"What about the homos?"

efb · 19-01-2015 9:56am #1

I'm aghast, but not surprised.
http://www.thejournal.ie/equality-tribunal-ruling-1889466-Jan2015/?utm_source=shortlink

evolving_doors · 19-01-2015 11:04am

Sorry OP, the click through doesn't work on my phone.. if you could give a tl;dr of the story thatd be great

I presume the title isnt your opinion either so maybe stick some quotation marks around them.

spurious · 19-01-2015 11:11am

Wow, just wow.
http://www.thejournal.ie/equality-tribunal-ruling-1889466-Jan2015/

tl; dr;
Deputy Principal goes for Principalship. Shenanigans in interview process. New interview. Same board, including a nun who asked 'What about the homos?' during the interview.
Person who was appointed was younger, less qualified, less experienced.
Discrimination. Year's salary compo.

gaiscioch · 19-01-2015 7:20pm

The female teacher, who was deputy principal at the time, made the complaint against the unidentified school where she has worked since 2003

Is there any reason why the school in question can hide behind anonymity? I'd personally like to know if my local school is full of troglodytes on the Board of Management.

evolving_doors · 19-01-2015 8:11pm

gaiscioch wrote: »

Is there any reason why the school in question can hide behind anonymity? I'd personally like to know if my local school is full of troglodytes on the Board of Management.

Maybe the teacher was given the right to keep anonymity !

Just wondering.... how did the court accept that the homo quote was said? were other board members testifying against the nun! Or was it a balance of probabilities that the judge sided with the teacher kind of thing!

berger89 · 19-01-2015 8:13pm

Armelodie wrote: »

Maybe the teacher was given the right to keep anonymity !

Just wondering.... how did the court accept that the homo quote was said? were other board members testifying against the nun! Or was it a balance of probabilities that the judge sided with the teacher kind of thing!

I think the nun got selective memory when questioned. Apparently, she could remember stuff from years ago over her career, but suddenly couldn't remember much about this interview or THAT question that she asked

Frankly frank · 19-01-2015 8:32pm

The nuns of Sant’Ambrogio

mikom · 19-01-2015 8:37pm

spurious wrote: »

Wow, just wow.
http://www.thejournal.ie/equality-tribunal-ruling-1889466-Jan2015/

tl; dr;
Deputy Principal goes for Principalship. Shenanigans in interview process. New interview. Same board, including a nun who asked 'What about the homos?' during the interview.
Person who was appointed was younger, less qualified, less experienced.
Discrimination. Year's salary compo.

The nun got cut off too early.
What she was going to say was..... "What about the homophones?"
They take linguistics very seriously at that school.

peckerhead · 19-01-2015 9:55pm

gaiscioch wrote: »

Is there any reason why the school in question can hide behind anonymity? I'd personally like to know if my local school is full of troglodytes on the Board of Management.

Most Catholic schools maintain at least a 51% quota.

oceanclub · 19-01-2015 10:43pm

The argument for religious-run schools is often "choice".

Therefore, why aren't people told the name of this school so they have the choice of not exposing their children - gay or straight - to a hate-filled environment?

P.

orl · 20-01-2015 12:47am

Boards won't let me post the original decision but it is DEC-E2014-097 on the workplacerelations website.

The EO said Sr B could recall other questions in the interview very well but not that one. The rest of the interview panel did not deny that she made the comment. The complainant was very credible and the standard of proof is ' balance of probabilities' rather than a criminal one.

Where complainants request anonymity, the Equality Tribunal usually give it. The teacher that took the case is still teaching in the school and the less qualified, less experienced other candidate is her Principal.

oceanclub · 20-01-2015 1:11am

orl wrote: »

Boards won't let me post the original decision but it is DEC-E2014-097 on the workplacerelations website.

The EO said Sr B could recall other questions in the interview very well but not that one. The rest of the interview panel did not deny that she made the comment. The complainant was very credible and the standard of proof is ' balance of probabilities' rather than a criminal one.

Where complainants request anonymity, the Equality Tribunal usually give it. The teacher that took the case is still teaching in the school and the less qualified, less experienced other candidate is her Principal.

From the link:

In particular, she submits that the presence of Mr C. was in contravention of the rules of procedure mentioned above

Does anyone know why this was the case?

P.

Noccy_Mondy · 20-01-2015 1:12am

What in hells fire is a nun doing on that panel. I know that most schools are tied with the catholic church, but what benefit would the likes of that one be to any BOM. I'm aware that a priest is often on a panel. More than likely just a representative figure who's views are outdated and backward.

orl · 21-01-2015 1:14am

@oceanclub - I reread the decision and figure that out either

evolving_doors · 21-01-2015 8:50am

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

What in hells fire is a nun doing on that panel. I know that most schools are tied with the catholic church, but what benefit would the likes of that one be to any BOM. I'm aware that a priest is often on a panel. More than likely just a representative figure who's views are outdated and backward.

Presumably the nun was The Expert on the ethos... who knows!
Maybe thats why the younger less qualified teacher got it.... better at ethosing.

Haven't I mentioned the ethossssss yet? rolleyes

Surprised they didn't mention it in their defence though.

RealJohn · 21-01-2015 11:47am

Armelodie wrote: »

Presumably the nun was The Expert on the ethos... who knows!
Maybe thats why the younger less qualified teacher got it.... better at ethosing.

Haven't I mentioned the ethossssss yet? rolleyes

Surprised they didn't mention it in their defence though.

You say that as though a school's ethos isn't relevant in hiring someone. Ethos isn't an excuse for blatant discrimination but it is a relevant concern in any interview for any position in a school.

evolving_doors · 21-01-2015 12:34pm

RealJohn wrote: »

You say that as though a school's ethos isn't relevant in hiring someone. Ethos isn't an excuse for blatant discrimination but it is a relevant concern in any interview for any position in a school.

Sadly the ethos IS a very blatant excuse for blatant discrimination because of section 37 (contravening the 9 grounds of discrimination).

Does anyone really know what this nebulous thing called 'the ethos' is, its only pseudo business speak for being a 'lovely caring school'.

I can understand giving preference for a teacher who has been through a school as a past pupil or whatever. But taking about ethos being a definable thing may as well be talking about quantum physics. Hence my mockery of its use in legal cases!

Asarlai · 21-01-2015 12:46pm

orl wrote: »

The rest of the interview panel did not deny that she made the comment.

Not true. "When further asked about her question on ‘What about about homos?’, the nun and the other two interviewers denied that it had taken place."

macyard · 21-01-2015 12:53pm

Asarlai wrote: »

Not true. "When further asked about her question on ‘What about about homos?’, the nun and the other two interviewers denied that it had taken place."

Sounds like thev ice principle is saltys she did not get the job and made up a case, a nun wouldn't use the word homo's she could have made it more believable by say the nun said gay or homosexual

seavill · 21-01-2015 2:54pm

Yea because we all know nuns and priests would never do or say anything wrong ever

macyard · 21-01-2015 2:55pm

seavill wrote: »

Yea because we all know nuns and priests would never do or say anything wrong ever

It's not they wouldn't ask a question like that, it's they wouldn't use the word homo's, gay homosexual queer maybe homo's is to slang

seavill · 21-01-2015 2:57pm

You have no basis for that statement.

macyard · 21-01-2015 2:57pm

seavill wrote: »

You have no basis for that statement.

Just like there is none the nun said it, actually evidence is the nun didn't say it.

spurious · 21-01-2015 3:05pm

Those of us who have actually worked in that sort of place are well capable of forming an informed opinion as to what was likely said.

macyard · 21-01-2015 3:16pm

spurious wrote: »

Those of us who have actually worked in that sort of place are well capable of forming an informed opinion as to what was likely said.

I have worked with nuns and priests sure they might not like gay people they would never use slang like that

feargale · 21-01-2015 3:16pm

The fact is that certainly up to recently nuns were promoted not on the basis of ability but mainly on their capacity for "obedience." I once went to a nun, the principal of a primary school attended by my dyslexic child to discuss the problem. The essence of what I was told was that it was the will of God. Imagine being told that by a surgeon treating you for cancer! FFS, sister, and you were being paid a salary by the state?

RealJohn · 21-01-2015 3:52pm

spurious wrote: »

Those of us who have actually worked in that sort of place are well capable of forming an informed opinion as to what was likely said.

In what sort of place? Unless you know way school it is (maybe you do) then you don't know what kind of place it is. You're just making assumptions based on what's been reported in the media.

If we're going to make assumptions, I'm going to assume that it was a private educate together Gaelscoil and they decided to have a nun on the panel for the sake of inclusivity. The 'homos' she supposedly referred to were the other members of the interview panel who were also lovers. How's that for an assumption?

RealJohn · 21-01-2015 3:54pm

Armelodie wrote: »

Sadly the ethos IS a very blatant excuse for blatant discrimination because of section 37 (contravening the 9 grounds of discrimination).

Does anyone really know what this nebulous thing called 'the ethos' is, its only pseudo business speak for being a 'lovely caring school'.

I can understand giving preference for a teacher who has been through a school as a past pupil or whatever. But taking about ethos being a definable thing may as well be talking about quantum physics. Hence my mockery of its use in legal cases!

You can't be serious, can you? You think 'ethos' is something mystical, "nebulous", difficult to define? It really isn't.

evolving_doors · 21-01-2015 5:11pm

RealJohn wrote: »

You can't be serious, can you? You think 'ethos' is something mystical, "nebulous", difficult to define? It really isn't.

Go on so... what is?

aunt aggie · 21-01-2015 8:25pm

RealJohn wrote: »

You can't be serious, can you? You think 'ethos' is something mystical, "nebulous", difficult to define? It really isn't.

I watched a Religion teacher tailor her cover letter to ethos of ETB, CoI and Catholic schools. It goes from hollistic development of the person, to respect for all faiths, to encouraging Christian values in modern world. Was very interesting.

School's have something they want to hear. That's the ethos.

Happily no one ever asks the Maths teacher about any of this

evolving_doors · 21-01-2015 8:46pm

aunt aggie wrote: »

I watched a Religion teacher tailor her cover letter to ethos of ETB, CoI and Catholic schools. It goes from hollistic development of the person, to respect for all faiths, to encouraging Christian values in modern world. Was very interesting.

School's have something they want to hear. That's the ethos.

Happily no one ever asks the Maths teacher about any of this

Thats my point , the bold part above might as well be just saying ' we're different because we're extra nicer than those other schools with a different ethos'. When in actual fact its just mission statement hogwash.

Would any school be against the above 'selling points'... of course not. But when it comes to discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation/marital status the old 'ethos' is pulled out of the bag in court (if it even gets that far!).

Funnily enough I've never seen 'we dont want gays/pregnant students/divorced teachers' or whatever in their policy documents on ethos or blurb on 'about the school' on their website. Wonder why?

"What about the homos?"

Comments