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Pavee point in common sense shocker!

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13567…17

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    #62
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    eviltwin wrote: »
    And all the other problems like higher rates of suicide, infant mortality, miscarriage, cancer, heart disease, lower life expectancy.
    True, but like just about every problem travellers have it would be easily sorted by living in those free houses instead of burning them down and using the free tuition instead of going on the piss.


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    #63
    Boring username
    Closed Accounts Posts: 679 ✭✭✭Boring username


    TravellerGirl wrote: »
    I am Traveller girl and I find your post very wrong and disgusting in a number of ways. First things first they is no-one marrying their sisters that is called incest and if you are as smart as you think you are you should ask a member of your local Garda and they will tell you its against the law.
    Secondly I have read countless stories about the settled community falling in love with their parent/sibling. To be honest thats a little freaky.
    Our parents might be strict on us but that is only called taking care of your child and they dont rush us into marriage. I am 20 years old and I am not married yet, I am living with my fiance who is a Traveller man.
    I left school at the age of 14 not because of my family or myself but because I was getting bullied by settled people. I then went on to being home-schooled and then eventually went to Youthreach where I left with a Childcare Level 3&4 module done and Computers Level 3&4.

    There might be bad apples in the Traveller Community but I can also say the same for Settled people. But I don't judge all of you the same so why do the same with us.


    Hello, and welcome to boards. What are you opinions on Martin Collins, and Pavee Point in general? Do you find them helpful, or do they divide the settled and traveller community?
    Also, do you think it would be better if leaders of the travelling community just straight up admitted they need help rooting out the mafia elements in the travelling community, or do you think there is another way to deal with the problem?

    Congratulations on your achievements to date, I hope more people follow your lead.


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    #64
    TravellerGirl
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TravellerGirl


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Great to get input from someone actually in the community for once
    Don't mind the idiot comments, par of the course here on AH. Well done on all you have achieved but I'd imagine your the exception rather than the rule. We can't tar everyone with the same brush but neither can we ignore the major issues in the community that wouldn't be accepted within the settled community.

    Thank you very much. I understand what you are saying and I would love to say your right but what I trying to put across here is that the Traveller Community is changing slowly.
    There is more gays and lesbians coming out and admitting it and their is nothing wrong with it. There is more settled people getting married to Travellers too just look at my fiances relatives.

    You will not see the change because you are not here to see it. You will not hear the voices screaming for change because you are not here to hear it.
    I could sit here and reply all day but their is some idiots on here that will not understand.
    You can say what you want about Travellers but I can bet if you put a 100 Travellers who are criminals against setled people you would still outrun us.
    I read the newspaper everyday and all I read is about criminals, rapists and paedophiles who are settled people and theirs nothing said about that but the one time that a traveller is on it theres hell to pay.


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    #65
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,235 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Boring username wrote: »
    Hello, and welcome to boards. What are you opinions on Martin Collins, and Pavee Point in general? Do you find them helpful, or do they divide the settled and traveller community?
    Also, do you think it would be better if leaders of the travelling community just straight up admitted they need help rooting out the mafia elements in the travelling community, or do you think there is another way to deal with the problem?

    Congratulations on your achievements to date, I hope more people follow your lead.

    +1

    Fair play. I'd imagine the tone of this thread improving from here on. It's easier to speak insultingly about people than to people.


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    #66
    TravellerGirl
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TravellerGirl


    Boring username wrote: »
    Hello, and welcome to boards. What are you opinions on Martin Collins, and Pavee Point in general? Do you find them helpful, or do they divide the settled and traveller community?
    Also, do you think it would be better if leaders of the travelling community just straight up admitted they need help rooting out the mafia elements in the travelling community, or do you think there is another way to deal with the problem?

    Congratulations on your achievements to date, I hope more people follow your lead.

    Thank you very much. I admire Pavee Point in a way because I don't think we would have gotten very far if we didn't have someone fighting for us but I don't follow what he does be saying. I think that thier needs to be someone who says "change is needed so stand up and fight for it, fight for your rights as an equal
    human being" .

    Thank you very much.


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    #67
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    TravellerGirl wrote: »
    Thank you very much. I understand what you are saying and I would love to say your right but what I trying to put across here is that the Traveller Community is changing slowly.
    There is more gays and lesbians coming out and admitting it and their is nothing wrong with it. There is more settled people getting married to Travellers too just look at my fiances relatives.

    You will not see the change because you are not here to see it. You will not hear the voices screaming for change because you are not here to hear it.
    I could sit here and reply all day but their is some idiots on here that will not understand.
    You can say what you want about Travellers but I can bet if you put a 100 Travellers who are criminals against setled people you would still outrun us.
    I read the newspaper everyday and all I read is about criminals, rapists and paedophiles who are settled people and theirs nothing said about that but the one time that a traveller is on it theres hell to pay.

    I think you are being a bit optimistic there. While there is evidence to suggest traveller culture is changing in a number of areas there is still a much higher proportion involved in crime and there is still a much worse situation in regard to unemployment and domestic violence. Sure you could probably find one of the nicer sites and compare it against one of the uglier housing estates and you'd probably have travellers doing better but if you were to take a proper random sampling or look at the culture as a whole then you couldn't possibly expect to keep that. I get that it might be hurtful to be stigmatised due to your family background but denying the major issues in traveller culture is not going to make it stop.


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    #68
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    TravellerGirl wrote: »
    Thank you very much. I understand what you are saying and I would love to say your right but what I trying to put across here is that the Traveller Community is changing slowly.
    There is more gays and lesbians coming out and admitting it and their is nothing wrong with it. There is more settled people getting married to Travellers too just look at my fiances relatives.

    You will not see the change because you are not here to see it. You will not hear the voices screaming for change because you are not here to hear it.
    I could sit here and reply all day but their is some idiots on here that will not understand.
    You can say what you want about Travellers but I can bet if you put a 100 Travellers who are criminals against setled people you would still outrun us.
    I read the newspaper everyday and all I read is about criminals, rapists and paedophiles who are settled people and theirs nothing said about that but the one time that a traveller is on it theres hell to pay.

    Great post. Its refreshing to hear from someone from the other side. I hope you stick around Travellergirl, you might change some opinions around here. Best of luck with your future plans.


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    #69
    TravellerGirl
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TravellerGirl


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    It looks like around 5% of prisoners are travellers (5.9% in 2002, 4.6% in 2006). Unless things have changed dramatically over the last decade.
    Are travellers 5% of the population of Ireland?
    Not a chance.
    Travellers are also well documented to have increased genetic disorders, which is associated with inbreeding.
    Now, some call this "generalising" or "lumping together casually", but sorry, this is simple statistics. Travellers are more likely to be criminals, alcoholics and inbred. Research tells us this conclusively.

    You think that travellers are only ever gonna be criminals, alcoholics or inbred. I wonder which one I will go down, I don't think that I would be the criminal because I would actually cry as its scary enough walking into a shop and seeing the security guard following you so you feel the shame and embarrassment. I know I wouldn't be the alcoholic because I find alcohol repulsive and I definitely won't be the inbred because me and my fiance is not related at all not even a tiny bit.
    So please get your facts straight and look into your own community a little bit better.
    Thank you


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    #70
    TravellerGirl
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TravellerGirl


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Great post. Its refreshing to hear from someone from the other side. I hope you stick around Travellergirl, you might change some opinions around here. Best of luck with your future plans.

    Thank you very much. It means a lot too me. I came across this post this morning and I couldn't believe the cheek of half the people and the discrimination. I really hope their children don't grow up like them. Please teach them a bit of manners.


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    #71
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    TravellerGirl wrote: »
    You think that travellers are only ever gonna be criminals, alcoholics or inbred. I wonder which one I will go down, I don't think that I would be the criminal because I would actually cry as its scary enough walking into a shop and seeing the security guard following you so you feel the shame and embarrassment. I know I wouldn't be the alcoholic because I find alcohol repulsive and I definitely won't be the inbred because me and my fiance is not related at all not even a tiny bit.
    So please get your facts straight and look into your own community a little bit better.
    Thank you
    Get my facts straight?!?! Travellers are far more likely to be alcoholic, imprisoned or inbred than settled people. There is plenty of hard data for these facts.
    Do you know the difference between statistical and anecdotal evidence?
    One is useless is a major differentiator.


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    #72
    TravellerGirl
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TravellerGirl


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    I think you are being a bit optimistic there. While there is evidence to suggest traveller culture is changing in a number of areas there is still a much higher proportion involved in crime and there is still a much worse situation in regard to unemployment and domestic violence. Sure you could probably find one of the nicer sites and compare it against one of the uglier housing estates and you'd probably have travellers doing better but if you were to take a proper random sampling or look at the culture as a whole then you couldn't possibly expect to keep that. I get that it might be hurtful to be stigmatised due to your family background but denying the major issues in traveller culture is not going to make it stop.

    I am not denying any of the problems that we are still facing but what you have to remember is the problems that we are facing your community is facing them too.
    There is unemployment, hunger, criminals, alcoholics, disabilities, different cultures etc in both of our communities not just one. I do state that our community needs to change and slowly that is happening but you can't rush something as it will never happen.


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    #73
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    TravellerGirl wrote: »
    There is unemployment, hunger, criminals, alcoholics, disabilities, different cultures etc in both of our communities not just one.
    Yes, but do you really think these problems are of equivalent magnitude in the two communities?
    The answer is moot really as they aren't.


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    #74
    TravellerGirl
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TravellerGirl


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Get my facts straight?!?! Travellers are far more likely to be alcoholic, imprisoned or inbred than settled people. There is plenty of hard data for these facts.
    Do you know the difference between statistical and anecdotal evidence?
    One is useless is a major differentiator.

    Yes you should get your facts straight. You are only going by what a computer tells you, why don't you go out and talk to the Traveller Community and see the results for yourself. Instead of sitting behind a computer and reading about statistics why don't you go out and see how many are criminals, alcoholics and inbred. I'm sure the results will surprise you as you will families who want to get on and make their lives.


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    #75
    TravellerGirl
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TravellerGirl


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Yes, but do you really think these problems are of equivalent magnitude in the two communities?
    The answer is moot really as they aren't.

    Yes but if you look at our two communities closely maybe you will see that their is good and bad people in both and their is people that you pass by everyday calling out for help but you can't listen to them because your stuck in your own world and your own well-being.


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    #76
    dd972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭dd972


    TravellerGirl wrote: »
    I am Traveller girl and I find your post very wrong and disgusting in a number of ways. First things first they is no-one marrying their sisters that is called incest and if you are as smart as you think you are you should ask a member of your local Garda and they will tell you its against the law.
    Secondly I have read countless stories about the settled community falling in love with their parent/sibling. To be honest thats a little freaky.
    Our parents might be strict on us but that is only called taking care of your child and they dont rush us into marriage. I am 20 years old and I am not married yet, I am living with my fiance who is a Traveller man.
    I left school at the age of 14 not because of my family or myself but because I was getting bullied by settled people. I then went on to being home-schooled and then eventually went to Youthreach where I left with a Childcare Level 3&4 module done and Computers Level 3&4.

    There might be bad apples in the Traveller Community but I can also say the same for Settled people. But I don't judge all of you the same so why do the same with us.

    Don't worry, there'll be about another 5 or 6 pages then someone will start another thread about Gays.


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    #77
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    TravellerGirl wrote: »
    Yes you should get your facts straight. You are only going by what a computer tells you, why don't you go out and talk to the Traveller Community and see the results for yourself. Instead of sitting behind a computer and reading about statistics why don't you go out and see how many are criminals, alcoholics and inbred. I'm sure the results will surprise you as you will families who want to get on and make their lives.
    This is meaningless.
    Could you give us the percentage of travellers in jail, with alcohol problems or with genetic disorders resulting from inbreeding? You seem to know these statistics better than any of the published material available.


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    #78
    TravellerGirl
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TravellerGirl


    dd972 wrote: »
    Don't worry, there'll be about another 5 or 6 pages then someone will start another thread about Gays.

    Theres no need them to be so judgemental and thinking they are right.


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    #79
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    TravellerGirl wrote: »
    Yes but if you look at our two communities closely maybe you will see that their is good and bad people in both and their is people that you pass by everyday calling out for help but you can't listen to them because your stuck in your own world and your own well-being.
    So two communities have problems, one provably far greater than the other, but this doesn't matter because I apparently ignore people asking for help?
    No idea what you're getting at here really.


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    #80
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,707 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    I totally condemn the settled people you refer to in the courts
    do you totally condemn the Travelers that are involved in crime?


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    #81
    Frynge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Frynge


    I would certainly support travallergirl's opinion that the community is changing for the better and I have personally experienced some of that change.

    Just to be explicit on what change I have noticed. I work in hotels and 15 years ago we would have switched the main breaker as opposed to serving a group of travellers. Anytime you heard of travellers being in a certain pub, you quickly heard of the trouble that was caused. Now when a group of travellers come into any of the hotels we can engage with them first to suss out if they will be trouble. Over the last year I would say we have had issues with travallers on 3 occasions.

    That would equate to about 3% of groups causing a problem which is certainly higher than any problems caused by settled people but is also very indicative of a changing culture, mentality and respect for other peoples property.

    One of those occasions was only last Tuesday, when two travaller woman decided to have a go at each other. In terms of incidents it was quite minor but as I was going into the bar from reception 3 (what I think were brothers) were leaving trough the bar door with one of them saying '**** sake, this is why we're not ****ing let in anywhere'.

    But then the week before I also had one come into the hotel looking for me to buy one of 5 brand new generators that had very questionable origins.


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    #82
    TravellerGirl
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TravellerGirl


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    This is meaningless.
    Could you give us the percentage of travellers in jail, with alcohol problems or with genetic disorders resulting from inbreeding? You seem to know these statistics better than any of the published material available.

    No I can't give you that but if you are so smart at statistics why don't you give me it. I suppose whats wrong is that somewhere along the line something happened to you and you turned into a frightened judgemental little man. Poor you


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    #83
    Mesrine65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,969 ✭✭✭Mesrine65


    I see the herd mentality has arrived, how about letting the girl talk openly & frankly without being vociferously harangued for being a member of the travelling community.


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    #84
    TravellerGirl
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TravellerGirl


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So two communities have problems, one provably far greater than the other, but this doesn't matter because I apparently ignore people asking for help?
    No idea what you're getting at here really.
    I'm getting at your community


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    #85
    Right Turn Clyde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Right Turn Clyde


    Chickentown wrote: »
    Your post reads great to be honest, very well thought out, but it fails to tackle one specific aspect of the traveller community which I can never get my head around; I have met roughly around 1000 travelers in my life so far, how come I have never met a good one?

    As I said earlier, I've had many negative experiences with Travellers. However, in the past 10 years I've had greater personal and professional exposure to the Travelling community, and that's fundamentally changed my position on the matter. If you've failed to meet one good person out of a thousand then I suspect the problem is with you, and how you define 'good one'.
    Chickentown wrote: »
    I mean if we always hear about the small minority causing all the trouble, why don't I see the good ones in the cubicle next to me at work, frantically trying to finialise the Henderson account before 5:30pm?

    There are many Travellers living professional lives, but they go unseen. I distinctly remember a Traveller dentist on RTE a few years ago talking about the dual lives he lives. But the truth is I don't know. Education is less important amongst a certain number of their community, and without education you're not likely to see any of them working on the 'Henderson account'. Perhaps we need more people advocating higher levels of education amongst the Traveller community. Perhaps there's a voluntary role waiting for you. You seem well suited, because the lack of Travellers in your office is clearly on your mind.
    Chickentown wrote: »
    Instead I see them cruising around town in their 2015 Transit vans, tank top, jewellery, bowl style hair cut, you know the drill, causing absolute havoc everywhere they go.

    If that's what you think all Travellers look like, then the only Travellers you see will look like that.

    Chickentown wrote: »
    Do you read the court sections of your local paper each week, count how may travellers you see on there. Then count how many non-travellers you see, average it out over the 52 weeks.

    I work in a law firm, and I'm in court 2-3 times a week. We represent a number of Travellers, as do the other firms in town. As a said earlier, there does seem to be a disproportionate amount of them involved in criminality. There's also a disproportionate amount of people from council estates appearing in Court. But that's only the bare data. How you choose to interpret that data is key. People have a nasty tendency to reach for the conclusion that best fits their pre-conceptions.

    Incidentally, my local newspaper contains about 4 or 5 notes from the District Court each week, out of about 40 cases. There are a number of families in my town, some of them Travellers, who will always make it into the paper, regardless of the seriousness of their actions. In fact, a more serious or 'interesting' case will almost always have been presented to the Court that day, but it won't make the paper. My local newspaper has clearly identified what 'characters' they want to feature in the Court section of their paper each week, and it's actually foreign nationals that are worst effected. People from Eastern Europe received disproportionate converge in this particular paper, when in fact they often make up less than 1% of the defendants.
    Chickentown wrote: »
    Take a look at the number of imprisoned travellers last year. Put this number over the estimated total of travellers in the country, lets say 150'000 for arguments sake, now do the same for non-travellers, then come back on here and tell me what you think.

    Why don't you do the same for African Americans and tell me what you think. I want to know what conclusion you draw from both cases.


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    #86
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Tigger wrote: »
    I totally condemn the settled people you refer to in the courts
    do you totally condemn the Travelers that are involved in crime?
    I don't think that's the problem here. It's a complete unwillingness to accept that these problems disproportionately impact on the travelling community compared to the settled.


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    #87
    Boring username
    Closed Accounts Posts: 679 ✭✭✭Boring username


    Can I remind everyone that travellergirl has taken the opportunity to stick her neck out here and engage with us on boards. I understand there are a lot of people who have had negative experiences with travellers, but don't use travellergirl as a punching bag for your frustrations. Please direct your anger to those who are committing crimes, and the people who make excuses for criminality. Ask your questions by all means, but keep it civil.
    Thanks again.


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    #88
    TravellerGirl
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TravellerGirl


    Frynge wrote: »
    I would certainly support travallergirl's opinion that the community is changing for the better and I have personally experienced some of that change.

    Just to be explicit on what change I have noticed. I work in hotels and 15 years ago we would have switched the main breaker as opposed to serving a group of travellers. Anytime you heard of travellers being in a certain pub, you quickly heard of the trouble that was caused. Now when a group of travellers come into any of the hotels we can engage with them first to suss out if they will be trouble. Over the last year I would say we have had issues with travallers on 3 occasions.

    That would equate to about 3% of groups causing a problem which is certainly higher than any problems caused by settled people but is also very indicative of a changing culture, mentality and respect for other peoples property.

    One of those occasions was only last Tuesday, when two travaller woman decided to have a go at each other. In terms of incidents it was quite minor but as I was going into the bar from reception 3 (what I think were brothers) were leaving trough the bar door with one of them saying '**** sake, this is why we're not ****ing let in anywhere'.

    But then the week before I also had one come into the hotel looking for me to buy one of 5 brand new generators that had very questionable origins.

    Thank you. I find your post very true because in the New Year we were out celebrating and we were going home when we got set up by six or seven youths. My father in law got his arm broke and next thing I see is them running for my fiancee. I will never forget that night or that mans face. The youths inquestion was not travellers but in ffact settled people. Not since that night we are not allowed into the pubs even though we done nothing.


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    #89
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    TravellerGirl wrote: »
    No I can't give you that but if you are so smart at statistics why don't you give me it. I suppose whats wrong is that somewhere along the line something happened to you and you turned into a frightened judgemental little man. Poor you
    Nice delusional guesswork. You don't like the statistics and proof stuff so go for the personal and makey uppey. Classy.


    All Ireland Traveller Health Study
    Travellers as % of total in institution
    2002 5.9%
    2006 4.6%


    Now, try your best to answer without lame anecdotes or dreaming up some "run in" I've had to explain these proven facts.


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    #90
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Figures from fourteen of the eighteen Women’s Refuges in Ireland indicate that there is a shortage of refuge accommodation for women and children out of home because of domestic violence. 1,586 women and 2,741 children sought and accessed shelter in Women’s Refuges in Ireland in 2003 (NNWRSS & Sonas, 2003). Of these, 661 were settled women, 765 were Traveller women and 139 were foreign-national women. 21 of the women had a disability.

    Womensaid.ie report

    That's from 2003 and over half of women accessing shelters are travellers. I'll be blasted for using an old report so here is 2013
    37% of women accessing refuge identified themselves as Travellers,

    Womensaid.ie report

    I hope your fiance is a good 'un TravellerGirl. Actually he doesn't even have to be good, just normal.

    Over 50 per cent to 37 per cent in a decade might be called progress but it's still a shameful statistic for a group that's 0.6% of the population.

    Meanwhile the Man Up campaign targets us all by buying TV ads on RTE


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    #91
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    TravellerGirl wrote: »
    I'm getting at your community
    Get at it if you want. It has problems. Who has denied that?
    Now, are you willing to accept the easily provable fact that your community has far greater problems than mine?


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