Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

nowecant · 07-03-2014 3:52pm

Seems like the best place to me

TheBandicoot · 07-03-2014 3:59pm

What kind of content is needed in a submission? Can you just say "I think you should build this stop, it would be very useful." and be done with it?

Sam Russell · 07-03-2014 7:40pm

I was looking at the plans for the Luas extension and noticed the connection to the red line.

Why does the east-bound line (heading to the point) connect backwards to the (south-bound) Marlborough line? Surely, the tram is going the wrong way at one end or the other - I would have thought it would be the west bound line (from the Point) that would connect to the Marlborough line.

Perhaps I am wrong, but it does look odd.

D.L.R. · 07-03-2014 9:15pm

lxflyer wrote: »

After much hunting, I finally found the plans for the northbound stop on Dawson Steeet that are currently out on public consultation.

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/about/public-consultation/dawson-northbound-stop-proposal/

Hang on let me get this straight... so they've suggested building the Northbound platform opposite the southbound. Which makes perfect sense.

So
1)what was the northbound location they refused?
2)why didn't they have it in this new location to begin with??

well I suppose you can't have a major irish infrastructure project without at least a bit of daftness.

Telchak · 07-03-2014 10:12pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

So
1)what was the northbound location they refused?
2)why didn't they have it in this new location to begin with??

I presume the original idea of having the North and Southbound stops at different parts of the street was to allow overtaking when a Luas was stopped.

AngryLips · 07-03-2014 11:29pm

I thought the original northbound stop was going to be an island stop in the middle of the street? Isn't that the reason it was rejected to begin with because it was felt that the usage at this stop would exceed capacity and force people into the street and tram tracks? This new proposal involves the northbound line changing lanes, why don't they just place the northbound stop round the corner on Nassau street instead where it will naturally meet the street curb anyway?

LXFlyer · 07-03-2014 11:37pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was looking at the plans for the Luas extension and noticed the connection to the red line.

Why does the east-bound line (heading to the point) connect backwards to the (south-bound) Marlborough line? Surely, the tram is going the wrong way at one end or the other - I would have thought it would be the west bound line (from the Point) that would connect to the Marlborough line.

Perhaps I am wrong, but it does look odd.

Quite simply, there was insufficient space for a connection from the westbound line to the southbound. So instead it will have to be from the eastbound line - the tram will head east across the southbound line, stop, driver would switch ends and then head onto the southbound line.

The connections are purely for out of service movements for transfer reasons.

monument · 08-03-2014 7:17pm

AngryLips wrote: »

I thought the original northbound stop was going to be an island stop in the middle of the street? Isn't that the reason it was rejected to begin with because it was felt that the usage at this stop would exceed capacity and force people into the street and tram tracks? This new proposal involves the northbound line changing lanes, why don't they just place the northbound stop round the corner on Nassau street instead where it will naturally meet the street curb anyway?

Footpath too narrow and busy.

nowecant · 12-03-2014 12:55pm

They have started some of the tree removal on Dawson Street and College Green. I also seen some of the first tracks have been laid on Hawkins Street as a continuation of what was put down on the new Rosie Hackett Bridge. I believe they had already removed the services from here when they were putting in the bridge footings.

Telchak · 02-05-2014 9:52am

Scary picture! Hope care is taken reinstating these at the end of construction

Five Lamps · 02-05-2014 10:45am

Hopefully it won't be with cheap Chinese granite either.

Five Lamps · 02-05-2014 10:53am

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was looking at the plans for the Luas extension and noticed the connection to the red line.

Why does the east-bound line (heading to the point) connect backwards to the (south-bound) Marlborough line? Surely, the tram is going the wrong way at one end or the other - I would have thought it would be the west bound line (from the Point) that would connect to the Marlborough line.

Perhaps I am wrong, but it does look odd.

It's clear from the design that these connections are only to facilitate non-passenger movement of trams.

So far as I can see the only practical routes other than end to end operation of each line are:

A northbound green line tram could do a loop of the city centre and head back south. A southbound tram couldn't without switching at a crossover.

A green line tram could go west onto the red line but returning would require a manoeuvre at Abbey st.

In reality, I don't see anything other than north-south and east-west running and the famous "connection" that everyone was looking for will only for shunting trams from line to the other when needed.

LXFlyer · 02-05-2014 11:20am

There will not be inter-line running. The points are purely to facilitate transfers between the lines where necessary, but will not be used in the normal course of operations.

There was never a plan for services to operate from the Red to the Green Line or v.v.

From what I gather the plan for the extended Green Line is for trams to operate either Brides Glen-Parnell Street or Sandyford-Broombridge.

nowecant · 02-05-2014 3:28pm

Telchak wrote: »

Scary picture! Hope care is taken reinstating these at the end of construction

Which side of the street are the trams running along here? Will they be sourcing more granite of a similar quality to fill in any gaps.

Even better yet it would be great if they would source similar granite for the entire stretch on both side of the street along here and remove most of the ugly street furniture. It would be a great place have this older paving.

I don't suppose there are any images of what this area is meant to look like after?

donvito99 · 02-05-2014 6:07pm

Any fúck up in relation to that paving would have me out on the streets. I've heard stories (possibly on here) that some Corpo workers would have driveways/patios at their homes built using these quintessential paving stones.

Even better yet it would be great if they would source similar granite for the entire stretch on both side of the street along here and remove most of the ugly street furniture.

+1. If it can be sourced subject to EU tendering rules it would be an excellent and refreshingly unique (we seem to get last decade's UK paving and street furniture) space for the capital.

Pete_Cavan · 03-05-2014 1:12pm

nowecant wrote: »

Even better yet it would be great if they would source similar granite for the entire stretch on both side of the street along here and remove most of the ugly street furniture. It would be a great place have this older paving.

There are bits and pieces of similar old paving in scattered around the city, even Dorset Street has a decent number of old slabs although its pavements is mainly a mix of various slabs from the last 20 years and tarmac in places. If such slabs from around the city were removed and consolidated in College Green it would really improve the feel of the place. Having small isolated areas of these slabs doesnt do justice to the slabs, they should be brought together to create one large high quality public space.

nokia69 · 03-05-2014 10:16pm

where did the old granite paving come from

its the best looking paving stone in the city, I wish all the city footpaths were done in it

most of the modern stuff is rank

monument · 03-05-2014 11:47pm

nowecant wrote: »

Which side of the street are the trams running along here?

Both sides. Two sets of tracks.

Boscod · 04-05-2014 10:12am

nokia69 wrote: »

where did the old granite paving come from

its the best looking paving stone in the city, I wish all the city footpaths were done in it

most of the modern stuff is rank

It came from quarrys in the Dublin / Wicklow mountains, Barnacullia, Ballyedmonduff, Ballynockan etc....still plenty of it in situ if they want it.

superelliptic · 09-05-2014 4:16pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There are bits and pieces of similar old paving in scattered around the city, even Dorset Street has a decent number of old slabs although its pavements is mainly a mix of various slabs from the last 20 years and tarmac in places. If such slabs from around the city were removed and consolidated in College Green it would really improve the feel of the place. Having small isolated areas of these slabs doesnt do justice to the slabs, they should be brought together to create one large high quality public space.

Really like this idea. But why consolidate them when we can just mine more from outside Avoca. Also would love to see some streets (some of the lesser used ones like lanes etc.) returned to cobble stone. There are a few streets of Cobble on the north side near the old market and other places that look great.

But man I hate that grey, dull-as-dishwater patio slab crap they have dumped all over grafton street....

L1011 · 09-05-2014 4:52pm

They let the Luas and all the various services (Eircom, ESB, etc) absolutely destroy the cohesiveness of the cobbles around a lot of the docks area. Castleforbes Road in particular is a disgrace.

stop · 10-05-2014 9:57am

I had a look at the slabs as they were being removed. They took care not to have the slabs touching while stacked (wood on between them), and each slab was given an ID code. One would assume they are intending on putting each slab back precisely where it was.

nowecant · 10-05-2014 12:47pm

superelliptic wrote: »

But man I hate that grey, dull-as-dishwater patio slab crap they have dumped all over grafton street....

Im reserving judgement on the paving until its finished, but i would tend to agree with you, its not looking great. the paving at the edges is not too bad, a much warmer looking stone.

The street furniture on the other hand is an abomination. Is the entire 'Grafton Street' corner to be done in the same manner?

HeidiHeidi · 10-05-2014 8:05pm

stop wrote: »

I had a look at the slabs as they were being removed. They took care not to have the slabs touching while stacked (wood on between them), and each slab was given an ID code. One would assume they are intending on putting each slab back precisely where it was.

I admire their intent, but the worn-out cynic in me says that for one reason or another this will never happen, and that paving will either be lost or destroyed, or put back piecemeal.

I really, truly hope I'm wrong.

FreudianSlippers · 11-05-2014 11:57am

nowecant wrote: »

Im reserving judgement on the paving until its finished, but i would tend to agree with you, its not looking great. the paving at the edges is not too bad, a much warmer looking stone.

The street furniture on the other hand is an abomination. Is the entire 'Grafton Street' corner to be done in the same manner?

I was in Henry Street yesterday and I'm actually amazed that the paving and furniture is actually miles better than the crap they used on Grafton Street. Grafton Street has lost all of its charm.

Telchak · 11-05-2014 1:11pm

nowecant wrote: »

The street furniture on the other hand is an abomination. Is the entire 'Grafton Street' corner to be done in the same manner?

As far as I'm aware the current street furniture is temporary, and they intend to replace all of it, as well as have art installations that function as furniture in certain locations.

FreudianSlippers · 11-05-2014 1:39pm

The paving is still god awful though

AngryLips · 11-05-2014 11:39pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The paving is still god awful though

I quite like it. It's a massive improvement on what was there before.

bonerjams03 · 12-05-2014 7:32pm

I really don't understand the animosity towards the paving on Grafton Street, particularly when it comes to people complaining that it's not red and 'more grey'. What colour is Talbot Street's paving? Red - but Talbot street is a kip regardless. The previous paving was cheap and ugly. It being red did not make up for that.

I think the new paving will look good once finished and I already do see like the stretches that are there, though I wish it was the shade of stone they've used in the borders - the sandstone(?).

nowecant · 15-05-2014 3:22pm

Does anyone know what type of paving they plan on using in Stephens Green along the Luas Lines? Is it the same as what they are using along Grafton Street?

FreudianSlippers · 15-05-2014 6:19pm

Are we getting any new trains, or do we have enough to ensure frequency isn't impacted by the increases route-length?

LXFlyer · 15-05-2014 7:41pm

There may well be enough trams given that frequencies were cut back a few years ago on both lines.

Sam Russell · 15-05-2014 7:51pm

lxflyer wrote: »

There may well be enough trams given that frequencies were cut back a few years ago on both lines.

Also they can tansfer the trams from one line to the other, so they can long and short trams can be moved about, and adjust capacity.

LXFlyer · 15-05-2014 8:50pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Also they can tansfer the trams from one line to the other, so they can long and short trams can be moved about, and adjust capacity.

They have already done that from time to time.

L1011 · 15-05-2014 9:01pm

Well, all the original trams from Green are on Red now - transferred via the back of a truck.

Jamie2k9 · 15-05-2014 10:37pm

lxflyer wrote: »

There may well be enough trams given that frequencies were cut back a few years ago on both lines.

There will need to be new ones soon enough. The Red line has just about enough currently to cater for demand.

Over 30 million last year on Luas, one would expect it to continue to rise by 2017, not to mention the extra numbers once BXD opens.

The cut in services is more less reversed at peak times and at other times.

No way will they cater for demand without extra stock as areas on the Green line will pick up once construction of housing increases again towards Brides Glen as with Saggart. Once you factor in the extended lines that opened, it take away the excess capacity there would of being with a service reduction,

Most recently in 2013:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/luas-at-capacity-and-needs-new-carriages-29482731.html

xper · 15-05-2014 10:48pm

lxflyer wrote: »

There may well be enough trams given that frequencies were cut back a few years ago on both lines.

The BXD project funding includes ten new trams. The new depot at Broombridge looks big enough to hold more than that if needed. I think the platform lengths also allow that the current trams can be lengthened another few metres too.

L1011 · 15-05-2014 11:12pm

Tender would want to go out soon - or was there an option clause in the last set?

grimbergen · 16-05-2014 12:50am

Don't know if it's just me but the green line seems particularly on the last few months during the morning rush hour. a good sign for the economy perhaps but uncomfortable for the passengers. Not sure if the frequency can be upped though - they're already coming every 3 months as it is

AngryLips · 16-05-2014 1:14am

My understanding is that services to Sandyford will continue to Broombridge and services to Cherrywood will loop back at Parnell street. I think if this is the plan then maybe they are underestimating the demand on the north side and very soon they will need to readjust frequencies to meet the extra passengers on the north side extension.

Aard · 16-05-2014 1:42am

It that's true, I think it's mad that you won't be able to ride the entire line Broombridge-Cherrywood without transferring.

Jamie2k9 · 16-05-2014 1:50am

Aard wrote: »

It that's true, I think it's mad that you won't be able to ride the entire line Broombridge-Cherrywood without transferring.

You can't do The Point to Saggart without transferring so don't see it being a major issue.

It makes sense to have split running as the busiest area of the lines require the greatest service and running the complete route means more trains required to provide the service.

The departures from Sandyford are much more frequent which means city center to Broombridge will have a very good service.

I don't think anybody can predict how it will play out, it's 3 years away and off peak at the very least this type of running will happen but it may well be end to end for many peak services.

Aard · 16-05-2014 2:12am

I understand why the split is needed, but why not have the following two services: Broombridge-Cherrywood, Parnell-Sandyford. The busier section of the line retains a higher-frequency service, while it is still possible to travel the entire line without transferring.

The red line services are not comparable as they involve branch lines.

AngryLips · 16-05-2014 10:11am

If it is true then what kind of passenger projections did they come up with that told them they only need reduced services Broombridge to city centre vs. Sandyford to city centre? I would've thought that demand would be very similar given both sections are inner city.

LXFlyer · 16-05-2014 10:36am

Aard wrote: »

I understand why the split is needed, but why not have the following two services: Broombridge-Cherrywood, Parnell-Sandyford. The busier section of the line retains a higher-frequency service, while it is still possible to travel the entire line without transferring.

The red line services are not comparable as they involve branch lines.

I really don't think it makes any difference - the numbers of people that will have to change will be minimal, and those that do can do so at Sandyford.

This way, the higher frequency service will operate between Broombridge and Sandyford, which I think would be more appropriate than from Parnell Street.

xper · 16-05-2014 2:07pm

AngryLips wrote: »

If it is true then what kind of passenger projections did they come up with that told them they only need reduced services Broombridge to city centre vs. Sandyford to city centre? I would've thought that demand would be very similar given both sections are inner city.

I can't recall the projected figures but the simple fact that the completed line will have 6 stops north of the city centre loop and 21 south of SSG (12 to Sandyford) will tell you that there is likely to be a massive imbalance in demand from either side.

Effectively splitting the operation into two services with large central overlap does make sense in that context. I wonder will the split be absolute and emphasised by branding the two services as different lines (e.g., Green: Bride's Glen - City Centre; Blue: Sandyford - Broombridge). Its commonplace in European cities with large tram networks for mutliple services (usually identified by letter or number rather than a colour!) to use the same track in the city centre, often on a loop too with different services joining and leaving the loop at different points.

A separate question:
Has anyone figured out what happens to the cross city service when O'Connell Street is closed for events such as the St Patrick's Day and Easter parades? Y'know, the kind of thing that large numbers of peopel might want to get to on public transport.
The southern section could revert to terminating at SSG but there doesn't seem to be a convenient turnback option for the northern section.

Oasis_Dublin · 16-05-2014 3:00pm

The demand on the Sandyford side includes Dundrum Town Centre, all the offices in the Sandyford Industrial Estate, as well as schools (Beniluds, Gonzaga, Muckross, Loretto on the Green). There's probably a similar population density between Ranelagh and the city centre as there is between town and Phibsboro, but the things mentioned in my first sentence make a difference.

L1011 · 16-05-2014 3:48pm

xper wrote: »

(usually identified by letter or number rather than a colour!)

We're not alone there though. Portland MAX has Green, Red, Blue and Yellow lines - including use of different colours to refer to different segments/services/spurs on the same core line(s) as we probably should.

AngryLips · 16-05-2014 3:50pm

MYOB wrote: »

We're not alone there though. Portland MAX has Green, Red, Blue and Yellow lines - including use of different colours to refer to different segments/services/spurs on the same core line(s) as we probably should.

I don't understand why more light rail services don't differentiate base on colour - it's so much easier for tourists to understand compared to numbered services.

Amirani · 16-05-2014 11:41pm

xper wrote: »

A separate question:
Has anyone figured out what happens to the cross city service when O'Connell Street is closed for events such as the St Patrick's Day and Easter parades? Y'know, the kind of thing that large numbers of peopel might want to get to on public transport.
The southern section could revert to terminating at SSG but there doesn't seem to be a convenient turnback option for the northern section.

Complete guess, but I'd say Brides Glen > Stephen's Green only, no Northside services.

Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

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