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Interview with Vinny Byrne of the IRA 'Squad'

  • 24-05-2010 4:32pm
    #1
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭


    When I was in secondary school the most memorable video we watched was an interview with one Vincent Byrne, member of Óglaigh na hÉireann. He was very old at the time of this interview. It was brilliant, partly because there was a character down the back of the class giving a running commentary and imitation of Vinny Byrne's unforgettable working-class Dublin accent as Vinny described how he and the rest of Michael Collins's 'Squad' or '12 Disciples' wiped out the 'Cairo Gang' on Bloody Sunday 1920. It was an absolute legend of an account. You really felt you were there the way Vinny recounted everything.

    byrne.jpg

    This is a very old picture of Vinny Byrne when he was a young fella.


    300px-Some_of_the_squad.jpg

    Vinny Byrne is the fella in the middle in this photo.

    Here's the wikipedia article on 'the Squad':

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Squad_(Irish_Republican_Army_unit)


    Does anybody know where I could find that interview now? That's really what I'd most like to know. Also, what happened to Vinny after the War?


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Not sure where the interview would be available (assuming it's not on youtube etc). He is also covered in these books (in case you haven't already got them)

    http://www.amazon.com/Squad-intelligence-operations-Michael-Collins/dp/1856354695/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274721956&sr=8-11

    & Tim Pat Coogans 'Michael Collins'.

    After the war he was a member of the 1916-21 club, also in the Irish Army. I read online that he worked for P&T & I believe he died in 1992 aged 92.


  • #3
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Wasn't his famous line in that interview 'I plugged him' referring to one of the Cairo gang?


  • #4
    heartofarebel
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭heartofarebel


    Hi Rebel Heart, no wonder I couldn't pick that user name. Just came across your posting. I'm a great nephew of Vinny Byrne. My grandmother was his sister. I have seen many interviews over the years with Vinny. Even to this day he still comes up on RTE now and again. He lived in 1 Annes Lane off Grafton Street during the War of Independence. The house is still there today but is now a restaurant. He resigned his commision in 1924 after the Army Mutiny. He later worked in the P&T. He lived most his life in Drimnagh, where he become a founding member of the Drimnagh Credit Union. He married a second time after his wife died. He had a son and 2 daughters by his first wife, which all moved, funny enough to England. One still survives and lives just outside Merseyside. She is in her 80's now. He later moved to Artane where I live myself, just up the road from him. He died in 1992 at the great age of 92. It took him many years to talk to the family about what he was envolved with. In a meeting of the 16-21 club, which was made up of members of the Old IRA, the surviving members of the squad took a vote to see who would do it all again if they had to. Vinny was the only one who said yes. He was that much of a hard liner. He became the chairman of the 16-21 club. I hope this gives you some insight into Vinny and if you would like to know any thing else about him please feel free to ask.


  • #5
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    When I was in secondary school the most memorable video we watched was an interview with one Vincent Byrne, member of Óglaigh na hÉireann. He was very old at the time of this interview. It was brilliant, partly because there was a character down the back of the class giving a running commentary and imitation of Vinny Byrne's unforgettable working-class Dublin accent as Vinny described how he and the rest of Michael Collins's 'Squad' or '12 Disciples' wiped out the 'Cairo Gang' on Bloody Sunday 1920. It was an absolute legend of an account. You really felt you were there the way Vinny recounted everything.

    byrne.jpg

    This is a very old picture of Vinny Byrne when he was a young fella.


    300px-Some_of_the_squad.jpg

    Vinny Byrne is the fella in the middle in this photo.

    Here's the wikipedia article on 'the Squad':

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Squad_(Irish_Republican_Army_unit)


    Does anybody know where I could find that interview now? That's really what I'd most like to know. Also, what happened to Vinny after the War?

    I just checked through my own videos and found an interview with Vinny Byrne in the RTE production "The Shadow of Bealnablath". It was produced in 1988. They have an interview with him and also they bring him to the house where the killings took place and have him walk in to the room and describe what happened.


  • #6
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    If anyone knows of any other books or online documentaries that cover Vinny Byrne or the Squad please post them here.


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  • #7
    heartofarebel
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭heartofarebel


    A real good book is The Squad by T. Ryle Dwyer. This was wrote using interviews by the members of the squad that was given in the fifties to the Bureau of Military History. It gives first hand accounts of actions involving the squad. Other books are, Michael Collins the lost leader by Margery Forester, Michael Collins by Tim Pat Coogan, which is a very good book and my favorite Carlton Younger's Ireland's Civil War of which I have a copy that Vinny signed for me. The link is about the actions on Bloody Sunday by the squad on the Cairo Gang. The British agents sent to destroy the IRA in Dublin. Morlar I have the books I mentioned if you want to have a look. He gave a great interview to the journalist Robert Kee for the documentry, Ireland A History. There is bits of the series on Youtube but I can't seem to find anything with Vinny. Pathe News has put all their archives on their website which has some good images from that time.


    http://www.cairogang.com/ira-men/byrne-vinny.html


  • #8
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    heartofarebel wrote: »
    A real good book is The Squad by T. Ryle Dwyer. This was wrote using interviews by the members of the squad that was given in the fifties to the Bureau of Military History. It gives first hand accounts of actions involving the squad. Other books are, Michael Collins the lost leader by Margery Forester, Michael Collins by Tim Pat Coogan, which is a very good book and my favorite Carlton Younger's Ireland's Civil War of which I have a copy that Vinny signed for me. The link is about the actions on Bloody Sunday by the squad on the Cairo Gang. The British agents sent to destroy the IRA in Dublin. Morlar I have the books I mentioned if you want to have a look. He gave a great interview to the journalist Robert Kee for the documentry, Ireland A History. There is bits of the series on Youtube but I can't seem to find anything with Vinny. Pathe News has put all their archives on their website which has some good images from that time.


    http://www.cairogang.com/ira-men/byrne-vinny.html

    Have to agree the Dwyer book is completely outstanding, also the Tim Pat Coogan one.

    The Dwyer expands a lot on the TPC one in terms of the nitty gritty of day to day operations for those men and the level of detail is incredible, all sorts of mindblowing anecdotes from that period in Ireland.

    One anecdote that stood out was the tale of a british army private who left the castle on a motorcycle with a sidecar one morning. Got ambushed by some volunteers who took his bike and decided to send him on his way as he was just a private.

    He walked down the road a while and then saw some men outside a house, (I believe this was on bloody sunday).

    Vinny bryne was at the house with a squad split into different parts to search the old georgian house, one unit upstairs, one down the back and one for the front rooms. They were after senior ba and intelligence operatives. The private was forced to approach and surrender then made stand in the hallway while the house was searched and the senior british army & intelligence men were shot.

    When this job was done Vinny byrne then turned to the private and decided to let him go as he was just a private - he was told to stand there for 15 mins before raising the alarm or they would come back for him. So that unit of the squad then left. The Private stood there in the hallway as ordered and a few minutes later another unit who had been searching the back of the house appeared and on seeing the private in the hallway assumed the worst and immediately opened fire - he dived into the room and locked the door behind him and the remaining unit decided to let him go and left. So in the course of an hour that single british army private had 3 seperate very lucky escapes with hardened IRA volunteers. That is just one example of a throwaway anecdote in the dwyer book that I would highly recommend also.

    I would definitely be into seeing those other books you mentioned and will dig up the Robert Kee one on youtube from a home PC when I get a chance. Cheers.


  • #9
    heartofarebel
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭heartofarebel


    It's funny how his name keeps coming up. I have seen other forums from the UK that even have topics about him.

    The attack on the Custom House was probably the closest he came to been captured. After he had dumped his gun he was heading down to the Northstrand when a British army patrol stopped him and started to question him.

    He was asked where he was coming from and going to. He answered that he was coming from Brooke Thomas, which was a building merchants. When they searched his pockets they found a receipt for wood which he had bought before. It was just luck that he had it on him when he was stopped.

    He was a carpenter by trade and the Squad used his shop as a meeting place.

    The house in Annes Lane was raided many times in which he had to run through the attics of the adjoining houses to escape. They always missed him and also never found a rifle which he kept hanging under clothes on a
    clothesline. I think the rifle is still on display in O'Connells school in Ballybough. His pistol, (Peter the Painter) is on display in Collins Barracks.


  • #10
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    MarchDub wrote: »
    I just checked through my own videos and found an interview with Vinny Byrne in the RTE production "The Shadow of Bealnablath". It was produced in 1988. They have an interview with him and also they bring him to the house where the killings took place and have him walk in to the room and describe what happened.

    Good guess, Marchdub. I just checked it out on Youtube and the entire documentary appears to be there. The relevant section is here, beginning at 2.47.

    However, Vinny Byrne appears in only one scene here. In the documentary I'm thinking of he appears for much longer.

    Any other documentary names, anybody?


  • #11
    prodigy1
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭prodigy1


    heartofarebel wrote: »
    Hi Rebel Heart, no wonder I couldn't pick that user name. Just came across your posting. I'm a great nephew of Vinny Byrne. My grandmother was his sister. I have seen many interviews over the years with Vinny. Even to this day he still comes up on RTE now and again. He lived in 1 Annes Lane off Grafton Street during the War of Independence. The house is still there today but is now a restaurant. He resigned his commision in 1924 after the Army Mutiny. He later worked in the P&T. He lived most his life in Drimnagh, where he become a founding member of the Drimnagh Credit Union. He married a second time after his wife died. He had a son and 2 daughters by his first wife, which all moved, funny enough to England. One still survives and lives just outside Merseyside. She is in her 80's now. He later moved to Artane where I live myself, just up the road from him. He died in 1992 at the great age of 92. It took him many years to talk to the family about what he was envolved with. In a meeting of the 16-21 club, which was made up of members of the Old IRA, the surviving members of the squad took a vote to see who would do it all again if they had to. Vinny was the only one who said yes. He was that much of a hard liner. He became the chairman of the 16-21 club. I hope this gives you some insight into Vinny and if you would like to know any thing else about him please feel free to ask.

    Hi, Vinny is my grandfathers 1st cousin. I am trying to put a book together regarding our family history, which I am sure you have heard an awful lot about. Its gas cause were related..Lots of Byrnes. Quick question did you ever hear of Charlie downey? He was extremely involved in the troubles, but his history is hidden cause of secrecy reasons if you know what I mean!!

    Regards
    Patrick Byrne


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  • #12
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Hi Patrick, you might find this interesting in your research :

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056269449

    http://www.militaria-archive.com/independence/vinny-byrne.html


  • #13
    kja1888
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭kja1888


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Good guess, Marchdub. I just checked it out on Youtube and the entire documentary appears to be there. The relevant section is here, beginning at 2.47.

    However, Vinny Byrne appears in only one scene here. In the documentary I'm thinking of he appears for much longer.

    Any other documentary names, anybody?

    I think the one you're after was the series fronted by Robert Kee - including the famous quote "I said may The Lord have mercy on your soul and I shot him".

    I can't remenber the exact name of the series, but I think it was broadcast in the early eighties.


  • #14
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,382 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    MarchDub wrote: »
    I just checked through my own videos and found an interview with Vinny Byrne in the RTE production "The Shadow of Bealnablath". It was produced in 1988. They have an interview with him and also they bring him to the house where the killings took place and have him walk in to the room and describe what happened.

    I think I saw that documentary, was Eoghan Harris interviewed in it?


  • #15
    Paddy De Plasterer
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭Paddy De Plasterer


    Not all the Cairo gang were spies, that is a myth-some of them were just civil sevants. Some of them were shot in front of wives and children, one such wife who was pregnant had a miscarriage that day and died a few days later. Sean Lemass shot a person that day as well, but never owned up to it. I remember Byrne saying "May the Lord have mercy on your soul". I suppose that gave him forgiveness in the sight of his God ?


  • #16
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Here is what Michael Collins had to say about this event :

    "I have proof enough to assure myself of the atrocities which this gang of spies and informers have committed. Perjury and torture are words too easily known to them. If I had a second motive it was no more than a feeling such as I would have for a dangerous reptile. By their destruction the very air is made sweeter. That should be the future's judgement on this particular event. For myself my conscience is clear. There is no crime in detecting in wartime the spy and the informer. They have destroyed without trial. I have paid them back in their own coin."


  • #17
    Paddy De Plasterer
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭Paddy De Plasterer


    Collins got much the same fate at Bealnablath from his erstwhile fellow murderous thugs.


  • #18
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Paddy De Plasterer - it seems like you have little interest other than stirring it up in this thread.
    If you're going to post, try and be less in your face.


  • #19
    Paddy De Plasterer
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭Paddy De Plasterer


    Dades wrote: »
    Paddy De Plasterer - it seems like you have little interest other than stirring it up in this thread.
    If you're going to post, try and be less in your face.

    in other words, dont go against the grain,is that right. and a warning !


  • #20
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »
    Collins got much the same fate at Bealnablath from his erstwhile fellow murderous thugs.
    Are those who kill in a conflict only "murderous thugs" when their in the IRA ? Surely if "murderous thugs" annex a country and hold it through force, those who take up arms against them cannot be "murderous thugs" ?


  • #21
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »
    in other words, dont go against the grain,is that right. and a warning !

    Maybe if you gave some original sources for your statements and not just proffer your own opinion it might be better. Historical analysis has to be based on source material - not just "I think this happened" or "this is what it seems to me" and emotive language type of statements without any evidence supplied.


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  • #22
    Paddy De Plasterer
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭Paddy De Plasterer


    Was Collins not killed at Bealnablath his former coplleagues ? Me thought he was, hardly source material needed for that !


  • #23
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,382 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »
    Was Collins not killed at Bealnablath his former coplleagues ? Me thought he was, hardly source material needed for that !

    Calling them murderous thugs seems like provocative language however.


  • #24
    Paddy De Plasterer
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭Paddy De Plasterer


    Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »
    Calling them murderous thugs seems like provocative language however.

    well what is anybody who kills, I think DeValera was behind it ?


  • #25
    V480
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭V480


    Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »
    well what is anybody who kills, I think DeValera was behind it ?

    This was an interesting topic and a good thread until you got involved.


  • #26
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »
    well what is anybody who kills, I think DeValera was behind it ?
    Last chance to be constructive, Paddy.

    I have no issue banning you for trolling if I think that's what you're at here.


  • #27
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »
    well what is anybody who kills, I think DeValera was behind it ?
    That Michael Collins film has a lot to answer for!!


  • #28
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Some good history stuff here, That Vinny Brown was an awesome man, Im going to try find out more about him.


  • #29
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,382 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    That Michael Collins film has a lot to answer for!!

    Don't get me started on it. Full of inaccuracies.


  • #30
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    That Michael Collins film has a lot to answer for!!

    Yes - My sentiment exactly! This is where the "I think" brigade come in. Fact is they don't think - the ideas have been implanted from some random inaccurate source.


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  • #31
    franklyon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 617 ✭✭✭franklyon


    Excellent thread, apart from the last page obviously, The Cairo gang were all ex military with the exception of one man a RIC officer.
    None of them were civil servants 'just doing their job' types. Michael Collins, himself an ex civil servant would not have ordered their execution unless it was completely necessary, In one fell swoop he put out the eyes of the British empire.
    The comment about 'murderous thugs' I won't even justify with an answer.


  • #32
    Paddy De Plasterer
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭Paddy De Plasterer


    Dades wrote: »
    Last chance to be constructive, Paddy.

    I have no issue banning you for trolling if I think that's what you're at here.

    Is "trolling" stating one's firm beliefs and not swimming with the tide ?


  • #33
    Paddy De Plasterer
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭Paddy De Plasterer


    charlemont wrote: »
    Some good history stuff here, That Vinny Brown was an awesome man, Im going to try find out more about him.

    i agree with you.


  • #34
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Just met a relative of Vinny Byrne's this week so did a bit more searching.

    This is very similar to the interview in question, although I do recall Byrne's interview being longer. This was made by Colm Connolly, apparently in 1989, which would be around the time the documentary I'm thinking of was made:



    (Starts at 3.25; Vinny starts talking at 3.31: "You two men have been sentenced to death and I'm coming here to carry out that sentence. May the Lord have mercy on your souls.")

    I think Judgement Day's "I plugged him" could be the interview. Anybody know what the documentary's name was in which Byrne said that?


  • #35
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Just met a relative of Vinny Byrne's this week so did a bit more searching.

    This is very similar to the interview in question, although I do recall Byrne's interview being longer. This was made by Colm Connolly, apparently in 1989, which would be around the time the documentary I'm thinking of was made:



    (Starts at 3.25; Vinny starts talking at 3.31: "You two men have been sentenced to death and I'm coming here to carry out that sentence. May the Lord have mercy on your souls.")

    I think Judgement Day's "I plugged him" could be the interview. Anybody know what the documentary's name was in which Byrne said that?

    Yes - it's the documentary that I mentioned in post #5 above -

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66857220&postcount=5

    If you look at the top of your video clip you can actually see the name 'The Shadow of Beal na Blath' which was the title of the Documentary. I have an old video copy of it and it was made by RTE in 1988 and Vinny Byrne is interviewed. It's an excellent doc but sadly not available on CD ASAIK.


  • #36
    Danno33
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Danno33


    Would anyone be able to put me in touch with the family of Liam Daly brother of Sean Daly who was in the Cairo Gang. I am specifically looking for accounts of Liam Daly's actions during the Easter Rising and photographs of the man himself for a new book I am researching at present. Any help would be appreciated and acknowledged.


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  • #37
    kabakuyu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,550 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    franklyon wrote: »
    Excellent thread, apart from the last page obviously, The Cairo gang were all ex military with the exception of one man a RIC officer.
    None of them were civil servants 'just doing their job' types. Michael Collins, himself an ex civil servant would not have ordered their execution unless it was completely necessary, In one fell swoop he put out the eyes of the British empire.
    The comment about 'murderous thugs' I won't even justify with an answer.

    Recent research sheds new light on this event.

    http://www.cairogang.com/murdered-men/mccormack.html


  • #38
    Be like Nutella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Be like Nutella


    Cheers to all for all the info and links etc fascinating ... I knew my dads uncle Frank had been active in some way with Collins back then when he was just a boy really.. I never knew until now that he was part of the original Twelve Apostles .... I'm no Irish history expert but it seems from what I've read here that they were basically assassins, doing Collins bidding... Frank Bolster could have only been about bloody fifteen or something which is mad... He was my dads uncle... Me grandad Alex's brother... I remember as a kid I heard an auntie of mine recounting a story about Franks little sibling sister or brother I can't remember anyway they found Frank's gun in a wardrobe and was literally pulling back the hammer when Frank came home and freaked out and bate them round for it. That's my only memory of a conversation had about him apart from something about his drawings possibly in some jail somewhere and the possibility of him being in some old footage holding Collins coffin with others... could be at the end of the apparently not so factual Collins movie during the credits maybe. Anyway that's my two cents... So they killed fourteen lads on bloody Sunday which resulted in twelve dead in croker which seems to have precipitated the beginning of the end of that level of warfare or reasoning to that effect... That's what I got anyway... Very hard to call one side murderous or thugs etc at that stage ... Far too complex and political and all that.... Impossible to simplify... These guys as young as they may have been... Just boys in some cases... believed in what they were doing to the core... It's never great to premeditatively kill a man in cold blood which is absolutely what they did as the Brits had done to them 'in their own coin' but logic and rationality are the luxuries we have now in our lovely (be it feckin broke to fcuk) republic in which we reside while arguing fascinating history on boards.ie

    Wonder what else I can find bout Frank.


  • #39
    Albie
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭Albie


    Greetings, Be LIke Nutella. Just came across your post re your great-uncle Frank Bolster. I am currently researching my antecedents in the Mallow area and wondered where his family came from. I can't find any Frank Bolsters in the 1901/11 census records. Would you be willing to pass on a little more info about him. What happened to him after the treaty? When did he pass on? Seems to have lived an interesting life and been involved in significant events during that period.


  • #40
    ParsleyQueen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31 ✭ParsleyQueen


    This may be a separate thread, so I apologize if this isn't proper, but since the squad is being discussed....

    I've always been fascinated about the extreme motivation the members of the squad must have had do these face-to-face killings. My understanding is that they were all pretty much "regular guys".

    I know that Collins was a member of the IRB and took an oath to use whatever means possible to free Ireland from English occupation, which I'm assuming, he was acting upon. Were the members of the squad also IRB men, and would that have been their motivation as well to do such extreme things?


  • #41
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    ParsleyQueen wrote: »
    This may be a separate thread, so I apologize if this isn't proper, but since the squad is being discussed....

    I've always been fascinated about the extreme motivation the members of the squad must have had do these face-to-face killings. My understanding is that they were all pretty much "regular guys".

    I know that Collins was a member of the IRB and took an oath to use whatever means possible to free Ireland from English occupation, which I'm assuming, he was acting upon. Were the members of the squad also IRB men, and would that have been their motivation as well to do such extreme things?

    Several of the Squad gave statements to the Bureau of Military History, Vinny Byrne, Bernard Byrne, Charlie Dalton etc. Have a look through those for interest. I have no doubt that a lot of them were also IRB


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  • #42
    ciarriaithuaidh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭ciarriaithuaidh


    Great thread apart from the odd idiotic comment.

    There IS a serious debate to be had around the morality/justification of actions undertaken in time of war, even in the midst of the struggle for independence, in this case our own.

    There are many popular and widely lauded (and derided by many also) "columnists" and "commentators" who would regularly denounce the likes of Dan Breen, Tom Barry and others for example. Now I'm no rabid republican, nor do I know what these people were like apart from what I have read about them..but surely it's a fact that without men like these we would not have got to a position where we could become independent?
    They killed people, yes..and there was undoubtedly some killings which were unjustified.
    What I can't understand though is that when Eoghan Harris or someone keeps banging on about the IRA in Cork killing protestants (which did happen and some of these fall into the category I mentioned above no doubt) for example and goes so far as to label people a murderer or terrorist..but fails to mention facts like, the British burning most of Cork City, murdering civilians in their homes (like the Lord Mayor of Irelands second largest city) and on roadsides, torturing and extra judicial execution of suspected or confirmed IRA men, burning homes/looting/destruction of property of real or suspected IRA men or sympathisers even...etc etc.

    To me, when I hear stories like Vinny Byrne's or Dave Neligan's for example, the main thing I think of is how unbelievably brave they were..and how grateful we should be to them for that bravery. I have many times tried to imagine what I would have done if I was living back in those times. Part of me would like to think I would have been able to be as active as those men I've mentioned above..but who knows, maybe I would have had a comfortable government job or other post and not wanted to jeapordise it or my families safety by getting involved in the independence struggle. Some people took this line no doubt, just as others in the same position made the opposite decision and risked everything for what they believed in and for their country and its future generations. Some had nothing to risk but their own lives and did so. Vinny Byrne was one of them, there were many others. Without them, we might all be posting on a sub-forum of boards.co.uk!


  • #43
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    One thing we tend to for get is the idealism and dreams that these men and women had when they took up arms... My granduncle was an ASU member and spend most of the war on the run. In old age it was his habit to sit outside his house in the village where he lived watching the world go by. On election day, if you passed by him, he was sure to enquire if you had voted yet and if you said no... you were sure to receive a lecture which always ended the same "I don't care how you vote, but vote! Men and women died to earn you that right"


  • #44
    karenconneely
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭karenconneely


    Hi heartofarebel
    heartofarebel wrote: »
    I hope this gives you some insight into Vinny and if you would like to know any thing else about him please feel free to ask.

    My father is currently researching the war of independence and is curious to know of the exact whereabouts of the arms dump that 'the squad' used (and that Vinny mentioned in a statement, held in the Bureau of Military History).
    The dump mentioned is on modern day Wolfe Tone St (I think it was Stafford St in those days) and fronting onto Abbey St. There are only a few buildings that fit this description, and my father is curious to know exactly which one it was.
    I would be very interested to hear from you, on behalf of my father (who in his late 60s - isnt the technologically savant type!)
    my email is karenconneely @ gmail.com should you wish to contact me in a private forum.


  • #45
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Chloekennedy14 wrote: »
    Hi, I'm thinking of doing my history research project for my leaving cert on Vincent Byrne!

    Chloe to be honest maybe you should consider choosing a more appropriate topic.


  • #46
    BalcombeSt4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,806 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    I think he's one of the biggest hypocrites the IRA has ever had. Saying the PIRA had "ruined the name of the IRA, they should never have been allowed to call themselves that.

    This coming from a man who shot unarmed people without thinking twice about it. At least the likes of Brendan Hughes engaged the British Army (not policemen) in open gun battles. Did Vinny even fire a shot against an armed British soldier?

    I think both IRA's have a good case to make for engaging in armed struggle but the one of the 1969 - 1998 has a much better morale case to make for taking up arms against a state hostile to them and out to oppress them and thier people.


  • #47
    Tiger100
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭Tiger100


    BalcombeSt4 wrote: »
    I think he's one of the biggest hypocrites the IRA has ever had. Saying the PIRA had "ruined the name of the IRA, they should never have been allowed to call themselves that.

    This coming from a man who shot unarmed people without thinking twice about it. At least the likes of Brendan Hughes engaged the British Army (not policemen) in open gun battles. Did Vinny even fire a shot against an armed British soldier?

    I think both IRA's have a good case to make for engaging in armed struggle but the one of the 1969 - 1998 has a much better morale case to make for taking up arms against a state hostile to them and out to oppress them and thier people.

    Hi Balcombe, just to answer your question Vinnie took part in the Lord French Ambush at the Halfway House he engaged with British Forces there also the Custom House he fought against the auxies. He also was out in 1916 ( I don`t know if he seen action).Not getting into an arguement just answering your question.


  • #48
    BalcombeSt4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,806 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Tiger100 wrote: »
    Hi Balcombe, just to answer your question Vinnie took part in the Lord French Ambush at the Halfway House he engaged with British Forces there also the Custom House he fought against the auxies. He also was out in 1916 ( I don`t know if he seen action).Not getting into an arguement just answering your question.

    Thanks for the reply.

    I think according to himself he didn't do a whole during the Rising.

    The burning of the Customs House even though they carried out their objective successfully was madness. How many people does it take to light a match? I can see why Collins got so pissed about this when Dev proposed it. 10 men would have been enough for the job never mind 100+


  • #49
    Tiger100
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭Tiger100


    BalcombeSt4 wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply.

    I think according to himself he didn't do a whole during the Rising.

    The burning of the Customs House even though they carried out their objective successfully was madness. How many people does it take to light a match? I can see why Collins got so pissed about this when Dev proposed it. 10 men would have been enough for the job never mind 100+


    He was only a kid during the Rising, so that explains that.

    The Custom House is a huge Building, I think the way it worked The ASU men where there to protect the men burning the building, the Squad held up the workers, visitors etc in the building, so there was about 50 to 60 2nd Battalion men burning it,Its a huge building so it needed at least that many to do it. They where never expecting the Auxies to turn up so early in the operation & with armoured cars ! I often wonder what difference a few snipers with 303`s could had made on roof tops to the operation & cutting down the amount of men captured.


  • #50
    BalcombeSt4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,806 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Tiger100 wrote: »
    He was only a kid during the Rising, so that explains that.

    The Custom House is a huge Building, I think the way it worked The ASU men where there to protect the men burning the building, the Squad held up the workers, visitors etc in the building, so there was about 50 to 60 2nd Battalion men burning it,Its a huge building so it needed at least that many to do it. They where never expecting the Auxies to turn up so early in the operation & with armoured cars ! I often wonder what difference a few snipers with 303`s could had made on roof tops to the operation & cutting down the amount of men captured.

    But didn't they attack it during the day because Dev wanted a spectaculor show of force to reinforce the image of a Irish Army defending an Irish state to the public?

    Surely they could have used a lot less men at night when nobody was around.

    It was really a more dangerous propaganda stunt (granted it worked at a high cost) rather than a military operation. From what I'm aware no British force were killed during the exchange of gunfire the IRA was so badly armed.


  • #51
    Tiger100
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭Tiger100


    BalcombeSt4 wrote: »
    But didn't they attack it during the day because Dev wanted a spectaculor show of force to reinforce the image of a Irish Army defending an Irish state to the public?

    Surely they could have used a lot less men at night when nobody was around.

    It was really a more dangerous propaganda stunt (granted it worked at a high cost) rather than a military operation.

    The Curfew killed the idea of attacking at night, It was done to burn the tax papers in particular the arrears papers ! It cost the British a fortune. From the Irish view it took out about 1/3 of the Squad & about 2/3 of the ASU.The rest of the men captured where part time IRA men, some had little or no experiance of warfare before the Custom House. It was not the disaster its made out to be.In fact by July the IRA in Dublin where not running out of men or guns but bullets !

    We have a small blog we are working on telling the stories of the men involved & some of the stranger parts of the burning !

    Sorry I should have said your correct, no British where killed, at least 3 where put out of action & sent home & a few more where injured. Hard to fight armoured cars with .45 & .38 small arms.


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