOU want them to be.

Bossy is different to strong and independant. That is the main point i think. But most men won't put up with it and good on them.

metrovelvet · 25-10-2008 7:56pm

I think what I mean is that as people get older they get better at getting what they want faster. We have the means to eat what we want and when we want, we are living in an age of entitlement and rights, victimhood, and litigation. And this I believe has trickled down into how we relate to each other.

THe step back is important. To stop, before you start something and ask, is it worth it? I would say 6 out of 10 times it isnt.

Nagging, is also a symptom of poor communication, that something has gone haywire there. and there is nothing that cant be solved with good communication.

fits · 25-10-2008 8:02pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Funny I think this is actually on topic. Nagging and that friction often comes from not stepping back and seeing what is good for you. When that gets halfway figured out it should be much much easier to see what's good for those you love. Nagging is born of frustration. On both sides. The nagger and the naggee.

Yes this is so true. I'll admit, I have behaved badly in the past. I can recognise it now and the causes. Long term I'd prefer to be on my own than behave like that in a relationship. In my case, incompatibility has been the root cause.

Dudess · 25-10-2008 8:16pm

MJOR wrote: »

Nobody is perfect that is a fact (except maybe Wibbs and Dudess as they generally get things right:D).

LOL

Many, many thanks MJOR but I and quite a number of others here are very much gonna have to disagree with that one!!

Latchy · 25-10-2008 8:18pm

Very true

Pherekydes · 25-10-2008 8:38pm

Nothing like a nice light topic for a Saturday night.

My ex-wife used to take great pleasure in telling me "Every man gets the nag they deserve." When do you take responsibility for your own actions?

Last night, after a pleasant night visiting my sister, we (current oh and myself) arrived home at 1 am and as soon as she walked in the door she started moaning about our house (as compared to my sister's). Like at 1 am? Why? When I tell her to chill she invariably tells me to shut up, usually with the addendum, "I'm tired/stressed." Who doesn't get tired or stressed from time to time? Why take it out on (supposed) loved ones?

metrovelvet · 25-10-2008 8:40pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

Nothing like a nice light topic for a Saturday night.

My ex-wife used to take great pleasure in telling me "Every man gets the nag they deserve." When do you take responsibility for your own actions?

Last night, after a pleasant night visiting my sister, we (current oh and myself) arrived home at 1 am and as soon as she walked in the door she started moaning about our house (as compared to my sister's). Like at 1 am? Why? When I tell her to chill she invariably tells me to shut up, usually with the addendum, "I'm tired/stressed." Who doesn't get tired or stressed from time to time? Why take it out on (supposed) loved ones?

Isn't it strange how some save their best behavior for strangers and worst for loved ones?

Latchy · 25-10-2008 8:46pm

A lot of verbal abuse froma loved ones is dealt with by tolerence .He has to tolerate her and her him .There has to be a happy balance otherwise like an overloaded ship the relationship will eventually sink .:)

Nagging girlfriends/wives

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