Dutch to ban Halal and Kosher meat production

kraggy

It's looking very likely that the Dutch will vote next month to ban Halal and Kosher meat production in their country.

The proposal is mostly about animal welfare, but the far right in the Netherlands have also said that they are going to back it. Many see this as part of their anti-Muslim stance.

Halal and Kosher meat production is insanely cruel. The animals are not stunned. The animal's throat is slit with the animal left on the floor until all the blood has poured out and the animal dies an agonising death, very very slowly.

Muslims arguments for Halal meat production are that the Qur'an tells them that an animal is only clean for consumption if the blood has been removed. However, both the Qur'an and bible say many things, that Muslims and Christians quite rightly take with a pinch of salt. So, why do Muslims insist on taking this part of their scripture so literally and kill animals in such a barbaric way?

Also good to point out that most Indian restaurants and Turkish kebab places in Ireland and everywhere else sell only Halal meat. So your Sunday kebab usually contains meat from animals killed in this manner.

What it will mean in the Netherlands if the ban comes into place, is that any halal meat consumed in the country will have to be imported, and thus will be frozen.

BBC News Video:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15610142

Owen

Could never understand how it's allowed TBH, I watched a Gordon Ramsey show where he had an animal on screen being killed in a Halal fashion, was pretty disgusting. Nothing humane about it at all.

Einhard

I applaud their efforts to cut down on animal cruelty, and look forward to the legislation prohibiting battery farming which will no doubt be introduced soon.

I mean, it's all about animal rights innit? Nothing else...

Cavehill Red

We don't live in the desert any more and imaginary sky daddy is no longer materialising in burning bushes to schizophrenic people telling them what way he'd like us to butcher animals.

I expect there'll be whining about religious liberties and dire warnings of Holland lurching to the right and so on, but let's be real, Halal and Kosher is antiquated, cruel BS with no place in the modern world.

strobe

Isn't the Netherlands one of the biggest exporters of veal in Europe?

kraggy

Einhard wrote: »

I applaud their efforts to cut down on animal cruelty, and look forward to the legislation prohibiting battery farming which will no doubt be introduced soon.

I mean, it's all about animal rights innit? Nothing else...

That's due to come in from next year. I think there are negotiations to delay it a year or 2 as farmers are up in arms about it. But battery's will be outlawed altogether quite soon thankfully.

stovelid

And it pisses off the mussies so it's a result all around.

Keith186

Owen wrote: »

Could never understand how it's allowed TBH, I watched a Gordon Ramsey show where he had an animal on screen being killed in a Halal fashion, was pretty disgusting. Nothing humane about it at all.

The stun gun way isn't exactly humane either so IMO people shouldn't really complain about this if they eat meat.

cormie

It may be more cruel than regular slaughter methods, but regular slaughter methods are still cruel. As could the very thought of raising an animal for the sole purpose of human benefit.

kraggy

Keith186 wrote: »

The stun gun way isn't exactly humane either so IMO people shouldn't really complain about this if they eat meat.

Banning the cruelest method of all is a good first step towards improving animal welfare.

southsiderosie

kraggy wrote: »

The proposal is mostly about animal welfare,

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Right.

NoHornJan

If you eat meat, animals will be killed.
Animals have been farmed for centuries
for human consumption.
At the moment beef prices are great.

Seaneh

kraggy wrote: »

I Qur'an and bible say many things, that Muslims and Christians quite rightly take with a pinch of salt.[/B]

like what?

kraggy

southsiderosie wrote: »

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Right.

Why are you laughing?

The proposal wasn't made by the far-right in the Netherlands. They just supported it when it went to the vote.

The result of the vote was 116-30 in favour of banning.

This reflects a general desire in the Netherlands to improve animal welfare.

starbelgrade

Slaughter methods in any slaughterhouse are painful for animals. There's no method by which you can kill a live animal that it won't feel pain. To think otherwise is simply ridiculous.

Son Of A Vidic

Looks like all them years of smoking pot, is turning the Dutch into a paranoid, xenophobic little Nazi state.

starbelgrade

kraggy wrote: »

This reflects a general desire in the Netherlands to improve animal welfare.

If they really cared about animal welfare, then they'd stop eating them.

Seaneh

This the same Netherlands who's government recently said where abandoning Multi-Culturalism? The same Netherlands who are trying to make it so you have to "fit in" to live there?

Yeah, this is all about animal welfare...

Seaneh

starbelgrade wrote: »

Slaughter methods in any slaughterhouse are painful for animals. There's no method by which you can kill a live animal that it won't feel pain. To think otherwise is simply ridiculous.

This.

There is no such thing as a good death for an Animal no matter that anyone tells you, the only think we can do is improve their standards if living while they are being reared.

brendansmith

starbelgrade wrote: »

Slaughter methods in any slaughterhouse are painful for animals. There's no method by which you can kill a live animal that it won't feel pain. To think otherwise is simply ridiculous.

lethal injection?

kraggy

Seaneh wrote: »

like what?

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

"The Bible nowhere explicitly condemns slavery, but allowed a regulated practice of it"

Can't remember which book in the bible, but I read it before and it said that man is allowed to have x amount of slaves for x number of years and gives the conditions under which they should be held.

There's a shed load of wacky stuff in the bible, both Old and New Testaments.

If people took it literally, the world would be one ****ed up place.

starbelgrade

brendansmith wrote: »

lethal injection?

I don't think they'd be safe to eat with lethal chemicals in them.

Cavehill Red

Seaneh wrote: »

This the same Netherlands who's government recently said where abandoning Multi-Culturalism? The same Netherlands who are trying to make it so you have to "fit in" to live there?

Yeah, this is all about animal welfare...

Merkel, Sarkozy and Cameron have all made similar statements in recent times. Britain is introducing a citizenship test. It's perfectly sensible to expect people who come to live in a country to adhere to its cultural norms.

However, this move is not related to the debate about multiculturalism. It's an animal welfare issue. Halal and Kosher are barbaric and inhumane methods incompatible with modern European standards of animal husbandry.

starbelgrade

kraggy wrote: »

If people took it literally, the world would be one ****ed up place.

You should see the new season of Dexter.

Einhard

Seaneh wrote: »

This.

There is no such thing as a good death for an Animal no matter that anyone tells you, the only think we can do is improve their standards if living while they are being reared.

I don't think there's such a thing as a good death for any living creature. However, surely some methods of death can be less painful and traumatic than others, and if so should be pursued.

Having said that, I'm somewhat cynical that this is all about giving rights to animals, as opposed to taking them from Muslims (one in the same thing I s'pose, in the eyes of some extremists).

southsiderosie

kraggy wrote: »

Why are you laughing?

The proposal wasn't made by the far-right in the Netherlands. They just supported it when it went to the vote.

The result of the vote was 116-30 in favour of banning.

This reflects a general desire in the Netherlands to improve animal welfare.

The Dutch Animal Rights party that supported the legislation has two representatives in the legislature, so I have to question how much Dutch voters care about animal welfare as a political issue.

In addition, the European Court of Human Rights has already ruled that ritual slaughter of animals is a protected religious right, so I don't know why the Dutch even went through with this legislation for anything other than to make a domestic political point, as the ECHR will strike the law down after the inevitable lawsuit.

kraggy

Einhard wrote: »

I don't think there's such a thing as a good death for any living creature. However, surely some methods of death can be less painful and traumatic than others, and if so should be pursued.

Having said that, I'm somewhat cynical that this is all about giving rights to animals, as opposed to taking them from Muslims (one in the same thing I s'pose, in the eyes of some extremists).

They're looking to ban Kosher (Jewish) meat production too.

Einhard

Cavehill Red wrote: »

However, this move is not related to the debate about multiculturalism. It's an animal welfare issue. Halal and Kosher are barbaric and inhumane methods incompatible with modern European standards of animal husbandry.

I'd like to think so, but there's been an awful lot of blatantly xenophobic BS coming from the Netherlands and other parts of Europe recently, so that I'm somewhat cynical. If the Netherlands were to ban battery farming and and other extreme methods of meat production, I might think differently, but I don't see anything about such legislation.

starbelgrade

kraggy wrote: »

They're looking to ban Kosher (Jewish) meat production too.

Anne Frankly the Jews aren't happy about that.

Einhard

kraggy wrote: »

They're looking to ban Kosher (Jewish) meat production too.

Yes, but they could hardly ban one and not the other.

SteelyDanJalapeno

starbelgrade wrote: »

If they really cared about animal welfare, then they'd stop eating them.

I pretty much told my butcher this,

but he assured that they are not killed, instead he waits for them to die of an accident or old age before displaying them.

Cavehill Red

Einhard wrote: »

I'd like to think so, but there's been an awful lot of blatantly xenophobic BS coming from the Netherlands and other parts of Europe recently, so that I'm somewhat cynical. If the Netherlands were to ban battery farming and and other extreme methods of meat production, I might think differently, but I don't see anything about such legislation.

Didn't look very hard, did you?
The EU had introduced a directive on this and the Netherlands are expected to be among the first to be compliant.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/aug/31/farmers-flout-battery-hen-ban

Biggins

kraggy wrote: »

It's looking very likely that the Dutch will vote next month to ban Halal and Kosher meat production in their country...

Good for them!
Our fcuking lot are useless at tackling these things!

Cill Dara Abu

There's loads of these videos on Youtube of cattle, sheep and pigs being slaughtered cruelly, its very disturbing watching them. The people that do these jobs must have no heart.

Einhard

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Didn't look very hard, did you?
The EU had introduced a directive on this and the Netherlands are expected to be among the first to be compliant.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/aug/31/farmers-flout-battery-hen-ban

I didn't look at all tbh. It's 1.44am and I don't go trawling the internet to put flesh on the bones of every thread I read in this place! But thanks for the link. If it states what you claim it states, then I might change my mind- as I said I would.

Seaneh

kraggy wrote: »

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

"The Bible nowhere explicitly condemns slavery, but allowed a regulated practice of it"

Can't remember which book in the bible, but I read it before and it said that man is allowed to have x amount of slaves for x number of years and gives the conditions under which they should be held.

There's a shed load of wacky stuff in the bible, both Old and New Testaments.

If people took it literally, the world would be one ****ed up place.

So what you are saying is, you bluffed a statement and can't back it up?

Einhard

Biggins wrote: »

Good for them!
Our fcuking lot are useless at tackling these things!

LOL I just read a post of yours about how you'd orally tackle politicians. It made me laugh. And your comment about tackling made me think of the first post and laugh again! :pac:

strobe

Seaneh wrote: »

This.

There is no such thing as a good death for an animal no matter that anyone tells you, the only think we can do is improve their standards if living while they are being reared.

There might not be a 'good' death but there are different degrees of better or worse. We* don't execute death row inmates by flaying them. There is a reason for that beyond the arbitrary.

Seaneh

kraggy wrote: »

They're looking to ban Kosher (Jewish) meat production too.

They are pretty similar... They couldn't ban one and not the other.

[edit]
correction, they are identical.
[/edit]

Cavehill Red

Einhard wrote: »

I didn't look at all tbh. It's 1.44am and I don't go trawling the internet to put flesh on the bones of every thread I read in this place! But thanks for the link. If it states what you claim it states, then I might change my mind- as I said I would.

The Netherlands are also expected to be compliant with the veal directive due to be implemented in 2013. The bottom line is that the EU is selective as regards animal welfare standards, exempting barbarous practices because some religions wish to adhere to how they butchered animals millennia ago. Holland at least is attempting to be consistent by extending the EU drive towards animal welfare into these areas also. It is not right, as is the case in Britain, that a vast proportion of animals are butchered in Halal and Kosher fashion simply to protect the sensitivities of religious minorities.

Seaneh

strobe wrote: »

There might not be a 'good' death but there are different degrees of better or worse. We don't execute death row inmates by flaying them. There is a reason for that beyond the arbitrary.

Bleeding out is probably less painfull than having (a) a blast of electricity through your brain or (b) having a bolt rammed through your skull.

Einhard

Seaneh wrote: »

Bleeding out is probably less painfull than having (a) a blast of electricity through your brain or (b) having a bolt rammed through your skull.

You think so? I'd have thought that a well utilised bolt gun would have been a relatively humane way to put down an animal. Certainly better than bleeding to death through numerous wounds!

strobe

Seaneh wrote: »

Bleeding out is probably less painfull than having (a) a blast of electricity through your brain or (b) having a bolt rammed through your skull.

That's almost certainly untrue.

Seaneh

Einhard wrote: »

You think so? I'd have thought that a well utilised bolt gun would have been a relatively humane way to put down an animal. Certainly better than bleeding to death through numerous wounds!

Ever seen a cow bolted?
I have, they make a **** ton of noise for something that feels no pain.
Also, the ****ing know it's coming too, the look of panic on their faces as they are ran down the race into the pen is horrible.

Biggins

Einhard wrote: »

LOL I just read a post of yours about how you'd orally tackle politicians. It made me laugh. And your comment about tackling made me think of the first post and laugh again! :pac:

Whatever works best!

kraggy

Seaneh wrote: »

They are pretty similar... They couldn't ban one and not the other.

[edit]
correction, they are identical.
[/edit]

Yes but considering the fact that Jewish people keep going on about the holocaust to justify their actions in Israel etc, then it's a big risk to have a go a them over their diet too. The playing the victim card is inevitable.

So, I think it definitely was an animal rights proposal.

And to Southside Rosie, just because only 2 members of parliament are from the Animal Right party, that doesn't mean that the other 148 MP's don't believe in Animal rights.

starbelgrade

Those bloody Muslims are always causing trouble.

They should stop killing animals & just get their meat at the supermarket like normal people.

Seaneh

If the dutch parliment gave a shite about animal husbandry standards or animal welfare they would be banning battery chicken production, over crowding in enclosed pig and chicken farms, white veal production, fish farming and countless other far more cruel practices before they gave a crap how an animal was killed.

Cavehill Red

Seaneh wrote: »

If the dutch parliment gave a shite about animal husbandry standards or animal welfare they would be banning battery chicken production, over crowding in enclosed pig and chicken farms, white veal production, fish farming and countless other far more cruel practices before they gave a crap how an animal was killed.

You're not reading the whole thread, are you?
I've already covered this. The EU has directives on nearly all of these measures coming down the track, and the Netherlands is either already compliant or expected to be compliant before implementation.

Biggins

Seaneh wrote: »

If the dutch parliment gave a shite about animal husbandry standards or animal welfare they would be banning battery chicken production, over crowding in enclosed pig and chicken farms, white veal production, fish farming and countless other far more cruel practices before they gave a crap how an animal was killed.

I'm sure they have to start at some various points in the area of animal care - they can't get them all at first or second go, etc.

At least they are seemingly trying.
Ours are trying too - trying our patience!

charlemont

A disgusting method of killing an animal and I'm glad it is to be banned.