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Prostitution

  • 22-10-2008 7:36pm
    #1
    The_Minister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭


    I'm not really looking for an overarching kinda debate, if I was, I'd head to humanities.
    I've just heard a fair number of women say (in private, and in the media), that the existance of prostitutes is degrading to women. I've even heard it from women who would normally be very good at saying "this is my business, and that's hers", and they want to ban it, because of that.

    I have to admit that I don't really understand this arguement (you see it applied to strip-clubs too). The existance of male prostitutes doesn't bother me in the slightest.

    Do any of the boards sisterhood feel this way?


Comments

  • #2
    Ghost Train
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,386 ✭✭✭✭Ghost Train


    they want to ban it, because of that

    i was under the impression it was banned...


  • #3
    The_Minister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    eolhc wrote: »
    i was under the impression it was banned...
    Solicitation is.


  • #4
    Cmol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 732 ✭✭✭Cmol


    I do and I don't

    I believe that it should be legalised, as it is in NZ and other countries - I think no matter what you say about women that get into prostitution they deserve laws and the protection that they can have. If they are raped or abused they deserve the right to be able to go to the guards without worrying about ramifications themselves.

    I believe that any woman who gets into prostitution, gets in to it because they have hit rock bottom and have nowhere else to go, whether its to support a drug habit or purely to survive, and there is noone on this earth who could make me believe that they don't deserve the right to protection by the law.

    In saying that, I do see it as a degrading career choice, what is banning it going to do? Force it further underground than it already is? Where does that leave the women themselves?


  • #5
    GirlInterrupted
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭GirlInterrupted


    I completely agree with cmol, I would like to see sex workers protected by law, working in secure environments, and given full access to healthcare and well educated in disease prevention.

    I have no objection to prostitutes working these ideal conditions, but the fact is that this would drive up the price, and there will always be a market for cheaper services, probably provided by the more desperate sex workers driven into the trade by drug dependancy, pimps, or sheer desperation.

    What I don't see happening is prostitution becoming a respected career choice.

    The existance of lap dancing clubs is a little different. I'm not sure how I feel about them to be honest, but I do feel that a dozen lads taking pictures of a barely clad dancers privates with their mobile phones objectifies the woman - and by extention - all women.


  • #6
    cuckoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭cuckoo


    GirlInterrupted wrote: »
    What I don't see happening is prostitution becoming a respected career choice.

    Exactly, i really don't evisage children announcing during career talks in school "i wanna work in the sex industry when i grow up".

    It's not a career that I think people go into by choice, for every story that crappy women's magazines do about middle class girls working as escorts to put themselves through Oxford or Cambridge there must be thousands of men and women who work as prostitutes through desperation.

    However, it's not called 'the oldest profession' for nothing - and it'll be around whether legalised or not.

    So, my thoughts on it can be summed up as it's a sadness some people feel they have no other options - but it doesn't degrade 'women' in general.

    What degrades Irish society in my opinion is that we cannot be pragmatic, realistic and compassionate about it. There should be health and safety inspectors for sex workers places of work, panic buttons that connect to garda stations and sex workers should be allowed form co-op type brothels.


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  • #7
    MJOR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭MJOR


    Well legalising it would certainly regulate it to a degree. It is the oldest profession known. Part of me thinks that if it's the individuals decision to do it then why am i to argue. The other part of me thinks that some women are forced into it.

    I have a live and let live attitude. But only if its the persons own decision


  • #8
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    I think prostitution should be legalised but only to make life easier for prostitutes, not for their clients. The consequences of illegal prostitution are human trafficking, exploitation of the prostitutes and removal of their safety nets, such as the police and health services.

    But I do see most prostitution as the result of:
    a) poverty and lack of options for many people around the world
    b) some humans' ability to view another human being as nothing more than a commodity and often ignore their very obvious suffering.

    I say most, because I do think some people are happy to work in the industry and not all prostitutes are suffering terribly on a poor wage. And I see little difference between men visiting women in hotel rooms and young men "charming" older female tourists in places like the Caribbean in return for money and other valuable items.

    Although, what does it say that the vast majority of both male and female prostitutes clients are men?

    Edit: Just thought of something. Sometimes, a woman is taken to represent all other women, which isn't really fair. So I don't think it's fair to say that one woman working as a prostitute necessarily reflects badly on all women. Just as in the same way, one male prostitute is never considered to "represent" all other men. So I don't think that's a good argument against it. Although, I have heard feminist arguments about prostitution and strip clubs and how they are basically a way of ensuring that women's bodies are always available to men - there is some truth to it..


  • #9
    rediguana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭rediguana


    I'm male and I don't give a damn about the plight of male prostitutes.

    Wherever prostitution is legalised, the number of men visiting prostitutes increases markedly. Is this a good thing? Probably not. For many men (not me, I have a wife), it's too easy if there's a brothel you can go to. I used to work with a guy in Australia who would go to a prostitute on his lunch break. The mystery is how he got any work done in the afternoon. I'd just want a steak and a nap.


  • #10
    BKtje
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,063 ✭✭✭BKtje


    Wherever prostitution is legalised, the number of men visiting prostitutes increases markedly. Is this a good thing? Probably not.
    Bad for who? The prostitutes or for society in general?


  • #11
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    In Amsterdam they have legalized and heavily regulated prostitution industry. It's a lot safer (for all involved) than unregulated illegal prostitution.


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  • #12
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Galvasean wrote: »
    In Amsterdam they have legalized and heavily regulated prostitution industry. It's a lot safer (for all involved) than unregulated illegal prostitution.

    Yes. But it's important to recognise that illegal prostitution and human trafficking still takes place, even in Amsterdam. So legalisation is part of the solution, but not the whole solution.


  • #13
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Oh of course not. It's not a simple case of legalizing it will make all the problems go away. but at least in this instance there it's not a complete taboo subject.
    In a place where prostitution was illegal a girl going to the police for help (abusive pimp or what not) is just as likely to be fined or thrown in jail than helped.


  • #14
    pretty-in-pink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭pretty-in-pink


    I think it should be legalised to keep in safe, for them and anyone who would use them. I don't think its degrading to women, I don't think that its a good career choice personally. However, sex sells, so why not sell it (once its safe and clean)? Its not like anyone is forcing people to use prostitutes, they are meerly filling a hole in the market.


  • #15
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    pretty-in-pink wrote: »
    However, sex sells, so why not sell it (once its safe and clean)?
    Well even when it is clean and safe, the prostitute is always at risk of catching something from the client. Assuming the prostitute is legal and clean, the client should have little to worry about but normally with legal prostitution it's the prostitute that has to prove she's clean with no similar requirement for the client.
    pretty-in-pink wrote: »
    Its not like anyone is forcing people to use prostitutes, they are meerly filling a hole in the market.
    Well I think the bigger question is are any prostitutes being forced into it and the evidence shows that some are.

    And why exactly do people feel the need to go to a prostitute?


  • #16
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    taconnol wrote: »
    Well even when it is clean and safe, the prostitute is always at risk of catching something from the client.

    Well in Amsterdam condoms are an absolute must - no exceptions. Also a prostitute there can turn down any customer for whatever reason they see fit. So I guess if they see something they think might be STI related they can just say no. That and the condoms should be fairly encompassing.
    taconnol wrote:
    And why exactly do people feel the need to go to a prostitute?

    For no strings attached sex with a woman who would normally be out of their league. (Well, that's perhaps the most obvious one)


  • #17
    BKtje
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,063 ✭✭✭BKtje


    And why exactly do people feel the need to go to a prostitute?
    Sex without strings attached.
    Acts that wife/girlfriend wouldn't do.
    Easily available sex.
    Younger men wanting (the)experience etc

    ..the list is really almost endless.


  • #18
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    If a male or female chooses to do it solely on their own volition (no habit, no pimp); they are in sole control of their earnings, and in a safe, regulated environment, I have no issue with it.

    As for the issue of why people go to prostitutes: I don't go, and I don't particularly care why others go. Just as long as the above conditions are fulfilled.


  • #19
    pretty-in-pink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭pretty-in-pink


    stovelid wrote: »
    If a male or female chooses to do it solely on their own volition (no habit, no pimp); they are in sole control of their earnings, and in a safe, regulated environment, I have no issue with it.

    As for the issue of why people go to prostitutes: I don't go, and I don't particularly care why others go. Just as long as the above conditions are fulfilled.

    I wholeheartedly agree


  • #20
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    stovelid wrote: »
    If a male or female chooses to do it solely on their own volition (no habit, no pimp); they are in sole control of their earnings, and in a safe, regulated environment, I have no issue with it.

    That pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter.


  • #21
    Reku
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Reku


    From reading the posts so far I see the following pros and cons:
    Pro - Can be better controlled so as to ensure that all workers are participating of their own volition

    Con - could be seen as a social acceptance of the use of prostitutes, encouraging people to do so.

    Pro - can ensure regular screening for STDs, protecting both clients, and prostitutes (fear of being prevented from continuing to work could act as a deterant to them permitting unprotected sex)

    Pro - prostitutes could readily go to the gardai should someone try rough them up or anything

    Con - May cause some males to further objectify women in general

    Con - Will further cement the commercialisation of sex and use of it as a commodity for trade.


    Even from these it's clear that simply legalising it alone won't help that much and planning and rules for operating as a prostitute would have to be put in place and even then you'll still get people abusing loopholes to take advantage of women who are not in a good position to look out for themselves as regards this.


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  • #22
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Well in Amsterdam (sorry, only example I'm familiar with) each prostitute has their own room/booth. Supposedly each room has at least one panic button they can press should a client become aggressive, refuse to leave etc. at that point security guards are never more than a few seconds away the rooms are linked to a larger complex where security/offices reside). Apparently there are more security staff employed in the red light district than prostitutes.
    It all seems pretty above the board there. I can't speak for other places though.


  • #23
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Victimless crime.
    farohar wrote: »
    Con - could be seen as a social acceptance of the use of prostitutes, encouraging people to do so.

    But if it already socially accepted, what's the harm in encouraging people to take it up?


  • #24
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    B-K-DzR wrote: »
    Sex without strings attached.
    Acts that wife/girlfriend wouldn't do.
    Easily available sex.
    Younger men wanting (the)experience etc

    ..the list is really almost endless.
    I would add:

    -selfishness - no need to please other partner
    -laziness - no need to make effort to attract someone
    -issues with responsibility
    -extreme desire to have entirely devoted woman
    -issues of control over women - I read of one case where a man wanted the prostitute to give him a blowjob in front of a mirror and he would hold a bundle of $50 notes over her -to give him that feeling of control.

    My point is, all of these things are perfectly possible emotions among women. So why don't more women visit prostitutes? And please don't respond with the myth that any woman can go out and get any guy she wants to sleep with her-it just isn't true.


  • #25
    The_Minister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    pretty-in-pink wrote: »
    Its not like anyone is forcing people to use prostitutes, they are meerly filling a hole in the market.
    Classy:D

    I think one of the main reasons guys use prostitutes is to get women who are beyond them do their own ugliness/ lack of social graces etc.
    Although the classic image of an emancipated drug-monkey trading head for drugs kinda puts a stick in the spokes of that theory.


  • #26
    Dragan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    It should be noted that women also go to male prostitutes for sex. But that never really comes up in these conversations.


  • #27
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    reading this thread reminds me of a story as told by a famous british femail film and tv star when when working along side a now dead upercrust film star she was taken to one side and asked{in a posh voice}if she could help him out it, seems he had a young nephew comming of age so it was traditional for his class to find a discrete young lady to show the boy how to have sex--saves them going to prostitutes


  • #28
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    Dragan wrote: »
    It should be noted that women also go to male prostitutes for sex. But that never really comes up in these conversations.

    Has anyone on the ladies lounge every gone to a male prostiute for sex?
    Would anyone here know where to even seek out a male prostitute?
    I wouldnt, but If I was a bloke I could go to any seedy lapdancing club, waterloo road in Dublin,dock road in Limerick etc etc.
    Male prostitition and female prostitution are not really comparable, unless theres hundreds of Eastern European men being trafficked into the country that I dont know about............


  • #29
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    panda100 wrote: »
    Has anyone on the ladies lounge every gone to a male prostiute for sex?
    Would anyone here know where to even seek out a male prostitute?
    I wouldnt, but If I was a bloke I could go to any seedy lapdancing club, waterloo road in Dublin,dock road in Limerick etc etc.
    Male prostitition and female prostitution are not really comparable, unless theres hundreds of Eastern European men being trafficked into the country that I dont know about............
    I'm a male prostitute.

    Your point is void.


  • #30
    The_Minister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    panda100 wrote: »
    Has anyone on the ladies lounge every gone to a male prostiute for sex?
    Would anyone here know where to even seek out a male prostitute?
    I wouldnt, but If I was a bloke I could go to any seedy lapdancing club, waterloo road in Dublin,dock road in Limerick etc etc.
    Male prostitition and female prostitution are not really comparable, unless theres hundreds of Eastern European men being trafficked into the country that I dont know about............
    Ask in The George.

    They'll sort you out.


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  • #31
    badolepuddytat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭badolepuddytat


    Never used or met a male or female prostitute.......that I know of :)http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57670790&postcount=60
    The_Minister wrote: »
    I think one of the main reasons guys use prostitutes is to get women who are beyond them do their own ugliness/ lack of social graces etc.
    Although the classic image of an emancipated drug-monkey trading head for drugs kinda puts a stick in the spokes of that theory.

    I think people who use prostitutes do it for power and satisfy their own urges in an easy/lazy manner (not having to risk rejection trying to pick someone up or talk a partner into an act). I doubt that the man/woman performing the act for pay is 'beyond them' in the customers eyes. I'd imagine that customers feel ashamed of themselves that they indulge themselves with someone who's clearly down on their luck and would be anywhere else in the world than with them. Hence they resent the prostitute for 'making' them feel bad and want to degrade them more.

    It's very hard to offer protection (legal, physical, sexual) workers in the sex industry, particular at the bottom of the pecking order without some sort of legalisation of the industry. I feel sorry for all involved in the industry, people who feel the need to pay someone for intimacy and the people stuck servicing them.


  • #32
    Dragan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    panda100 wrote: »
    Male prostitition and female prostitution are not really comparable, unless theres hundreds of Eastern European men being trafficked into the country that I dont know about............


    Roughly between 100,000 and 170,000 males will be moved across borders against there will every year. About 50% of those will be minors.

    Granted the majority of them will end up as forced labour, child soldiers or else just a happy life in slavery.

    I am unsure of the percentage that end up forced into the sex trade but the simple fact is that it does happen.

    That is still a lot of people to dimiss.

    Since when did human rights issue become about gender, and not about people?


  • #33
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    panda100, while I would say that while there is a far greater number of female prostitutes than male, there are still significant numbers of male prostitutes, particularly among children.

    In a way, they are more hidden than female prostitutes because they are associated with homosexuality and thus are subject to two types of stigma.


  • #34
    Alarums
    Closed Accounts Posts: 62 ✭✭Alarums


    taconnol wrote: »
    And please don't respond with the myth that any woman can go out and get any guy she wants to sleep with her-it just isn't true.

    It may not be true that women can get absolutely any guy she wants to sleep with her, but it is true that women can go out and get casual sex much more easily than men. Men would be much more willing to lower their standards when out just to have a chance of getting laid.


  • #35
    Dragan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Alarums wrote: »
    It may not be true that women can get absolutely any guy she wants to sleep with her, but it is true that women can go out and get casual sex much more easily than men. Men would be much more willing to lower their standards when out just to have a chance of getting laid.

    LoL, so men, in general, will happily lower their standards and are weak willed?

    Jesus, i feel a lot of pity for these "men" that get talked about on boards.

    Really.


  • #36
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    It was a genuine question to try and understand why there are so many more men that visit prostitutes than women. Is it that some men feel too much responsibility attached to sex with a non-prostitute and that a prostitute represents the ultimate no-strings attached sex? And do most women not have these feelings because most of them feel that biologically sex will always be associated with responsibility for them (ie being left holding the baby)? (note: I said "feel", not that it's necessarily true)

    I mean most reasons that are commonly given for men visiting prostitutes are reasons that could equally apply to women, yet the difference is huge, although tbh I have no figures to back that up.


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  • #37
    Dragan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    taconnol wrote: »
    It was a genuine question to try and understand why there are so many more men that visit prostitutes than women. Is it that some men feel too much responsibility attached to sex with a non-prostitute and that a prostitute represents the ultimate no-strings attached sex? And do most women not have these feelings because most of them feel that biologically sex will always be associated with responsibility for them (ie being left holding the baby)? (note: I said "feel", not that it's necessarily true)

    I mean most reasons that are commonly given for men visiting prostitutes are reasons that could equally apply to women, yet the difference is huge, although tbh I have no figures to back that up.

    Personally i think there is a difference in numbers, but i don't think it is as huge as people think.

    In all seriousness i was asked once would i like to be a male prostitute. The guy who asked me was a mate and it turned out this is what he did to supplement his income. He made good money from it too. I remember being taken aback at the time but hell, i guess someone has to do the job, right?

    This dude would normally end up with women who earned good money, who were not bad looking, who had a large degree of the success they were looking for, they just had no real interest in relationships at the time, playing the game in bars at the weekend or messing around. They just wanted sex.

    He told me about one evening he met a client and they went for dinner. They were meeting 2 of the clients female friends and my mate was introduced as "mine for the night".

    I think trying to find the reasons why people might go to a prostitute are way too many and varied, and i think they will always be coloured by the persons attitude towards it, much the same as everyone else.

    I have no real issue with what two happily consenting adults to between each other, so i guess i would tend to look at the no strings sex argument.

    Someone who hated prostitution may associate it with desperation, inability to connect , control issues etc.

    Really, it's like asking someone why they avail of any other service, too varied and complicated to be broken down into one easily identifiable stereotype.


  • #38
    Alarums
    Closed Accounts Posts: 62 ✭✭Alarums


    Dragan wrote: »
    Personally i think there is a difference in numbers, but i don't think it is as huge as people think.

    The difference in numbers is huge. It may not be politically correct to say this in an age where we must pretend that men and women are identical in thoughts and feelings, but the reason that there are way more prostitutes catering to men rather than women is a biological difference. Many men feel an urgent, eager, unambiguous physical desire for sexual release of any kind. Thats why there are more prostitutes for men, more strip clubs for men (look at the difference in how men react to female striipers compared to womens reactions to male strippers) and lap dancing clubs for men. Where is the female equivalent?


  • #39
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Really, that's insane! I don't know how I'd react if someone asked if I wanted to become a prostitute...The closest I got was a guy asked me for directions to a strip club on Leeson St. I was polite and pointed him in the right direction, then he asked "How do you know, do you work there?". I was speechless - and that doesn't happen very often :)

    Just on the motivations for clients: I'm sure the reasons are very varied but psychologists have interviewed hundreds of male clients. Having read quite a few transcripts of interviews as research (ahem..), a lot of them seem to have issues with responsibility, control, power, relationship with their mother..it just seems to keep coming up. Although I wouldn't go as far as to say all clients inherently have something wrong with them.

    It's a shame the same research hasn't been done with female clients.


  • #40
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    There's a lot of nonsense being spoken in this thread. I know a few people in the prostitution industry and have worked with prostitutes for about six years. Below are my thoughts on this matter.

    1. Prostitution is not illegal:

    Soliciting on the street, advertising prostitution and managing prostitution are illegal. Everything else is legal. This means you can work from your own home as a prostitute legally in Ireland.

    Also, our prostitution laws only apply to sexual intercourse, i.e. penetrative vaginal sex.


    2. Sex trafficking is extremely rare in Ireland:

    I'll accept every now and then some kind of sex trafficking happens in Ireland (e.g. every decade or so) but apart from that we do not have a sex trafficking problem in Ireland. As the Gardai say, the sex industry is a well run industry in Ireland - too many people are making too much money for there to be infighting, and there are plenty of women who want to be prostitutes. Also, the type of people who run brothels are nothing like the type of people involved in the drugs industry.

    There is a right-wing Catholic organisation in Ireland called "Ruhama". They are considered a pest by the Gardai and sex workers. They operate a really slick PR machine constantly releasing made up stories to the media and other "human rights" organisations. Of course, the uninformed average Joe believes what they read.

    Nearly every sex trafficking story in the media is invented by Ruhama. The Gardai have been unable to verify any of their stories.


    3. Prostitutes choose to do their job:

    All the prostitutes I know are doing their job by choice. I have asked them do they know anyone doing it not by choice and they say no. None of them like their job, but the obscene amount of money they make (thousands per week) makes the job tolerable.

    Yes, it is possible they originally had money problems so decided to become a prostitute, but that was a choice, and they continue working as prostitutes by choice.


    4. Prostitution is not immoral:

    Consensual sex between a man and woman is not immoral. Whether or not money changes hands is irrelevant if everyone involved is in consensus.


    5. Not everyone is like you:

    Just because you wouldn't like to be a prostitute doesn't mean everyone in the world thinks like you. There are lots of people who don't associate negative thoughts with sex so are willing to use their sexuality to make money. We are all different, and it is wrong to think things like sexual arousal and an “open” attitude to sex are bad.

    Bah!


  • #41
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Alarums wrote: »
    The difference in numbers is huge. It may not be politically correct to say this in an age where we must pretend that men and women are identical in thoughts and feelings, but the reason that there are way more prostitutes catering to men rather than women is a biological difference. Many men feel an urgent, eager, unambiguous physical desire for sexual release of any kind. Thats why there are more prostitutes for men, more strip clubs for men (look at the difference in how men react to female striipers compared to womens reactions to male strippers) and lap dancing clubs for men. Where is the female equivalent?

    Actually Alarums, there was a study done in Sweden in 1998 (Mansson) that showed that the majority of male clients had already had numerous sexual partners and this finding contradicts the popular idea in which the client is a “lonely” man motivated by “sexual needs.”


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  • #42
    Dragan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Alarums wrote: »
    The difference in numbers is huge.

    With all due respect, i offered an opinion, you have offered a fact.

    A few lines of theory does not back up that fact. So either their are numbers out there, or there are not?:)

    You have any links to data on this?


  • #43
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,649 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    Whether or not prostitution is legal or not wont change the fact it will always be there. Therefore society needs to taken a responsible approach as to how we should manage prostitution.

    the media when they run a story on the whole thing, often reference some irish website that advertises prostitutes under the cosy title of "escorts". Anytime the prostitutes are interviewed, they never give any impression of having been smuggled, have any drug addictions etc etc. It suggests to me that in many cases its not even a case of "they need the money", but rather they earn alot more cash from it than they would in a 9 to 5 job.

    I would rather see it legalised for the reason that it could offer protection for those involved, eliminate dodgy pimps, and would be an added tax taker for the government.

    I would though be keen to ensure that the publicity surrounding how prostitutes advertise etc is monitored strictly. After all we dont want our kids reading ads for "Juicy Lucy fulfilling all your naughty schoolgirl desires" in the back of the RTE Guide.

    AS for the moral element, well its not up to us to judge whether a girl makes that choice if she is not under duress and if some bloke, married or not, choses to see her, well thats his choice too.

    Its religion that originally brought the moral code in surrounding it. Not all religions or non religions have an issue with paying for sex.

    As for the question about it being degrading to women, well thats a matter of opinion. Its no more degrading than girls and blokes who go out at the weekend to clubs, pubs etc and have one night stands. You could argue that single mothers as the result of one night stands are as degrading to women as prostitutes!


  • #44
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    faceman wrote: »
    Its religion that originally brought the moral code in surrounding it. Not all religions or non religions have an issue with paying for sex.

    This isn't quite true. Society introduces taboos around sexuality, among other things, with the aim of ensuring that the sexual rules are followed. For example, incest has always been a taboo because it means that younger family members can be safe in their own homes and not feel threatened by older family members. Some argue that incest is also a taboo because of the danger of a resultant child being genetically disadvantaged, although I'm not sure whether that fear is well founded.

    I don't have moral issues with prostitution, I'm a consequentialist and one of the consequences of the prostitution trade is human trafficking and child abuse. The legalisation of prostitution has been shown to improve matters, but not eradicate them entirely. If legalisation of prostitution could be proven to remove these elements, I would be the first person up campaigning for it.


  • #45
    Dragan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    taconnol wrote: »
    I don't have moral issues with prostitution, I'm a consequentialist and one of the consequences of the prostitution trade is human trafficking and child abuse. The legalisation of prostitution has been shown to improve matters, but not eradicate them entirely. If legalisation of prostitution could be proven to remove these elements, I would be the first person up campaigning for it.

    Ah yes, but as long as their is a product, and a desire, there will always be illegal supply. Just like booze and smokes, dvd players and cars.

    Surely if legislation of anything can be shown to improve a situation, and although it might not eradicate it, then it should be considered?


  • #46
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Oh yes, I totally agree. Actually, it has been discussions like this on boards that have changed my mind on the legalisation of prostitution.

    The problem is when the illegally trafficked items aren't DVDs but humans. It would help if we had decent human trafficking laws in Ireland and proper facilities to deal with vulnerable individuals. As it stands, hundreds of children go missing from HSE care every year - to where and to what?


  • #47
    Alarums
    Closed Accounts Posts: 62 ✭✭Alarums


    Dragan wrote: »
    With all due respect, i offered an opinion, you have offered a fact.

    A few lines of theory does not back up that fact. So either their are numbers out there, or there are not?:)

    You have any links to data on this?


    Apologies. What I said was also just my opinion.


  • #48
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    taconnol wrote: »

    The problem is when the illegally trafficked items aren't DVDs but humans. It would help if we had decent human trafficking laws in Ireland and proper facilities to deal with vulnerable individuals.

    Indeed. If prostitution (IMO) is seen as a taboo subject it will be harder for laws regarding it to be implemented. Making prostitution more of a legitimate practice (ala Amsterdam) would lessen demand for shadier underground dealings.
    If dealing with matters linked to prostitution was more commonplace a better system to deal with crimes associated with it could be created.
    taconnol wrote: »
    As it stands, hundreds of children go missing from HSE care every year - to where and to what?

    Hundreds? Surely that has to be an exaggeration? I mean Madeline McCann went missing and the media hullabaloo is still strong to this day. Surely the media would make more of an issue of such a thing?


  • #49
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Indeed. If prostitution (IMO) is seen as a taboo subject it will be harder for laws regarding it to be implemented. Making prostitution more of a legitimate practice (ala Amsterdam) would lessen demand for shadier underground dealings.
    If dealing with matters linked to prostitution was more commonplace a better system to deal with crimes associated with it could be created.
    Totally agree.
    Galvasean wrote: »
    Hundreds? Surely that has to be an exaggeration? I mean Madeline McCann went missing and the media hullabaloo is still strong to this day. Surely the media would make more of an issue of such a thing?
    Madeline McCann was the white, blonde, cute daughter of a wealthy upper-class English couple. That's why she hit the headlines and her parents have spent millions keeping her there. The kids that go missing from the HSE are often orphans or have been separated from their parents. They are often from African migrant, lower-class families.

    Sorry I read one stat, but didn't read the whole sentence! So it said that last year the HSE stated that 441 children went missing from its care..and then I didn't see the part after that said: *between 2000 and 2007*. So it works out at 63 kids a year, more than one migrant child per week with no public outcry.

    And here we have the story of a Nigerian girl who is believed to be trafficked here for the prostitution trade:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0910/1220919678635.html


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