Is the dole too generous?

Permabear · 22-01-2009 1:55pm #1

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axer · 22-01-2009 2:20pm

The dole in Ireland should be 100 euro plus rent allowance. The figure should be set way below the baseline for paying tax so that if they go get a job for 250/300 a week they will not pay tax (or just pay a small amount) thus encouraging them to work. The problem many people have now is that working might only bring in an extra 50/100 euro a week more than the dole thus they decide to just stay on the dole instead and do a small bit of cash work on the side e.g. minding kids.

There is no justification for 204 euro a week (plus all the allowances) since it only encourages unemployment. If the dole was lowered as such I guarentee people would take up part time employment and work in fast food restaurants etc.

The question is can they get away with lowering the dole? Remember those that are on it have nothing else to do but protest etc (granted there are many on it that would be too lazy to even do that).

hobochris · 22-01-2009 2:24pm

The dole should be at a level where people on it can just about live. If they want more money then they should get a job.

Show_me_Safety · 22-01-2009 2:28pm

i also think that 100 euro a week plus rent allowance is appropriate.
200 a week is more than i live on a week.100euro does me...and i pay 20 a week for the dart!

ITDept · 22-01-2009 2:34pm

I would agree that 200 a week is a lot for doing nothing. It annoys me that there's no difference between being on the dole and being on FAS training; it also annoys me that you don't need to be looking for work to qualify for the dole - anyone can produce a few email PFOs.

Reduce the dole, keep the training allowance at 200 and demand that people bring in proper proof of looking for jobs or apply through a job centre system.

Irlbo · 22-01-2009 2:53pm

The answer is no,try and live on it for a week

deadhead13 · 22-01-2009 2:56pm

This has been done to death on another thread ie. "Is the dole to much"

Captain Chaos · 22-01-2009 2:59pm

Fully agree with Irlbo. I was on and still am on a fairly good wage but last November I was forced to go in the dole for 6 weeks and it was a shock. The dole is around a quarter of my take home pay and I still live at home. The dole for me was just enough to get from week to week. On a good week I'd have 10-20 left over for a drink or two at the weekend. Thankfully I'm back in my old job and never want to be in that position again. I don't how people can live on that especially if you are living on your own.

Permabear · 22-01-2009 3:06pm

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Spyral · 22-01-2009 3:08pm

If they want more money then they should get a job.

it takes money to get a job.. driving etc..

In addition I dont think I was treated as friendly as foreigners from a certain L-named country who were at the desk beside me today.

They're begrudging people while the Taoiseach gets paid more than Obama... nice one lads..

Then I'm told because I 'lived abroad' (went to uni actually to try to make something of myself) it would take THREE MONTHS to get any job seeking allowance..

This country is a joke, first opportunity I am away.

Permabear · 22-01-2009 3:22pm

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RiverWilde · 22-01-2009 4:10pm

No the dole isn't too much.
What is too much are the hoops honest people have to go through to get it.
When this is coupled with the daft waiting time it all adds up to yet another Joke.

Riv

speedboatchase · 22-01-2009 4:18pm

Never been on the dole, never want to. 200 is far too much, I reckon 100 a week and a lifetime limit you can get that amount on. If you go over the limit the government offers you three local jobs and if you don't take any then you do community service for for half the 100 a week. I got by in England for two years in college on around 80eur a week and the current dole is an absolute joke.

"it was a shock. The dole is around a quarter of my take home pay "

So you get 3200 after-tax a month on a regular basis? Lol boo fricking hoo

Raiser · 22-01-2009 5:15pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Which is preferable, to give our tax revenue to the British or the HSE?

- Tough call......

johnnyc · 22-01-2009 7:24pm

hobochris wrote: »

The dole should be at a level where people on it can just about live. If they want more money then they should get a job.

hobochris have you searched for a job recently? doubt you have

tapjlk6 · 23-01-2009 12:11am

Yes the dole is to much.
If your single and living away from home you get 204 plus rent allowance. more than enough.
Why do you think the Irish would not take the low paid jobs. 40 hours at 9 euro is 360 euro. Take your rent out of that.
Whos better off?
I think if the goverment want workers to take a reduction in wages then the dole should come down by the same amount

Godge · 23-01-2009 12:29am

Depends on whether you are asking the question from the viewpoint of an individual or of society?

An individual who is on the dole would probably conclude that it is not enough, as even people on high earnings look for more.

From a society's point of view, there are two questions to answer.

(1) does it provide an acceptable minimum level of comfort and living standards?
(2) does it encourage or discourage a return to work?

Too often, these two questions conflict. An adequate living standard may involve a payment so high as to discourage an unemployed person to obtain work. It is not easy to say whether 100, 200 or 300 euro is too much dole money.

eoghanmcdonnell · 23-01-2009 12:53am

I don't think it is too much, but i do think that the whole social welfare system needs to be reformed. As a previous post said, it generally takes money to get work so on paper, the dole is the right amount considering how expensive this country is. We also have very high taxes that allow us to pay out such welfare..

I needed to go on the dole after finishing college last year. You might have called me Mr. Dole. But was refused 3 times and gave up. I struggled to pay my rent and live through giving guitar lessons and delivering chipper while people who are just playing the system were living above the breadline. Luckily I got another job last November but it really opened my eyes to the state of the system. A total reform is needed, I don't know how or what kind of system but there has to be a better one. The amount of money it will free up can be put into the garda and health budgets so this country isn't completely ruined in the next few years. Rant over.

decies · 23-01-2009 1:01am

Perhaps if all ye people who think its to much lose your jobs, you might actually take off your rose tinted glasses.Have a bit of cop on :mad::mad::mad:.No wonder people will leave this country :rolleyes:

Permabear · 23-01-2009 1:28am

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Taxipete29 · 23-01-2009 2:01am

Fraud is the single biggest issue in regards to welfare payments.If this area was better policed and some real action taken against offenders it would free up more resources as another poster said.

The dole is not too generous, its just enough and for all those looking for it to be lowered you might stop to think that not one of you is immune from ever having to claim it in the current climate so I wouldnt be so quick to speak about a situation you obviously have no clue about.

Tony Broke · 23-01-2009 2:14am

It should be half minimum wage, what really sickens me is the amount of travellers on the dole :mad:

Not being racist or anything, but the amount of them on the dole is a disgrace.Know one ever brings this up, why?

If I had to put a figure on it, I would say 90% of them are on the dole.

TheNog · 23-01-2009 2:37am

I was on the dole twice, both in the 1990s so I can partly understand what it is like but just not what it is like to be on the dole if I had to pay two mortgages.

My 2c is the dole is too much. €100 a week would suffice along with rent/mortgage allowance. If ye have kids maybe an allowance of €20-30 a week for each child.

The social welfare system should be reformed so you dont have to wait 13 weeks (??) to get it. Any jobs applied for should be done through the welfare themselves. Cuts out the half arsed proof needed to stay on the dole.

I also think the childrens allowance should be reformed to include the first three children only. I you have any more kids after the third, you will have to finance that child yourself. This would be regardless if you are working or not. I'd even go to the extreme of placing a minimum age for claiming childrens allowance. Say 20yrs old before you are eligible to make a claim.

Taxipete29 · 23-01-2009 2:42am

TheNog wrote: »

I also think the childrens allowance should be reformed to include the first three children only. I you have any more kids after the third, you will have to finance that child yourself. This would be regardless if you are working or not. I'd even go to the extreme of placing a minimum age for claiming childrens allowance. Say 20yrs old before you are eligible to make a claim.

This makes no sense as the only ones who suffer are the kids themsleves. Why punish children for the actions of their parents

FreedomJoe · 23-01-2009 3:01am

The dole isnt the problem.

The problem is the lack of services and care for people on the dole.

Someone can be on the dole in this country and not actually see a government offical in relation to finding work!

The only thing required is for them to sign on once a month, and at Christmas time once over 2 months!

We need to introuduce a system for all people on the dole and not just new applicants where you are required to sign on every two weeks in a office where you meet with an offical wo asks you what you have been doing for work, what other jobs are available and what training they can offer.

If you fail to meet the requirments then you lose the dole.

A similar scheme to the UK.

But we also need to stop all these welfare payments to kids of foreign nationals who arent even in the country, first!

RiverWilde · 23-01-2009 3:27am

FreedomJoe wrote: »

We need to introuduce a system for all people on the dole and not just new applicants where you are required to sign on every two weeks in a office where you meet with an offical wo asks you what you have been doing for work, what other jobs are available and what training they can offer.

That would be a great idea. However, access to training in this country is so tightly regulated you'd be quicker getting an invite to the White House Christmas party.

If you want to go to college or train as anything you'll get F/all support from social welfare.

As it stands the system as it currently exists is as follows:

1: Here have your stipend.
2: Have you applied for a job recently?
3: If no: You're not getting your stipend.
4: If you don't like your stipend feel free to emigrate.

Riv

tallus · 23-01-2009 9:31am

Try paying a mortgage while on the dole. I was out of work and went on to a community employment scheme. I almost lost my house in the process.
I applied for a lot of jobs while on the dole and out of about 50 applications I got 3 returned answers.

Serenity Now! · 23-01-2009 10:20am

Why not review the other parts of the Social Welfare benefit system instead?
For instance, why does a double-earning couple in the 41% (+1% levy of course) tax bracket receive child benefit per child? Why should people already earning well qualify, without even a means test, for a benefit when they already have money to raise those children?

Macha · 23-01-2009 10:28am

eoghanmcdonnell wrote: »

We also have very high taxes that allow us to pay out such welfare..

We actually don't have high taxes when compared to the rest of the world. In addition, we have the lowest spending on social services per capita in Europe.

Tony Broke wrote: »

If I had to put a figure on it, I would say 90% of them are on the dole.

Can you back that up with a source?

One change I would make is in relation to people who work part-time and claim the dole. At the moment if you work one hour on one day, it's considered a full working day.And if you work for more than 3 days in a week, you can't claim for the other days.

So if you work 1 hour, 4 days/week, technically you cannot claim any dole. This results in people thinking (rightly) they're better off rejecting the part-time work and just going on the full dole. The aim should always be to encourage people to work instead of being on the dole. However, there's a fine line between achieving this aim and "punishing" people for being unemployed.

professore · 23-01-2009 10:29am

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

We actually have very low (direct) taxes in this country. I think there should be a distinction in payments beween people who do nothing (give them say 100 p.w.) and people who try to get a job or who were recently laid off, or are doing a training course, who should get the current payment.

professore · 23-01-2009 10:31am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Why not review the other parts of the Social Welfare benefit system instead?
For instance, why does a double-earning couple in the 41% (+1% levy of course) tax bracket receive child benefit per child? Why should people already earning well qualify, without even a means test, for a benefit when they already have money to raise those children?

Politically unpopular - btw I reckon it would cost more to adminster the means test. And I have 3 kids. Also the hoo-ha about the pensioners getting medical cards up to 700 pw :eek:

TheNog · 23-01-2009 10:33am

Taxipete29 wrote: »

This makes no sense as the only ones who suffer are the kids themsleves. Why punish children for the actions of their parents

Not trying to punish the kids at all, it is trying to make the parents more responsibile for their actions. If parents want to have 3 or more kids then those parents should be made finance those childrens future through either better paying jobs (scarce I know) rather than relying on the tax payers money.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Why not review the other parts of the Social Welfare benefit system instead?
For instance, why does a double-earning couple in the 41% (+1% levy of course) tax bracket receive child benefit per child? Why should people already earning well qualify, without even a means test, for a benefit when they already have money to raise those children?

That is very true but the problem now is parents see and use childrens allowance as an income so during the boom years they got mortgages, loans etc with the expectation the childrens allowance will help with bills, food etc.

axer · 23-01-2009 10:36am

tallus wrote: »

Try paying a mortgage while on the dole. I was out of work and went on to a community employment scheme. I almost lost my house in the process.
I applied for a lot of jobs while on the dole and out of about 50 applications I got 3 returned answers.

In fairness you should have taken out insurance with your mortgage which would have paid your mortgage whilst unemployed. Besides irish people have a fixation with purchasing houses when there is nothing wrong with renting and then you would have gotten rent allowance.

A person can live on 100pw along with rent allowance. It is meant to be a temporary measure to tie you over whilst you search for a job it is not meant to replace your income.

hobochris · 23-01-2009 10:38am

johnnyc wrote: »

hobochris have you searched for a job recently? doubt you have

No, But despite the current climate their still are jobs out there, just not the most desired jobs. I know this becuase people I know have recently gotten such jobs.

My point above is more so that the dole should be at a level were someone will take the hand of the employer offering a job.Pride is a terrible thing. Also I agree that wasters should be cut off from the dole(no free rides here), it should be for honest people only, not wasters and dole scammers. You should get the dole for so long and after that if you still haven't bothered to find a job or enter training its food stamps.

professore · 23-01-2009 10:43am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Why not review the other parts of the Social Welfare benefit system instead?
For instance, why does a double-earning couple in the 41% (+1% levy of course) tax bracket receive child benefit per child? Why should people already earning well qualify, without even a means test, for a benefit when they already have money to raise those children?

Why should a single person, living at home with their parents, not pay extra taxes to a family of 5 with a large mortgage and huge shopping bill creating jobs for the economy every week ? The former only has 1 person to support whereas the latter supports 5 while they pay pretty much the same taxes. The childrens allowance and a pathetic stay at home carer allowance that amounts to a few hundred a year are the only differences.

Serenity Now! · 23-01-2009 10:50am

professore wrote: »

Politically unpopular - btw I reckon it would cost more to adminster the means test. And I have 3 kids. Also the hoo-ha about the pensioners getting medical cards up to 700 pw :eek:

Politically unpopular? I don't doubt that. Ironic though that people who earn decent salaries AND receive this welfare handout just for having childrren will cry foul on govt wastage in other areas.

Why should a healthy earning couple receive money for nothing, especially in this current economic climate?
That child allowance to earning couples over a certain level should have been scrapped long ago.

Then again, this is the country where people want everything for nothing.

Volthar · 23-01-2009 11:00am

hobochris wrote: »

No, But despite the current climate their still are jobs out there, just not the most desired jobs. I know this becuase people I know have recently gotten such jobs.

My point above is more so that the dole should be at a level were someone will take the hand of the employer offering a job.Pride is a terrible thing. Also I agree that wasters should be cut off from the dole(no free rides here), it should be for honest people only, not wasters and dole scammers. You should get the dole for so long and after that if you still haven't bothered to find a job or enter training its food stamps.

In some countries you have to apply for jobs and go for job interviews several times a week then show a proof (like signed schedule) before you can collect your dole. Often there are couple of interviews a day so job seeking turns into real job

SW office will also search for a job for you and you can not refuse to go for job interviews they schedule for you. They will also ask recruiters for some feedback about your interviews (just to make sure that you are really trying to get a job). If you fail to attend particular number of interviews or they can prove that you are doing your best to not get a job you will loose your dole. The only problem with this system is HUGE bureaucracy and as result it causes increased expenses and possibility of corruption. My second thought is that maybe FAS and SW can join their forces and introduce similar system.

TheNog · 23-01-2009 11:00am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Politically unpopular? I don't doubt that. Ironic though that people who earn decent salaries AND receive this welfare handout just for having childrren will cry foul on govt wastage in other areas.

Why should a healthy earning couple receive money for nothing, especially in this current economic climate?
That child allowance to earning couples over a certain level should have been scrapped long ago.

Then again, this is the country where people want everything for nothing.

+ 1

No truer words said

Serenity Now! · 23-01-2009 11:03am

professore wrote: »

Why should a single person, living at home with their parents, not pay extra taxes to a family of 5 with a large mortgage and huge shopping bill creating jobs for the economy every week ? The former only has 1 person to support whereas the latter supports 5 while they pay pretty much the same taxes. The childrens allowance and a pathetic stay at home carer allowance that amounts to a few hundred a year are the only differences.

Example:
Married professional Couple.
He earns €45,000 gross pa.
She earns €40,000 gross pa.

Two kids (5 and 7yrs old). One of them in private schooling.
4-Bed House.
Two cars (08 and 06 reg).
Two vacation trips pa. One abroad. One in Ireland.

You think they should receive a welfare payment every month?

axer · 23-01-2009 11:08am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

You think they should receive a welfare payment every month?

They would receive Jobseekers benefit since you say they are working now. Job seekers allowance (dole) is means tested.

I think you forget that they pay tax too.

Serenity Now! · 23-01-2009 11:15am

axer wrote: »

They would receive Jobseekers benefit since you say they are working now. Job seekers allowance (dole) is means tested.

I think you forget that they pay tax too.

I was referring to child allowance being paid to a couple who are already of a standard of wealth well above the comfort zone.
And you say they qualify for a 'job seeker allowance' too???

axer · 23-01-2009 11:19am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

I was referring to child allowance being paid to a couple who are already of a standard of wealth well above the comfort zone.
And you say they qualify for a 'job seeker allowance' too???

If they become unemployed they would be entitled to job seekers allowance since they would be claiming from their prsi contributions.

I get the impression that you think this comfortable couple are just keeping all their money to themselves. Do you forget that they pay a nice tax contribution too and the amount they get in child allowance wouldn't be near what they pay in tax? Overall they are paying a positive amount to this country.

I would be more inclined to reward non-wasters for having children than lazy f'uckers who threat their children as income.

ionix5891 · 23-01-2009 11:31am

Yep they should get just enough to survive on beans and toast and noodles and buckfast so they have an incentive to find a job

I survived on above during college and it gave me incentive to study harder and work harder at part time job

Serenity Now! · 23-01-2009 11:59am

axer wrote: »

If they become unemployed they would be entitled to job seekers allowance since they would be claiming from their prsi contributions.

I get the impression that you think this comfortable couple are just keeping all their money to themselves. Do you forget that they pay a nice tax contribution too and the amount they get in child allowance wouldn't be near what they pay in tax? Overall they are paying a positive amount to this country.

I would be more inclined to reward non-wasters for having children than lazy f'uckers who threat their children as income.

This is just brilliant lol
They earn plenty. They are comfortable. All this after paying their tax contribution to the country's infrastructure. They are fine. They are actually wealthy.

This is wastage of money by giving welfare payments to people who do not need it.
You are trying to justify a welfare payment (yes, thats what it is at the end of the day) for having children to people who CAN ALREADY AFFORD TO HAVE CHILDREN.
And why? Because they pay taxes ??? A tax isn't a christmas savings club ffs.

Classic...:rolleyes:

Terra · 23-01-2009 12:21pm

I think there should be a rolling scale to solve this problem

For example...

If someone is made redundant then by all means the should receive enough dole too tie them over while working towards getting a new job. Maybe give a good incentive like 3 months tax free pay if you make a good effort and get yourself a job....

Proper proof should be provided on this course.

However if your a long term person on the job with no real intention of going for any job then the dole for these should be reduced too 100 euro or less.

If they want more then that they they can apply too do community work, as long as they contribute too society in some way.

AlekSmart · 23-01-2009 12:57pm

As the Nog sez:

Not trying to punish the kids at all, it is trying to make the parents more responsibile for their actions

Its not about a quantitive amount of money at all,it should be about this notion of "Responsibility" something which the current DSFA shies away from at every opportunity....as a direct result of its Political masters in Dàil Eìreann.

Whether it be Moral,Financial,Social or Personal,responsibility remains very visibly absent from a rapidly expanding chunk of modern Irish society

mikehn · 23-01-2009 12:57pm

Just been made redundant last week, no redundancy as with present company about a year. worked all my life, paid my taxes, wife, two kids, mortgage.
NO the dole should not be cut, whats needed here is a bit of thinking outside the box. its going to be rough trying to get a job but I think that everybody on the dole should have the oppertunity to work if only to preserve their self esteem,there are plenty of groups that could use a pool of skilled workers to carry out local improvements, help the eldery etc.
One big problem in this country is that people seem to have no sense of outrage,
a previous post mentioned NI residents using Southern addresses to claim dole, it could only happen in Ireland, any other country in Europe the phone would be picked up they would be stopped, same thing with nixers,black economy, people seem to think its ok to pull a stroke but long term its damaging ours kids future prospects.
We could have a great country here with a bit of an attitude shift, Ok the lead from the top aint great but maby this recession will focus peoples minds a bit.I can only hope that the present Gov. will realise that a good government leads by example and gets off its back side.
If only we had someone in the Obama mould that would have the courage to make unpopular decisions and the vision to see what needs to be done.
OK rant over.

tallus · 23-01-2009 8:20pm

axer wrote: »

In fairness you should have taken out insurance with your mortgage which would have paid your mortgage whilst unemployed. Besides irish people have a fixation with purchasing houses when there is nothing wrong with renting and then you would have gotten rent allowance.

A person can live on 100pw along with rent allowance. It is meant to be a temporary measure to tie you over whilst you search for a job it is not meant to replace your income.

I had insurance taken out previously to cover the eventuality of me not being able to pay the mortgage, but after having a road traffic accident I had to remortgage to make certain changes to my house and the insurance to cover payment was no longer available to me.
Not everybody out of a job lives in rented accommodation.
After starting back full time work last March 08 I have only recently caught up with mortgage/gas/electricity arrears.
I chose to buy my house because I didn't want to be paying dead money to someone else.
I'm 100% glad that I did too.

tallus · 23-01-2009 8:21pm

mikehn wrote: »

Just been made redundant last week, no redundancy as with present company about a year. worked all my life, paid my taxes, wife, two kids, mortgage.
NO the dole should not be cut, whats needed here is a bit of thinking outside the box. its going to be rough trying to get a job but I think that everybody on the dole should have the oppertunity to work if only to preserve their self esteem,there are plenty of groups that could use a pool of skilled workers to carry out local improvements, help the eldery etc.
One big problem in this country is that people seem to have no sense of outrage,
a previous post mentioned NI residents using Southern addresses to claim dole, it could only happen in Ireland, any other country in Europe the phone would be picked up they would be stopped, same thing with nixers,black economy, people seem to think its ok to pull a stroke but long term its damaging ours kids future prospects.
We could have a great country here with a bit of an attitude shift, Ok the lead from the top aint great but maby this recession will focus peoples minds a bit.I can only hope that the present Gov. will realise that a good government leads by example and gets off its back side.
If only we had someone in the Obama mould that would have the courage to make unpopular decisions and the vision to see what needs to be done.
OK rant over.

Best of luck getting a new job Mike, been there myself.

23-01-2009 8:55pm

I've lived on dole, without rent allowance.

200 euro dole
-
80 rent
-
50 food
-
70 going out
=
0

i was living like a king after college on dole. how can anyone say that it's not too much?

if I'd had rent allowance, about 140 would have been spent on drink or drugs cause 50 on food and 80 on rent is all you need.

oh well , okay · 23-01-2009 11:05pm

Haven't been on the dole in 15 yrs but here's my weekly expenses ......

car ins ..... €10pw
car tax ..... €10pw
petrol ..... €20pw need the car , I live in the country .
food ......... €50pw I gotta eat
electricity .. €15pw need lights and gotta wash me clothes
gas ........... €10pw need heat , hot water
coal etc ..... €15pw need more heat in the sitting room
b'band ....... €5pw need the internet to find a new job
home ph... . €10pw need the house phone to ring around for work
mobile ....... .€10pw need to be contactable
bin tag ....... €5pw gotta put out the trash
footie ..........€10pw have to pay to use the pitch

There's €170 without really thinking about it .

I'm left with €34 to pay a mortgage , cover any medical / dentist bills , service / repair the car , upkeep the house / garden and buy clothes .

I'd be living the life of Riley on the dole I tell ya !!

Is the dole too generous?

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