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Pavee point in common sense shocker!

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24567…17

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    #32
    Renegade Mechanic
    Registered Users Posts: 7,934 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »
    I dont think it's barbaric but I do think it should be outlawed and the age upped to 18 minimum as most of these girls are uneducated and immature and too young to be able to make such an important life changing decision themselves.

    Implying that the girls in that culture get to make important life changing decisions at any point in their lives...?


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    #33
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    The usual casual bigotry emerges after a few posts. No surprise there. It's gas how people moan about Traveller threads being shut down straight away and then overlook the fact that it took about five seconds before people portray them as inherent criminals who have sex with their sisters.


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    #34
    Boring username
    Closed Accounts Posts: 679 ✭✭✭Boring username


    Sir Gallagher wrote: »
    Martin Collins really has a thankless job to be honest, trying to maintain the integrity of decent travellers all whilst the nutters of the community marry off their kids, organise fist fights on youtube and rob houses. Unfortunately for him the decent travellers out there they seem to be outnumbered.

    It's a welcome comment from him, i'm sure he's sick of the bullsh1t and trash in his own community. He comes across as a good man, he must feel as though he's banging his head against a brick wall.

    I see where you're coming from, but he'd have a lot more support if he came straight out and admitted that there is a major, major problem with criminality and violence in the travelling community.
    Instead, he tries to play the race card every time there is a (usually legitimate) criticism of travellers. That's where he loses most of the audience. If he is serious about changing the backward culture, he first needs to admit there is a problem within. It's not the fault of society at large.


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    #35
    excuse_me
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 11 ✭excuse_me


    FTA69 wrote: »
    The usual casual bigotry emerges after a few posts. No surprise there. It's gas how people moan about Traveller threads being shut down straight away and then overlook the fact that it took about five seconds before people portray them as inherent criminals who have sex with their sisters.

    most travellers are involved in criminality of one kind or another , defrauding social wellfare is a crime and the vast majority of them engage in this

    your attempts to shut down debate by implying the R word are predictable


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    #36
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    FTA69 wrote: »
    The usual casual bigotry emerges after a few posts. No surprise there. It's gas how people moan about Traveller threads being shut down straight away and then overlook the fact that it took about five seconds before people portray them as inherent criminals who have sex with their sisters.
    It isn't casual when the criminality rate and shallow gene pool are incredibly well documented at this stage.


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    #37
    excuse_me
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 11 ✭excuse_me


    Boring username wrote: »
    I see where you're coming from, but he'd have a lot more support if he came straight out and admitted that there is a major, major problem with criminality and violence in the travelling community.
    Instead, he tries to play the race card every time there is a (usually legitimate) criticism of travellers. That's where he loses most of the audience. If he is serious about changing the backward culture, he first needs to admit there is a problem within. It's not the fault of society at large.

    collins only concerned about attaining immunity from the law for travellers which is what the drive for ethnic recognition is all about , that and attaining more handouts

    he has zero interest in adressing traveller crime , let alone acknowledging it


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    #38
    excuse_me
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 11 ✭excuse_me


    Boring username wrote: »
    I see where you're coming from, but he'd have a lot more support if he came straight out and admitted that there is a major, major problem with criminality and violence in the travelling community.
    Instead, he tries to play the race card every time there is a (usually legitimate) criticism of travellers. That's where he loses most of the audience. If he is serious about changing the backward culture, he first needs to admit there is a problem within. It's not the fault of society at large.

    collins only concerned about attaining immunity from the law for travellers which is what the drive for ethnic recognition is all about ( the race card can be played during trials etc ) , that and attaining more handouts

    he has zero interest in adressing traveller crime , let alone acknowledging it


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    #39
    mikehn
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭mikehn


    I'm conflicted, in this day and age what exactly is a "traveller" and what elements of their culture needs to be preserved . What are the advantages of seeking to maintain this lifestyle in modern Ireland.
    Growing up in the 60's I had occasional contact with a number of traveller families and found them to be very ordinary decent people who got on well with their neighbours. I think the word traveler today is a misnomer as as soon as they marry they seem to be on the housing list for a council house.The laws of the land are against dropping the caravan where ever you feel like it so that element of the travelling culture seems to be gone, like the farmers grazing the long acre. Casual trading now has revenue twitching their noses and requesting accounts. So does tradition trump the law. I dunno I just wish that someone from the Traveller community would explain it to the general population.


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    #40
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    oceanman wrote: »
    plenty of countries allow marriage at 16....whats barbaric about it?

    The pressure that is put on them to make such a commitment at such a young age.


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    #41
    Right Turn Clyde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Right Turn Clyde


    excuse_me wrote: »
    most travellers are involved in criminality of one kind or another , defrauding social wellfare is a crime and the vast majority of them engage in this

    You're really gonna have to start backing those arguments up. I've heard nothing but conjecture from you so far.


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    #42
    excuse_me
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 11 ✭excuse_me


    mikehn wrote: »
    I'm conflicted, in this day and age what exactly is a "traveller" and what elements of their culture needs to be preserved . What are the advantages of seeking to maintain this lifestyle in modern Ireland.
    Growing up in the 60's I had occasional contact with a number of traveller families and found them to be very ordinary decent people who got on well with their neighbours. I think the word traveler today is a misnomer as as soon as they marry they seem to be on the housing list for a council house.The laws of the land are against dropping the caravan where ever you feel like it so that element of the travelling culture seems to be gone, like the farmers grazing the long acre. Casual trading now has revenue twitching their noses and requesting accounts. So does tradition trump the law. I dunno I just wish that someone from the Traveller community would explain it to the general population.

    travellers are a high minded civics project and cash cow for the do gooder sector in the former and the legal profession in the latter

    for most people they are a huge drain on our taxes , eventually this menace will have to be dealt with by politicans as people will have had enough and the PC liberals who have such a romanticised view of them ( from leafy south dublin ) will be put back in their box

    you cannot continue to sweep an issue under the carpet which the media and the chattering class do in this country when it comes to travellers , political correctness is all about denying the truth and sounding good instead of doing good on every issue , political correctness is one of the reason the dysfunctional culture of the travelling community is not dealt with honestly


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    #43
    Corvo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,661 ✭✭✭Corvo


    Right Turn Clyde wrote: »
    You're really gonna have to start backing those arguments up. I've heard nothing but conjecture from you so far.

    Back them up? Have you never encountered travellers or what?


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    #44
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    FTA69 wrote: »
    It's gas how people moan about Traveller threads being shut down straight away and then overlook the fact that it took about five seconds before people portray them as inherent criminals who have sex with their sisters.

    Ah come on now.
    Not all of them marry their sisters......


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    #45
    Renegade Mechanic
    Registered Users Posts: 7,934 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    http://cdn.meme.am/instances/55338658.jpg


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    #46
    Sir Gallagher
    Registered Users Posts: 6,836 ✭✭✭Sir Gallagher


    Boring username wrote: »
    I see where you're coming from, but he'd have a lot more support if he came straight out and admitted that there is a major, major problem with criminality and violence in the travelling community.
    Instead, he tries to play the race card every time there is a (usually legitimate) criticism of travellers. That's where he loses most of the audience. If he is serious about changing the backward culture, he first needs to admit there is a problem within. It's not the fault of society at large.

    Thats fair enough to be honest. I just feel for good travellers out there trying to break the cycle. If you write off the whole community then they'll never change, which will in turn have a detrimental effect on the wider society.


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    #47
    Boring username
    Closed Accounts Posts: 679 ✭✭✭Boring username


    Sir Gallagher wrote: »
    Thats fair enough to be honest. I just feel for good travellers out there trying to break the cycle. If you write off the whole community then they'll never change, which will in turn have a detrimental effect on the wider society.

    I know what you mean. I've met plenty of travellers who were skilled with their hands or had a lot of academic promise, but they openly admitted the travelling community would turn on them if they tried taking a course or furthering their education. I think most people would admit not all are bad, but bitter experience has taught the public to keep their guard up. Isn't it a sad state of affairs when your own community threatens violence if you try to get out of the cycle of despair. And before you know it, they're being brought out for a day in the countryside visiting old single farmers.....


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    #48
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,070 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    arayess wrote: »
    but the legal age of marriage has nothing to do with this.
    It's not like the min age of 16 is forcing people to get married

    Of course you're right. I suppose my point is that if they have a chance to look around, they will have a better chance to take education seriously. Imagine the choices available to a girl who expects to be married, and pregnant, at age 16 and live the rest of her life as a, semi-literate, housewife.

    It's called career foreclosure. Children just expect to go into their parent's career. For most it's just a phase which ends when children have a chance to look around at the possibilities. If you're married at 16, you're committed to the lifestyle.

    Not that they should choose to live a different life, but they should have the choice and raising the minimum age will help offer that.


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    #49
    Right Turn Clyde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Right Turn Clyde


    Corvo wrote: »
    Back them up? Have you never encountered travellers or what?

    There's two families on my block, loads more in my estate and I had a pint with an elderly Traveller man about 15 hours ago. My mother works with young Traveller children, and since January I've also started to engage with some of them in a professional capacity. So yeah, I've encountered Travellers before.

    Personally, I have had many, many negative experiences with Travellers, so much so that I have learned to be wary of them, and I suspect I will always feel that way. However, I have also met a lot of really decent people who are trying their best, but who have very serious problems, a lot of which are beyond their comprehension. For example, I spoke to a middle-aged Traveller woman recently who honestly did not understand the importance of her child remaining in school, which is tragically ironic.

    Just under 30,000 people described themselves as Travellers in the 2011 Census, and there's a reasonable assumption there than many Travellers did not engage with it. So the number is likely higher, perhaps considerably so. That is a lot of people. It's more people than live in my town. That's every single person I seen and spoke to all week, multiplied over and over again, and it still wouldn't come close to the amount of Travellers that are in Ireland. I simply cannot understand how you, or anyone else, can speak so casually about such a large number of people.


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    #50
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Right Turn Clyde wrote: »
    I simply cannot understand how you, or anyone else, can speak so casually about such a large number of people.
    Why not? They are attempting to generalise about themselves by claiming to have unique culture and ethnicity, yet nobody else is permitted to comment on this "distinct" by their own preference group of people?


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    #51
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Raising the marriage age won't change things. It will just delay the inevitable. I've met many traveller women who married in their 20's but were still being married off to men they hardly knew because it was good for their family. I live beside a traveller family with a daughter getting married to a man she has only seen a handful of times and never alone. I don't understand these parents who think so little of their children that they would put family politics ahead of love and genuine emotions. Nothing will change until travellers start treating women as equals and the children are allowed be educated. I'm actually disgusted that the authorities in this country allow travellers to neglect their children like this without repercussions.


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    #52
    Chickentown
    Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭Chickentown


    Right Turn Clyde wrote: »
    There's two families on my block, loads more in my estate and I had a pint with an elderly Traveller man about 15 hours ago. My mother works with young Traveller children, and since January I've also started to engage with some of them in a professional capacity. So yeah, I've encountered Travellers before.

    Personally, I have had many, many negative experiences with Travellers, so much so that I have learned to be wary of them, and I suspect I will always feel that way. However, I have also met a lot of really decent people who are trying their best, but who have very serious problems, a lot of which are beyond their comprehension. For example, I spoke to a middle-aged Traveller woman recently who honestly did not understand the importance of her child remaining in school, which is tragically ironic.

    There is clearly an issue with criminally and social welfare fraud amongst the Traveller community. I haven't got the stats to hand, but they were produced on here before. The basic finding was that those issues are disproportionately prominent when compared to the rest of the population. But crude generalisations have no place in an intelligent discussion.

    Just under 30,000 people described themselves as Travellers in the 2011 Census, and there's a reasonable assumption there than many Travellers did not engage with it. So the number is likely higher, perhaps considerably so. That is a lot of people. It's more people than live in my town. That's every single person I seen and spoke to all week, multiplied over and over again, and it it still would't come close to the amount of Travellers that are in Ireland. I simply cannot understand how you can speak so casually about such a large number of people.

    Your post reads great to be honest, very well thought out, but it fails to tackle one specific aspect of the traveller community which I can never get my head around; I have met roughly around 1000 travelers in my life so far, how come I have never met a good one?

    I mean if we always hear about the small minority causing all the trouble, why don't I see the good ones in the cubicle next to me at work, frantically trying to finialise the Henderson account before 5:30pm?

    Instead I see them cruising around town in their 2015 Transit vans, tank top, jewellery, bowl style hair cut, you know the drill, causing absolute havoc everywhere they go. Do you read the court sections of your local paper each week, count how may travellers you see on there. Then count how many non-travellers you see, average it out over the 52 weeks.

    Also on your point of their being 30'000 travellers in the country, but probably more (since many couldn't be bothered to fill out a form, presumably).

    Take a look at the number of imprisoned travellers last year. Put this number over the estimated total of travellers in the country, lets say 150'000 for arguments sake, now do the same for non-travellers, then come back on here and tell me what you think.

    Before you ask, I have not bothered to perform this calculation, I know the answer already.


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    #53
    TravellerGirl
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭TravellerGirl


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    age is not really the issue if you're marrying your sister anyway



    I am Traveller girl and I find your post very wrong and disgusting in a number of ways. First things first they is no-one marrying their sisters that is called incest and if you are as smart as you think you are you should ask a member of your local Garda and they will tell you its against the law.
    Secondly I have read countless stories about the settled community falling in love with their parent/sibling. To be honest thats a little freaky.
    Our parents might be strict on us but that is only called taking care of your child and they dont rush us into marriage. I am 20 years old and I am not married yet, I am living with my fiance who is a Traveller man.
    I left school at the age of 14 not because of my family or myself but because I was getting bullied by settled people. I then went on to being home-schooled and then eventually went to Youthreach where I left with a Childcare Level 3&4 module done and Computers Level 3&4.

    There might be bad apples in the Traveller Community but I can also say the same for Settled people. But I don't judge all of you the same so why do the same with us.


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    #54
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    TravellerGirl wrote: »
    I am Traveller girl and I find your post very wrong and disgusting in a number of ways. First things first they is no-one marrying their sisters that is called incest and if you are as smart as you think you are you should ask a member of your local Garda and they will tell you its against the law.
    Secondly I have read countless stories about the settled community falling in love with their parent/sibling. To be honest thats a little freaky.
    Our parents might be strict on us but that is only called taking care of your child and they dont rush us into marriage. I am 20 years old and I am not married yet, I am living with my fiance who is a Traveller man.
    I left school at the age of 14 not because of my family or myself but because I was getting bullied by settled people. I then went on to being home-schooled and then eventually went to Youthreach where I left with a Childcare Level 3&4 module done and Computers Level 3&4.

    There might be bad apples in the Traveller Community but I can also say the same for Settled people. But I don't judge all of you the same so why do the same with us.

    Great to get input from someone actually in the community for once
    Don't mind the idiot comments, par of the course here on AH. Well done on all you have achieved but I'd imagine your the exception rather than the rule. We can't tar everyone with the same brush but neither can we ignore the major issues in the community that wouldn't be accepted within the settled community.


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    #55
    Right Turn Clyde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Right Turn Clyde


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why not? They are attempting to generalise about themselves by claiming to have unique culture and ethnicity, yet nobody else is permitted to comment on this "distinct" by their own preference group of people?

    Nobody is allowed to comment on their separate ethnicity? You're doing it right now. In fact, one of the reasons they're not yet recognised as a separate ethnicity in this jurisdiction is because it's a matter of ongoing debate. Stop inventing problems for yourself. People are allowed to say what they want about Travellers, and always do. Read over every thread about Travellers on the forum and you won't find anyone mincing their words. Also, do some research for a change. Look up what ethnicity actually means, and what the latest developments are in relation to Traveller ethnicity. There's a powerful tool sitting on your lap. Spend a bit of time on it and find out what's happening outside your bedroom.


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    #56
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Should this not be a matter for the government? Why is the Catholic Church being allowed to decide things like this?

    Because from Pavee Points stance the majority of Irish travellers are Catholics and want their union to be recognised by the church.


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    #57
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Chickentown wrote: »
    Before you ask, I have not bothered to perform this calculation, I know the answer already.
    It looks like around 5% of prisoners are travellers (5.9% in 2002, 4.6% in 2006). Unless things have changed dramatically over the last decade.
    Are travellers 5% of the population of Ireland?
    Not a chance.
    Travellers are also well documented to have increased genetic disorders, which is associated with inbreeding.
    Now, some call this "generalising" or "lumping together casually", but sorry, this is simple statistics. Travellers are more likely to be criminals, alcoholics and inbred. Research tells us this conclusively.


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    #58
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    Because from Pavee Points stance the majority of Irish travellers are Catholics and want their union to be recognised by the church.
    Precisely. Let them take it up with the church. Not the governments business to be pandering to travellers yet again.


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    #59
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    It looks like around 5% of prisoners are travellers (5.9% in 2002, 4.6% in 2006). Unless things have changed dramatically over the last decade.
    Are travellers 5% of the population of Ireland?
    Not a chance.
    Travellers are also well documented to have increased genetic disorders, which is associated with inbreeding.
    Now, some call this "generalising" or "lumping together casually", but sorry, this is simple statistics. Travellers are more likely to be criminals, alcoholics and inbred. Research tells us this conclusively.

    And all the other problems like higher rates of suicide, infant mortality, miscarriage, cancer, heart disease, lower life expectancy.


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    #60
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Right Turn Clyde wrote: »
    Nobody is allowed to comment on their separate ethnicity? You're doing it right now.
    For real?
    I'm being told we're not allowed to comment on travellers as a group. I refuse to comply.
    Didn't think it was all that complex TBH.


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    #61
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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