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[Constitutional Convention] Other items for the convention to cover

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    #32
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Xantia wrote: »
    As things stand if you register your name for voting you automatically then have to pay home tax.
    ...what?


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    #33
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,008 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Because I don't trust Enda to write it.

    That's (potentially) why we have a constitutional convention...


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    #34
    RangeR
    Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    That's (potentially) why we have a constitutional convention...

    It has been suggested to the Steering Group a few months ago that the Constitutional Convention be renewed next year, with the same secretariat [as they have the knowledge of running this one] and a new set of "66". The purpose, to widen their scope.


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    #35
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    But wouldn't it be possible to make the Dail sovereign rather then the people? Not saying I'd agree with it but it would be a possible solution.


    Not without a referendum.


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    #36
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Not without a referendum.
    Or unless the current constitution was scrapped and another one drawn up.


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    #37
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Or unless the current constitution was scrapped and another one drawn up.

    Which would also need a referendum. Really I dont see why we would need to do this anyway, our current constitution is quite good, that its been drawn upon by other countries as a basis for their own constitutions on gaining independance shows this.

    A constitution should reflect the society that it is for, when ours was drawn up it was quite appropriate for the country at the time. As our country has changed over time, the constitution has too. I don't see anything wrong with this or why it should not continue.


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    #38
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    Atheist Ireland has made two submissions to the Convention under this item on their agenda. Our recommendations in these submission are:

    A Secular Constitution For a Pluralist People

    (a) Remove specific references to God, such as all authority coming from the Holy Trinity and our obligations to our divine Lord Jesus Christ (Preamble); powers of government deriving under God from the people (6); blasphemy being an offence (40); the homage of public worship being due to Almighty God and the state holding his name in reverence (44); and the glory of God (Closing Line).

    (b) Replace all religious oaths for public officeholders with a single neutral declaration that does not refer to either the religious or nonreligious philosophical beliefs of the person. As well as President (12), Council of State (31) and Judges (34), please note that there is also in practice a religious oath for Taoiseach, Tánaiste, Chair of the Dail and Seanad, and Attorney General, as these officeholders are obliged to be members of the Council of State and are thus obliged to swear the oath for that office.

    (c) Amend the Articles on Fundamental Rights to explicitly give equal protection to religious and nonreligious philosophical believers, particularly where the Articles are unduly influenced by Roman Catholic teachings. This includes the Articles on equality (40), the family (41), education (42) and religion (44). Frame Articles generally so that they are based on human rights and duties and not on religious beliefs.

    Economic, Social and Cultural Rights Without Discrimination

    We ask the Convention to add the protection of ESC Rights onto its agenda, and to recommend to the Government to examine how best to protect ESC rights through the Constitution, without discrimination on any of the grounds listed in the ICESCR.


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    #39
    RangeR
    Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Don't forget, we are doing a "Roadshow" this month and next. I posted details in another thread.

    But you can read the press release on the website.


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    #40
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,008 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Which would also need a referendum. Really I dont see why we would need to do this anyway, our current constitution is quite good, that its been drawn upon by other countries as a basis for their own constitutions on gaining independance shows this..

    How so? Which countries? Anyway, if that is so, why not keep the 'quite good' bits for the new constitution, rewording them for the 21st century, and chuck out all the archaic, sexist rubbish...


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    #41
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,469 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    How so? Which countries? Anyway, if that is so, why not keep the 'quite good' bits for the new constitution, rewording them for the 21st century, and chuck out all the archaic, sexist rubbish...

    the Indian one if i'm not mistaken drew some points from ours.


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    #42
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    But wouldn't it be possible to make the Dail sovereign rather then the people? Not saying I'd agree with it but it would be a possible solution.
    It would be possible to amend the constitution so as to allow, for example, a super-majority of the Oireachtas to make amendments without removing the sovereignty of the people.

    The sovereignty of the People simply refers to the font of ultimate power (insofar as it is not supernatural!)

    The sovereignty of the people is therefore a very basic declaration... "We the People... give to ourselves this
    Constitution" is an important principle, but would not prevent an amendment empowering the Oireachtas to amend the Constitution, just as the sovereignty of "we the People" in the US constitution does not prevent the same.

    Meanwhile...
    Sparks wrote: »
    As to suggestions:
    - Make the party whip system unconstitutional
    - Create a means for allowing the electorate to force a binding referendum on a current policy issue
    This would give real meaning to the sovereignty of the People. But why would the Government ever agree to putting this amendment to a referendum? Joseph Heller would certainly have approved of such a farce.


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    #43
    RangeR
    Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Michael Nugent wrote: »
    Atheist Ireland has made two submissions to the Convention under this item on their agenda. Our recommendations in these submission are:

    A Secular Constitution For a Pluralist People

    (a) Remove specific references to God, such as all authority coming from the Holy Trinity and our obligations to our divine Lord Jesus Christ (Preamble); powers of government deriving under God from the people (6); blasphemy being an offence (40); the homage of public worship being due to Almighty God and the state holding his name in reverence (44); and the glory of God (Closing Line).

    (b) Replace all religious oaths for public officeholders with a single neutral declaration that does not refer to either the religious or nonreligious philosophical beliefs of the person. As well as President (12), Council of State (31) and Judges (34), please note that there is also in practice a religious oath for Taoiseach, Tánaiste, Chair of the Dail and Seanad, and Attorney General, as these officeholders are obliged to be members of the Council of State and are thus obliged to swear the oath for that office.

    (c) Amend the Articles on Fundamental Rights to explicitly give equal protection to religious and nonreligious philosophical believers, particularly where the Articles are unduly influenced by Roman Catholic teachings. This includes the Articles on equality (40), the family (41), education (42) and religion (44). Frame Articles generally so that they are based on human rights and duties and not on religious beliefs.

    Economic, Social and Cultural Rights Without Discrimination

    We ask the Convention to add the protection of ESC Rights onto its agenda, and to recommend to the Government to examine how best to protect ESC rights through the Constitution, without discrimination on any of the grounds listed in the ICESCR.

    Economic, Social and Cultural Rights was chosen to be the second of two "Any other Amendments". Please see here for discussion and to air your views.


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