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"What about the homos?"
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Does anyone really know what this nebulous thing called 'the ethos' is, its only pseudo business speak for being a 'lovely caring school'.
I can understand giving preference for a teacher who has been through a school as a past pupil or whatever. But taking about ethos being a definable thing may as well be talking about quantum physics. Hence my mockery of its use in legal cases!
Some schools have a GAA ethos. Some schools have a very distinct academic Jesuit, while others emphasise Irish language. If you are against schools having an individual ethos you are against Irish languages schools and every other sort of school level expression.0 -
Funnily enough I've never seen 'we dont want gays/pregnant students/divorced teachers' or whatever in their policy documents on ethos or blurb on 'about the school' on their website. Wonder why?
I have never heard of a school not wanting to hear homosexuals etc. However I have heard of schools prioritizing hiring staff who agree with the curriculum and rightly so. Asking a Jewish or secular person to teach Catholicism is like asking a Young Earth Creationist to teach leaving cert biology :rolleyes:. It is absolutely illogical.0 -
Some schools have a GAA ethos.
Well I would presume that this is your understanding of some school's ethos. However, I would like to see an example of 'we have a GAA ethos' written in their mission statement about the school (not just in the extra curricular section).
Again , does it explicitly state this or is this your understanding of the school. Isn't the 'academic' selling point just a coy way of saying 'fee-paying/middle class' school with no riff-raff. As a case in point we'll pull out one of these schools mission statement. (This one isn't actually a fee paying school but I think it would be safe to say that it's history is grounded in middle class attendees... for the purposes of the Ethos discussion there's no need to name the school.)Some schools have a very distinct academic Jesuit,
School X has dedicated teachers who are committed to high academic standards. The college provides a rich and diverse curriculum catering for the needs of each individual student. It strives for excellence also in the areas of social concern and spiritual values, sport and culture, wherein students are encouraged and challenged to realise their full potential as human beings in the Ignatian tradition.
So presumably you may contend this this is the Ethos of the school unique to that school. But I would argue differently.- What school would advertise that they don't have "dedicated teachers..."
- What school would advertise that they don't have "a rich and diverse curriculum..."
- What school would advertise that they don't " cater for the needs of the individual student..."
- What school would advertise that they don't " strive[] for excellence also in the areas of social concern and spiritual values." Edit: MAybe several non denominationals but that's a different debate.
- What school would advertise that they don't help students " realise their full potential as human beings ."
- The last point "In the Ignation Tradition"... what's that all about?
So if you strip it all away, there's nothing that isn't easily copy and pastable into another school's ethos statement, and if you look at any other ethos statements they are much the same.
Although .... there is the little kicker in there of Religion "In the Ignation Tradition". So then we are down the road of discrimination with things like in the title being fair comment because of the Ethos...
Similarly this quote below is all above board on the grounds of protecting the ethos...
’I will not and do not accept single mothers in this school. The school has an uncompromising ethos and will not become a dumping ground for those rejected elsewhere....Do not try to blame this school for having a moral code. You have no business coming down here to single us out - we are a Catholic school and shall remain so’.
So to go from a wishy washy statement about ethos in a schools mission statement, to the above quote, seems all above board and supported by things like section 37.
In essence, I'm not against schools having a selling-point/catch-phrase (or ethos as it might like to be called). That's all fine and dandy, the school can say they specialise in unicorns and Harry Potter for all I care. But what I do take exception to is folk feeling that they have a 'get out of jail free' card by strutting out the ethos. This in turn gives them the notion to act the maggot in interviews and terminations of employment.0 -
It's anything that the school considers to be an important part of the students' development outside of the national curricula which are standard across all schools in this country.Go on so... what is?
A school with a particular religious ethos would discourage practices not in keeping with that religion and encourage practicing that religion properly.
A school with a sporting ethos would place a high emphasis on participating in sport and probably good health as that affects sporting performance.
Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholáistí have an ethos of providing education in our native language (which is practically banned from boards.ie because the powers that be feel that mods don't know how to use Google translate) and encourage the students to develop a love of their language.
On that note, would people be complaining if a Gaelcholáiste didn't hire someone who was fully qualified and more experienced than some other candidate if that candidate actively campaigned against the Irish language outside of school? I doubt it. Why? Because that person is openly undermining the school's ethos and that affects how the students see the school. It's a bit like the way we were all told during our dips (I would think) that teachers shouldn't chew gum in class or sit at their desk texting if the students aren't allowed to because it undermines the school's rules. The same goes for ethos.0 -
Noccy_Mondy wrote: »What in hells fire is a nun doing on that panel. I know that most schools are tied with the catholic church, but what benefit would the likes of that one be to any BOM. I'm aware that a priest is often on a panel. More than likely just a representative figure who's views are outdated and backward.
If it's a RC run school, why wouldn't there be a priest or nun on the panel?0 -
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Those who hire staff for RC schools only hear what they want to hear. Of course an interviewee will say they are a practicing Catholic, of course they will say so. Once they are employed, they can do what they want. I am personally aware of two people who are primary teachers in an RC school, one of whom teaches a First Communion class, who have no religious belief.Asking a Jewish or secular person to teach Catholicism is like asking a Young Earth Creationist to teach leaving cert biology :rolleyes:. It is absolutely illogical.
The only way to ensure that genuine believers educate children in religious doctrine is to do it through the church. But it isn't interested in fulfilling that part of its mission - it's quite happy to have its children educated by atheists, as long as they say at the interview that they are RC's.0 -
It's anything that the school considers to be an important part of the students' development outside of the national curricula which are standard across all schools in this country.
A school with a particular religious ethos would discourage practices not in keeping with that religion and encourage practicing that religion properly.
A school with a sporting ethos would place a high emphasis on participating in sport and probably good health as that affects sporting performance.
Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholáistí have an ethos of providing education in our native language (which is practically banned from boards.ie because the powers that be feel that mods don't know how to use Google translate) and encourage the students to develop a love of their language.
On that note, would people be complaining if a Gaelcholáiste didn't hire someone who was fully qualified and more experienced than some other candidate if that candidate actively campaigned against the Irish language outside of school? I doubt it. Why? Because that person is openly undermining the school's ethos and that affects how the students see the school. It's a bit like the way we were all told during our dips (I would think) that teachers shouldn't chew gum in class or sit at their desk texting if the students aren't allowed to because it undermines the school's rules. The same goes for ethos.
Its not about 'not hiring' per se , its about 'firing'. Would you fire the music teacher because they didn't undertake any sports outside school.. obviously they are going against the ethos of a sporty school!
Also where did Jesus say that 'gays/pregnant teenagers/divorcee's' arent in keeping with his teachings...
Also, Sure ya you wouldnt be campaigning against Irish and looking for a job in a gaelscoil. Thats a given, but what about if you aren't a religioun teacher but get fired because you happen to be 'homo'.... were you supposed to declare this in the job interview?
Do you see a cross on a wall in the interview room and automatically think oh theres the jesus guy who died for me but he's against homosexuality (apparently!)... I better terminate the interview and look for another school that doesnt have 'religious values'.
Theres a lot of dancing around this Ethos... but I've yet to see a school explicitly state 'no gays/divorcee's' welcome. Why dont they just explicitly state this and stop hiding behind 'ethos' and 'religious values'? It always seems to only come out after the fact!
If it makes it any clearer, boards.ie has been explicit about not posting in Irish only from the very outset. But, being inclusive, it is asked that the polite thing be done and provide a translation for the benefit of mods (who are volunteers btw) and others. Why would anyone persist in protesting against the rules when its what they signed up to in the first place. No one is being excluded in this case and there have been no attempts at subterfuge or reprimands given. Homolinguals are allowed to practice as long as they include everyone.
No hidden ethos needed there!0 -
First of all, in this discussion, it is about hiring, not firing because we're talking about a case where someone was passed over for promotion in favour of someone younger and less experienced who subsequently successfully sued on the grounds of discrimination (and bafflingly, the court found that as well as being discriminated against as a result of her age, she was also somehow discriminated against based on her sexuality and religion even though she professes to have been of both the religion and sexual orientation they were supposedly looking for - that's a separate issue though).Its not about 'not hiring' per se , its about 'firing'. Would you fire the music teacher because they didn't undertake any sports outside school.. obviously they are going against the ethos of a sporty school!
Also where did Jesus say that 'gays/pregnant teenagers/divorcee's' arent in keeping with his teachings...
Also, Sure ya you wouldnt be campaigning against Irish and looking for a job in a gaelscoil. Thats a given, but what about if you aren't a religioun teacher but get fired because you happen to be 'homo'.... were you supposed to declare this in the job interview?
Do you see a cross on a wall in the interview room and automatically think oh theres the jesus guy who died for me but he's against homosexuality (apparently!)... I better terminate the interview and look for another school that doesnt have 'religious values'.
Theres a lot of dancing around this Ethos... but I've yet to see a school explicitly state 'no gays/divorcee's' welcome. Why dont they just explicitly state this and stop hiding behind 'ethos' and 'religious values'? It always seems to only come out after the fact!
If it makes it any clearer, boards.ie has been explicit about not posting in Irish only from the very outset. But, being inclusive, it is asked that the polite thing be done and provide a translation for the benefit of mods (who are volunteers btw) and others. Why would anyone persist in protesting against the rules when its what they signed up to in the first place. No one is being excluded in this case and there have been no attempts at subterfuge or reprimands given. Homolinguals are allowed to practice as long as they include everyone.
No hidden ethos needed there!
However, on the slight tangent on firing you went off on, would you fire the music teacher? Well if they said that they'd get on board with the sporting ethos or implied that they would, then why not fire them? If they made it clear that they wouldn't be getting involved when asked at interview (and you'd expect them to be asked in those circumstances) then firing then for doing what they said they'd do would be unjust, although not renewing their contract in favour of interviewing for a more appropriate candidate wouldn't.
Neither of those are examples of what we're talking about though. What we're talking about is a scenario where that music teacher did get involved with sports and did what was explicitly required of them but at the same time, actively undermined the schools ethos at other times, like if they were telling the students in class that sports were a waste of time and that they should concentrate on music instead or if, in this imaginary scenario, that there was some sort of conflict within the government with regards the education budget with one side wanting to give more funding to sport and the other wanting to give more funding to the arts and he/she openly opposed the extra sports funding. That would be undermining the school's sporting ethos and could result in a semi-justifiable (if harsh in that case) termination of the teacher's contract.
You can plead ignorance if you like but I very much doubt that you don't have a very good idea of what a school with a Catholic ethos expects. You must have moved to Ireland very recently if you don't.
The Irish thing wasn't really directed at you and I apologise for the 'snarkiness' of it. I'm just annoyed that after a mod (it might have been you - I don't remember) suggested that I raise the Irish language issue in feedback but when I did, another mod shot me down almost immediately and locked the thread without even giving me a chance to respond (and also didn't respond to my subsequent, admittedly ratty, pm), claiming that he/she was doing it to prevent the thread from descending into a discussion (not quite the way he/she put it but that was the gist). I appreciate that the mods are volunteers but if you're going to volunteer for something you should be willing to do it properly and that mod is not doing his/her job properly. A mod's job is to facilitate discussion, not shut it down before it starts just because he/she thinks they know how it'll go.0 -
First of all, in this discussion, it is about hiring, not firing because we're talking about a case where someone was passed over for promotion in favour of someone younger and less experienced who subsequently successfully sued on the grounds of discrimination (and bafflingly, the court found that as well as being discriminated against as a result of her age, she was also somehow discriminated against based on her sexuality and religion even though she professes to have been of both the religion and sexual orientation they were supposedly looking for - that's a separate issue though).
However, on the slight tangent on firing you went off on, would you fire the music teacher? Well if they said that they'd get on board with the sporting ethos or implied that they would, then why not fire them? If they made it clear that they wouldn't be getting involved when asked at interview (and you'd expect them to be asked in those circumstances) then firing then for doing what they said they'd do would be unjust, although not renewing their contract in favour of interviewing for a more appropriate candidate wouldn't.
Neither of those are examples of what we're talking about though. What we're talking about is a scenario where that music teacher did get involved with sports and did what was explicitly required of them but at the same time, actively undermined the schools ethos at other times, like if they were telling the students in class that sports were a waste of time and that they should concentrate on music instead or if, in this imaginary scenario, that there was some sort of conflict within the government with regards the education budget with one side wanting to give more funding to sport and the other wanting to give more funding to the arts and he/she openly opposed the extra sports funding. That would be undermining the school's sporting ethos and could result in a semi-justifiable (if harsh in that case) termination of the teacher's contract.
You can plead ignorance if you like but I very much doubt that you don't have a very good idea of what a school with a Catholic ethos expects. You must have moved to Ireland very recently if you don't.
The Irish thing wasn't really directed at you and I apologise for the 'snarkiness' of it. I'm just annoyed that after a mod (it might have been you - I don't remember) suggested that I raise the Irish language issue in feedback but when I did, another mod shot me down almost immediately and locked the thread without even giving me a chance to respond (and also didn't respond to my subsequent, admittedly ratty, pm), claiming that he/she was doing it to prevent the thread from descending into a discussion (not quite the way he/she put it but that was the gist). I appreciate that the mods are volunteers but if you're going to volunteer for something you should be willing to do it properly and that mod is not doing his/her job properly. A mod's job is to facilitate discussion, not shut it down before it starts just because he/she thinks they know how it'll go.
Quite simply (the bold part)... show me any school ethos that explicitly states 'teachers/students of a certain sexual orientation are not welcome'.
The answer we all know is that for a school to overtly 'come out' and say it , would blatantly be wrong. And you don't need the moral compass of religion or an ethos to point that out. The nun in the interview was ruled to have done what others are afraid to do. At least she was laying her cards on the table by showing her bigotry from the outset...
Just because you have an ethos and Section 37 to hide behind, it doesn't (or shouldn't) give anyone the right to discriminate on the nine equality grounds.
As regards the Irish Language saga arguing over it would be like a student in the gaeltacht continuously squabbling with the teacher that the school should use English and Irish. At some stage the teacher has to stop explaining WHY the rules are there and tell the student they came to the gaelteacht of their own volition. They knew the rules from the outset but still see fit to argue about them. It's like complaining about processed food whilst gorging on a Big Mac and french fries.0 -
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That isn't stated because it isn't the case and there is no evidence to suggest that this was the motivation behind the question in this case (if it was even asked the way it was alleged - all members of the interview panel claim that they don't remember it that way and, as has been mentioned already, it doesn't seem like the sort of language you'd expect from a member of an interview panel) either beyond what people are assuming to be the case.Quite simply (the bold part)... show me any school ethos that explicitly states 'teachers/students of a certain sexual orientation are not welcome'.
Now this is certainly an interesting way of interpreting things. A mod is not in the same position as a teacher in the Gaeltacht and it is a little worrying to me if you (or other mods) see things that way. I am not a child who is here because my parents signed me up and don't know what's good for me. I am a highly educated adult with lots of experience, both in life and in the use of internet forums and was under the impression (because I was given that impression by a mod on this forum) that I could raise my issue in the feedback section of boards. Rather than allowing my issue to be discussed, another mod shut me down straight away, as though I was a child who didn't know any better. Rules are not set in stone in most things in life. What is the purpose of a feedback forum if you're not allowed to actually discuss things?As regards the Irish Language saga arguing over it would be like a student in the gaeltacht continuously squabbling with the teacher that the school should use English and Irish. At some stage the teacher has to stop explaining WHY the rules are there and tell the student they came to the gaelteacht of their own volition. They knew the rules from the outset but still see fit to argue about them. It's like complaining about processed food whilst gorging on a Big Mac and french fries.
Is your attitude the policy for boards mods? That the posters are like children who need to be controlled, even in the forum specifically set up to give them a voice with regards how things are run. What is boards.ie's mission statement anyway? I wouldn't think that it was intended as an english language forum specifically but rather, as a forum to be used by the people of Ireland. The former might have come into it when they realised what the latter entailed but, as I mentioned before, Google translate does an adequate job these days so mods not being able to speak Irish really isn't the excuse it used to be.
The rule, as it stands, effectively bans the use of Irish from any forum other than those where it is expressly allowed. Just look at the thread from which this whole thing arose. Almost all responses have been exclusively in english even though it was aimed specifically at Irish speakers. You're very much against discrimination in a school setting (and rightly so) but you seem to be on board with it here. You say that I knew the rules when I signed up. So did that woman who went to interview referenced in this OP of this thread.0 -
I think it's worth remembering in this situation that whatever their "ethos" the majority of schools are funded by the department ie the Taxpayers. The govt are entitled to insist that if schools are taking govt money they absolutely have to abide by Equality legislation. If the want a " no who evers " policy to fit in with their ethos maybe they should'nt be govt funded.0
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