Dutch to ban Halal and Kosher meat production

Duke Leonal Felmet · 07-11-2011 3:52pm

humanji wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

But that says nothing of the people themselves, their background, etc. We all know that religion can cause good people to commit evil acts (mutiliating childrens genitals, etc).

So really, if one must fear the product of religion, then religion is the source of the fear.

Hence, Islamophobia is a misnomer, and just a substitute word for calling someone a racist, where race doesn't apply.

But now you're no longer seperating the people from the religion. Religions are a set of rules that people can follow to whatever extent they want. Assuming that all followers of a particular religion follow to the exact same extent is a ridiculous assumption to make. It's irrational to fear a religion because of a minority of followers of that religion. Hence "Islamaphobia".

Really? This is exactly the kind of thinking that allows moderates to demand 'respect' where it is not warranted, makes public figures afraid to criticise religion, for fear of being labelled with a misnomer, and worst of all, provides a barrier for the minority to hide behind. Lose-lose.

Finally, say if people stopped following Islam, or whatever relgion. And say you believe that religion caused violence among those who followed it. It is not irrational to still fear that religion, despite no one following it. As you know what negative effect it has.

It's like not fearing National Socialism, as an ideology. Or any other lunatic belief that commands few or no followers.

Your argument is juvenile and ridiculous. (thought I would pop that in, as a sort of homage to your posting style, keep it up)

RichieC · 07-11-2011 3:53pm

If the animal suffers unduly the meat is not properly considered Halal.. I assume the death is fast since they cut the carotid artery...

this stinks of "get the muzzies" only they can't do it without involving Kosher... which means it wont go anywhere.

humanji · 07-11-2011 3:53pm

ch750536 wrote: »

Guns can't hurt me either by that definition. Yay! no more gun fear!

You're afraid of inanimate objects?

sensibleken · 07-11-2011 3:57pm

humanji wrote: »

You're afraid of inanimate objects?

being hit by them is scary.

humanji · 07-11-2011 4:03pm

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Really? This is exactly the kind of thinking that allows moderates to demand 'respect' where it is not warranted, makes public figures afraid to criticise religion, for fear of being labelled with a misnomer, and worst of all, provides a barrier for the minority to hide behind. Lose-lose.

Nothing close to what I said. I'm saying that making an assumption that someone must act a certain way because of your own preconcieved notions is illogical and that's where racism and the like stem from. Instead of judging people for who they are, you assume the worst.

Finally, say if people stopped following Islam, or whatever relgion. And say you believe that religion caused violence among those who followed it. It is not irrational to still fear that religion, despite no one following it. As you know what negative effect it has.

It is not rational to fear an idea. The idea can't hurt you. Those putting the idea into practice are the ones that may need to be feared. But simply fearing them because they may use the ideas in a certain way is also irrational.

It's like not fearing National Socialism, as an ideology. Or any other lunatic belief that commands few or no followers.

It's identical.

Your argument is juvenile and ridiculous. (thought I would pop that in, as a sort of homage to your posting style, keep it up)

I'm not sure what I've done to deserve this. Please point out where I've done you a disservice.

humanji · 07-11-2011 4:04pm

sensibleken wrote: »

being hit by them is scary.

If it's inanimate it isn't moving. Someone or something else must have moved it, therefore it's more logical to be afraid of that force, and not the object.

who the fug · 07-11-2011 4:06pm

humanji wrote: »

If it's inanimate it isn't moving. Someone or something else must have moved it, therefore it's more logical to be afraid of that force, and not the object.

So he/she is scared of running into them

Mike 1972 · 07-11-2011 4:14pm

Presumably Muslims and Jews in the Netherlands will still be able to buy halal/kosher meat imported frozen from other EU countries so the ban is going to make damn all difference as far as animal welfare is concerned ?

Is there any actual requirement for Muslims and Jews to follow such a diet as opposed to a vegetarian one ?

Incidently there are Kebab shops which sell non-Halal meat (and even Pork) probably not many though.

Were this measure being introduced at the same time as a ban on battery (and factory) farming there might be some credibility in claims that it was solely motivated by animal welfare but this is clearly not the case.

Seaneh wrote: »

This the same Netherlands who's government recently said where abandoning Multi-Culturalism? The same Netherlands who are trying to make it so you have to "fit in" to live there?

Dunno how theyre going to manage that given that the Netherlands have been multicultural for centuries.

humanji · 07-11-2011 4:14pm

who the fug wrote: »

So he/she is scared of running into them

An action that they themselves cause. And in the case of guns, what are the chances of running into a gun? It's incredibly unlikely, and even if you did, the chances of it hurting you are incredibly low. So low as to make the fear of that line of coincidences happening irrational. And that's why it'd be a phobia.

I'm not saying you can't be scared of certain things.

sensibleken · 07-11-2011 4:18pm

humanji wrote: »

If it's inanimate it isn't moving. Someone or something else must have moved it, therefore it's more logical to be afraid of that force, and not the object.

now you see thats what i thought too. but i looked it up and apparantely its something that bears no life, animate meaning to give life.

so i can still be afraid of a brick hitting me in the head rather than gravity.

who the fug · 07-11-2011 4:18pm

humanji wrote: »

I'm not saying you can't be scared of certain things.

Like being stuck in the poppy thread

denhaagenite · 07-11-2011 4:19pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Incidently there are Kebab shops which sell non-Halal meat (and even Pork) probably not many though.

Ya. Greek ones. Souvlaki FTW!!

ScumLord · 07-11-2011 4:23pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Presumably Muslims and Jews in the Netherland will still be able to buy halal/kosher meat imported frozen from other EU countries so the ban is going to make damn all difference as far as animal welfare is concerned ?

I don't think that's really a fair way to look at it. It would be like saying we shouldn't bother with health care in Ireland because there will be people in other countries that won't be able to take advantage of it. The Netherlands are doing what's best for it's animal citizens. they can't do much about other countries but they can at least look out for their own.

They really should back it up with a ban though, I do think it's a bit of a cop out to just push the problem into another country. I think it's the same as bringing in safer (and more expensive) working environments here and then importing the stuff from countries that don't have the same high standards as it's cheaper is just horribly dumb.

humanji · 07-11-2011 4:26pm

sensibleken wrote: »

now you see thats what i thought too. but i looked it up and apparantely its something that bears no life, animate meaning to give life.

so i can still be afraid of a brick hitting me in the head rather than gravity.

Both words have several meanings. Animating doesn't only mean to give life. It also means give motion. The object is inanimate in that it isn't alive. Animating it by throwing it isn't giving it life, it's giving it motion. So you can animate an inanimate object and have it remain inanimate.

Granted, this is way off-topic, but God help anyone who has to learn English as a secondary language.

Mike 1972 · 07-11-2011 4:26pm

denhaagenite wrote: »

Ya. Greek ones. Souvlaki FTW!!

Nope I get mine from a TurkKurdish owned establishment.

Not everyone from that part of the world is Muslim (and even those who are need not necessairly be particularly devout) you know.

BTW Kebabs were actually invented in Germany (albeit by Turkish immigrants)

ScumLord wrote: »

They really should back it up with a ban though, I do think it's a bit of a cop out to just push the problem into another country. .

As long as the production is legal in at least one EU country there are probably some practical difficulties with an outright ban Id imagine ?

sensibleken · 07-11-2011 4:27pm

falafels better anyway

denhaagenite · 07-11-2011 4:32pm

sensibleken wrote: »

falafels better anyway

Have you noticed that they sell Halal falafel in the AH? How do they kill the chickpeas?

Mike 1972 · 07-11-2011 4:32pm

Incidently what is the law in the Netherlands in relation to the non-medically necessary ritual mutuilation of male infant genitals ?

denhaagenite · 07-11-2011 4:44pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Incidently what is the law in the Netherlands in relation to the non-medically necessary ritual mutuilation of male infant genitals ?

I've just had a quick look and as far as I can tell it's allowed :eek:

ScumLord · 07-11-2011 4:44pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

As long as the production is legal in at least one EU country there are probably some practical difficulties with an outright ban Id imagine ?

The Dutch know all about blurring those lines. But I'm sure if they have a standard set by the food board to do with welfare and food production and it's of a higher standard than other European countries, those other European countries wouldn't be able to force anything on them for purely financial reasons. I'd like to think that anyway.

Dudess · 07-11-2011 4:48pm

goose2005 wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

I'd agree to a point, but some customs don't affect anyone else and people should be left to practise them.

But they affect the animals. If I decided to kill a sheep by cutting off its legs and kicking it in the head, I couldn't argue in my defence that standard slaughter methods also cause pain, because it's universally acknowledged that my method is much more painful.

I don't mean this custom, just in general.

RichieC · 07-11-2011 4:52pm

seems you can't trust any site to give you the honest lowdown on Halal.

I just read Halal slaughter is particularly bad when done on pigs :rolleyes:

Seems to me it just looks worse than the western way due to all the blood but that the sudden loss in blood pressure from a deep cut to the jugular renders the animal unconscious is a few seconds.

What I'd really like to see here is someone who actually knows wtf they're talking about to weigh in, not a bunch of potato monkeys out to black eye the Muslims and Jews.

super_furry · 07-11-2011 4:53pm

I think this is as much about animal rights and Sarkozy's hijab ban was about preventing bank robberies.

Jerri Jordan · 07-11-2011 4:55pm

slaughter is slaughter.
If people are more comfortable with what is on the end of their forks, cos it got a stun gun to the head as opposed to its throat slit then they are fooling themselves.

biko · 07-11-2011 5:02pm

humanji wrote: »

Because a religion can't harm you. It's the people who follow it that can.

No offence but that kinda sounds like "guns don't kill people, people kill people".
The question imo is "would people be killing others if they didn't have religion to blame?" Today they do blame it on religion.

On topic, I agree with anything that minimises the pain animals are subjected to when they are killed for meat.
Unfortunately cost and religious humbug gets in the way.

stevedublin · 07-11-2011 5:12pm

why the focus by the OP on the fact that Hal'al meat production being banned, when kosher meat production is being banned also?
Is it to do with the fact that this ban is being made to "get at" Muslims rather than any other reason e.g. animal welfare?

humanji · 07-11-2011 5:17pm

biko wrote: »

No offence but that kinda sounds like "guns don't kill people, people kill people".
The question imo is "would people be killing others if they didn't have religion to blame?" Today they do blame it on religion.

It was in answer to the statement "I'm not talking about Muslims here. Islam is a religion, a set of rules and beliefs. Why is it irrational to fear a religion?"

If you take the people out of the equation, then it's irrational to fear something that is meaningless and nobody pays attention to.

On topic, I agree with anything that minimises the pain animals are subjected to when they are killed for meat.
Unfortunately cost and religious humbug gets in the way.

The method posted above for Nitrogen Asphyxiation seems to be the best of both worlds. If a group of animals were put into a chamber, given a bit of food to munch on and then gassed, they'd feel nothing and you'd get several done in one go. There'd be little clean up, and you wouldn't freak out any of the other animals waiting to go into the chamber.

Granted, it has a few similarities to concentration camps, so I wouldn't be surprised if some Jewish people thought it was in bad taste.

Halal Butcher · 07-11-2011 5:21pm

RichieC wrote: »

What I'd really like to see here is someone who actually knows wtf they're talking about to weigh in, not a bunch of potato monkeys out to black eye the Muslims and Jews.

Halal slaughter is more humane way.

Experimentation by Schultz in Germany is showing this...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111104204843AAfCuY4

Siuin · 07-11-2011 5:22pm

Halal Butcher wrote: »

Halal slaughter is more humane way.

Experimentation in Germany is showing this...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111104204843AAfCuY4

Coming from a totally impartial source, of course

sensibleken · 07-11-2011 5:23pm

Halal Butcher wrote: »

Halal slaughter is more humane way.

Experimentation in Germany is showing this...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111104204843AAfCuY4

I havent read the link yet. but jesus christ how ominous do those two sentences sound

Dutch to ban Halal and Kosher meat production

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