Dutch to ban Halal and Kosher meat production

who the fug · 07-11-2011 4:18pm

humanji wrote: »

I'm not saying you can't be scared of certain things.

Like being stuck in the poppy thread

denhaagenite · 07-11-2011 4:19pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Incidently there are Kebab shops which sell non-Halal meat (and even Pork) probably not many though.

Ya. Greek ones. Souvlaki FTW!!

ScumLord · 07-11-2011 4:23pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Presumably Muslims and Jews in the Netherland will still be able to buy halal/kosher meat imported frozen from other EU countries so the ban is going to make damn all difference as far as animal welfare is concerned ?

I don't think that's really a fair way to look at it. It would be like saying we shouldn't bother with health care in Ireland because there will be people in other countries that won't be able to take advantage of it. The Netherlands are doing what's best for it's animal citizens. they can't do much about other countries but they can at least look out for their own.

They really should back it up with a ban though, I do think it's a bit of a cop out to just push the problem into another country. I think it's the same as bringing in safer (and more expensive) working environments here and then importing the stuff from countries that don't have the same high standards as it's cheaper is just horribly dumb.

humanji · 07-11-2011 4:26pm

sensibleken wrote: »

now you see thats what i thought too. but i looked it up and apparantely its something that bears no life, animate meaning to give life.

so i can still be afraid of a brick hitting me in the head rather than gravity.

Both words have several meanings. Animating doesn't only mean to give life. It also means give motion. The object is inanimate in that it isn't alive. Animating it by throwing it isn't giving it life, it's giving it motion. So you can animate an inanimate object and have it remain inanimate.

Granted, this is way off-topic, but God help anyone who has to learn English as a secondary language.

Mike 1972 · 07-11-2011 4:26pm

denhaagenite wrote: »

Ya. Greek ones. Souvlaki FTW!!

Nope I get mine from a TurkKurdish owned establishment.

Not everyone from that part of the world is Muslim (and even those who are need not necessairly be particularly devout) you know.

BTW Kebabs were actually invented in Germany (albeit by Turkish immigrants)

ScumLord wrote: »

They really should back it up with a ban though, I do think it's a bit of a cop out to just push the problem into another country. .

As long as the production is legal in at least one EU country there are probably some practical difficulties with an outright ban Id imagine ?

sensibleken · 07-11-2011 4:27pm

falafels better anyway

denhaagenite · 07-11-2011 4:32pm

sensibleken wrote: »

falafels better anyway

Have you noticed that they sell Halal falafel in the AH? How do they kill the chickpeas?

Mike 1972 · 07-11-2011 4:32pm

Incidently what is the law in the Netherlands in relation to the non-medically necessary ritual mutuilation of male infant genitals ?

denhaagenite · 07-11-2011 4:44pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Incidently what is the law in the Netherlands in relation to the non-medically necessary ritual mutuilation of male infant genitals ?

I've just had a quick look and as far as I can tell it's allowed :eek:

ScumLord · 07-11-2011 4:44pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

As long as the production is legal in at least one EU country there are probably some practical difficulties with an outright ban Id imagine ?

The Dutch know all about blurring those lines. But I'm sure if they have a standard set by the food board to do with welfare and food production and it's of a higher standard than other European countries, those other European countries wouldn't be able to force anything on them for purely financial reasons. I'd like to think that anyway.

Dudess · 07-11-2011 4:48pm

goose2005 wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

I'd agree to a point, but some customs don't affect anyone else and people should be left to practise them.

But they affect the animals. If I decided to kill a sheep by cutting off its legs and kicking it in the head, I couldn't argue in my defence that standard slaughter methods also cause pain, because it's universally acknowledged that my method is much more painful.

I don't mean this custom, just in general.

RichieC · 07-11-2011 4:52pm

seems you can't trust any site to give you the honest lowdown on Halal.

I just read Halal slaughter is particularly bad when done on pigs :rolleyes:

Seems to me it just looks worse than the western way due to all the blood but that the sudden loss in blood pressure from a deep cut to the jugular renders the animal unconscious is a few seconds.

What I'd really like to see here is someone who actually knows wtf they're talking about to weigh in, not a bunch of potato monkeys out to black eye the Muslims and Jews.

super_furry · 07-11-2011 4:53pm

I think this is as much about animal rights and Sarkozy's hijab ban was about preventing bank robberies.

Jerri Jordan · 07-11-2011 4:55pm

slaughter is slaughter.
If people are more comfortable with what is on the end of their forks, cos it got a stun gun to the head as opposed to its throat slit then they are fooling themselves.

biko · 07-11-2011 5:02pm

humanji wrote: »

Because a religion can't harm you. It's the people who follow it that can.

No offence but that kinda sounds like "guns don't kill people, people kill people".
The question imo is "would people be killing others if they didn't have religion to blame?" Today they do blame it on religion.

On topic, I agree with anything that minimises the pain animals are subjected to when they are killed for meat.
Unfortunately cost and religious humbug gets in the way.

stevedublin · 07-11-2011 5:12pm

why the focus by the OP on the fact that Hal'al meat production being banned, when kosher meat production is being banned also?
Is it to do with the fact that this ban is being made to "get at" Muslims rather than any other reason e.g. animal welfare?

humanji · 07-11-2011 5:17pm

biko wrote: »

No offence but that kinda sounds like "guns don't kill people, people kill people".
The question imo is "would people be killing others if they didn't have religion to blame?" Today they do blame it on religion.

It was in answer to the statement "I'm not talking about Muslims here. Islam is a religion, a set of rules and beliefs. Why is it irrational to fear a religion?"

If you take the people out of the equation, then it's irrational to fear something that is meaningless and nobody pays attention to.

On topic, I agree with anything that minimises the pain animals are subjected to when they are killed for meat.
Unfortunately cost and religious humbug gets in the way.

The method posted above for Nitrogen Asphyxiation seems to be the best of both worlds. If a group of animals were put into a chamber, given a bit of food to munch on and then gassed, they'd feel nothing and you'd get several done in one go. There'd be little clean up, and you wouldn't freak out any of the other animals waiting to go into the chamber.

Granted, it has a few similarities to concentration camps, so I wouldn't be surprised if some Jewish people thought it was in bad taste.

Halal Butcher · 07-11-2011 5:21pm

RichieC wrote: »

What I'd really like to see here is someone who actually knows wtf they're talking about to weigh in, not a bunch of potato monkeys out to black eye the Muslims and Jews.

Halal slaughter is more humane way.

Experimentation by Schultz in Germany is showing this...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111104204843AAfCuY4

Siuin · 07-11-2011 5:22pm

Halal Butcher wrote: »

Halal slaughter is more humane way.

Experimentation in Germany is showing this...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111104204843AAfCuY4

Coming from a totally impartial source, of course

sensibleken · 07-11-2011 5:23pm

Halal Butcher wrote: »

Halal slaughter is more humane way.

Experimentation in Germany is showing this...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111104204843AAfCuY4

I havent read the link yet. but jesus christ how ominous do those two sentences sound

Halal Butcher · 07-11-2011 5:29pm

Siuin wrote: »

Coming from a totally impartial source, of course

I am sorry.

I cannot be sure that is peery viewed.

professore · 07-11-2011 5:31pm

My Dad killed tens of thousands of cattle himself with stun guns humane killer guns - that was his job. In later years he worked with muslims from all over north africa and the middle east doing ritual killing.

I have seen it myself many times. An awful lot depends on how skilled the person carrying out the killing is. Some of the guys used improperly sharpened knives and poor technique and it was very cruel to watch. Others would make one swipe and the animal would be dead in seconds. So it's not necessarily much more cruel than killing with a stun gun if done correctly. It LOOKS worse because of course the animal bleeds out. My Dad didn't like it very much TBH but it was either that or the dole.

Siuin · 07-11-2011 5:36pm

Halal Butcher wrote: »

I am sorry.

I cannot be sure that is peery viewed.

Peery viewed? Is that supposed to be one step away from queerly viewed, or am I missing something here?

I was referencing your username, kinda weird you registered just for this topic. You must have quite the throat slitting fetish.

MrPudding · 07-11-2011 5:42pm

Siuin wrote: »

Peery viewed? Is that supposed to be one step away from queerly viewed, or am I missing something here?

I was referencing your username, kinda weird you registered just for this topic. You must have quite the throat slitting fetish.

Peer reviewed?

MrP

ScumLord · 07-11-2011 5:42pm

Jerri Jordan wrote: »

slaughter is slaughter.
If people are more comfortable with what is on the end of their forks, cos it got a stun gun to the head as opposed to its throat slit then they are fooling themselves.

By that logic we should be allowed to water board animals to death. It's all the same thing.

Siuin · 07-11-2011 5:52pm

MrPudding wrote: »

Peer reviewed?

MrP

it's yahoo answers
what does he expect?!

Halal Butcher · 07-11-2011 6:06pm

Siuin wrote: »

it's yahoo answers
what does he expect?!

It appears to have been peer reviewed after all (thank you Mr.P) , appearing in Deutsche Tieraerztliche Wochenschrift (German veterinary weekly) volume 85 (1978), pages 62-66, no less.

It's the only study I can find on the subject, as opposed to the opinions of 'scientists' quoted in the many articles calling for an end to Halal slaughter.

ItsAWindUp · 07-11-2011 6:52pm

F ucking disgusting thing to do to any creature. That said, seeing as they're not banning factory farms it seems kind of pointless.

Eric Cartman · 07-11-2011 6:58pm

woodoo wrote: »

Looks like the dutch are going back to the 'if you come to my house you live by my rules' stance. Fair play to them. I hope the rest of Europe follows suit.

i would agree 99% of the time, but halal meat isnt something i have a problem with , its humane as far as im concerned and shouldnt be banned, dont give a f*ck about that other one though

ItsAWindUp · 07-11-2011 6:59pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

i would agree 99% of the time, but halal meat isnt something i have a problem with , its humane as far as im concerned and shouldnt be banned, dont give a f*ck about that other one though

What is humane about cutting an animals throat and letting it bleed to death?

Eric Cartman · 07-11-2011 7:08pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

What is humane about cutting an animals throat and letting it bleed to death?

if done correctly the animal dies almost instantly and its cleaner than leaving the blood in the animal when cutting it apart

ItsAWindUp · 07-11-2011 7:14pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if done correctly the animal dies almost instantly and its cleaner than leaving the blood in the animal when cutting it apart

They often live for two minutes after the throat has been cut.

ScumLord · 07-11-2011 7:17pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

What is humane about cutting an animals throat and letting it bleed to death?

The whole cutting part is the humane bit. The other options involves running them to death or eating them alive.

ItsAWindUp · 07-11-2011 7:18pm

ScumLord wrote: »

The whole cutting part is the humane bit. The other options involves running them to death or eating them alive.

There is nothing humane about cutting an animal's throat and leaving it bleed to death. I couldn't give a toss what a persons religious beliefs are tbh, that's not on.

The Internet Explorer · 07-11-2011 7:19pm

Today I have learned that Halal meat production is, in my opinion, quite humane. This also reenforces my opinion that the Kebab is a truly beautiful thing.

Eric Cartman · 07-11-2011 7:20pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

They often live for two minutes after the throat has been cut.

even if it was true which im still unsure about, it still doesnt bother me enough to condemn the method , people miss the brain with bolt guns all the time so i would consider it on par with bolt gun killing and there isnt currently a better method

ItsAWindUp · 07-11-2011 7:21pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

even if it was true which im still unsure about, it still doesnt bother me enough to condemn the method , people miss the brain with bolt guns all the time so i would consider it on par with bolt gun killing and there isnt currently a better method

The better method would be not doing it at all;)

ScumLord · 07-11-2011 7:22pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

There is nothing humane about cutting an animal's throat and leaving it bleed to death. I couldn't give a toss what a persons religious beliefs are tbh, that's not on.

It's a relatively quick death by other animals standards. Humane killings end the animals life as fast as possible to cause as little suffering as possible, it's a simple gesture that is unique to humans. Humane killing was never intended to be a nice way to die just the nicest way for something horrible to happen.

ItsAWindUp · 07-11-2011 7:24pm

ScumLord wrote: »

It's a relatively quick death by other animals standards. Humane killings end the animals life as fast as possible to cause as little suffering as possible, it's a simple gesture that is unique to humans. Humane killing was never intended to be a nice way to die just the nicest way for something horrible to happen.

No it isn't!

Solnskaya · 07-11-2011 7:25pm

I was up until a few years ago, a beef farmer and when my cattle went for slaughter there was an option of having them killed by stunning or Halal. Halal meant more money. I always refused and had them killed conventionaly. Halal is a pure sh1te way to kill a living creature and really, bottom line, raising animals for slaughter is a pure sh1te way to make your living. I decided to get out and do somthing that didn't involve killing things I spent ages raising. That probably makes me sound a big softie, but i'm not, I just decided there were better, less crap ways to make a living than benefiting from raising things just to profit from killing them. Plenty will not agree with this view, but they can bite my big soft hole.:)Oh yeah, and the jundies are a bunch of backward hateful feckers anyway, so whatever p1sses them off is ok by me. If they had their way, we would all be on our knees with our women wrapped up in shawls, so those westerners who support them are dopes who have no idea what they really think of us.:)

ItsAWindUp · 07-11-2011 7:26pm

Solnskaya wrote: »

I was up until a few years ago, a beef farmer and when my cattle went for slaughter there was an option of having them killed by stunning or Halal. Halal meant more money. I always refused and had them killed conventionaly. Halal is a pure sh1te way to kill a living creature and really, bottom line, raising animals for slaughter is a pure sh1te way to make your living. I decided to get out and do somthing that didn't involve killing things I spent ages raising. That probably makes me sound a big softie, but i'm not, I just decided there were better, less crap ways to make a living than benefiting from raising things just to profit from killing them. Plenty will not agree with this view, but they can bite my big soft hole.:)Oh yeah, and the jundies are a bunch of backward hateful feckers anyway, so whatever p1sses them off is ok by me. If they had their way, we would all be on our knees with our women wrapped up in shawls, so those westerners who support them are dopes who have no idea what they really think of us.:)

Oh you were doing so well until this!

ScumLord · 07-11-2011 7:27pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

No it isn't!

Really what other predator kills quicker and causes less suffering to their prey than us?

Eric Cartman · 07-11-2011 7:28pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

The better method would be not doing it at all;)

ohh...your one of those.....

ItsAWindUp · 07-11-2011 7:28pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Really what other predator kills quicker and causes less suffering to their prey than us?

Not comparing like with like, they have to kill to survive we don't.

ItsAWindUp · 07-11-2011 7:28pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ohh...your one of those.....

Sorry?

Eric Cartman · 07-11-2011 7:29pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Sorry?

i assume your a vegetarian/vegan , sorry but a meal without meat just isnt a meal really ,

ItsAWindUp · 07-11-2011 7:30pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

i assume your a vegetarian/vegan , sorry but a meal without meat just isnt a meal really ,

Yes I'm vegetarian. You should give it a go you never know you might just like it:)

ScumLord · 07-11-2011 7:31pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Not comparing like with like, they have to kill to survive we don't.

As a species we have to kill to survive. You have the luxury of choice. We are just as much a slave to food as every other animal on this planet you just lucky enough to be born in a place that abundant with food.

ItsAWindUp · 07-11-2011 7:32pm

ScumLord wrote: »

As a species we have to kill to survive. You have the luxury of choice. We are just as much a slave to food as every other animal on this planet you just lucky enough to be born in a place that abundant with food.

Yes, we do have a choice, so why choose to kill?

ScumLord · 07-11-2011 7:39pm

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Yes, we do have a choice, so why choose to kill?

We all don't have a choice. You have the luxury of choice, you can't expect the world, the businesses, economies and people invested in the animal industry to just shrug their shoulders and give up everything they do just because some people that for the most part come from that 1% which means they have the disposable income to pay for their lifestyle choice.

It's as likely to happen as expecting dogs to stop eating meat. You can't just will nature to change it's ways.

Dutch to ban Halal and Kosher meat production

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