Is ADHD a myth?

Cian92 · 12-01-2014 6:57pm

BillyMitchel wrote: »

Ever been with a kid that has ADHD?! They are shît crazy! Many symptoms that are obvious when it's bad. When it's bad you can't help but feel sorry for the parents. I'd say it serious hard work.

Back when I was in school, there was a good chunk diagnosed with it. Generally the children from a worse area where the parent(s) couldn't give a ****. They disrupted the class for the rest of it and were generally a pain.

I'm certain ADHD exists but I doubt it's in any way as common as it is actually diagnosed. It's just used as an excuse, when a child should be given a slap and told to settle down and do some work.

UCDVet · 12-01-2014 6:58pm

wretcheddomain wrote: »

The field of psychiatry is one of the youngest disciplines and it still hasn't found its feet. Much of these new conditions they dream up are simply misbehaviours and not psychiatric disorders worthy of medication.

It was only last year that caffeine withdrawal has now been considered a medical disorder in the DSM. There's no condition that these pedantic psychiatrists won't battle over in order just to create a condition around something that they personally don't consider normal.

In 1952, the same DSM considered homosexuality as a "sociopathic personality disturbance". In other words, they keep reinventing conditions that don't exist or dismissing conditions out of hand when evidence shows they're always wrong.

The real problem with the DSM is that there's no objective diagnosis to any condition so it ultimately becomes subjective. This subjectivity has led to the mass dispensing of antidepressants to people who are simply stressed and not depressed. The subjectivity of this field is one of its greatest weaknesses. It also doesn't exactly help to give these individuals drugs which invariably all carry the risk of increasing suicide ideation.

The movement of conditions needs to move away from psychiatry and drugs and directly into the hands of the psychologists. The psychologist is in a much better place to discover the potential causes and solutions of behaviour which don't require drugs. CBT has been shown to be at least equally effective if not more effective than psychiatric drugs themselves, which often can be difficult to get off.

I guess this shows there might be more to it than first meets the eye - but I've struggled with caffeine withdrawl. If you read what the medical community has to say about it, it matches perfectly with what I've experienced. It's not a chronic condition, and it does resolve itself; but it certainly exists.

I quit caffeine cold-turkey and it was a horrible week long ordeal before I started to feel normal again. It sucked. Before that, when I was a big consumer of caffeine I really did have small issues - I used to go camping and if I didn't bring caffeine to consume I'd have a very unpleasant headache by 11am. It wasn't a big problem because, well, we're typically surrounded by stuff that contains caffeine...but if I went too long without caffeine it would impact me. To be honest, I've had more 'real' medical conditions - like a cyst in my wrist that was surgically removed that would cause me less day-to-day pain than not having caffeine.

wretcheddomain · 12-01-2014 6:59pm

There's a world of difference between a child having concentration difficulties, which I don't doubt for a second, and labelling that child as "psychiatrically disordered".

Modern society seems obsessed with labels and the need to find a label for some condition. Modern society is also becoming increasingly drug dependent and much of this is due to the complacency and ineptitude of GP's.

People keep missing the point. Nobody is saying the 'symptoms' are non-existent, we're saying that the need to label, describe and provide drug treatments goes way beyond the simplicity of the symptom itself.

12-01-2014 7:00pm

As someone with a condition that borders on ADHD, I can most certainly tell you that it is real.

bootybouncer · 12-01-2014 7:01pm

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I would agree to a large extent, add Asperger Syndrome to the list as well.

Why the need to medicalise what are simply differences in ability or personality? Should those who aren't good at sports be routinely prescribed anabolic steroids and HGH?

Come back to me when you have a child with aspergers syndrome or autism

wretcheddomain · 12-01-2014 7:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As someone with a condition that borders on ADHD, I can most certainly tell you that it is real.

What do you mean by real though? I mean, all you're saying is that particular individuals have concentration difficulties...that's it. The conversation ends.

What about individuals who have a degree of hyperconcentration i.e. are much more concentrated than the average individual, do these people require a label and mention in the DSM too?

The_Pretender · 12-01-2014 7:04pm

There's no doubting it exists.

My cousins have it, and my aunt has to lock every room downstairs to be sure they don't sneak down and stay up all night. She is a very prim and proper woman; they are allowed get away with nothing, they rarely even curse and never within earshot of her.

Point is, even though they have been raised well and are nice people as opposed to the most of the little sh!ts you see being labelled as having ADHD, you can tell that there is definitely something up. They never shut up, just always hyper. That is exactly what the condition is, people just being naturally very hyper and sometimes hard to deal with because of it.

Do I feel it it is over diagnosed? Certainly, I believe the vast majority of cases are just used as excuses for bad parenting. However, if you genuinely feel that the condition doesn't exist, you should spend a day with someone who has ADHD while they're off their ritalin. It is hard work.

Cian92 · 12-01-2014 7:06pm

zanador wrote: »

I'm very middle class and actually am a little bit obsessive about e-numbers and preservatives. So, maybe your doctor is wrong?

That's funny! Maybe your doctor is wrong? Are you a fellow doctor, or are you just basing your hypothesis on what suits you?

Earthhorse · 12-01-2014 7:08pm

wretcheddomain wrote: »

What about individuals who have a degree of hyperconcentration i.e. are much more concentrated than the average individual, do these people require a label and mention in the DSM too?

If their symptoms are persistent and cause them difficulty in functioning on a day to day basis then quite probably yes.

wretcheddomain · 12-01-2014 7:12pm

Earthhorse wrote: »

If their symptoms are persistent and cause them difficulty in functioning on a day to day basis then quite probably yes.

What a disturbing post.

This is exactly what I mean - previously deviant behaviour becoming more and more medicalised, considered 'disordered' (as if anyone could ever define "normal" anyway), requiring pharmaceutical intervention...

...blowing the previously non-existent condition out of all rational proportion.

zanador · 12-01-2014 7:13pm

Cian92 wrote: »

That's funny! Maybe your doctor is wrong? Are you a fellow doctor, or are you just basing your hypothesis on what suits you?

No, basing it on having a son with ADHD and being middle class and having a clean diet. The other poster said his doctor said that it was a working class thing due to a crap diet - sorry, that's not exactly what he said, but what I had interpreted when I responded

Gatling · 12-01-2014 7:13pm

It exists anybody that says it just bad parenting is just pure stupidity and lack of knowledge about the condition, wonder do people say the same about autism

Valmont · 12-01-2014 7:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As someone with a condition that borders on ADHD, I can most certainly tell you that it is real.

The way you feel and behave is real and not to be taken lightly but it doesn't qualify as a disease in any objective scientific sense. Scientifically speaking, only the various cells and tissues of the body can be diseased. The way person feels, behaves, or acts can be diseased only in a metaphorical sense, hence the 'myth' of mental illness. Yes, the way we behave, feel, or act, may be influenced by physical pathology somehow but this is a link that is entirely missing from our currently faddish list of mental illnesses.

Ave Sodalis · 12-01-2014 7:15pm

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Take it up with my Biochem lecturer :L

A quick google of the disease tells you how rare it is and thankfully, I've done biochemistry to the extent I know what the journals and stuff mean. From what I've found, I can't see the link except maybe the first stages of phenylketonuria. After that, it seems the disease progresses much further than typical symptoms of ADHD and more like autism.
I know it was made as a jest but I wouldn't actually mind finding out the what they have to say

anncoates · 12-01-2014 7:16pm

wretcheddomain wrote: »

There's a world of difference between a child having concentration difficulties, which I don't doubt for a second, and labelling that child as "psychiatrically disordered"

Most kids (including mine) have short attention spans and are wired to the moon but it's a world away from what some people with genuine experience here are describing

zanador · 12-01-2014 7:17pm

Valmont wrote: »

The way you feel and behave is real but it doesn't qualify as a disease in any meaningful or scientific sense.

Isn't it more of a syndrome, or condition, than a disease?

wretcheddomain · 12-01-2014 7:18pm

anncoates wrote: »

Most kids (including mine) have short attention spans and are wired to the moon but it's a world away from what some people with genuine experience here are describing

But this forum doesn't reflect the reality on the ground, which encompasses a gigantic amount of people whose children have been misdiagnosed with ADHD when they simply have a mild deviancy from the (apparent) norm.

dissed doc · 12-01-2014 7:21pm

Hitchens wrote: »

ADHD Does Not Exist: The Truth About Attention Deficit and Hyperactivity Disorder, by neurologist Richard Saul. The book will be on the shelves in February.

read more: http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/neurologist-richard-saul-says-adhd-does-not-exist/story-fneuzlbd-1226795655925

He may well be right.

It's misdiagnosed by people who are not trained in even diagnosing basic mental illness, not to mind childhood mental illness. For example, Ireland has only around 40-50 active child psychiatrists. They are the people who can diagnose things like ADHD with authority. Adult psychiatrists have limited training in ADHD and neurologists and paediatricians are usually unqualified to diagnose mental disorders; to want to be an authority on one, when you cannot formally even diagnose what is anxiety or depression conditions is quite ambitious.

As a neurologist he probably has training more in epilepsy and related hyperkinetic disorders. That is a tiny % of ADHD and so seeing as he is not seeing 90% of the problems it easy to say it doesn't exist. Most ADHD is in fact comorbid with a variety of anxiety, behavioural and mood problems. You need to be able to handle these first and then look at the "ADHD" problems.

Everybody and his mother feels expert enough to talk about mental illness. WOuld I take a radiologists opinion on epilepsy? Nope. Is medical advice allowed on boards.ie? NOpe - but psychological advice is if you look at Personal Issues. Amazing but true. I guess everyone has an opinion....

There are 1.15 million children in Ireland. If even 5% meet the diagnostic criteria for ADHD, that is 115,000 children who may need some extra assistance. There are 40-50 trained practicing child psychiatrists in the whole country. Each would have to see and treat around 2500 children to get an accurate figure. Obviously that doesn't happen. Easier to get a pseudo diagnosis and an easy methylfenidate prescription.

This is also the problem in rural US, where massive amounts of prescribing for kids goes on, usually never with the advice from a child psychiatrist with psychopharmacology expertise. Same reason why 95% of antidepressants are prescribed by GPs; mental illness expertise is in very short supply.

zanador · 12-01-2014 7:22pm

wretcheddomain wrote: »

What a disturbing post.

This is exactly what I mean - previously deviant behaviour becoming more and more medicalised, considered 'disordered' (as if anyone could ever define "normal" anyway), requiring pharmaceutical intervention...

...blowing the previously non-existent condition out of all rational proportion.

but that's going under the assumption that there is something wrong with being neurologically different. I am teaching my son to be proud of his ADHD, to take ownership of it - and he does now.

I used to be anti-labelling, in fact I had strong opinions about it, but now I reckon it's another useful tool (of which there are many) to helping my son be happy and fulfilled.

NegativeCreep · 12-01-2014 7:22pm

sup_dude wrote: »

A quick google of the disease tells you how rare it is and thankfully, I've done biochemistry to the extent I know what the journals and stuff mean. From what I've found, I can't see the link except maybe the first stages of phenylketonuria. After that, it seems the disease progresses much further than typical symptoms of ADHD and more like autism.
I know it was made as a jest but I wouldn't actually mind finding out the what they have to say

1 in 4,500 births in Ireland apparently but maybe that is rare, I don't know how many babies are born in Ireland each year

But yeah, it would be the early stages that cause it alright. I'm not saying that it's the only cause or that it's even a major cause in the slightest I was just using it as an example.

It's real, in my opinion (but obviously widely over-diagnosed) and it's not enough for people to just say that they don't believe in it.

It's not a topic in which I care a whole lot though so I don't really mind people having these opinions :L

Turtwig · 12-01-2014 7:23pm

Valmont wrote: »

The way you feel and behave is real and not to be taken lightly but it doesn't qualify as a disease in any objective scientific sense. Scientifically speaking, only the various cells and tissues of the body can be diseased. The way person feels, behaves, or acts can be diseased only in a metaphorical sense, hence the 'myth' of mental illness. Yes, the way we behave, feel, or act, may be influenced by physical pathology somehow but this is a link that is entirely missing from our currently faddish list of mental illnesses.

But the point you're making is categorically different from wretched's one. Your addressing the description of a disease which is fair but you don't seem to be disputing that the symptoms of whatever the thing is classed as are real and may need professional help in being managed. Wretched seems to be insisting that such management is unnecessary.

Your point is more related to the need for the abandonment of DSM and a move towards physical pathology in diagnosis.

Earthhorse · 12-01-2014 7:23pm

wretcheddomain wrote: »

What a disturbing post.

This is exactly what I mean - previously deviant behaviour becoming more and more medicalised, considered 'disordered' (as if anyone could ever define "normal" anyway), requiring pharmaceutical intervention...

...blowing the previously non-existent condition out of all rational proportion.

On the contrary, it is you who is blowing the strength of my post out of all propotion.

Where did I say it needed to be medicalised? Classing a condition and treating it are two different things. Where did I use the word "normal"? I didn't, I said if they had difficult functioning, an entirely different concept and pretty easy to observe because you'll see the person in crisis or they'll tell you they are in crisis. But of course, if you didn't associate these ideas with my post it'd be difficult to label it as "disturbing".

And the categorisation of conditions does not mean they were previously non existent. Neither is it the case that all categorised conditions are categorised correctly or in need of categorisation.

anncoates · 12-01-2014 7:25pm

wretcheddomain wrote: »

But this forum doesn't reflect the reality on the ground, which encompasses a gigantic amount of people whose children have been misdiagnosed with ADHD when they simply have a mild deviancy from the (apparent) norm.

I think there is a difference between acknowledging that a large number of people may or may not mistakenly believe (or are told) that their kids have genuine symptoms and using this to disparage anybody with the symptoms as a brat in order to express your inner Jeremy Kyle.

It's like saying the number one phantom ailment for sickies is tummy ache so somebody with appendicitis is a work shy malingerer.

Ave Sodalis · 12-01-2014 7:33pm

The only real problem I have with labeling is the amount of people who use it to hide behind. The amount of "I can't" you hear because of people hiding behind their label (real or not) is what is disturbing. It's the people (and there are many) who give up on things before they even try because they have whatever is irritating.
I've worked with people with Aspergers, ADHD (genuine and not so) and hypocondriacs (which were actually the most difficult) and if I had a euro for every time I was told they can't do something because of their label, I'd be rich. If I had a euro for every time I was told that, but they actually could do it with the right help and the right push, I'd be nearly as rich.
Worse, is the usage of their label to get away with things. Sure enough, the woman with Aspergers may have said things that people usually wouldn't say out loud but there are people who do the same and blame it on their label... even if it has nothing to do with it!

Gatling · 12-01-2014 7:42pm

sup_dude wrote: »

The only real problem I have with labeling is the amount of people who use it to hide behind. The amount of "I can't" you hear because of people hiding behind their label (real or not) is what is disturbing. It's the people (and there are many) who give up on things before they even try because they have whatever is irritating.
I've worked with people with Aspergers, ADHD (genuine and not so) and hypocondriacs (which were actually the most difficult) and if I had a euro for every time I was told they can't do something because of their label, I'd be rich. If I had a euro for every time I was told that, but they actually could do it with the right help and the right push, I'd be nearly as rich.
Worse, is the usage of their label to get away with things. Sure enough, the woman with Aspergers may have said things that people usually wouldn't say out loud but there are people who do the same and blame it on their label... even if it has nothing to do with it!

Reminds me of a thread on here not AH where a parent had the child diagnosed as ADHD and wanted to apply for disability for the child aged 7 becuse in there eyes they would never be able to work due to the diagnosis,

Now imagine aged 7 and up and being told you will never be able work or have a career due to ADHD makes you disabled

McDook · 12-01-2014 7:43pm

It looks like there are just as many Doctors as Economists on boards these days.

Ave Sodalis · 12-01-2014 7:44pm

Gatling wrote: »

Reminds me of a thread on here not AH where a parent had the child diagnosed as ADHD and wanted to apply for disability for the child aged 7 becuse in there eyes they would never be able to work due to the diagnosis,

Now imagine aged 7 and up and being told you will never be able work or have a career due to ADHD makes you disabled

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120922153752/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/9/9f/Facepalm_facepalm.png

The terrible thing about that is that the child will probably grow up believing it can't work because of it...

Valmont · 12-01-2014 8:17pm

zanador wrote: »

Isn't it more of a syndrome, or condition, than a disease?

Yes and no. It is, technically speaking, a syndrome; which is simply a name applied to a group of signs or symptoms. Thomas Sydenham and later Emil Kraeplin had the idea that if syndromes were identified first then the actual disease (pathological alteration of some part of the body) could be found much easier. Mental illnesses are diseases only insofar as they represent a syndrome identified by a clinician but this has no scientific or objective basis and when we are dealing with behaviour, almost any pattern whatsoever could be construed as a 'disorder'. The question we have to ask is is this medicalisation of troublesome childhood behaviour the best way to (1) understand the phenomena and (2) help the child and his parents. I think people are starting to want a bit more common sense and a lot less pseudo-scientific psycho-medical babble when dealing with troublesome children.

I see the whole ADHD phenomena as a responsibility shuffle. In the past a troublesome child was firstly the parent's problem and then the teacher's; now a quick trip to the doctor and the parent and teacher are absolved of their responsibility because the child is 'wired' this way and needs medical help of some sort. Surprise surprise the number of 'diagnosis' (again, just the process of naming an arbitrary syndrome of bad behaviour) rockets up every year, more drugs are prescribed and the root problem is not addressed (whatever it may be for a certain child, there are no all-encompassing answers).

Valmont · 12-01-2014 8:21pm

sup_dude wrote: »

I've worked with people with Aspergers, ADHD (genuine and not so) and hypocondriacs (which were actually the most difficult) and if I had a euro for every time I was told they can't do something because of their label, I'd be rich.

When you speak of genuine and not genuine ADHD you imply there is some way to tell the difference but the truth is there is not! There is no blood or other pathological test to distinguish between fakes and the real thing only the opinion of a doctor or mental health worker.

zanador · 12-01-2014 8:21pm

Valmont wrote: »

Yes and no. It is, technically speaking, a syndrome; which is simply a name applied to a group of signs or symptoms. Thomas Sydenham and later Emil Kraeplin had the idea that if syndromes were identified first then the actual disease (pathological alteration of some part of the body) could be found much easier. Mental illnesses are diseases only insofar as they represent a syndrome identified by a clinician but this has no scientific or objective basis and when we are dealing with behaviour, almost any pattern whatsoever could be construed as a 'disorder'. The question we have to ask is is this medicalisation of troublesome childhood behaviour the best way to (1) understand the phenomena and (2) help the child and his parents. I think people are starting to want a bit more common sense and a lot less pseudo-scientific psycho-medical babble when dealing with troublesome children.

I see the whole ADHD phenomena as a responsibility shuffle. In the past a troublesome child was firstly the parent's problem and then the teacher's; now a quick trip to the doctor and the parent and teacher are absolved of their responsibility because the child is 'wired' this way and needs medical help of some sort. Surprise surprise the number of 'diagnosis' (again, just the process of naming an arbitrary syndrome of bad behaviour) rockets up every year, more drugs are prescribed and the root problem is not addressed (whatever it may be for a certain child, there are no all-encompassing answers).

I was never pressured to medicate, and my child was diagnosed because of his concentration issues and nothing to do with his behaviour. I was told in the clinic that bad behaviour is NOT ADHD.

Is ADHD a myth?

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