Is the dole too generous?

Permabear · 24-01-2009 1:41pm

This post has been deleted.

turgon · 24-01-2009 2:25pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I fully agree with donegalfellas sentiments. The dole should not be a one size fits all payment. It should be means tested based on what you really need. For example Im technically unemployed at the moment, so I could claim it if I wanted. But I live at home so I get free food, free phone, free everything. Basically all the dole money would be spent on cds, books, and beer if I were getting it.

But that is not what the dole is about, the dole is about allowing you to survive while looking for a job. Your expenses should be examined to see what you need. Like why would I want a job if I can get 200 euro free from the state. Thus, if the dole was on a needs basis, people would be encourages to get a proper job so they could live on a wants basis.

Think about it this way - unemployed college dropout sponging off parents (me) gets the same as unemployed single mother looking after a kid. How is that sensible?

oh well , okay · 24-01-2009 3:21pm

Do you believe that taxpayers should cover all your expenses if you become unemployed? That we should pay for you to have a mobile phone and a landline phone and broadband internet access? That we should even cover the costs of you playing football?

Btw, it's possible to live healthily on far less than €50 worth of food a week.

As for your mortgage—surely you've heard of mortgage protections schemes for exactly this eventuality?

1) I am a tax payer and have been for 17 yrs . I think the state should help me cover my expenses as I have contributed to the state all my life . These are not luxuries in this day and age , they are tools which I can use to find work plus the contracts I'm tied into don't expire because I'm unemployed .

2) €50 groceries - this covers food , cleaning products for the home and for me .I will be off the welfare in no time if I stink and am unshaven .

3) I didn't put mortgage expenses down on my list but FYI I hold life and ill health insurance on my policy and it costs me a pretty penny to do so . I decided against unemployment insurance as it was an extra €25 pm and would only cover me for 6 months . In fairness I know of no-one with this insurance on their policy.

You would have people who lose their jobs lose their phones , internet access , live on cheap food and give up their one social activity per week . These people are not criminals .

There seems to be a lot of nonsense on this thread about people being able to survive comfortably on €100 a week . I exclude you from this DF but if you're at home with Mammy and Daddy then I'm sure it's more than possible . I went through college on £61 pw no problem but when you've no safety net behind you things get a bit more serious .

It's all well and good to complain about people from NI coming here to claim the dole and to complain about scroungers on the dole but these are in the minority and these are results of a bad system , complain about the system fair enough I'll happily agree on that point .

our €200 per week dole now equals or even exceeds the average Northern Irish factory worker's wage of £180 a week. Meanwhile, the dole in the UK is only about £60 sterling a week, about one third of what an Irish dole recipient receives.

So to use your figures if the NI average Ind wage is £180 and the dole is one third of this at £60 then that's fine and dandy but if our avg ind wage is €627 ( June 2007 source CSO ) and our dole is less than a third at €204 then we're paying out too much dole !

Permabear · 24-01-2009 4:14pm

This post has been deleted.

dolliemix · 24-01-2009 5:37pm

I just wonder why I am working and paying taxes to indirectly pay for somebody elses luxuries when I cant even afford them myself!

Sorry guys - but where mortgages are concerned some of you might just have to consider renting like the rest of us!

Kintarō Hattori · 24-01-2009 5:45pm

My girlfriend was working for the last four years. When she was working with Ulster Bank she was taking home about €2000pm. Now that she's on jobseekers benefit she's taking home about €800pm and not claiming any other benefits. Between paying for rent, food, electricity, clothing (when needed) and any other bills that crop up and which I haven't thought of, it becomes very very tight trying to survive on €200 per week.

I can only surmize that those folk who say €200pw is too much have never been on the dole or are working in a relatively well paid job and have no experience of what they are talking about.

Mena · 24-01-2009 5:55pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I thought that was what PRSI was for and the reason we paid it.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Bit of a strawman argument here. He's paid his PRSI so what he does with the money is entirely up to him. It's not as if the state has suddenly taken out a broadband contract for him.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Sure, but what about paying rent, what if you're married, and have kids?

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They're not. See above.

Bottom line is 200pw would be great for some, for others it sends them straight into the gutter, and provides even more incentive to find a job. For the former, I don't know how we fix it, the long term unemployed... For the latter, it's a stop gap for them, a pitiful one, that they have actually paid for in the form of PRSI contributions.

oh well , okay · 24-01-2009 6:04pm

Would you be better off if you had been able to save the equivalent amount of money into an investment fund

No have you seen the state of investment funds recently .

and an unemployment insurance program?

I would consider that I have for the last 17 yrs .

If every unemployed person is entitled to have a mobile phone, landline phone, and broadband internet paid for by the state, where do we stop? Where exactly is the dividing line between necessity and luxury?

I'm not saying I'm entitled to them . I have them and they are on contracts which have to be paid . 85% of households have home phones and 87% of people have mobile phones - hardly a luxury .

Honestly, I could eat well, shave, bathe, and keep my home clean for a lot less than €200 a month.

Fair play to ya , I am in fact a married man with child and a weekly bill of around €120 , a quick check on the NCA website shows the average grocery bill to be €150 so I thought €50 to be reasonable for a single man . This figure was quoted earlier arguing for the reduction in dole and you didn't argue it then so I presumed it was acceptable .

I'm asking whether it's legitimate to ask the hardworking taxpayer to fund the costs of mobile phones, landline phones, broadband internet

See above . I'm not purchasing these items with welfare merely maintaining their contracts .The vast majority on the dole have been hard working tax payers themselves . It's social welfare , it's a safety net .

and social lives

I quoted €10 a week from €204 on 1 social activity and you would begrudge this ?

The average industrial wage in Northern Ireland is £418 a week, so the dole in the North would be 14 percent of that.

Fair point well made , consider me suitably chastised .

I still maintain that €204 is not an exhorbident amount. In 2 minutes I ran up a bill of €170 with no mortgage/rent payments included . You may consider some luxuries to be in there but the fact that you argue €10pw to be unfair to spend on a social life speaks volumes.

If we were to lower the dole to €100pw I could afford to feed myself and keep the lights on , very little else . I would lose my car , home phone , mobile phone . I am now much less likely to gain employment but fair enough you've an extra penny on every pound you earn .

Seems to me the debate is heading more towards an American welfare system as opposed to an Irish/European system . If people consider a home phone to be a luxury then fair enough head for the American system .

Jesus Wept · 24-01-2009 6:32pm

oh well , okay wrote: »

Haven't been on the dole in 15 yrs but here's my weekly expenses ......

car ins ..... €10pw
car tax ..... €10pw
petrol ..... €20pw need the car , I live in the country .
food ......... €50pw I gotta eat
electricity .. €15pw need lights and gotta wash me clothes
gas ........... €10pw need heat , hot water
coal etc ..... €15pw need more heat in the sitting room
b'band ....... €5pw need the internet to find a new job
home ph... . €10pw need the house phone to ring around for work
mobile ....... .€10pw need to be contactable
bin tag ....... €5pw gotta put out the trash
footie ..........€10pw have to pay to use the pitch

There's €170 without really thinking about it .

I'm left with €34 to pay a mortgage , cover any medical / dentist bills , service / repair the car , upkeep the house / garden and buy clothes .

I'd be living the life of Riley on the dole I tell ya !!

A car is a Luxury - You shouldn't expect to be able to run/afford one on the dole.
Food - you could reduce this by a bit.
You don't need a home phone if you have a mobile phone.
20e per month on vodafone will get you free 087 to 087 calls, buy a txt bundle in order to txt non 087 numbers, you can also use your broadband/vodafone website to send free txts.

Do you live with people or alone? House, Apartment?
You are spending 173e per month on ESB/Gas/Coal? For one person, that's exhorbitant.

oh well , okay · 24-01-2009 7:06pm

- A car is a Luxury - You shouldn't expect to be able to run/afford one on the dole.
- Food - you could reduce this by a bit.
- You don't need a home phone if you have a mobile phone.
- 20e per month on vodafone will get you free 087 to 087 calls, buy a txt bundle in order to txt non 087 numbers, you can also use your broadband/vodafone website to send free txts.
Do you live with people or alone? House, Apartment?
You are spending 173e per month on ESB/Gas/Coal? For one person, that's exhorbitant.

In fairness I'm a married man with a child living in a double income home. If I were a single man and if I were made redundant these would be the expenses facing me.

You say I don't need a car , fair enough . I live 3 miles outside the nearest town with no bus service available to me . How do I go to work if I get a job ? A bike will get me into town but our local industrial area is 11 miles away . Up a hill , downhill all the way home though . The car allows me to search for work in a 60 mile radius . No car and I can only apply for jobs I can reach by bus which narrows my chances considerably .

Like I've said phones are on contract so I'm stuck with them for the time being .

220 people have been let go in my work place over the last 2 years and a local factory is letting another 100 go in June . I'm a lucky one as neither I nor my wife have been affected but a lot of colleagues have either been let go or had their wives let go recently. The fact is these people need that 200 a week , they've all paid tax and have lost jobs through no fault of their own .

The attitude on here annoys me tbh , the majority on the dole have been hard working tax payers for years but recently find themselves in hard times but the attitude here seems to be that the system is being milked , you're only entitled to just get by or you're lazy . I'm sure this is true in some cases but why halve everyones payments to encourage these people off the dole , why not tweak the system so they're found out .

RiverWilde · 24-01-2009 7:18pm

The begruding attitude displayed on here towards people unlucky enough to be on the dole is quite surprising.

If you have a job why the hell would you begrudge someone else a hand up by the state?

It seems that some people on here would rather people wound up living in a ghetto with their children in care and probably scarred for life.

Which is better - help someone who has lost a job find a new skill, career path, job etc and survive the economic loss and ultimately benefit society in the long term or allow market forces to crucify them and their families?

It is the states duty to my mind to protect the vulnerable in society. That's what it's there for otherwise where is the rationale for the state in the first place?

Riv

thebman · 24-01-2009 7:49pm

hobochris wrote: »

The dole should be at a level where people on it can just about live. If they want more money then they should get a job.

Where? I'd love a new job, currently looking. Have a job but will have to work about 12 hours a day and get paid 9-5 to keep it for little more than minimum wage.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Why not review the other parts of the Social Welfare benefit system instead?
For instance, why does a double-earning couple in the 41% (+1% levy of course) tax bracket receive child benefit per child? Why should people already earning well qualify, without even a means test, for a benefit when they already have money to raise those children?

How many actually claim it that are in that bracket? Would it be worth reforming?

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Example:
Married professional Couple.
He earns €45,000 gross pa.
She earns €40,000 gross pa.

Two kids (5 and 7yrs old). One of them in private schooling.
4-Bed House.
Two cars (08 and 06 reg).
Two vacation trips pa. One abroad. One in Ireland.

You think they should receive a welfare payment every month?

No but are they actually claiming it?

How much is rent supplement? Is it depending on how much rent you pay or whats the story? I never looked into it.

turgon · 24-01-2009 7:59pm

oh well , okay wrote: »

why not tweak the system so they're found out .

In what way though?

RiverWilde wrote: »

The begruding attitude displayed on here towards people unlucky enough to be on the dole is quite surprising.

To be honest Riv, Ive been unemployed for the last 13 weeks due to an injury, and Im pretty sure I could have walked into the dole office and got money if I wanted. But I didnt because I live at home and I dont need it that much. But if it was means tested and they were like here take 20 euro to give to your parents for keeping you up id be cool. But I wasnt going to milk 200 euro when I didnt need it.

Unemployment benefit is great, and I hope there wont be a time when ill really need it. Im just saying that it needs to be rationalized and means tested.

oh well , okay · 24-01-2009 8:12pm

So your using the money from you unemployment benefit to drive to your employment

Try re-reading the sentence I think you'll find there's an if in it .Plus I've stated several times that I'm in full employment I'm only talking hypotheticals ;although my expenses would be real .

turgon · 24-01-2009 8:19pm

oh well , okay wrote: »

Try re-reading the sentence I think you'll find there's an if in it .Plus I've stated several times that I'm in full employment I'm only talking hypotheticals ;although my expenses would be real .

Sorry

Permabear · 24-01-2009 11:38pm

This post has been deleted.

CamperMan · 24-01-2009 11:44pm

Irlbo wrote: »

The answer is no,try and live on it for a week

I did try it a few years ago... we were rolling in it... we got dole money, rent paid for, medical cards.... and we were able to save money...., Yes... the dole is too generous and should be cut by 50%.

Before you start moaning, you really should try and live off the dole in the UK... now that is tough!

Mr.Micro · 24-01-2009 11:54pm

CamperMan wrote: »

I did try it a few years ago... we were rolling in it... we got dole money, rent paid for, medical cards.... and we were able to save money...., Yes... the dole is too generous and should be cut by 50%.

Before you start moaning, you really should try and live off the dole in the UK... now that is tough!

Sure who knows if things get any worse or prices go any higher here we may all be on the dole and then we can all see how we get on. I believe in the dole and when it comes to looking after children when a person is out of work there is not enough money for food,clothes,bills, etc, and the dole does not go far enough. I do not know anybody that got rich on the dole.

CamperMan · 25-01-2009 12:12am

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Sure who knows if things get any worse or prices go any higher here we may all be on the dole and then we can all see how we get on. I believe in the dole and when it comes to looking after children when a person is out of work there is not enough money for food,clothes,bills, etc, and the dole does not go far enough. I do not know anybody that got rich on the dole.

you mention children.... you get child benefit for that..

My older brother is on the dole, 3 kids, and he can afford his booze, fags, DVD's, takeaways, taxis, new washing machines and tumble driers... broadband, sky TV..... and that is just the dole money, he does not work on the side, his rent is 700 a month and most of that is paid by the social welfare, if you tally it all up, with dole, medical cards, rent allowance, child benefits... I bet it's well over €500 a week... and what job would pay that...

I know others on the dole that live the good life on it... and they don't have to worry about where the money comes from, they just get it each week

SIMPLE.... if you are on the dole, you should not be able to afford luxury items like sky TV, takeaways, booze, fags, taxis, etc. you should have to work for them...

what the government should be doing is giving the people on the dole €20 cash per week, then the rest in tesco food vouchers...

CamperMan · 25-01-2009 12:17am

the last time I was on the dole (many years ago),... we could save between €50 & €100 per week (we don't smoke or drink!!!)...

Kintarō Hattori · 25-01-2009 12:57am

CamperMan wrote: »

the last time I was on the dole (many years ago),... we could save between €50 & €100 per week (we don't smoke or drink!!!)...

Well then you were very lucky. I know my GF certainly can't save anything from it. It literally just covers the bills.

CamperMan · 25-01-2009 1:01am

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Well then you were very lucky. I know my GF certainly can't save anything from it. It literally just covers the bills.

tell her to sell the car and stop buying the designer clothes and fancy makeup....

CamperMan · 25-01-2009 1:03am

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Well then you were very lucky. I know my GF certainly can't save anything from it. It literally just covers the bills.

you know, the more I mention it, the more it seems to be a better prospect for me on the dole than being self employed ... I might just go and sign on the dole Monday and have no worries...

dolliemix · 25-01-2009 1:12am

CamperMan wrote: »

you know, the more I mention it, the more it seems to be a better prospect for me on the dole than being self employed ... I might just go and sign on the dole Monday and have no worries...

Too right

Unfortunately very true at this time. There are many people out there trying to keep there businesses alive and knowing that they're losing possibly thousands every week.

A simpler life would be to go the dole.

Sad thing is these people who are going further and further into debt are still paying taxes for people who are on the dole complaining that they're not getting enough.

CamperMan · 25-01-2009 1:21am

dolliemix wrote: »

Too right

Unfortunately very true at this time. There are many people out there trying to keep there businesses alive and knowing that they're losing possibly thousands every week.

A simpler life would be to go the dole.

Sad thing is these people who are going further and further into debt are still paying taxes for people who are on the dole complaining that they're not getting enough.

If I went on the dole, I would be far better off, guaranteed

TheNog · 25-01-2009 3:22am

RiverWilde wrote: »

The begruding attitude displayed on here towards people unlucky enough to be on the dole is quite surprising.

I dont think the majority of people here are bearing a grudge on people on the dole. If there is anyone who does have that grudge are just being insensitive.

RiverWilde wrote: »

If you have a job why the hell would you begrudge someone else a hand up by the state?

No one is against a hand up but I am against a hand-out which some of us think the current dole rate is. There is no incentive to find work for the lifers on dole.

RiverWilde wrote: »

It seems that some people on here would rather people wound up living in a ghetto with their children in care and probably scarred for life.

Not true but it is a little sensationalist view of this thread.

RiverWilde wrote: »

Which is better - help someone who has lost a job find a new skill, career path, job etc and survive the economic loss and ultimately benefit society in the long term or allow market forces to crucify them and their families?

Help by all means, maybe through community service to teach new skills but current state of our economy we cannot afford these handouts for much longer. So I say reduce the dole or at least have it means tested so as to reduce the risk of damaging the economy further in the short and long term.

RiverWilde wrote: »

It is the states duty to my mind to protect the vulnerable in society. That's what it's there for otherwise where is the rationale for the state in the first place?

Riv

It certainly is the states responsibility to protect the vulnerable but we cannot support an unrealistic position any longer that we could have a cuple of years ago.

My 2 cent and remember I was once on the dole myself and lived on alot less money.

Permabear · 25-01-2009 3:25am

This post has been deleted.

thebman · 25-01-2009 11:22am

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well if you want to work that out, you'd have to actually tally up the costs for each.

I know the rent supplement or whatever its called wouldn't actually cover my rent in the cheapest accomodation I could find and I don't live in Dublin, I commute in each day to work.

I think some of the dole money should be transferred to rent supplement and rent supplement should be monitored to see how much each person needs for rent with an overall cap to keep people from living in expensive accomodation since the state shouldn't carry that burden.

Overall though, the Dole should really cover someone temporarily for a few months to live in the house they live in when they are laid off so they can focus on getting a new job. If after a few months they are still unemployed then they should be made adjust to cheap accomodation and get rid of all the luxuries.

At the end of the day, the person that turns up looking like a hobo and smell worse isn't going to get a job.

Permabear · 25-01-2009 2:01pm

This post has been deleted.

turgon · 25-01-2009 2:48pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yeah but a problem is if they genuinely cant find work at all.

Permabear · 25-01-2009 2:53pm

This post has been deleted.

thebman · 25-01-2009 3:12pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Most people in this country only have one language though which cuts down on options for places to work.

I wouldn't have any problems working in another country but I don't speak their language.

I speak some French but their fooked too :P Come to think of it, which EU country won't be fooked?

Danno · 25-01-2009 3:18pm

Another element of our society is the amount of drug dealers and drug users claiming benefit. IMHO, if anyone is convicted while in reciept of a social welfare payment should have all money cut, given food stamps instead.

Permabear · 25-01-2009 3:18pm

This post has been deleted.

thebman · 25-01-2009 3:27pm

Danno wrote: »

Another element of our society is the amount of drug dealers and drug users claiming benefit. IMHO, if anyone is convicted while in reciept of a social welfare payment should have all money cut, given food stamps instead.

Maybe but I'd rather they be forced to do community service to earn the food stamps until they find a proper job TBH. Don't give them the spare time for crime!

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yeah but they learn young and like you said, our education system isn't great for foreign languages.

The older you get, the harder it is to learn. They also have much higher exposure to English every day in their nation. I mean a lot of the media they are exposed to is in English and it makes it incredibly easier to learn that way.

I was very good at French but I forget it because I have no exposure. When I run into a French person it starts to come back if they start talking to me.

That is something we lose out on in Europe. It easier for them to come here than the other way around.

Permabear · 25-01-2009 3:51pm

This post has been deleted.

thebman · 25-01-2009 3:59pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

True it just reduces the likelyhood of people doing it. It takes balls to move to another country when you can't talk to the people there without them being willing to speak their second language in their own country.

I don't think it would go down too well in France for example

Most businesses would work primarily in English if a multi-national but you are definitely going to need the native language too. No way you'd get away with that one. You'd have to do classes here to learn and then go in my opinion and hope you pick up the rest and work out your problems in the first few weeks.

SAVE_ME.222 · 25-01-2009 4:29pm

PRSI - if you are gonna cut the dole, you have to reduce PRSI also. I've paid over €4000, not to mention what my employers have contibuted, since beginning work. I could claim the full dole for 20 weeks and not have taken a cent from the state.

Kintarō Hattori · 25-01-2009 6:17pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I hope to god you don't ever wind up being able to make those decisions. My GF has been unemployed now for about 3 months. She's gone to plenty of interviews, gone to just about every recruitment agency there is and applied for more jobs on the net than I could count. People simply aren't employing at the moment and it's as simple as that. I can assure you that she would much rather be out working than spending her time at home.

She is at least being productive at home and is studying for the QFA diploma while she's not working so she'll be more qualified when things do pick up.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So you want to ship the unemployed out of Ireland and put the problem elsewhere. You are aware aren't you that this is a GLOBAL recession and most other countries within the EU are in the same position.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Why can't we do the same? English is a global language and most other countires within the EU speak it to some degree. What use is polish in france or slovakian in spain?
I agree that far too much emphasis is placed on irish and our children should learn a language that will benefit them within the EU.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Your arguements do really seem rather poorly thought out. Because 'irish people speak english they should have a fair shot of communicating in whatever country they wind up in'......... while english is a global language and it can get you by in a multi-national company you still need to speak the language of the country you're going to be in. You would need to educate this 'workforce' you are talking about in multiple languages which would be very very difficult to implement. What's the guarantee of getting them a job in the country you've sent them too?

Permabear · 26-01-2009 1:06am

This post has been deleted.

oh well , okay · 26-01-2009 2:02am

We now have 300,000 people on the live register, and that figure is forecast to rise to 400,000 by the end of 2009.

Would this be because an extra 100,000 people just got lazy all of a sudden or because the jobs just aren't there anymore.

They are exploiting the sharp increase in unemployment benefit on this side of the border which has seen the weekly unemployment benefit rising to over €200 while, on the northern side, the weekly figure is £60.50p sterling.

This is an anomaly and using it as a basis of an argument to halve welfare payments here just doesn't hold water.

Just curious but do posters here fell the old age pension should be reduced to €100pw ?

This'll be my last word on the matter .... Probably.

Like I said earlier 320 let go in my locality recently mostly middle aged men & women who paid tax all their adult lives. These people have commitments, responsibilities to honour. Some posters on here would see these people try to survive on €100pw after years of paying into the system. Now I'll make a presumption here that most of these posters have enjoyed a relatively free education for themselves quite recently from this very same system these people paid into to.

By all means let's look at social welfare payments but let's do it after we look at ministerial pay/pensions/expenses , then let's look at public/civil service pay/pensions. Let's look at what can be trimmed in the H.S.E , E.S.B etc . Take a look at decentralisation , partnership. Let's look again at some of the capital projects. I realise this is all very simplistic and flawed but why just jump right in there with a halving of social welfare payments. Let's start at the top and work our way down to the vulnerable in society.

There's a storm brewing and to put welfare recipients at the brunt of this storm is to my mind abhorrent. We all need to take a hit, be it a pay cut/freeze or higher taxes. Let's look at reducing welfare payments after we've made reductions elsewhere and pray to God that we don't see a reduction like what's being suggested by some posters on here.

K-9 · 26-01-2009 3:00am

SAVE_ME.222 wrote: »

PRSI - if you are gonna cut the dole, you have to reduce PRSI also. I've paid over €4000, not to mention what my employers have contibuted, since beginning work. I could claim the full dole for 20 weeks and not have taken a cent from the state.

No, it's Pay Related Social Insurance and if you pay 6%, includes a 2% Health and Employment levy. It pays for SW and Health so cutting it actually reduces the money available!

Its an interesting topic and I can see both sides. I have to wonder why it's £60 under a Labour Govt. in the UK though.

Our minimum wage here is €340 odd, dole and rent allowance adds to not far off that.

One of those isn't right and considering our minimum wage is high, that tends to suggest the wage is not the problem.

Permabear · 26-01-2009 3:12am

This post has been deleted.

oh well , okay · 26-01-2009 4:43am

I'm afraid that the "anomaly" is the situation in which we currently find ourselves, in which our dole has inflated to three times what it is across the border.

I still maintain that the difference in living costs and the devaluing of sterling have in part led to this anomaly which is no reason to lower dole payments to NI levels.

What would you personally lower welfare payments to DF and would you similarly lower the state pension ?

But we need to be rational and understand that slashing the compensation packages of 35 lavishly paid ministers is more an issue of leading by example—it will not have a significant macroeconomic impact. If 400,000 people were unemployed, a mere €1 reduction in the dole would save the state €20 million a year.

And €10 would save €200m but their would still be a huge hole in the public finances. Like I say introduce other measures first. I mentioned more than ministerial salaries as I'm sure you're aware.

Savings can be made elsewhere for the time being, freeze welfare now and revisit it in a years time but don't cut it now and don't do it to the levels being bandied around here.

The reality is if you halve welfare now people will default on their mortgages, they'll lose their homes, their cars, their dignity even. What would the cost of this be to the state ?

People on here can say sure let them rent like the rest of us but the reality is these people have homes that could only be sold for a fraction of what they were worth only a couple of years ago. If they default now they're evicted, in negative equity and claiming rent allowance. They're now in a hole they're not getting out of for years. Poverty trap I believe is the proper term.

We as a state can bail out the banks to the tune of 5.5b - 7.5b and counting, quite possibly we should, we will all pay the price for this over the next few years but like I've said let's start paying at the top end of society and work our way down.

sceptre · 26-01-2009 4:57am

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You sure? It's quite a while ago but in 2001 if I remember rightly it was about 145 and was increased to about 170 about 2 years later.

Permabear · 26-01-2009 12:29pm

This post has been deleted.

Macha · 26-01-2009 12:45pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Again, it is not fair to compare to sterling prices as the Euro is unusually strong at the moment.

You also have yet to exclude inflation from those figures. Taken from this website (www.worldwide-tax.com/ireland/ire_infl.asp), Ireland's annual inflation rates were:

2000 5.6%
2001 4.9%
2002 4.7%
2003 3.5%
2004 2.2%
2005 2.5%
2006 4.1%

It doesn't accout for all of it but the bare figures given above are misleading.

Permabear · 26-01-2009 1:04pm

This post has been deleted.

Macha · 26-01-2009 1:11pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There's also the issue of purchasing power..not sure how to figure that one out. I'm not trying to catch you out, just trying to see the true value of the amounts.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Interesting..

AlekSmart · 26-01-2009 1:11pm

Honestly, our monolingualism is a stunning indictment of a school system that expends most of its effort on teaching Irish, a language that is utterly useless when it comes to European integration

I`m not so sure it`s ONLY the system.

I have for quite some time now been of the opinion that a substantial number of the "Tiger era" wonderkinder have simply been raised in a form of aspirational vacuum by parents who fell hook,line and sinker into the Anglo-Irish ethos.

Threads elsewhere mention the presence of "Educational Inflation",a process which began when society felt emboldened to delete the notion of failing at any given task.

Thuis we arrived at the point where a student found it IMPOSSIBLE to fail in their State Examinations.
Instead we devised a tortuous system to allocate some form of grade to even the most abject educational failures.
(Note I do not aspire to investigate the causes of these failures,merely their existance)

This has quite rapidly percolated through to the higher educational sectors with some of the Universities apparently becoming worried at how the World (ie: Employers) view those Irish sourced Degrees.

In a great deal of cases our educational system has made available a wide range of courses to allow for diversification and intellectual expansion but these have been somewhat lacking in achieving stirring results.

What appears lacking is any form of motivation of the soul.
It manifests itself in the "here comes the weekend" syndrome which appears to now extend to the entire week.

This lack of motivation,or laziness to put it another way,also exists within the greater body as portrayed in the Dole issue.

As far as I can make out,it`s not the extent of the actual payment that`s at issue but the notion that once in this system you`re safe.

Admission to the Welfare System for many is akin to getting past the Bouncer at the niteclub door....if you can conceal your white socks you`re away in a hack.

The real continuing and expanding drain on our reducing little pot is the manner in which our SW system openself wide for the most basic of fraudulent claims.

The combining of two seperate allowances and associated knock-on entitlements by a like-minded couple can be a very fruitful indeed and is IMO a rapidly growing problem (For EVERYBODY else)

A young unmarried couple with a small child can with a wee bit of application, or guidance from a sibling who has gone before,learn to combine their resources and strike for gold.

1 Lone Parent Allowance.
1 Jobseekers Allowance.
1 Private Rented Accomodation Allowance.
1 Medical Card
Misc Child Related allowances x by number of children if applicable.

In many cases these allowances are being used to fund a practically "normal" cohabitational family with the male partner usually doing a "wee bit" to make ends meet......

The natural progression then is to "Go On the list" for a Local Authority house which of course will be under a far more socially lenient arrangement re Rent and associated responsibilities of home ownership.

In short once the system can be tuned by the savvy applicant there is little or no incentive to bother gettin out of the (King Size) bed any morning,unless it`s to collect a few bob that a lad owes one........

Somebody should write a book on it

Is the dole too generous?

Comments