Unfair Criticism of Irish Rail Inter-City Speeds

parsi · 22-05-2008 4:32pm

BrianD wrote: »

And the polite French gentleman will go on strike for a month at the drop of a hat.

Actually as you mention it he's on strike today ! Along with a clutch of others.

de breeze · 22-05-2008 5:26pm

Metrobest wrote: »

The distance from Cork - Belfast is not significant, ie. little over 400km. And by the way, international high speed lines benefit from EU subsidies, so that's why Cork - Belfast would actually be more economic than Cork to Dublin.

Now let's have a look at potential journey times on an Irish HST. Madrid - Barcelona is 500km and takes 2.5 hours so with a proper high speed line you would expect to travel from Cork to Belfast in 2 hours, Cork to Dublin airport in 1 hour, Belfast to dublin city centre in 45 minutes, Kilkenny to Dublin airport in 30 minutes, Drogheda to Dublin centre in 20 minutes. These figures are conservative estimates.

With such transport links in place, Dublin airport grow further and become a key hub, the Irish equivilent of Schipol. Instead of subsidies to regional airports, the focus would be on upgrading existing regional rail services into the High Speed net, for example Kerry and Limerick into the Cork line, Waterford into Kilkennny and Galway into Dublin. If Aer Lingus invested in the line (as KLM does in Holland), it would be possible to buy a train + plane codeshared ticket from the USA into any high speed station, for example San Francisco - Belfast.

Fundamentally, High Speed Rail is a political decision. Zapatero in Spain has made the decision to invest the state's money and it is already yielding benefits. He is looking beyond the short term cost (€250 Billion is a lot of money for the struggling Spanish ecomony).

There is no way this 250 Bn figure is correct. The entire transport programme here over 10 years to 2015 is 'only' €35Bn. There was a study on upgrade options Dublin-Belfast by Booze Allen Hamilton (2006) It came up with a figure for high speed link (140mph trains) at £1.5Bn which is probably the amount we've invested in the M1 motorway.

The airline link idea is brilliant but IR have no plans at present to link to the airport.

Ham'nd'egger · 22-05-2008 5:52pm

de breeze wrote: »

There is no way this 250 Bn figure is correct. The entire transport programme here over 10 years to 2015 is 'only' €35Bn. There was a study on upgrade options Dublin-Belfast by Booze Allen Hamilton (2006) It came up with a figure for high speed link (140mph trains) at £1.5Bn which is probably the amount we've invested in the M1 motorway.

The airline link idea is brilliant but IR have no plans at present to link to the airport.

Irish Rail have a plan to link Dublin Airport for some years now but the powers that be won't allow them to act on this.

Metrobest · 22-05-2008 6:23pm

de breeze wrote: »

There is no way this 250 Bn figure is correct. The entire transport programme here over 10 years to 2015 is 'only' €35Bn. There was a study on upgrade options Dublin-Belfast by Booze Allen Hamilton (2006) It came up with a figure for high speed link (140mph trains) at £1.5Bn which is probably the amount we've invested in the M1 motorway.

The airline link idea is brilliant but IR have no plans at present to link to the airport.

It's €250bn for a vast programme of AVE high speed rail lines which will give Spain the biggest high speed network in the world, not just the Barcelona-Madrid line. I cannot give you a breakdown of what each individual line is costing because in Spain no-one discusses the cost of individual infrastrcture projects, the media never mentions it, they just identify a need and take the decision at political level to build it. It's a less consultative form of planning but it gets things done faster.

High speed as expensive though because it has to be grade and trajectory consistent, which means elevation in sections and tunnels in others.

As I said before, the infrastructure projects underway in Spain right now are light years ahead of Ireland. What needs to be realised in Ireland is that when all the Transport 21 Projects are done, all the motorway networks in place, Ireland is still going to be 20 years behind the rest of Europe in high speed and urban rail. It's a question of spend now or spend later. I say better spend now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVE

Ham'nd'egger · 22-05-2008 6:35pm

Metrobest wrote: »

It's €250bn for a vast programme of AVE high speed rail lines which will give Spain the biggest high speed network in the world, not just the Barcelona-Madrid line. I cannot give you a breakdown of what each individual line is costing because in Spain no-one discusses the cost of individual infrastrcture projects, the media never mentions it, they just identify a need and take the decision at political level to build it. It's a less consultative form of planning but it gets things done faster.

High speed as expensive though because it has to be grade and trajectory consistent, which means elevation in sections and tunnels in others.

As I said before, the infrastructure projects underway in Spain right now are light years ahead of Ireland. What needs to be realised in Ireland is that when all the Transport 21 Projects are done, all the motorway networks in place, Ireland is still going to be 20 years behind the rest of Europe in high speed and urban rail. It's a question of spend now or spend later. I say better spend now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVE

One line, 100 lines; €250 Billion is still almost twice our GDP and we don't have a fraction of the souls to move that other countries have. Whatever about other solutions to increase speeds, the question still boils down to cash, needs and desire to solve same.

icdg · 22-05-2008 8:27pm

Nostradamus wrote: »

Built to international gauge and operated by a North-South consortium outside the domain of CIE and Tanslink.

It would transform this country bigtime.

It would also, if built on the same permanent way as the current rail line, mean the end of the DART north of Connolly and the Northern Commuter service as we know it. It would have to be a a greenfield project with new seperate stations etc.

Realistically, an upgrade project would involve putting in a third rail line whereever possible (it would be more like extended passing loops), and ordering in new rolling stock including HST-style power cars that can handle 125mph, and doing something with the Boyne viaduct, I don't know if it can be demolished and replaced with a two-track bridge though.

Victor · 22-05-2008 11:56pm

Examiner story http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=63096-qqqx=1.asp

DWCommuter · 23-05-2008 12:43am

I saw that story and I think its a little unfair of Nostradamus to be so totally critical of it. But in saying that, I can appreciate some of what he said. Lets look at some facts.

In the 1970s the track in Ireland was not and I stress, NOT, in a particularly poor condition. It was during the 70s that the trackwork required renewal and it was only on the Cork line that any renewal was taking place. By the 80s the track had deterioated due to lack of renewal and 100 tonne locomotives tearing the **** out of it. Journey times in the 70s were progressive as railway management in the 70s had perhaps the distinction of being the most ambitious team in the history of CIE. Plans were laid out, new timetables were devised, but all of it backfired when the Government didn't match this with investment of any noteworthy amount. Hence the network started to reach a level of real decline by the mid 80s. Speeds came down. Fast forward to today and despite renewal of the network, new and very different factors have entered the equation.

1. The padding in the Timetable prevents ambitious timings.
2. Additional commuter services, particularly in the Dublin area have slowed intercity potential. The KRP is evidence enough of how solutions need to be found. In fact the DART has deterioated uncontrollably due to the additional services forced in beside it.
3. IE have foolishly focused on increased services rather than increased speeds, despite the huge threat posed to them by the ever improving inter urban road network.

I have been very vocal about the motorway threat and I believe it will kill off intercity rail in its present form. I don't subscribe (for historically irish reasons)to the huge sums talked about here for high speed rail, but I would be hugely critical of IE for not factoring in "some vision" during On-Track 2000, that allowed for at least 125mph on the Cork line and at least 90mph on all other lines. IE, while constrained by certain factors, have no balls whatsoever.

As for my ex-colleagues comments in that article about the 70s timetable...well Im shocked actually, as its a well known fact that back then CIE were breaking many health and safety laws and trains were running at speeds and in conditions that would not be tolerated by todays modern standards, standards that were being more rigidly applied at the time, elsewhere in Europe. High speeds over poor track was a contributing factor in the Knockcroghery accident. BREL reported on Irish Railways in the early 90s and found them to be operationally unsafe due to practises. Journey times may be slightly slower now, but much of it is due to trains travelling at correct speeds in certain conditions and the congestion issues that have arisen.

I was a huge supporter of the journey time argument a few years back. So was Nostradamus. But history and real research can teach you a thing or two. Overall the article is misleading and should be dismissed as a pitiful attempt at regenerating old press releases in an attempt to stem the tide of public indifference to that organisations activities. Its a shame, but its true and Im probably in trouble now for saying it.:eek:

Ham'nd'egger · 23-05-2008 12:51am

icdg wrote: »

It would also, if built on the same permanent way as the current rail line, mean the end of the DART north of Connolly and the Northern Commuter service as we know it. It would have to be a a greenfield project with new seperate stations etc.

Realistically, an upgrade project would involve putting in a third rail line whereever possible (it would be more like extended passing loops), and ordering in new rolling stock including HST-style power cars that can handle 125mph, and doing something with the Boyne viaduct, I don't know if it can be demolished and replaced with a two-track bridge though.

It was built to accommodate two trains when built but for safely reasons two trains were never allowed on it. Increasing it to two tracks would not improve speeds or times en route so there isn't any benefit in doing so; savings would be just 1-2 minutes at best.

jank · 23-05-2008 1:38am

Wasnt there also a study for a higher speed link for the cork dublin route.

When the motorways are in place it will be very easy to get from a to b quicker then the train. We have a small country. Very ideal for trains but why the hell dont we use them. Is it that we are afraid of them as it might indicate that the brits actually did something for us?

spacetweek · 23-05-2008 5:42pm

jank wrote: »

We have a small country. Very ideal for trains

The smaller a country is, the LESS suitable for trains it becomes. Also, the less dense, the less suitable. Ireland is unfortunately very small and also low density.

jank wrote: »

Is it that we are afraid of them as it might indicate that the brits actually did something for us?

Do you really believe there's anyone out there who thinks like that?

Lennoxschips · 24-05-2008 5:27pm

Metrobest wrote: »

Shambles? Sounds like the media spin on it. Like every big project, all the cost and disruption will be worth it as soon as the line opens and then the focus will move on to which line should be next for high speed.

I travelled Thalys Amsterdam to Paris and I noticed that the Amsterdam-Brussels section of the line is quite slow; you really notice the difference on the Brussels to Paris section. When the new high speed line from Schipol opens it will reduce the journey time from Amsterdam to Paris from 4.09 to 3.04 hours. That's fast.

The benefits of high speed are clear, especially when you factor in the environment. Presently KLM flies between Schipol and Brussels, but these flights will be made unviable by the speed advantage of Thalys, reducing the emissions we all worry about. Indeed, Thalys already codeshares with the Skyteam alliance so train+plane is possible one one ticket. The same is happening with the highspeed line from Barcelona to Madrid, which stops at El Prat airport in Barcelona.

Now Ireland is a very small country, so a high speed line that connects Cork - X big town - Dublin city centre - Dublin Airport - Drogheda - Belfast would be completely viable. Yes it would cost billions but so what? Think of the social, economic and environmental benefits. If the Basques can do, if the Belgians can do it, why can't the Irish?

Of course the HSL from Antwerp to Amsterdam will be an improvement, you don't have to tell me that, I travel on it a lot too. I'm just saying that the Thalys public consortium (who were recommended by somebody [you?] to come in and build the Irish lines) have made a total mess of the building of the project. It's years behind schedule and billions over budget. Just a month ago the new tunnels into Antwerp station caught fire. None of that is media spin. And when the Dutch section of the line opens three years too late, the HSL trains won't arrive for a another two years after that, because they've botched the train order as well. So standard speed trainsets will be running on HSL lines between Amsterdam and Rotterdam for the first two years. Are these the people you want building railways in Ireland?? If you do it you have to do it properly... on time and on budget.

However, if you look at all the HSL lines in Europe, they are connecting major metropolises or heavily populated regions. Paris, London, Brussels, Amsterdam, Koln, Marseille, Barcelona. Cork is no metropolis. The passenger demand to justify a HSL just isn't there. There might be a case for a HSL between Dublin and Belfast, but the distance involved is too short for the trains to get up to full TGV speed for long enough for it to make sense. So a massive improvement/electrification and alignment straightening of the existing line is what is needed.

I think the concentration in Ireland should be on improvement and integration of existing lines. A HSL from Cork to Dublin is no good if you still have to get a taxi from Heuston to Dublin Airport. The priority should be on restoring the continuation of the Cork to Belfast through service, with a stop at the Airport, while completely improving the Cork-Dublin line. The interconnector is the first building block in tis.

Basically, we need to worry about getting Irish rail services into the 20th century before we start dreaming about bullet trains.

murphaph · 24-05-2008 7:46pm

If we even had full 125mph running between Cork-Dublin-Belfast (including proper quad tracking on all approaches to Dublin) and full 100mph running between Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Sligo it would make a MASSIVE difference.

This is not a big country and realistically we simply don't need HSR as we don't have more than ONE city of international consequence in any case and population density is too low.

The future of rail in Ireland is bright, and it consists of urban mass transit in the main. IC rail will be of far less importance in relative terms but our current lines should be upgraded to the above speeds.

As it stands we still have vast quantities of single line twisty rubbish that needs doubling and straightening and in many cases rebuilding the foundations. If we can build an entire motorway network (no complaints about that) in 20 years we can upgrade the railways.

Chris_533976 · 24-05-2008 10:05pm

And ignoring such utter **** as the WRC will be a good start.

Lennoxschips · 24-05-2008 10:23pm

murphaph wrote: »

If we even had full 125mph running between Cork-Dublin-Belfast (including proper quad tracking on all approaches to Dublin) and full 100mph running between Dublin-Galway and Dublin-Sligo it would make a MASSIVE difference.

This is not a big country and realistically we simply don't need HSR as we don't have more than ONE city of international consequence in any case and population density is too low.

The future of rail in Ireland is bright, and it consists of urban mass transit in the main. IC rail will be of far less importance in relative terms but our current lines should be upgraded to the above speeds.

As it stands we still have vast quantities of single line twisty rubbish that needs doubling and straightening and in many cases rebuilding the foundations. If we can build an entire motorway network (no complaints about that) in 20 years we can upgrade the railways.

Exactly, if we upgrade, straighten and electrify the current Cork-Dublin route, you could get it up to 200 km/hr along the whole route. So the journey time would be about 1 hour 25 mins.

Build a, seperate, dedicated TGV line at 300 km/hr and the journey time would be 1 hour.

I don't think the extra 25 mins saving is worth the billions of investment, especially when you consider that the current line intercity line is far from full.

monument · 25-05-2008 4:41am

murphaph wrote: »

This is not a big country...

murphaph wrote: »

as we don't have more than ONE city of international consequence

The rest of your post is pretty sensible, but I don't get these.

Big in relation to what? And all hsr linked cities around the world are only ones of "international consequence"?

Ham'nd'egger · 25-05-2008 10:30am

monument wrote: »

The rest of your post is pretty sensible, but I don't get these.

Big in relation to what? And all hsr linked cities around the world are only ones of "international consequence"?

I assume he means big in an International sense and a big player in terms on the world stage.

murphaph · 25-05-2008 10:48am

Hamndegger wrote: »

I assume he means big in an International sense and a big player in terms on the world stage.

Yeah, that's it. Dublin is our only real city (one the rest of the world would consider a true city) and this is in part due to our low population density-our island has a spread out population, sparse in nature. Even our towns and cities have tended to be low rise sprawling affairs, difficult to serve well with public transport. This is hopefully changing.

We are in a totally different position than Britain-England for example is only a little bigger than Ireland. Its population density is 388.7/km². The population density of Ireland is 60.3/km². They ae also actually connected to the continent with HSR and it makes absolute sense for them to extend new-build HSR north and westwards to connect to the european HSR network-(the price of air travel is only going one way from now on, alternatives to oil are much further off for the airline industry than for rail).

Not only is England's density much higher, they actually have multiple urban centres in excess of 1 million people, all worthy of HSR connection. The only way HSR will become viable in this country is when a tunnel connects us to the continent via Britain. Obviously this would depend on Britain actually developing their own HSR network first.

bazzer06 · 26-05-2008 3:59pm

I don't understand why Dublin - Cork - Belfast is getting such a trashing - the SNCF are building a dedicated TGV line from Paris to Caen and Rouen. Obviously we don't have a Paris sized metropolis, but Caen and Rouen are both cities comparable to Cork in population (and much less than Belfast)

Also, I have to say I'd be against the international gauge idea. Part of the huge success of the TGV is that it can go anywhere ie it can run on conventional track. The only way HSR would work here is if services from all other parts of the country were routed to connect to a central spine (Belfast - Dublin - Cork), leaving other lines free for commuter rail. Also, you could then have services, for example from Dublin to Tralee direct during the summer, all under the HSR banner.

markpb · 26-05-2008 4:02pm

bazzer06 wrote: »

Also, I have to say I'd be against the international gauge idea. Part of the huge success of the TGV is that it can go anywhere ie it can run on conventional track.

TGVs don't operate on conventional rail, they operate on specially built LGVs.

Calina · 26-05-2008 4:13pm

Not strictly speaking correct. To travel at the very high speeds, they need the LGV, but they do share rail in parts of France (Brittany, again, being a handy example) where they are not travelling at the very high speeds. AFAIK, and oh God it's ages since I read it, the lines from Rennes to the west are being upgraded so that the TGVs can travel at a higher speed on them than has previously the case, and LGV is being built part of the way between Le Mans and Rennes. Or, currently, they are going through the planning for them and sorting out the finance split.

The issue in Ireland is that a) we've non standard gauge and b) a lack of agreement on what is needed.

The non-standard gauge probably makes it more expensive to buy rolling stock. The big issue however is our inability to sit down and make a viable plan for the future. What is blindingly obvious to me may not be considered useful by other people. Ultimately, I would venture to suggest that in the long term, we're going to need higher speed rail from Cork to Belfast (via Dublin) than we have right now. It may - in the long, long term - be ultimately less expensive to sit down and plan a system from scratch rather than trying to fit it in around the existing/remaining infrastructure. This is not just rail routing, but how we've squeezed stations (Kent in Cork being an example - I don't think it's even remotely adequate for the number of people who need to use it on a Sunday and Friday, for example) and how we don't integrate our different transport types. Even if you could get agreement on what is practically desirable, this country is full of people who will find someway of narking about the short term cost of implementing such a system. So we're not going to do it.

Red Alert · 26-05-2008 7:00pm

Most rolling stock is built-to-order anyway, regardless of the purchaser. It does, however, affect IE's dealings in the second hand market. But I seriously doubt a switch in the gauge would be possible at all or that it would really be worth the incredible hassle.

IE have become more interested in their statistics than in real service. They need to quit the idiotic padding that is in the timetable. It's annoying, unnecessary, uneconomic and is environmentally unfriendly. If they're late, they're late, if they're early, they're early. End of story.

Lennoxschips · 29-05-2008 12:44pm

markpb wrote: »

TGVs don't operate on conventional rail, they operate on specially built LGVs.

They operate on both. The point being made is that a TGV train can operate on any electrified rail line in France, as they all have the same gauge. That's why France opted for TGV in the first place over Maglev, so they could use existing track in combination with new track.

If you build standard gauge lines in Ireland then the trains won't be able to run on existing track. I.e., a Cork-Dublin train wouldn't be able to spur off onto other, existing Irish gauge tracks.

paulm17781 · 29-05-2008 1:28pm

Lennoxschips wrote: »

If you build standard gauge lines in Ireland then the trains won't be able to run on existing track. I.e., a Cork-Dublin train wouldn't be able to spur off onto other, existing Irish gauge tracks.

Probably not a bad thing. A lot of the time tabling issues are from running too many services on the same track, no need to add to it.

Solair · 29-05-2008 2:16pm

I don't understand what Irish Rail were thinking when they specified the recent new trains:

MK4 or the Cork-Dublin Express fleet is a strange choice. It doesn't tilt, is designed to use top-and-tail locomotives (which they didn't buy) so basically it's just a new set of carriages that are being hauled by the same locomotives as they always were.

The Intercity Railcar fleet that's coming on stream now too also does not tilt.

Why the ***** didn't they get a fleet of 125mph+ tilting trains ?! They're nearly standard everywhere else in europe where there are similar population distributions to Ireland and they can handle older track at higher speeds.

It would have left the possibility of 100-125mph operation open on all routes.

Cork-Dublin-Belfast could and should be upgraded to a full 200km/h medium speed standard European Intercity service.
There's no reason why this shouldn't or can't be done.
The existing Cork fleet can run at 200km/h when used with the power cars it's supposed to have and the Belfast enterprise fleet needs to be replaced.

I really think there needs to be a long hard look taken at Irish Rail's purchasing policies though. They make no sense!

We don't need to go down the route of TGV lines between Cork-Dublin-Belfast just yet, but it might be nice to start looking at a proper intercity service on that route that could connect them a hell of a lot faster than the current mess.

Right now Irish Rail seems determined to upgrade the system to the level that most other EU countries were at in the 1960s.

Then again, why I am I surprised. The same organisation seems to have industrial relations and internal work practices that are more like the 1860s!

Lennoxschips · 29-05-2008 6:49pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

Probably not a bad thing. A lot of the time tabling issues are from running too many services on the same track, no need to add to it.

That's a capacity issue in Dublin, I don't think the actual intercity lines outside the city are running anywhere near capacity, in fact I'd venture to say they are half empty.

If more capacity is needed in Dublin, then more should be built, hence the Interconnector.

Why the ***** didn't they get a fleet of 125mph+ tilting trains ?! They're nearly standard everywhere else in europe where there are similar population distributions to Ireland and they can handle older track at higher speeds.

Because they didn't have much money to spend? Other European countries have invested heavily in their rail infrastructure. The Irish government is only interested in keeping the existing rail infrastructure up to EU safety minimums.

DWCommuter · 30-05-2008 12:04am

Lennoxschips wrote: »

The Irish government is only interested in keeping the existing rail infrastructure up to EU safety minimums.

And then calling it "world class".:eek:

Polar101 · 30-05-2008 12:42pm

ardmacha wrote: »

As far I as know the Finns did not build new lines, they introduced the Pendolino tilting trains.

And as there were no new lines built, the Pendolinos won't run at "high speed" except on short distances on the network - making high speed rail in Finland a bit of a myth. The major differences between rail travel in Finland and Ireland is that the Finnish rail network is mostly electric. And that travel on IE is cheaper (Finnish rail lacks the return fares). And that travel times have decreased in Finland over the last few years, especially on main lines.

You get the timetable padding, reliability issues and customer service problems in both countries.

T Corolla · 03-09-2008 12:19pm

Folks,
This is a small country compare to other countries in Europe. We are not connected to any other rail system like the UK. You cannot expect to drive a train in Ireland over 100mph because there is no requirment for it.
It takes time to stop a three hundred tonne machine and since the stations are sometime only short distances between them you would wreck the train. The biggest problem Irish rail has to deal with in the next ten years is when all the dualcarriage ways are built and people can go from Cork to Dublin in a car for far less time and money. Irish rail will need to pull out the finger then alright. I myself try to use it as much as possible and where possible. I wonder will they ever open the section to Athlone from Mullingar. I have walked that line and i can assure people it is a far better section of line that Athlone to Portarlington, but then again there is more business for Irish rail along the Athlone Portarlington route than Mullingar to Athlone. Maybe in the future when there is a hourly service to Galway they will dispatch a train from both Hueston and Connolly and this will give the Sligo line a boost in offpeak times.

Unfair Criticism of Irish Rail Inter-City Speeds

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