How big is too big?

Aurther Hugh · 31-03-2005 9:46am

Jekell wrote:

mmm, have to disagree with you there though...
I am 5'1, 8 stone and a size 8
If I was 5'6 and 7 stone I would be a skeleton

If you read the post correctly I think you'll find that what you're saying is agreeing with what I said.

Matthewthebig · 31-03-2005 2:43pm

According to that if you are any less than 9 stone at 5'6" then you are underweight 9stones brings you exactly to a BMI of 20 so i would expect the gierl to be at least 9 stone if not more4 like 10

Piste · 03-04-2005 1:30am

Aurther Hugh wrote:

a lot of girls are bigger than they should be!

Is what they *should* be the same as what you'd like them to be? Or is it something completely objective?

Aurther Hugh wrote:

And I'm not sure that it differs from the "garbled illusion" that all girls should be curvy or bosomy.

Most girls are Naturally Curvy and Bosomy.....curves are there because of a)Wide hips for childbearing and b)Fat that settles on said hips for insulation. There are planty of women out there who are curvy w/o being fat.

Wibbs · 03-04-2005 10:20am

Feminine curves are one thing and while there are plenty of women out there who are curvy without being fat, there are an increasing amount of women(and men) that are just plain fat. Lack of exercise and bad diet are 90% to blame.

There was a good article in new scientist a few months back that detailed the changing body shape of humanity in the last 50yrs. Basically much less women now have the curvy hourglass figure of the past. Nowadays they're more likely to be apple shaped and collect excess fat around the belly. This is more unhealthy for the heart and more mirrors the male pot belly(which is just as unattractive IMO). If it was just in the genes we wouldn't be seeing changes this big.

I agree that relying on clothes sizes is silly. I know some women at size 14/16 that look more "sexy" than others who are size 10. I seem to remember that there's a hip/waist ratio of .7 (I think) that makes a woman more sexually atractive regardless of her overall weight. Kate moss and marilyn monroe had the same ratio and they were very different weights.

For me I find a smaller waist and wider hip a lot more appealing than either a skinny or fat woman with a waist and hip the same size. Bring back waists.

Cutie18Ireland · 04-04-2005 8:36pm

ive read most of the posts here and to be honest i find it quite disturbing the mentions of only a size 10!?!?! when is the world going to stop all this crap??? have u ever actually seen how attitudes are practically killing ppl these days!?! and as for the question "how fat is fat?" its personal taste really but im 5"8 and a size 18/20 and ive never had any complaints!! and to all those girls over a size 10!?! be proud that ur not trying to be just another supermodel!!! who disappears in behind all the rest!! be yourself and stand out!!!

Keyzer · 04-04-2005 8:41pm

Your a curious character KittenKiller, what with your poll on how many people youve slept with..
Anywho, the only clearcut way of determining if someone is fat, or for arguments sake obese, is to do a bmi test on the person....
In terms of personal taste, well that boils down to the person doesn't it..
If you dig fat chicks/dudes then fair play to you, different horses etc.
I myself like a nice bit of meat, something to hold onto as they say, but not too much, on the other foot stick insects dont do it for me...
curves rock, flab hanging out over jeans is disgusting...

Sangre · 04-04-2005 11:43pm

Matthewthebig wrote:

tbh the BMI index is pretty messed up it was created by insurance companies and takes no account of muscle. It is rough idea but i wouldn't take it as gospel some of the rugby players in my school are technically obese according to that. so yeah

Fat people always say this.

Wibbs · 05-04-2005 10:25am

It is down to personal taste and I've found most men find overly skinny women a turn off. It's the same when it comes to overly fat women too though.

For me anything over 14/16 (depending on height) would be a bit too much of a good thing, especially the "flab hanging over jeans" scenario described by Keyzer. A belly on a woman is nice, a gut isn't.

If you can't see your knees without leaning forward, it's time for a rethink on the amount and quality of food you're eating. I'm sorry, but when you see what was once called middle aged spread on people in their early 20's you have to wonder. An average curvy body looks healthy. An overly skinny or fat one doesn't.

Early onset heart disease, stroke, type 2 diabetes and arthritus. These are the things that make that kind of fat unattractive to me.

simu · 05-04-2005 4:39pm

Sangre wrote:

Fat people always say this.

Thin people too. According to the BMI, I'm underweight yet I eat what I want and function perfectly. To get into the BMI's "normal" range, I'd have to stuff myself with junk constantly and never move - hardly healthy.

GuanYin · 05-04-2005 4:45pm

simu wrote:

Thin people too. According to the BMI, I'm underweight yet I eat what I want and function perfectly. To get into the BMI's "normal" range, I'd have to stuff myself with junk constantly and never move - hardly healthy.

The BMI you calculate yourself isn't true BMI.

In order to calculate your true BMI a variety of things need to be measured. Physically for instance, you'd need to measure pelvic width, shoulder width and in cases of women, cup size.

Evil Phil · 05-04-2005 5:00pm

I don't care about sizes, fit does not equal thin. I like a firm bod on a woman but maybe that's just me.

simu · 05-04-2005 5:01pm

psi wrote:

The BMI you calculate yourself isn't true BMI.

In order to calculate your true BMI a variety of things need to be measured. Physically for instance, you'd need to measure pelvic width, shoulder width and in cases of women, cup size.

Fair enough then - I've never had such a thing measured by a pro because I don't appear to be unhealthy.

And indeed, I believe the answer to this thread lies there - you're too big/small if your health is being damaged by being too fat/thin. As for attractiveness of different sizes, it's totally subjective so not worth getting into arguments about.

GuanYin · 05-04-2005 5:08pm

simu wrote:

Fair enough then - I've never had such a thing measured by a pro because I don't appear to be unhealthy.

And indeed, I believe the answer to this thread lies there - you're too big/small if your health is being damaged by being too fat/thin. As for attractiveness of different sizes, it's totally subjective so not worth getting into arguments about.

Its not that clear cut. being clinically over or underweight can have implications for your health further down the line without you actually being unhealthy now.

rainbow kirby · 05-04-2005 5:37pm

Evil Phil wrote:

fit does not equal thin.

Amen.
I'm a size 14 at the moment, but I'm as fit as I've been in years (I'm about to go for TKD black belt). I'm never going to be a size 10, no matter how hard I try.

Wibbs · 05-04-2005 6:21pm

psi wrote:

Its not that clear cut. being clinically over or underweight can have implications for your health further down the line without you actually being unhealthy now.

Regardless of opinion on the merits of fat v thin, being underweight(within reason) is still better than being overweight. Less stress on the heart and skeletal system for a start.

In fact calorie restriction(with proper nutrition) is at the moment one of the few scientifically backed method of increased longevity.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/diet.fitness/09/12/120.year.diet.wmd/

The General · 05-04-2005 6:48pm

beyonce or avril lavigne????????????

Id pick beyonce evertime!

Wibbs · 05-04-2005 6:51pm

Agreed and good example too. Though I would suspect that in the flesh Beyonce would be a very slim woman. Lovely eyes too. Damn, drool on the keyboard. Again........

banquo · 06-04-2005 1:01pm

I like 'em skinny.

and avril lavigne.

kittenkiller · 06-04-2005 1:04pm

banquo wrote:

I like 'em skinny.

and avril lavigne.

How skinny is skinny for you?

Zulu · 06-04-2005 1:06pm

If it rolls - it's too fat.
ie: you shouldn't be hanging over the top of your pants.

kittenkiller · 06-04-2005 1:10pm

but then you could just buy bigger pants!

that doesn't really hold as a measuring method!

Zulu · 06-04-2005 1:16pm

true - but if you're going up sizes after you've finished puberty, you know it's not your bones growing.

(sorry - I should make it clear that I'm fairly unforgiving about fatness. Some guys like it, it's one of my biggest turn offs though. That being said - I prefer a woman with a shape, too thin is equally unattractive)

kittenkiller · 06-04-2005 1:50pm

Zulu wrote:

(sorry - I should make it clear that I'm fairly unforgiving about fatness. Some guys like it, it's one of my biggest turn offs though.

Not being seen as attractive to someone ISN'T something people should be "forgiven" for!

I don't expect an apology from some random guy on the street just cuz i would go to bed with him based on his appearance!!!!

Zulu · 06-04-2005 2:30pm

kittenkiller wrote:

Not being seen as attractive to someone ISN'T something people should be "forgiven" for!

I don't expect an apology from some random guy on the street just cuz i would go to bed with him based on his appearance!!!!

Calm down. Jeez. Jump down my troat anyways... :rolleyes:
I don't expect an apology from anybody. The word "forgiving" can be used in different ways. (see below)

for·giv·ing ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fr-gvng, fôr-)
adj.
Inclined or able to forgive.
Providing a margin for error or shortcomings.

When I say I am "unforgiving" about fatness, I mean that I wouldn't really see a difference between 2 chins and 5 chins; I mean, that to me, fat is fat is fat.

*Angel* · 06-04-2005 4:36pm

Wez wrote:

I think too skinny is ugly on a girl. I'm no chicken myself (6 foot and 14 stone) although I'm planning a very active summer. I hate seeing girls that haven't got anything see wobble. I know it sounds weird, but my mates agree. If a girl is chubby (to an extent) it's much nicer than skinny imo. I'm gonna slim down/tone up this summer, but I don't wanna go too skinny as I don't think it's good looking. I'm aiming for maybe 12-13 stone (crosses fingers)

I disagree completely, I'm a girl and I think that skinny girls do generally look better. That's not to say that bigger girls don't look good, if a person is confident with her shape then that will improve the way she looks and carries herself. I like the idea of wearing whatever I want, my opinion is that short skirts only look good on thinner girls and I'm glad that I'm able to wear them.

4Xcut · 08-04-2005 12:34pm

Sangre wrote:

Fat people always say this.

I happen to know matt and can tell you that where as he has a bit of a belly (as i do) but neither of us are fat.

What poor argumentitive(sp?) skill. IS there any chance that you are twelve(And a stupid 12 year old at that)

Sangre · 08-04-2005 2:23pm

No I actually am 11. Yet at this tender young age I can hurt your feelings, isn't that cute.

I suspect you actually are a fat person in denial, they're always making excuses about weight.

'According to my BMI I'm overweight but pfffft, that doesn't include all my muscle and big penis, sure I must be really muscley to carry all this fat around'

grimloch · 08-04-2005 8:21pm

Sangre wrote:

No I actually am 11. Yet at this tender young age I can hurt your feelings, isn't that cute.

I suspect you actually are a fat person in denial, they're always making excuses about weight.

'According to my BMI I'm overweight but pfffft, that doesn't include all my muscle and big penis, sure I must be really muscley to carry all this fat around'

i know 4xcut personally and i can absolutely confirm he is not fat, so much for your little theory.

Johnson · 08-04-2005 8:24pm

*Angel* wrote:

my opinion is that short skirts only look good on thinner girls and I'm glad that I'm able to wear them.

Not so thin that they have chicken legs, hopefully. It's almost as horrible a sight as an overweight girl with huge legs in a miniskirt.

iguana · 09-04-2005 5:57pm

Zulu wrote:

true - but if you're going up sizes after you've finished puberty, you know it's not your bones growing.

A woman's body will continue to change shape and size all her life. It is preparing to carry a child and give birth. Then it does get pregnant and give birth, usually more than once. Then it shuts down these facilities and the body's hormone change usually mean more changes to the body. Body changes after puberty doesn't automatically = getting fat.

At 24 my breasts went from 32E to 32F, that was two years ago and it may not be the last change they make. I think my hips may still be widening. I know I'm not getting fat as I have maintained a 28 inch waist, a size 10, for my whole adult life. I also have pretty good muscle tone on my arms, stomach, legs and thighs. I suspect I am above the bmi average for my height(5"1') however, but I'm not really interested. I look and feel good, I don't care about a generalising index that indicates Russel Crowe and George Clooney as obese.

I don't think being over-weight is attractive. There are some who have a preference for it, but there are also those out there who have a sexual attraction to feet or elbows. It's a fetish. I also don't think that most people are hugely attracted to the incredibly skinny, my preference is for broad, reasonably muscular shoulders and chest, a well defined bum and firm thighs. Probably a genetic pre-programming that most of us share as we are all sub-consciously on the look out for a healthy mate to breed with, but I would choose skinny over fat any day.

I don't think anyone is happy to be fat, but I don't think that the whole movement to celebrate fat is a good thing. Just like I won't celebrate somebody's destructive alcohol or drug abuse. It is a self-inflicted condition which impairs their life and shortens their lifespan. It isn't an easy thing to change but it is possible, support and help are probably the most useful things any of us can offer to the overweight. Certainly better than insults or right-on justification.

I do wonder though why it is acceptable for non-smokers to complain publically about the dangers of smoking and how socially inacceptable it is. Yet it isn't ok to critisise the over-weight on the dangers of being so fat and the ways in which it can aversely effect those around them?

Rozie · 10-04-2005 9:20pm

I absolutely love big girls, but I prefer my guys a little thinner. I think guys can only look like thin girls, but not big girls XD I like effeminite males.

Big girls are great if they carry the weight well. Some girls look so much better like that. It pains when whe na really hot plump girl wants to loose weight when she doesn't need to. It hurts her to do so but she's convinced she must to suceed in life. It's sickening.

Some people look good thin, some people look good wide.

I think weight is a nice variable just lke shape of face or colour of skin.

If you really want to, stuff yourself and become huge, though I'd recommend against going overboard with that one :P

We need more big girls that are also hot... goth girls often pull it off quite well

I myself am a little plump. I want to loose a bit of weight, but only a stone or so, if I don't I don't, though I must admit the diet bashers have gotten to my self confidence a little(Well, my Dad has). After that I'm fine with myself.

As for how fat is too fat, I don't know. I'd say around 280 pounds but it depends on height and where it goes to, and I've seen some massively fat women of 450 pounds who were still somewhat attractive because they wore themselves well.

But generally, when things start to sag too much, and you start getting fat person folds all over, you've overdone it a bit.

I will admit that I do have a fetish for wide hips and pudgy bellies, but I can find thin girls hot too (as long as they still have some meat on them, anorexic is ick). I think it's very arrogant to call it just a fetish and that nobody really finds larger girls attractive. That's exactly what's bringing big people down and making them feel like ****.

Why exactly can't big people be attractive? Because they're too fat? There isn't any reason why big people should be automatically ugly. I think anti-fat opinions are generally very bigoted and generally come from people who are either thin or lack self confidence, or both.

Zulu · 11-04-2005 10:11am

Rozie wrote:

I think it's very arrogant to call it just a fetish and that nobody really finds larger girls attractive.

Telling the truth may hurt some people - but it's not arrogant.

Why exactly can't big people be attractive?

Why can't excessively hairy women be attractive?
They can be - to a select few.

Because they're too fat?

Exactly

There isn't any reason why big people should be automatically ugly.

...and there isn't any reason why bearded ladies should be automatically ugly - but they are.

I think anti-fat opinions are generally very bigoted and generally come from people who are either thin or lack self confidence, or both.

I think denial isn't very helpful. Explain how "anti-fat opinions" are either bigoted or display a lack of confidence. People are being honest here - perhaps this is hitting a raw nerve for you, my suggestion would be: if you're going to let this get to you, or take it personally - don't read the thread.

Sangre · 11-04-2005 11:24am

Rozie wrote:

As for how fat is too fat, I don't know. I'd say around 280 pounds but it depends on height and where it goes to, and I've seen some massively fat women of 450 pounds who were still somewhat attractive because they wore themselves well.

Oh dear god no!

As a rule a girl better not weight more than me.

*Page* · 11-04-2005 11:38am

Fat?

my 2 female friends are sizes 8 at 5'4" and 5'2" 10 my friends want bodies like mine and i want ones like theirs.

Now i'm not thin but i'm fit i'm flexible and i can run with out being out of breath!
i'm only 5 foot and i'm a size 14! does this make me too fat?

the point is that no body is perfect everyone wants to be a little bit thinner/bigger have bigger/smaller boobs/bum/legs/arms/face have starighter/curlier natural hair! the list goes on.

Debating over whats Fat or not is silly! its all personal perference!

It's time people stoped looking at how fat/thin other people are and start seeing is this person happy/sad nice/ mean care/horrible! you can get fat over a few days! you can also get thin too but you will always be who you are!

GuanYin · 11-04-2005 12:09pm

I meant to post this up before.

Its basically a rough way of adjusting BMI for build bust size. Remember, BMI is not very accurate because it doesn't differentiate muscle from fat. The only real way to assess your body composition is with medical professionals.

I'm posting this for fun and maybe to cheer up people who were disappointed with the BMI they calculated before.

BMI = weight in Kg /(height in metres squared)

For women subtract .36Kg for every cup size over A from your weight in Kg

The BMI index table is then adjusted as follows:
very slim/petite build +1.9 to your calculated BMI
slim build +1.1 to your calculated BMI
Athletic/muscular build -1.3 from calculated BMI
Stocky/broad build - 1.6 from calculated BMI
Heavy Build - 3 from calculated BMI

BMI Index:
Below 18.5 Underweight
18.5 – 24.9 Normal
25.0 – 29.9 Overweight
30.0 and Above Obese

iguana · 11-04-2005 4:42pm

*Page* wrote:

the point is that no body is perfect everyone wants to be a little bit thinner/bigger have bigger/smaller boobs/bum/legs/arms/face have starighter/curlier natural hair! the list goes on.

While I am aware that I am by no means perfect, I have no real desire to change much, I had a large purple facial birthmark reduced when I was a teenager, partly because it threatened my eyesight in one eye. And I sometimes wish I hadn't broken my nose, but that is mostly because of the recurring sinus problems I have since it broke.

I don't think that everyone feels unhappy with some part of them, I think that is a myth. I don't feel that way, nor does my mother. I've not asked them, but I have some friends in mind that I doubt give it a lot of thought either. If I see some one pretty in a way that I am not, for example some one with long legs, dark skin or blonde hair I don't envy them. I just think they are pretty, it doesn't make me wish I wasn't short, pale skinned and dark haired. It doesn't make me question my confidence in myself or make me a little unhappy in myself.

I am me, I look like me, that is all I want to look like.

Rozie wrote:

I will admit that I do have a fetish for wide hips and pudgy bellies, but I can find thin girls hot too (as long as they still have some meat on them, anorexic is ick). I think it's very arrogant to call it just a fetish and that nobody really finds larger girls attractive.

You just called it a fetish in the sentence before you said it was arrogant to call it a fetish!

Rozie · 11-04-2005 8:16pm

Zulu wrote:

Telling the truth may hurt some people - but it's not arrogant.

Why can't excessively hairy women be attractive?
They can be - to a select few.

Exactly

...and there isn't any reason why bearded ladies should be automatically ugly - but they are.

That's a ****ing ridiculous thing to say. You can't compare the two. Having hair is a very masculine thing to have, which is why it isn't attractive. Being slightly large isn't, in fact, it's very womanly.

That's your precise explanation. Now, offer one for fat people, please.

Look at Marylin Monroe, or going back, most godesses - Aphrodite and even more so Gaia were depicted as being rather shapely, some even large.
What ever happened to the large mistress figure?

Why the change? Why are shapely women no longer attractive? Why is having a

It's not "the truth" - it's your personal opinion, dear

Mine isn't so much of a personal opinion as a little push for global acceptance.

I think denial isn't very helpful. Explain how "anti-fat opinions" are either bigoted or display a lack of confidence. People are being honest here - perhaps this is hitting a raw nerve for you, my suggestion would be: if you're going to let this get to you, or take it personally - don't read the thread.

How is it denial? Denying that they're big? WHAT are they denying? Should they just accept they're ugly and need to loose weight?

They sap confidence by making fat people out to be ugly. How can that not damage as shape

And while I quite like larger women, it's not just because of my personal like that I think my opinion is valid. It's because well, it's ****ing cruel on people that just can't loose weight, or people that don't want to.

And should I not post in the thread if it's personal? Exactly what a thread like this needs is people talking from real personal experience not just "I Like Anorexic girls because they're thin".

Sangre · 11-04-2005 8:28pm

Rozie wrote:

That's a ****ing ridiculous thing to say. You can't compare the two. Having hair is a very masculine thing to have, which is why it isn't attractive. Being slightly large isn't, in fact, it's very womanly.

He never said slightly large, stop exaggerating. What about women with hairy legs, armpits and lips. Women who go completely unshaved? What is your opinion of this natural 'beautiful' state of womanhood? Do you find it just as appealing?

Rozie wrote:

Look at Marylin Monroe, or going back, most godesses - Aphrodite and even more so Gaia were depicted as being rather shapely, some even large.
What ever happened to the large mistress figure?

Why the change? Why are shapely women no longer attractive?

Marilyn Monroe or Aphrodite were fat or even slightly large, they were curvy. Stop trying to manipulate words with different meanings to convince people of your point.

Who said shapely women are no longer attractive?
No one, in fact the trend on this thread has been quite the opposite.

Rozie wrote:

It's not "the truth" - it's your personal opinion, dear

Mine isn't so much of a personal opinion as a little push for global acceptance.

It is the truth, read the sentence. It is the truth of his opinion on fat women.
And try not to be a patronising moron by saying dear.

Why are you trying to push your personal opinion on the world. Why do you care what others find beautiful?

Rozie wrote:

How is it denial? Denying that they're big? WHAT are they denying? Should they just accept they're ugly and need to loose weight?

They are denying being fat is an unhealthy state and considered unattractive by most.
Yes they should.

Rozie wrote:

And while I quite like larger women, it's not just because of my personal like that I think my opinion is valid. It's because well, it's ****ing cruel on people that just can't loose weight, or people that don't want to.

Wow you've an personal opinion, get over yourself. Everybody does.
Its not cruel, its people saying what like. If you don't want to lose weight you have to accept some people won't find you attractive.

And nobody 'can't' lose weight, only the weak-willed.

Rozie wrote:

And should I not post in the thread if it's personal? Exactly what a thread like this needs is people talking from real personal experience not just "I Like Anorexic girls because they're thin".

Where are you spouting this nonsense from?

Rozie · 11-04-2005 10:49pm

Sangre wrote:

He never said slightly large, stop exaggerating. What about women with hairy legs, armpits and lips. Women who go completely unshaved? What is your opinion of this natural 'beautiful' state of womanhood? Do you find it just as appealing?

What I consider "slightly large", he'd consider ****ing huge. I consider "slightly large" to be 16+

Marilyn Monroe or Aphrodite were fat or even slightly large, they were curvy. Stop trying to manipulate words with different meanings to convince people of your point.

Who said shapely women are no longer attractive?
No one, in fact the trend on this thread has been quite the opposite.

Err, Size 10 doesn't tend to be shapely.

It is the truth, read the sentence. It is the truth of his opinion on fat women.
And try not to be a patronising moron by saying dear.

Why are you trying to push your personal opinion on the world. Why do you care what others find beautiful?

I care how other people feel about themselves. And this bull**** is exactly what makes eating disorders all the more painful, anorexic and overeating.

They are denying being fat is an unhealthy state and considered unattractive by most.
Yes they should.

Bull****. You are a common male so you do not find it attractive. You lack the capacity to see anything beautiful which does not fit a certain mould.

I can find a fat girl just as attractive as a thin girl. You, cannot, because you are closed minded, or just do not like larger women. The way you put across your point leads me to believe you've set up camp on the closed minded end of the spectrum.
As for guys, I personally much prefer them thin because women have much more intersting places to put fat, but I don't think they HAVE to loose weight, to be with me or in general, I think they should be all sizes just to blow up the whole "It's just a fetish" point.

I'm not arguing that girls should be bigger because I like them that way, I'm arguing that there's no dire need for them to loose weight unless it's essential to their health(which it ISN'T, diseases among fat people are much rarer than diet pushers would have you believe).

It's opinions like yours that make fat people depressed in the first place. "Most people think they're unattractive, so I think they are too". Do you not see yourself working with the flock?

Wow you've an personal opinion, get over yourself. Everybody does.
Its not cruel, its people saying what like. If you don't want to lose weight you have to accept some people won't find you attractive.

And nobody 'can't' lose weight, only the weak-willed.

You're not saying you prefer thinner girls, you're saying that fat girls are ugly and undesirable, and absolutely have to loose weight because you say so.

I'm saying that people should be whatever weight they're truly happy at.

Oh, and THAT was rich. What about eating disorders? What about severe depression? *YOU* have not lived in a world where *YOU* have had to deal with being overweight, and not being able to use it. No doubt you put on a few pounds and lost them after some excerising effort, that's nowhere near the same thing. I suffer from major self image issues and I don't need this crap just because I weigh a little more.
It's easy to look down on others as "weak willed" when you haven't been through what they've been through. Usually, there's a reason for someone being "weak willed" that's beyond their control.

But they lack determination, so you don't have to care about them. They're weak. Leave behind the weak of the pack. Even most animals have evolved beyond that.

I don't need to be told I'm ugly because I'm large. I can be. I'm not entirely unfit, and I'm surprisingly agile for my weight. Damn, now you're making me feel fat when I'm only pudgy. This is exactly what happens.

I still have a decent figure and I can be attractive. I've seen girls larger than me who are even more attractive. They are PRETTY. I don't see how being large makes them ugly, unless they are hideously/unmanagably so, and there's even some who like that.

I found this wonderful piece while searching for relevant material - http://www.moonspheres.com/moonbubbles/

Laura Judd wrote:

A man spoke to me online the other night and sort of gave me a lecture about weight. He was talking from his own perspective and basically said that the woman who carried more weight was of less value than the woman who was thin. In saying this, he implied that my own value was lessened by my weight as if that element alone was enough to judge me by.

He continued to say that he was envied for his wife because she had such a desirable figure and that she "took care of herself" so well. That she wasn't lazy or unhealthy.

I lay awake last night and pondered this as at the time I was too blown away to even respond with anything intelligent.

I thought long and hard about my self-worth and my value to others and how when it came to people who were truly important in my life, my weight has never really been an issue.

Now I wish I could have that man's ear so I could tell him what I should have said last night.

I would say:

I have value. I am, in fact priceless.

Aside from the fact that I have spent years broadening my skills and talents in playing piano, guitar, percussion and bass, singing, drawing, painting, writing fiction, prose, and poetry - Aside from the fact that I am an extraordinarily intelligent and articulate woman, talented photographer, make-up artist, hairdresser, 9-ball player, interior decorator, jewelry craftsman, business owner, and basketball player - Not even counting the fact that I am an accomplished gourmet cook, have a broad and eclectic knowledge and appreciation for art & music and that I can make 50.00 last for 2 weeks - above ALL of these things, I love without reservation and am loved a thousand fold in return. I kiss away the pain and hurt of my children and with my voice, my hands, and my love, I can soothe away the stresses of my husband's day. I can make my friends and family laugh in a heartbeat and I can do this even in their darkest hours. I make sure that both my ear and my shoulder are there for those I love at all times - even when I am not at my best. I am honest and forthright in my dealings with people and I value things like integrity, respect, and honor. I give whatever I don't need to those who are in need. I put the lives and love of my children and my man before my own and I do all of this because of who I am - not the package that carries my psyche or my spirit.

You say that because I am "fat" I am not beautiful. I tell you to speak with my husband, my sons, my mother & father, my family, and my friends. Ask them if I am beautiful.

You say that your wife has more value because she "takes care of herself." I take care of myself. I take pride in the way I carry and present myself to others even if it doesn't match up to what others find beautiful. I take care of myself by being all of those things I stated above.

You say she has more value because the shell that is the vessel for her spirit fits the media's criteria for what is considered attractive. Sex is only one thing. I am an infinite number of things - some of these things are flaws, some of them assets. Some of these give me value but all of them make me unique.

You devalue me because of what you see as one flaw without even stopping to think for a moment that there just might be more to me than your narrow-minded, stereotypical vision of a lazy, unhealthy, fat slob who doesn't take care of herself.

I am far from perfect, but I am more than flesh. I am so many things to so many people and they love me for each and every facet of who I am - both good and bad.

Maybe some day someone will look at you the same way you looked at me and you'll see what I mean. Until then, I wish you a broader mind, a kinder tongue, and clearer more compassionate vision.

I think that woman is beautiful. A little too foldy and perhaps a little too large for my liking, but in general, still beautiful. She has a very heartfelt piece on "i.html", but I wouldn't recommend fat haters to look at it without wanting to give a pre-programmed hurl.

Confidence is a very important thing.

NinjaBart · 12-04-2005 12:39am

says you

GuanYin · 12-04-2005 12:44am

Sangre wrote:

And nobody 'can't' lose weight, only the weak-willed.

Thats true in every respect except the one based on scientific fact.

Wibbs · 12-04-2005 5:50pm

Posted by psi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangre
And nobody 'can't' lose weight, only the weak-willed.

Thats true in every respect except the one based on scientific fact.

Well science would suggest that if I get 10 overweight people in a room and give them smaller portions of food they will lose weight. They may not all end up the same size but they will lose weight. Basically you do not get clinically obese by eating lettuce(endecrine/mental disorders aside). How many obese people do you see in times of famine? If it's not down to food intake why are we getting fatter in the west?

Posted by Rozie

Err, Size 10 doesn't tend to be shapely

I would disagree. My girlfriend is a size 10 and 5 ft 6 and I would consider her shapely. She has a waist that's smaller than her hips for a start. I know many more size tens and only one isn't "shapely". If you look at how men would describe a woman with their hands, they make an hour glass figure in the air. They do not make the shape of a beach ball.

Bull****. You are a common male so you do not find it attractive. You lack the capacity to see anything beautiful which does not fit a certain mould.

Well it was "common" males who created those images of aphrodite, gaia and marlyn monroe et al that you find so inspiring.

diseases among fat people are much rarer than diet pushers would have you believe.

That must be why things like sleep apnea, high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes are reaching epidemic proportions then.

As for guys, I personally much prefer them thin because women have much more intersting places to put fat, but I don't think they HAVE to loose weight

So you prefer thin men. Fair enough. Well I prefer thin women. I dont think anyone has to lose weight to be with me either. I just personally find it sexually unattractive and I would be dishonest if I said it didn't make a difference.

*Page* · 12-04-2005 6:35pm

Ah something to think of!!

when you describe a 10 or a 12 guys what is it?

dress size..
trousers size
hippster size
english size
top size?

i say i'm a 14 but thats my hips and boobs my waist(trouser size) is a 10-2..

to a girl a dress size 10 is pretty straight and not so curvy..

its a beach ball(as mentioned above) when waist is either simulr or larger than either boobs or hips.

also you need to take into consideration that woman come in pear shape or apple shape ect(there are others i just cant think of right now)

Rozie · 12-04-2005 7:07pm

Well science would suggest that if I get 10 overweight people in a room and give them smaller portions of food they will lose weight. They may not all end up the same size but they will lose weight. Basically you do not get clinically obese by eating lettuce(endecrine/mental disorders aside). How many obese people do you see in times of famine? If it's not down to food intake why are we getting fatter in the west?

Of course if you shove a few people into a room and starve them they'll loose weight. But that's neither practical nor healthy. And even if it's a small amount, they'll put it back on again. There have been numerous documentaries and studies on this, and most agree that people very often tend to be fixed at a certain weight, and find it very difficult to change.
A common theme among those who can't loose weight, or can't find the nergy to loose weight, is that they become much, much happier when they accept themselves and stop trying to fit in with common ideals.

And famine is a state of constant suffering, that's a ridiculous example. And I'm pretty sure they'd get fat as soon as they got a decent amount of food going around. How can you imagine them not?

Err, Size 10 doesn't tend to be shapely
I would disagree. My girlfriend is a size 10 and 5 ft 6 and I would consider her shapely. She has a waist that's smaller than her hips for a start. I know many more size tens and only one isn't "shapely". If you look at how men would describe a woman with their hands, they make an hour glass figure in the air. They do not make the shape of a beach ball.

Well, if you consider it shapely, fine, but there's a lot more shape in a size 16, which is where I like girls to be. Those weights generally aren't hideously fat, they just have more shape. I don't see how more bone can make for more pleasant shapes than a woman of that weight.
And even fat women can have nice shapes. It's all about being open minded. Most people are too embarassed to be attracted to a fat woman.

Well it was "common" males who created those images of aphrodite, gaia and marlyn monroe et al that you find so inspiring.

How does that make a difference? The modern common man is the one with about as much appreciation for true beauty as a wilk.
And actually, those are not commen men, those were artists. People that appreciate beauty.

That must be why things like sleep apnea, high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes are reaching epidemic proportions then.

If you take exactly what's been fed to you by the latest anti-fat medical statistics, that's a fantastic point. Seriously, everything is an epidemic these days. Do you see people collapsing constantly in the street? No. People get sick a lot, that happens.
But for the most point, those diseases affect thinner people too very often. There are plenty of healthy fat people. Being "fat" isn't going to be the healthiest thing, but think of all the things you do every day that are unhealthy. Fat people don't have to be grossly unhealthy.
It's been shown that the healthiest weight to be is slightly overweight.
If you ask me, it's work that causes high blood pressure far more than anything else.
Perhaps our diets aren't quite as healthy as they should be, but if it's happening to well over half the population chances are it's not an individual fat person's fault.

So you prefer thin men. Fair enough. Well I prefer thin women. I dont think anyone has to lose weight to be with me either. I just personally find it sexually unattractive and I would be dishonest if I said it didn't make a difference.

But you're also arguing that being fat is a globaly completely undesirable state to be, just not in your opinion, whereas I am arguing for global acceptance of larger people.

I can't believe how that wonderful piece written by Laura Judd went right over your head. I also don't like how people judge things on statistics and believe they're more correct than a person actually living in that world.
I personally have a strong dislike for thin stomachs on women, I can't see why someone would find it attractive. But I don't think they "Have" to gain weight.

Seraphina · 12-04-2005 7:54pm

my personal opinion, like so many others, is its all about proportion.
the whole perfect 10 thing is a myth. i would consider myself to be in pretty good shape. i'm pretty fit and i go to the gym regularly. nothing jiggles (except my boobs), but there's no way i'd ever be a size ten. i have hips and an ass that just aint going anywhere. they're not fat, just curvy.
for a start the whole judging on sizes is stupid anyway, considering they vary so much and take very little into account. two girls at size 16 could look drastically different.
the important things are muscle tone, and how and where the weight is carried.
you can get size 10 women with bellies hanging out over their jeans.
with men, i like mine defined. the current bf is almost skinnier than me, which i find a bit odd, but he is much taller than me, muscular and very hot

that doesn't mean i want stick-like guys, but i cant say i like fat. size/weight is irrelevant, but wobbling is not on, i just dont find it attractive, in myself or others.
but each to their own, and i'm fully aware there are plenty of guys out there that would consider me either too fat or too skinny. that's their opinion and im fine with it.

GuanYin · 12-04-2005 8:06pm

Seraphina wrote:

my personal opinion, like so many others, is its all about proportion.
the whole perfect 10 thing is a myth. i would consider myself to be in pretty good shape. i'm pretty fit and i go to the gym regularly. nothing jiggles (except my boobs), but there's no way i'd ever be a size ten. i have hips and an ass that just aint going anywhere. they're not fat, just curvy.
for a start the whole judging on sizes is stupid anyway, considering they vary so much and take very little into account. two girls at size 16 could look drastically different.
the important things are muscle tone, and how and where the weight is carried.
you can get size 10 women with bellies hanging out over their jeans.
with men, i like mine defined. the current bf is almost skinnier than me, which i find a bit odd, but he is much taller than me, muscular and very hot
that doesn't mean i want stick-like guys, but i cant say i like fat. size/weight is irrelevant, but wobbling is not on, i just dont find it attractive, in myself or others.
but each to their own, and i'm fully aware there are plenty of guys out there that would consider me either too fat or too skinny. that's their opinion and im fine with it.

Nah, I wouldn't ever have said you were "fat".

Seraphina · 12-04-2005 9:16pm

edit: ahh syke.
hadn't a clue who you were for a minute and i was wondering how you knew me

i like your use of inverted comma's
very ambiguous

iguana · 12-04-2005 9:33pm

*Page* wrote:

Ah something to think of!!

when you describe a 10 or a 12 guys what is it?

dress size..
trousers size
hippster size
english size
top size?

i say i'm a 14 but thats my hips and boobs my waist(trouser size) is a 10-2..

to a girl a dress size 10 is pretty straight and not so curvy..

its a beach ball(as mentioned above) when waist is either simulr or larger than either boobs or hips.

also you need to take into consideration that woman come in pear shape or apple shape ect(there are others i just cant think of right now)

The size is generally governed by waist size. If your waist is 28" you are a size 10. If your waist is 30" you're a size 12. And so on.

Your hips and chest might mean that you don't fit in all size 10-12 clothing but that is what you are generally considered to be. If you have difficulty finding clothing this can be helped by being aware of the target age group of the manufacturer. Shops such as Top Shop and Miss Selfridge aim mainly at teenagers so normally their clothing is fairly "straight". Stores such as Wallaces are aimed at the 25-45 market so generally have more curvey clothing. This is why a size 10 is never just a size 10.

And rozie- A size 10 can be perfectly curvy, I wear size 8-10 clothing. I have a 27-28 inch waist, but my breasts and hips are both 38-39 inches. That's a more than obvious curve.

Wibbs · 13-04-2005 10:05am

Of course if you shove a few people into a room and starve them they'll loose weight. But that's neither practical nor healthy. And even if it's a small amount, they'll put it back on again.

They put it on again because they go back to their old eating/exercise habits(for many different reasons).

The modern common man is the one with about as much appreciation for true beauty as a wilk.

Yes we're obviously all insensitive idiots. BTW what's a wilk?

There have been numerous documentaries and studies on this, and most agree that people very often tend to be fixed at a certain weight, and find it very difficult to change.

So if we are "fixed" at a certain weight why than are we getting fatter these days? what's your explanation? With rare exceptions humans in the "wild" are not fat.

If you take exactly what's been fed to you by the latest anti-fat medical statistics, that's a fantastic point. Seriously, everything is an epidemic these days./But for the most point, those diseases affect thinner people too very often.

Eh no they don't. Type 2 diabetes used to be known as late onset diabetes. Not any more. I personally know people in their teens and twenties with it and guess what, they're all overweight. Outside of genetic problems it's a rare disease outside of the west.

People get sick a lot, that happens

Ever wonder why? With many "modern" diseases it's down to diet and excess weight gain.

There are plenty of healthy fat people. Being "fat" isn't going to be the healthiest thing, but think of all the things you do every day that are unhealthy. Fat people don't have to be grossly unhealthy.

Certainly there are thin people who's lifestyle puts them at risk but being fat is still unhealthy.

It's been shown that the healthiest weight to be is slightly overweight.

By whom? Please post a link to back that one up. There was some research that showed that men who retained more muscle mass into middle age were healthier. Muscle not fat. If this were true then it wouldn't be called overweight it would be called normal.

Perhaps our diets aren't quite as healthy as they should be, but if it's happening to well over half the population chances are it's not an individual fat person's fault.

Our diets aren't as healthy as they used to be ergo we're fatter(sedentary lifestyle doesn't help either). I never said it was anyones fault, but if half a population smoked surely it would still be the individual's responsibility to give up smoking? People seem to have no problem with that logic. Why not extend that to overeating? In any case, a man or woman on a healthy diet would be thinner. As I pointed out before the only proven way to radically extend lifespan in higher animals is by adopting a low calorie/high nutrient diet.

I can't believe how that wonderful piece written by Laura Judd went right over your head.

It didn't. I say fair play to her. She comes across as a nice woman(a tad overdone in the self esteem dept, but our US cousins tend to go overboard for that sort o' thing), but that doesn't take away from the fact that she is generally more likely to suffer from heart disease, diabetes, arthritis, hypertension etc. I also find it interesting that she wears a corset in those photos. A piece of clothing designed to reduce the size of the belly and give the impression of an hourglass shape.

In the end I would be of the opinion that if you find fat people attractive, more power to you. If you don't (as I don't), then kindly extend the same courtesy of choice I extend to you.

*Page*

also you need to take into consideration that woman come in pear shape or apple shape

Pear is a better place to be health and attractive wise. TBH apple shape just turns me right off.

Scarinae · 13-04-2005 10:12pm

iguana wrote:

The size is generally governed by waist size. If your waist is 28" you are a size 10. If your waist is 30" you're a size 12. And so on.

No, I don't go with that theory... Cos that would make me a size 10 in general, which I'm not... I'm one of those girls who has that annoying shape where I have a tiny waist and relatively flat stomach, but I have wide hips... Makes jeans almost impossible to find, because they're either too big for my waist or two small for my hips - people always say "you'll have no problem giving birth!" but somehow I don't find that comforting when I'm despairing at ever finding anything to fit me

How big is too big?

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