Is the alternative coalition suitable for our long term national transport strategy?

Irish and Proud · 22-05-2007 10:48pm #1

Is the alternative coalition of FG/Lab/Greens suitable for our long term national transport objectives? I for one don’t think so and here’s why:

1) Enda Kenny’s contract with the people of Ireland seems to be very selective, but more worryingly, has no reference to any specific transport development - not even the inter-urban motorways. If Enda Kenny becomes Taoiseach, he is more than likely going to require Labour and the Greens.

Now, the Greens policy is to honour all existing road contracts, but basically stop everything else subject to further analysis and reprioritisation.

Bearing in mind that some interurban sections are not yet under contract, will this mean a half finished motorway network joined up with 2+1 sections on existing alignments? Also, with Labour on tow, money will be required to fund left wing ideologies which will put serious strain on any provision for major infrastructure projects - if there is any economic downturn over the next couple of years, you could almost certainly forget about the Dublin Rail Inter-connector and the Dublin Metro - both these projects will require billions in capital. Remember, there’s no reference to either of the above projects in Enda Kenny’s contract either. And that’s not to mention the LUAS proposals.

2) Going back to the interurban motorways, one has to remember how many years the current government has spent putting the parameters in place for the systematic rollout of these highways (design & build contracts, planning procedures etc). OK, the routes are behind schedule by 5 years or more, but most importantly, they are being done.

For example, take the N4/N6 for Dublin to Galway - in 2003, work began on the 18 mile M4 Kilcock to Kinnegead section and was opened in Dec 2005. At that stage, the 18 mile Kinnegead to Kibeggan section of the N6 HQDC was underway. Now, the same section has just opened to traffic (May 2007). Last year, another 18 mile section of the N6 from Kilbeggan to Athlone has commenced and is now on course for completion in 2008. So, what this boils down to is that over 50 miles of the Dublin to Galway motorway/HQDC will be completed from start to finish in just five years, and that’s just one road!!!

Look at the N8 Portlaoise to Cork now, not to mention the completion of the M1, M50 and M7 (Naas to Portlaoise) motorways - now that’s quite a long way from the bad old days!

3) If any of the highway rollout procedures or rail procurement schemes are stalled by the alternative coalition, such schemes would probably be prolonged for more than 5 years, even if the current government returned in 2012. Firstly, the momentum may have to be restarted (administrative structures, design teams, contractor’s etc) and the planning process recommenced (do road scheme approvals expire after 5 years?) after which the money mightn’t be there in the face of an economic downturn. :mad: That would be a shameful waste of an opportunity we currently have to get things done. Regarding all aspects of politics, this current government is far from perfect

, but I certainly have no confidence in the alternative which is why I’ll be voting for FF and PD. Of course, we do want a proper health service etc, but that can only be funded by a sustainable economy of which proper infrastructure is a central part.

I'll leave it there for now!

segadreamcast · 22-05-2007 11:03pm

"Of course, we do want a proper health service etc, but that can only be funded by a sustainable economy of which proper infrastructure is a central part."

Would this be the proper infrastructure which, throughout your blatantly slanted post, you've managed to tacitly admit we've lacked thus far?

The present Government has failed during the last ten years to provide a worthwhile infrastructure - be it road, rail or telecom. This coalition or, for that matter, any other coalition, would have a better chance of getting more projects done on the following criteria:

ON TIME
ON BUDGET

The present Government has failed in several instances on both these criteria though post-2005 they have, I admit, tightened their belt in this regard.

Zoney · 22-05-2007 11:50pm

Irish and Proud wrote:

2) Going back to the interurban motorways, one has to remember how many years the current government has spent putting the parameters in place for the systematic rollout of these highways (design & build contracts, planning procedures etc). OK, the routes are behind schedule by 5 years or more, but most importantly, they are being done.

And if you think they would not be completed by the alternative govt. you are not living in reality and have been plugged into the Greens propaganda too much. The most the Greens will get to influence in govt. (*if* they are required at all by any prospective coalition) is perhaps some much needed focus on public transport, and similarly needed focus on sustainability (sensible development, energy conservation, etc - these things make financial sense for Ireland that imports so much of our energy needs; and should not be the exclusive preserve of eco-warriors)

The major point is that the interurbans are behind five years or more, and this is catastrophic because the next five years should have been available to complete some of the *other* routes - it isn't good enough to have a goat track between Limerick and Cork even if that route isn't as high priority as the interurbans.

now that’s quite a long way from the bad old days!

We're in 2007 with ten years of Celtic Tiger and still going. Surprisingly enough that means we can afford to actually build infrastructure now. The question is why more hasn't been done with the money in the last ten years, particularly in health and education. As regards transport the question should be how we've relatively little to show for the time and expenditure, even if the deliveries thus far look wonderful and marvellous to us used to goat-tracks (indeed there are many national primary roads that still are).

Irish and Proud · 23-05-2007 12:02am

NoelRock wrote:

Would this be the proper infrastructure which, throughout your blatantly slanted post, you've managed to tacitly admit we've lacked thus far?

The present Government has failed during the last ten years to provide a worthwhile infrastructure - be it road, rail or telecom. This coalition or, for that matter, any other coalition, would have a better chance of getting more projects done on the following criteria:

ON TIME
ON BUDGET

The present Government has failed in several instances on both these criteria though post-2005 they have, I admit, tightened their belt in this regard.

I'm not exactly trying to say this government is brilliant, but there's no proper alternative available. With this in mind, I'm just saying that given that the country is on the verge of having a national motorway system plus an enhanced rail network, let's not throw a spanner in the works by putting in a coalition that shows no specific commitment towards infrastructure - we may not get another opportunity in the above regard for another two decades or so.

You admit that belt tightening on the part of the government took place post 2005 - well I'd say it's more like 2003 - the M4 Kilcock to Kinnegead, N2 Ashbourne Bypass, M8 Fermoy Bypass and N18 Ennis Bypass are all design and build contracts. Of course, roads under traditional style contracts (M50 SE Motorway for example) have opened since then, but such would have commenced construction well before 2003. Mind you, design and build should have been brought in much earlier, but in any case, at least we have it now! Road schemes are now coming in ahead of time (maybe the time given should be tighter) and on budget. There is still room for improvement, but infrastructure provision nowadays is a hell of a lot better than it was in the 1990's.

Seeing that you mention the governments failure to provide infrastructure over the last ten years, I think it's fair to say that when they said 2007 for completing the inter-urbans, it was inexperience on their part - no Irish government has ever attempted such a programme, so they were in un-chartered waters - but they are sticking to their guns and are on course to having most of these routes done by 2011 - certainly better than any past government, whether they were FF, FG, PD, Lab or whatever.

I'll leave it there!

Irish and Proud · 23-05-2007 12:22am

Zoney wrote:

We're in 2007 with ten years of Celtic Tiger and still going. Surprisingly enough that means we can afford to actually build infrastructure now. The question is why more hasn't been done with the money in the last ten years, particularly in health and education. As regards transport the question should be how we've relatively little to show for the time and expenditure, even if the deliveries thus far look wonderful and marvellous to us used to goat-tracks (indeed there are many national primary roads that still are).

Yes, we are in 2007 with ten years of unprecedented exchequer income, but national projects have also risen in cost - CPO land (€20k min per acre for heaven's sake), building materials, labour, compensation etc, as well as the fact that people now have more money for litigation purposes - something that was losing a vast amount of time regarding infrastructure - think of the M50 Southern Cross (meant to start in 1992 - completed 2001) and South Eastern motorway sections. Also, when the government tried to get the inter-urbans delivered, they had to get the planning process sorted out first (something they should have known I'll admit) and also the contract procedures to cut construction time and cost. Much of this has now been sorted so many of the inter-urbans are now underway.

I'll leave it there!

Victor · 23-05-2007 8:59am

Irish and Proud wrote:

I think it's fair to say that when they said 2007 for completing the inter-urbans,

No, they said 2006.

Irish and Proud wrote:

it was inexperience on their part

In part, but I much prefer the term "gobshíteism" (boasting they were going to do something that they didn't plan or budget for).

Irish and Proud wrote:

no Irish government has ever attempted such a programme, so they were in un-chartered waters

People knew what it took to build a road - and thats what they budgeted for, they simply omitted concepts like major bridges, interchanges, archaeology and the like - the important bits.

Irish and Proud wrote:

but they are sticking to their guns

Surely, you mean sticking at being gobshítes?

Irish and Proud wrote:

but they are sticking to their guns and are on course to having most of these routes done by 2011 .

Thats not "sticking to their guns" - thats backtracking by 5 years.

Irish and Proud wrote:

certainly better than any past government, whether they were FF, FG, PD, Lab or whatever.

Its been about money, taxpayer's money, not who is in power.

markpb · 23-05-2007 9:13am

Irish and Proud wrote:

Is the alternative coalition of FG/Lab/Greens suitable for our long term national transport objectives? I for one don’t think so and here’s why [snip] I'll leave it there for now!

That was a great rant at why you want motorways built, completely ignoring every other part of our transport system and badly hiding the fact that you think FF are the bees knees because they built a few motorways badly and over budget (hint: building roads isn't rocket science, people do it all the time). Well done

Bards · 23-05-2007 9:23am

Victor wrote:

No, they said 2006.
In part, but I much prefer the term "gobshíteism" (boasting they were going to do something that they didn't plan or budget for).
People knew what it took to build a road - and thats what they budgeted for, they simply omitted concepts like major bridges, interchanges, archaeology and the like - the important bits.
Surely, you mean sticking at being gobshítes?
Thats not "sticking to their guns" - thats backtracking by 5 years.
Its been about money, taxpayer's money, not who is in power.

People are forgetting that T21 is a ten year framework for financing Transport Infrastructure. It is the first time in our history that the NRA RPA etc have a ten year rolling framework in which to budget and plan, as opposed to the old model of year to year, budget to budget to see how much would be allocated this year to the different agencies.

That is one thing you can thank Martin Cullen for even though he is dispised by the media for not being in the D4 clan

markpb · 23-05-2007 9:26am

Bards wrote:

People are forgetting that T21 is a ten year framework for financing Transport Infrastructure. It is the first time in our history that the NRA RPA etc have a ten year rolling framework in which to budget and plan, as opposed to the old model of year to year, budget to budget to see how much would be allocated this year to the different agencies.

That is one thing you can thank Martin Cullen for even though he is dispised by the media for not being in the D4 clan

Is forward planning by politicians something we should be surprised and grateful for now? Hurray. Now if only he'd done in three years earlier at the start of his term instead of the end. Or if Seamus Brennan had done it while the money was rolling in.

PS He's despised because he's useless and clueless.

Victor · 23-05-2007 9:47am

Bards wrote:

People are forgetting that T21 is a ten year framework for financing Transport Infrastructure. It is the first time in our history that the NRA RPA etc have a ten year rolling framework in which to budget and plan, as opposed to the old model of year to year, budget to budget to see how much would be allocated this year to the different agencies.

Haven't multi-year budgets been on the go for a couple of years? (And about time too).

Bards · 23-05-2007 10:05am

markpb wrote:

Is forward planning by politicians something we should be surprised and grateful for now? Hurray. Now if only he'd done in three years earlier at the start of his term instead of the end. Or if Seamus Brennan had done it while the money was rolling in.

PS He's despised because he's useless and clueless.

he did.. only been in transport for two years...

Irish and Proud · 23-05-2007 1:26pm

Bards wrote:

People are forgetting that T21 is a ten year framework for financing Transport Infrastructure. It is the first time in our history that the NRA RPA etc have a ten year rolling framework in which to budget and plan, as opposed to the old model of year to year, budget to budget to see how much would be allocated this year to the different agencies.

That is one thing you can thank Martin Cullen for even though he is dispised by the media for not being in the D4 clan

Many thanks for that mate - I've been reading this forum for quite some time and much of what I see is just FF bashing (of course, I'm not assuming that you support either FF or PD). Needless to say, the rollout of the transport strategy isn't perfect, but what many people fail to mention is that it's the first time we've had a strategy like you mentioned. Would the same people like to analyse FG/Lab of the 1980's and their performance on infrastructure - I won't even go there, and FF/Lab of the 1990's weren't much better either.

For those who are ranting at the current government - OK, we didn't have as much money in the 1980's or 90's, but things were a lot cheaper then and most major towns should have been provided with at least a simple S2 urban bypass stretching a couple of miles or so. In the 1980's we had to sit for up to 30mins in towns like Newbridge on the N7, Mitchelstown on the N8, Shankill on the N11, Longford on the N4 to name just a few - all for the want of simple relief roads at low cost - it was a total disgrace! :mad: Also, remember all the fanfare and hype surrounding Dublin's East Link opening in 1984 - I remember it on radio and TV! I didn't see quite as much hype for the Dublin Port Tunnel.

Let's get real!

Irish and Proud · 23-05-2007 1:47pm

Victor wrote:

No, they said 2006.
In part, but I much prefer the term "gobshíteism" (boasting they were going to do something that they didn't plan or budget for).

The inter-urbans are late, but they are being done - that's the important thing!

Victor wrote:

People knew what it took to build a road - and thats what they budgeted for, they simply omitted concepts like major bridges, interchanges, archaeology and the like - the important bits.

Don't be ridiculous! :mad:

Victor wrote:

Surely, you mean sticking at being gobshítes?

Is that the best arguement you can put forward?

Victor wrote:

Thats not "sticking to their guns" - thats backtracking by 5 years.
Its been about money, taxpayer's money, not who is in power.

Well, I'd love to see you up there in power! :rolleyes:
I don't know what the last sentence is supposed to mean.

Irish and Proud · 23-05-2007 1:55pm

markpb wrote:

That was a great rant at why you want motorways built, completely ignoring every other part of our transport system and badly hiding the fact that you think FF are the bees knees because they built a few motorways badly and over budget (hint: building roads isn't rocket science, people do it all the time). Well done

Well you obviously haven't done too much research!

markf909 · 23-05-2007 2:59pm

That is one thing you can thank Martin Cullen for even though he is dispised by the media for not being in the D4 clan

Possibly the funniest thing i've read on this forum.

ednwireland · 23-05-2007 3:09pm

Irish and Proud wrote:

I'm not exactly trying to say this government is brilliant, but there's no proper alternative available. With this in mind, I'm just saying that given that the country is on the verge of having a national motorway system plus an enhanced rail network,

could you tell me where this national motorway network is i havent seen one motorway north or south dual carrigeways are not motorways no matter hat igns you pu on them. i live in donegal drove to athlone recently didnt see one peice of dual carrigeway never mind motorway. there may be moe roads but on the verge of a national motorway network wake up we are far far far from that.

enhanced railway network dont get me started

when youve woke from your bizarre dream let me know

Stark · 23-05-2007 3:21pm

edwinireland wrote:

could you tell me where this national motorway network is i havent seen one motorway north or south dual carrigeways are not motorways no matter hat igns you pu on them.

?

What do you define as a motorway then?

Slice · 23-05-2007 3:26pm

Seeing that you mention the governments failure to provide infrastructure over the last ten years, I think it's fair to say that when they said 2007 for completing the inter-urbans, it was inexperience on their part - no Irish government has ever attempted such a programme, so they were in un-chartered waters - but they are sticking to their guns and are on course to having most of these routes done by 2011 - certainly better than any past government, whether they were FF, FG, PD, Lab or whatever.

I don't think it's fair on the alternative coalition to imply that if and when they enter government they'll be bringing with them the same degree of inexperience you seem to be acknowledging the present government had when it embarked on its programme of capital investment in infrastructure. Keep in mind that whatever experience gained by the present government is actually experience gained by the civil service; the same civil service that will be answerable to whatever parties getting into the next government.

Stark · 23-05-2007 3:49pm

Irish and Proud wrote:

Enda Kenny’s contract with the people of Ireland seems to be very selective, but more worryingly, has no reference to any specific transport development - not even the inter-urban motorways. If Enda Kenny becomes Taoiseach, he is more than likely going to require Labour and the Greens. Now, the Greens policy is to honour all existing road contracts, but basically stop everything else subject to further analysis and reprioritisation. Bearing in mind that some interurban sections are not yet under contract, will this mean a half finished motorway network joined up with 2+1 sections on existing alignments?

Well I doubt the Greens will have much influence over FG/Labour in this regard if they get into government.

Irish and Proud · 23-05-2007 3:58pm

Slice wrote:

I don't think it's fair on the alternative coalition to imply that if and when they enter government they'll be bringing with them the same degree of inexperience you seem to be acknowledging the present government had when it embarked on its programme of capital investment in infrastructure. Keep in mind that whatever experience gained by the present government is actually experience gained by the civil service; the same civil service that will be answerable to whatever parties getting into the next government.

That's a fair and balanced point!

However, my main concern with the alternative coalition is the diversity of party policies especially if the Greens are involved. What will be compromised to form such a government? Will all the inter-urbans, M50 upgrade as well as the Atlantic Western Corridor be realised or will some schemes be dropped. I know the Greens will have a small mandate, but FG has been known to let the tail wag the dog in coalitions before, so for that reason, I'm very concerned. Maybe Enda Kenny will be different to other FG leaders but as it stands, he's an unknown quantity.

I'll leave it there.

Irish and Proud · 23-05-2007 4:18pm

ednwireland wrote:

could you tell me where this national motorway network is i havent seen one motorway north or south dual carrigeways are not motorways no matter hat igns you pu on them. i live in donegal drove to athlone recently didnt see one peice of dual carrigeway never mind motorway. there may be moe roads but on the verge of a national motorway network wake up we are far far far from that.

enhanced railway network dont get me started

when youve woke from your bizarre dream let me know

Have you heard of a map? :rolleyes:
Have you heard of www.nra.ie :rolleyes:

Oh, and I've been on many main roads in France, Spain and Britain where motorways are few and far between - of course not every main road is becoming a motorway. Don't be silly! :mad:

BTW, Donegal wouldn't have the traffic to justify a motorway (capacity: 50k+) - if there's one road in Donegal that even reaches 20k, tell me about it - D2AP, 2+1 or WS2 is probably what you need there.

As for HQDCs, the design criteria is exactly the same as for motorways (120kph design speed). The alignments and junctions are designed to exactly the same specification. The only differences are that the signs are green, there's no emergency phones provided, lay-bys are provided, and most types of motor traffic are permitted.

I'll leave it there.

stipey · 23-05-2007 4:22pm

We have a long term national transport strategy? Cool!

The cost and times overruns on the majority of our infrastructure projects are, in many cases, nothing short of incredible.

I work as a Business Analyse/Software Engineer - my job is to analyse our client's requirements, estimate how long the project will take and then lead a small team of developers in delivering the solution.

I know it is on a smaller scale but if I understimated the time and effort involved to the same extent (percentage wise) as regularly as our civil servants seem to our company would face some tough questions and I would be dragged over hot coals in turn. It would be more than my job is worth. If I decide to cover my own ass by overestimating our tenders would not be competitive and we would all be out of a job.

Why aren't these jobs fixed price instead of time and materials based? This whole "ooops we found a big rock that we'll have to move... we hadn't reckoned on finding stuff like this when we were digging - that will be an extra X million please?" is ridiculous. Paying it out of public money, no apparent questions asked is just taking the piss.

Bards · 23-05-2007 4:31pm

stipey wrote:

We have a long term national transport strategy? Cool!

The cost and times overruns on the majority of our infrastructure projects are, in many cases, nothing short of incredible.

I work as a Business Analyse/Software Engineer - my job is to analyse our client's requirements, estimate how long the project will take and then lead a small team of developers in delivering the solution.

I know it is on a smaller scale but if I understimated the time and effort involved to the same extent (percentage wise) as regularly as our civil servants seem to our company would face some tough questions and I would be dragged over hot coals in turn. It would be more than my job is worth. If I decide to cover my own ass by overestimating our tenders would not be competitive and we would all be out of a job.

Why aren't these jobs fixed price instead of time and materials based? This whole "ooops we found a big rock that we'll have to move... we hadn't reckoned on finding stuff like this when we were digging - that will be an extra X million please?" is ridiculous. Paying it out of public money, no apparent questions asked is just taking the piss.

and that is why they are all design & build contracts now.. some are even early contractor involvement like the M8 Cashel Mitchelstown, where more of the risk is now carried by the contractor

markpb · 23-05-2007 4:33pm

stipey wrote:

Why aren't these jobs fixed price instead of time and materials based? This whole "ooops we found a big rock that we'll have to move... we hadn't reckoned on finding stuff like this when we were digging - that will be an extra X million please?" is ridiculous. Paying it out of public money, no apparent questions asked is just taking the piss.

They are now. Apparently it never occurred to anyone in the NRA to do that until this year!

The downside of course is that everyone will add on a bit to make sure they make a profit and to cover any unexpected costs. They know they're dealing with the government so that 'bit' can be quite a big bit, especialy since they know they can get away with a big bit because everyone else is doing it too

Slice · 23-05-2007 4:36pm

I suppose it's also a question of how much voters think the present coalition parties are likely to deliver on promises made. I think with roads they've shown that they've been able to deliver, but with public transport it's just one failure after another. If I cared that much about having HQDCs across the country I'd definitely vote FF or PDs, but I don't so that would influence my decision also.

stipey · 23-05-2007 4:47pm

So so they are more or less fixed price now.... but why did it take so long to figure out this might be the way forward. Doesn't exactly show the current administration in a fiscally prudent light now does it?

And as for contingency add-ons i doubt they will be on the scale indicated below (300+%). Source: Village Magazine. Anybody who overestimates to this extent will not have the most competitive tender so even if there is a little extra "just in case" figure in their estimate the public coffers will still be better off.

Promise: Implement the National Roads Programme by 2006

Fianna Fáil specifically promised delivery by 2006. The roads programme is now running seven years late and the cost of the programme, which was to be €5.6bn, will certainly be over €17bn (according to the Comptroller and Auditor General) and, very likely, far higher.

(Wasn't there some statistic going around when the luas was finally rolled out that the whole project - all €700 million of it - was more than the American's spent getting to the moon)

Idbatterim · 23-05-2007 5:34pm

good points about the N6 dual carriageway/motorway, my parents bought a house down there 2 years ago, then you had the m4 motorway ending before enfield, now you can travel to kilbeggan and the new stretch that will link up with the Athlone bypass will be done next year. Its easy to criticise the government but in fairness we have only had money for 10 years, in 3 more years all the interurban routes are scheduled to be complete. I mean when they talk about the Germans and French etc, having good infrastructure, they have 80 and 60 million people respectively and are slap bang in the middle of europe. what else would you expect? it think given irelands position and population (small but concentrated mainly in Leinster) its impressive they can build a 200km motorway to link to Galway for example with a population of 70k! We will also soon have the newest average age rail fleet in Europe...

Irish and Proud · 23-05-2007 7:44pm

stipey wrote:

So so they are more or less fixed price now.... but why did it take so long to figure out this might be the way forward. Doesn't exactly show the current administration in a fiscally prudent light now does it?

I would agree that fixed price contracts should have been included from the very start of the National Development Plan. With motorways such as the M1, a lot of taxpayers money was wasted on monuments to people's ego - I mean oversized and over-skewed road bridges that made their engineers look good. I believe that the transport minister of around 2002, Seamus Brennan, was very instrumental in calling a halt (should have been before 1999 though!). Also, design and build was introduced as part of the fixed price contracting regime then. However, I disagree with the narrower continental style motorways with concrete barriers (to cut costs further), but hey, they're still better than what they're bypassing by a mile, and at least the schemes are longer (many are now around 20 miles) and more meaningful.

I'll leave it there.

Victor · 23-05-2007 7:47pm

This board is equal oppurtunites. We bash the opposition / media / WRC / other hair brained schemes.

Irish and Proud wrote:

Don't be ridiculous! :mad:

No, thats exactly how they did it. Look at the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report. How else do you think they went from 6 billion to 14 billion+.

Irish and Proud wrote:

Well, I'd love to see you up there in power! :rolleyes:

I'm doing my bit. I've sat on the Dublin City Council Transport Committe, I've made submissions on Luas and Docklands Station. I've just proofread the Road Traffic Collisions Statistics for 2005 for the RSA. What have you done for us?

Irish and Proud wrote:

Victor wrote:

Its been about money, taxpayer's money, not who is in power.

I don't know what the last sentence is supposed to mean.

It means that if oother parties were in power for the last ten years that they would also have made transport improvements, hopefully with a little less complacancy. The only thing different between now any any time in the past is money.

Irish and Proud wrote:

Have you heard of a map? :rolleyes: Have you heard of www.nra.ie :rolleyes: .

Yeah and theres sod all dual carriageway from Donegal to Athlone (Sligo Bypass and Athlone Bypass).

Bards wrote:

and that is why they are all design & build contracts now.. some are even early contractor involvement like the M8 Cashel Mitchelstown, where more of the risk is now carried by the contractor

Cashel Mitchelstown stops well short of Mitchelstown and isn't motorway.

Irish and Proud wrote:

With motorways such as the M1, a lot of taxpayers money was wasted on monuments to people's ego

Do you mean things like an interchange for everybody in the audience? Thats still happening. In the UK or France there are sectiosn of motorway 20 or 30km long without and interchange. Here, other than the M1 in Louth, I doubt if you go over about 8km.

Irish and Proud · 23-05-2007 7:56pm

Idbatterim wrote:

good points about the N6 dual carriageway/motorway, my parents bought a house down there 2 years ago, then you had the m4 motorway ending before enfield, now you can travel to kilbeggan and the new stretch that will link up with the Athlone bypass will be done next year. Its easy to criticise the government but in fairness we have only had money for 10 years, in 3 more years all the interurban routes are scheduled to be complete. I mean when they talk about the Germans and French etc, having good infrastructure, they have 80 and 60 million people respectively and are slap bang in the middle of europe. what else would you expect? it think given irelands position and population (small but concentrated mainly in Leinster) its impressive they can build a 200km motorway to link to Galway for example with a population of 70k! We will also soon have the newest average age rail fleet in Europe...

Very good point about this country in relation to others - our population stands at just 4.23m (2006 census). With this in mind, we have just completed one of Europe's largest civil engineering projects: The Dublin Port Tunnel (DPT), which is also the only scheme ever to exceed the scale of Ardnacrusha in the state. Also, bear in mind that no tunnel in Britain is as long as the DPT. And then there's what you were saying above ...

So yes, we can be Irish and Proud!

Irish and Proud · 23-05-2007 8:22pm

Victor wrote:

I'm doing my bit. I've sat on the Dublin City Council Transport Committe, I've made submissions on Luas and Docklands Station. I've just proofread the Road Traffic Collisions Statistics for 2005 for the RSA. What have you done for us?

Well it's good that you're active in making a contribution to this country!

However, the argument is not about what you are doing, it's more about your attitude to the government, something which I'd expect to be more impartial on the part of a moderator.

Victor wrote:

It means that if other parties were in power for the last ten years that they would also have made transport improvements, hopefully with a little less complacancy.

With left wing ideologies with Labour and the Greens, I wouldn't be so sure about the level of investment in comparison to this government.

Victor wrote:

Yeah and theres sod all dual carriageway from Donegal to Athlone (Sligo Bypass and Athlone Bypass)..

Route: N15 to Sligo, N4 to Boyle, N61 via Roscommon
Non DC sections: around 8500 CPUs at most! :rolleyes:

Victor wrote:

Cashel Mitchelstown stops well short of Mitchelstown and isn't motorway.

It's still designed for 120kph, so the point is ...

Victor wrote:

Do you mean things like an interchange for everybody in the audience? Thats still happening.

We do have a dispersed rural population compared to other countries, so we need more junctions!

I'll leave it there.

Is the alternative coalition suitable for our long term national transport strategy?

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