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Is it acceptable to use a fork with my right hand?

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    #32
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    JONJO THE MISER wrote: »
    Are people serious, i always use the fork in my right hand, never heard about this fork in a left hand stuff before.
    Must of missed that day at school.

    Yes quite serious.

    They don't usually teach it in schools though. It would be no harm to let children know that there are different codes of behaviour in different situations. I was taught how to enter a room and make a good first impression in school and from my parents and I'm eternally grateful. Were you mocking the idea of learning those social interaction skills in school? One of us observes them and the other didn't know they existed until now.

    I feel sorry when at a formal occasion I see a grown man who looks completely uncomfortable in his Sunday Best. Shuffling awkwardly, not knowing whether to make eye contact and offering a limp fish as a handshake as they grunt their name at you.

    If someone took that man aside, when he was in school, for even 20 minutes they could teach them how to behave in formal situations and how to know what's appropriate and it would stand to them for life. He wouldn't be any cleverer or a better person but he could be more relaxed and he could make sure he gives off a good first impression.

    Whether people like it or not we make decisions about people based on strange information. How they walk into a room, how they introduce themselves, how they groom and dress themselves, how they carry themselves, how they behave at the dining table, diction, accent, vocabulary. Some of these are logical and can genuinely tell you about a persons background or likely future behaviour, others are less informative, but they persist regardless.

    There are countless adages about making decisions about people in a very short time frame. The adage 'dont judge a book by it's cover' betrays the fact that people instinctively judge the book by the cover and we need to be reminded not to do so.

    It shouldn't be that surprising really.


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    #33
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Which hand for Spork or Foon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spork


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    #34
    Tarzana2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭Tarzana2


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    That's really interesting. I suppose it makes sense that these social rules would change, especially given the variation in cultural dining habits. Lots of cultures don't use knives and forks at all and some cultures in South East Asia use a fork and spoon so they must have totally different rules for eating with chopsticks or using their hands.

    Eye opener for me in this thread is that most posters don't even see cutlery use as part of table manners at all.

    How can you state this in the very same post in which you acknowledge that in some cultures, knives and forks aren't even used? In some cultures, hands are all that are used.

    Personally, I think there should be a relaxation of cutlery rules. Some food needs to be picked up using your fingers. The obvious is things like ribs, wing, lamb chops. But at home, my natural default for eating fish without sauce is to eat it with my hands. It just makes sense, as it's flaky and often bony. As long as finger bowls are provided, I don't see the issue.


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    #35
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Tarzana2 wrote: »
    How can you state this in the very same post in which you acknowledge that in some cultures, knives and forks aren't even used? In some cultures, hands are all that are used.

    Personally, I think there should be a relaxation of cutlery rules. Some food needs to be picked up using your fingers. The obvious is things like ribs, wing, lamb chops. But at home, my natural default for eating fish without sauce is to eat it with my hands. It just makes sense, as it's flaky and often bony. As long as finger bowls are provided, I don't see the issue.

    Either you misunderstood or I didn't make myself clear. We all understand that there are other cultures which observe other rules. Some of them have to have other rules for table manners because they use different tools for dining such as chopsticks or fingers. I though everybody knew cutlery was part of our set of table manners the same way chopstick etiquette is important in Japan and South East Asia.

    I don't have an opinion on whether those rules should be relaxed but I totally agree about eating with your hands when it's appropriate. One of my favourite dining experiences was in an Indian restaurant where everyone was expected to use their hands. One among us had recently been to India so she showed us the etiquette for eating with our hands. It's a lovely way to eat. A bit messy but it engages the sense of touch with the food and it added to the experience in my opinion.


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    #36
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    ...I feel sorry when at a formal occasion...

    Some people don't like formal situations, or formal clothes. They simply aren't interested. Its an anathema to them. They probably pity people who enjoy such things.


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    #37
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Eye opener for me in this thread is that most posters don't even see cutlery use as part of table manners at all.
    I only see people mentioning the left/right issue. Others, including myself have mentioned other manners/rules about cutlery, and I can understand the thinking/logic behind them.

    It is this specific rule that puzzles me why people would get upset or "not appreciate" seeing people doing something which to me seems utterly benign.

    As I said before I would consider it as weird as having an issue with chewing in an anticlockwise motion, if most did it clockwise. While I can see the logic behind other "rules" about the mouth, like talking with mouth open, slurping loudly, spitting etc.
    beauf wrote: »
    or is it about persecution about left handiness
    I thought it was obviously this, and why I mentioned to apply the same logic as you would pen holders. I have had numerous people ask if I was left handed when they saw me eat this way. Many left handed people do. On wiki it was talking of having the knife in your "dominant" hand. I never once got the impression that anybody thought there was an issue with it.

    I can fully understand why waiting staff lay tables that way, just like in exams your pencil pen might be on the right hand side.
    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yes quite serious.

    They don't usually teach it in schools though.
    They still do, unfortunately in some they even do it to the point of enforcing it. I thought this nonsense would have died out years ago, like you hear about nuns beating children to force them to use their left hands to write. It disgusts me to think this sort of thing still goes on.

    http://www.anythinglefthanded.co.uk/left-handed-eating.html#sthash.Ll4NjpNp.a71GkSqJ.dpbs
    Catherine originally posted a comment on our website saying:
    “My son (nearly 8), is mostly right-handed, but eats with his knife and fork the left-handed way. I have recently found out that they are forcing him to eat the ‘correct’ way at school meal times. I was shocked and outraged, but they claim that it is for his own good…. Do you have any evidence of this being harmful to a child (in the same way that forcing a change in writing handedness can be)? He complains of tiredness and headaches, and has started developing a stammer and tics. He is also highly uncoordinated and regularly spills food down clothes when eating this way. I want to force the school to stop, so need some supporting evidence. Please help!”


    Keith replied:
    The symptoms you mention ARE similar to those that can arise from changing writing hand and while I have not seen any research or evidence about changing eating hands I guess it comes to the same thing. It may also just be that he is stressed from being pressurised by his teachers and that is causing the problems rather than anything to do with brain functionâ€. I would definitely advise letting him eat whichever way seems natural to him. It will be very interesting to see if his symptoms go away when he is allowed to go back to eating his natural way.

    and we recently received a wonderful follow-up from Catherine:
    Thank you so much for emailing me. Since all this happened, we have told our son to eat with whichever hand he feels most comfortable holding his fork in, and his tics / stammer have all but gone. He is calm and unstressed now. However, the school are not happy about this and claim that eating with your cutlery the ‘right way round’ is part of their social development programme. We are actively trying to dispute this and any thoughts you have about this or any research or supporting evidence would be most welcome.

    We would be very interested in your experience of changing eating hands and any effect it had so please add your comments below.

    - See more at: http://www.anythinglefthanded.co.uk/left-handed-eating.html#sthash.Ll4NjpNp.a71GkSqJ.dpuf

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_against_left-handed_people#Forced_use_of_right_hand
    Forced use of right hand
    Due to cultural and social pressures, many left-handed children are encouraged or forced to write and perform other activities with their right hands. This conversion can cause multiple problems in the developing left-handed child, including learning disorders, dyslexia,[27] stuttering[28][29][30] and other speech disorders.

    Glad my parents never tried to put me through that ordeal.


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    #38
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    beauf wrote: »
    Some people don't like formal situations, or formal clothes. They simply aren't interested. Its an anathema to them. They probably pity people who enjoy such things.

    You're probably correct but it's hardly the point unless you can completely avoid formal situations for your entire life and never need to do anything you're not comfortable with.

    It's hardly an advantage to be clueless at a formal occasion/job interview/meeting in-laws/clients. The more perspective you have the more able you are to make decisions about whats appropriate. Wouldn't you agree?


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    #39
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    You're probably correct but it's hardly the point unless you can completely avoid formal situations for your entire life and never need to do anything you're not comfortable with.

    It's hardly an advantage to be clueless at a formal occasion/job interview/meeting in-laws/clients. The more perspective you have the more able you are to make decisions about whats appropriate. Wouldn't you agree?

    Why would all things uncomfortable be formal? That makes no sense.

    People do indeed choose to live their life with as little as formality as possible.

    Seems to assume (even discriminate) someone is clueless because they choose to something differently. Seems incredibly narrow minded.


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    #40
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    beauf wrote: »
    Why would all things uncomfortable be formal? That makes no sense.

    People do indeed choose to live their life with as little as formality as possible.

    Seems to assume (even discriminate) someone is clueless because they choose to something differently. Seems incredibly narrow minded.

    People can choose to live with as much or as little formality as they wish. It doesn't effect the point I made about it being an advantage to know whats appropriate in situations that you are going to have to take part in. I assume most people choose to have some degree of formality in their lives at some stage, due to career choices mainly. Maybe I'm wrong on that. If you have eradicated formality from your life then this whole discussion is purely academic to you.

    Hey maybe it is discriminatory and narrow minded, but that's how humans do it in real life. I don't know what you want me to tell you. It has ever been thus so I choose to try to be informed on whats most appropriate behaviour in a given situation.

    To address your grammar related snipe, well you see they were separate points, "... (1) avoid formal situations for your entire life and (2) never need to do anything you're not comfortable with."

    Maybe I should have used or instead of and. If its so important to you, you can research it and get back to me.

    I find a conversation has run it's course when one party decides to go down the pedantic grammar route rather than look for the actual meaning in whats being said. We should leave it there wouldn't you agree?


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    #41
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    You're probably correct but it's hardly the point unless you can completely avoid formal situations for your entire life and never need to do anything you're not comfortable with.

    It's hardly an advantage to be clueless at a formal occasion/job interview/meeting in-laws/clients. The more perspective you have the more able you are to make decisions about whats appropriate. Wouldn't you agree?

    I work in an international setting travelled globally and have attended countless interviews / meetings / dinner settings / corporate events which all required some form of downing of food sustenance and my right handed fork holding has yet to hold back my career.

    So tbh i dont really see it as an issue. Now get me that drink young man or there will be no tip in it for you.


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    #42
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    People can choose to live with as much or as little formality as they wish. It doesn't effect the point I made about it being an advantage to know whats appropriate in situations that you are going to have to take part in. I assume most people choose to have some degree of formality in their lives at some stage, due to career choices mainly. Maybe I'm wrong on that. If you have eradicated formality from your life then this whole discussion is purely academic to you.

    Hey maybe it is discriminatory and narrow minded, but that's how humans do it in real life. I don't know what you want me to tell you. It has ever been thus so I choose to try to be informed on whats most appropriate behaviour in a given situation.

    To address your grammar related snipe, well you see they were separate points, "... (1) avoid formal situations for your entire life and (2) never need to do anything you're not comfortable with."

    Maybe I should have used or instead of and. If its so important to you, you can research it and get back to me.

    I find a conversation has run it's course when one party decides to go down the pedantic grammar route rather than look for the actual meaning in whats being said. We should leave it there wouldn't you agree?

    This is your opinion, as stated my reality demonstrates you are wrong.

    It is also the done thing to not translate your opinion into fact. People tend to take a dim view on that. In a formal setting of course.


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    #43
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    listermint wrote: »
    I work in an international setting travelled globally and have attended countless interviews / meetings / dinner settings / corporate events which all required some form of downing of food sustenance and my right handed fork holding has yet to hold back my career.

    So tbh i dont really see it as an issue. Now get me that drink young man or there will be no tip in it for you.

    I don't understand what this refers to. Is it just condescension?

    Did I say it's impossible to work in international setting and travel globally while without table manners? No, I really didn't.

    Well done on the career by the way. Sounds interesting.


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    #44
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    People can choose to live with as much or as little formality as they wish. It doesn't effect the point I made about it being an advantage to know whats appropriate in situations that you are going to have to take part in. I assume most people choose to have some degree of formality in their lives at some stage, due to career choices mainly. Maybe I'm wrong on that. If you have eradicated formality from your life then this whole discussion is purely academic to you.

    Hey maybe it is discriminatory and narrow minded, but that's how humans do it in real life. I don't know what you want me to tell you. It has ever been thus so I choose to try to be informed on whats most appropriate behaviour in a given situation.

    To address your grammar related snipe, well you see they were separate points, "... (1) avoid formal situations for your entire life and (2) never need to do anything you're not comfortable with."

    Maybe I should have used or instead of and. If its so important to you, you can research it and get back to me.

    I find a conversation has run it's course when one party decides to go down the pedantic grammar route rather than look for the actual meaning in whats being said. We should leave it there wouldn't you agree?

    I wasn't talking about grammar I was thinking about how ludicrous it was to make a such value judgement based on appearance. Coincidentally, was just watching, Fred Dibnah turning up to open an office, in a boiler suit, him and the suit splattered with oil, the wife the same. Standing around having a tea and cakes afterwards. Of course he drove up in a steam engine.

    I was also thinking of when you get a vendor dressed up to the nines in a meeting, looks the part, then talks utter garbage. How forced formality works in reverse in many situations. For example in creative industries, which would be the opposite of finance etc. Hence the stereotypical "suit" in popular media.

    Which brings you back to the fork. Its a convention. You can choose to be conventional as you like.


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    #45
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    Am I reading this correct - there are people on this thread that consider using your right hand to hold a fork as incorrect and poor table manners?

    Seriously? :confused:


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    #46
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »
    Am I reading this correct - there are people on this thread that consider using your right hand to hold a fork as incorrect and poor table manners?

    Seriously? :confused:

    Ah but its only incorrect if they think it is. If they are ok with it, then it isn't.


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    #47
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    This has gone silly and boring.

    Good luck


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    #48
    Father Ted Crilly
    Site Banned Posts: 217 ✭✭Father Ted Crilly


    If you are left handed, then yes, it's quite acceptable.


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    #49
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,004 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    This has gone silly and boring.

    Good luck


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    #50
    miezekatze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭miezekatze


    I'm right handed and I've always held the fork in my right hand. My dad eats like this too so I think that's where I picked it up. I don't really see an issue with it though and I'm not sure why anyone would find this rude. It's just more comfortable that way for a lot of people.


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    #51
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    How Uncouth OP,
    That said I'm a righty but eat with fork in my right paw also, but only when Im not throwing food at the other monkeys in my troop or knocking out the next great gadsby on the typewriter.


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    #52
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I don't think you can be left handed. In terms of table manners. Are there exclusions?


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    #53
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,092 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Definitely context dependent. When in Rome. We all do this instinctively anyway. In a casual cafe you could lean back with your arm around an empty chair next to you if it's comfortable but you probably wouldn't even think of it in a restaurant and the same applies to other table manners including cutlery.

    If everyone else at the table is holding their fork in their fist, with their face perpendicular to the table and their elbow above the top of their head, then I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd probably just relax my own standards and not dwell on table manners because none of the company is likely to be noticing or offended by table manners. I wouldn't go full native though.
    None of those example make any sense in this context.
    You are talking about casual dining verses formal.
    (I've no idea what wrong with having your fact perpendicular to the table, where else would face it?)


    People are talking purely of left verses right. You can't change other behaviors to breech social context in order to prove a point. Talking about people uncomfortable in their sunday best is again taking a cheap shot at somebody else.
    Nobody is disputing that there is a way to behave in formal dining settings. I very much doubt anybody expects eating like this to be ok. The reasons why it is socially unacceptable are obvious.

    But purely regarding left and right for fork and knife. Here's a picture of a man eating in a somewhat formal setting. His elbows off the table, cutlery in the correct hands, and the tines are pointing down of course. I presume this passes your standard for table manners.
    2Cutting%20fancy%20food.jpg


    On the other side of the table the mans twin brother sits. Are you saying that this is socially unacceptable and shows a shows blatant disregard for manners?
    If so, can I ask why? As I find that the variation bothers you to be quite bizarre.
    340738.jpg


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    #54
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    listermint wrote: »
    I work in an international setting travelled globally and have attended countless interviews / meetings / dinner settings / corporate events which all required some form of downing of food sustenance and my right handed fork holding has yet to hold back my career.

    So tbh i dont really see it as an issue. Now get me that drink young man or there will be no tip in it for you.


    Who the Fcuk would notice? The Americans transfer their fork to their right hand to eat. that's polite there.

    It's very lower middle class to worry about this kind of thing.


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    #55
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Mellor wrote: »
    None of those example make any sense in this context.
    You are talking about casual dining verses formal.
    (I've no idea what wrong with having your fact perpendicular to the table, where else would face it?)


    People are talking purely of left verses right. You can't change other behaviors to breech social context in order to prove a point. Talking about people uncomfortable in their sunday best is again taking a cheap shot at somebody else.
    Nobody is disputing that there is a way to behave in formal dining settings. I very much doubt anybody expects eating like this to be ok. The reasons why it is socially unacceptable are obvious.

    But purely regarding left and right for fork and knife. Here's a picture of a man eating in a somewhat formal setting. His elbows off the table, cutlery in the correct hands, and the tines are pointing down of course. I presume this passes your standard for table manners.
    2Cutting%20fancy%20food.jpg


    On the other side of the room the mans twin brother sits. Are you saying that this is socially unacceptable and shows a shows blatant disregard for manners?
    If so, can I ask why? As I find that the variation bothers you to be quite bizarre.
    340738.jpg

    Frankly the elbows are too far out in both pictures, something which is likely to affect neighbours. It's possible to keep both hands of the table with elbows in.


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    #56
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,092 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Frankly the elbows are too far out in both pictures, something which is likely to affect neighbours. It's possible to keep both hands of the table with elbows in.
    That did occur to me, but I should point out that both brothers were born with a genetic swollen armpit condition, they can't help but flare their elbows, its also why they each sat on opposite sides of the table so as to not annoy each other.


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    #57
    Judge Mental
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭Judge Mental


    I'm right handed but have used the fork in my right hand for as long as I can remember.

    When I set the table, everybody gets the knife and fork that way.


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    #58
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    athtrasna wrote: »
    I'm left handed so fork always goes in my right hand. Nothing uncivilised about it!

    I'm Left-Handed and the fork always goes in my Left Hand. However I've never cared for snobbish ettiquette, so do whatever feels natural you uncouth awkward heathen!!:)


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    #59
    aidan24326
    Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    Spirogyra wrote: »
    I tend to read while I eat, sometimes using a fork only, with my right hand. Find this easier. If I did so in company/public, would I look uncivilsed? S :)

    Absolutely not. Hold the fork in whatever hand you like and don't worry yourself about 'restaurant etiquette' or any of that nonsense.

    Basic common-sense table manners matter of course, but the vast majority of people (a few pretentious fine dining twits aside) won't give a hoot what hand you hold your fork in.


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    #60
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,373 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Father Ted Crilly wrote: »
    If you are left handed, then yes, it's quite acceptable.
    Are you serious? I hope not, did you read my post about the right handed child who developed a stammer and tics and had headaches, all which went away when they stopped trying to force him to hold a fork in his left hand.

    It's not a trivial matter, it's tantamount to mental abuse if this is what can come of it. Its not some benign request like putting cutlery on your plate in a certain way when finished.

    I was saying people would barely notice me with a fork in my right hand. If I was to switch I would think people would have far more issues with me eating, I would be very awkward looking, eating and cutting up food, just like I expect people who eat the other way around would if they attempted to switch. That poor child was spilling food on themselves, adding to the unnecessary stress.


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    #61
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    tbh Id find it strange to use my fork in my left hand and Id probably have my eye out if I did, Ive tried and it just felt weird, Ive also had people comment, oh you must be left handed, which Im not.


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