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N7 - Newlands Cross upgrade

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Comments

  • #2
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Does anyone have a list of these groups, I am particularly interested in the finance partners and have heard that NO IRISH banks are involved save in one case .


  • #3
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Yeah one thing about all these PPPs is that its specifically worded to allow European banks to come on board. The Irish banks dont have enough money and I wouldnt trust them to loan me millions anyway.


  • #4
    Setanta_og
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭Setanta_og


    Have to say that the Newlands Cross Underpass/Overpass is one of the schemes recession or not that should be preceded with passing down that way last week at rush hour??? I was quite amazed at the back up of traffic as far south as St John’s Rd. What a pain for motorist who have enjoyed such a great drive from Waterford or Cork to the Capital to find this holdup before getting onto the superb M50. This project as the last part of the IU jigsaw must be a priority.


  • #5
    ilovegermany
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭ilovegermany


    According to the March 2010 PPP Update from the NRA the five groups left in the running at that stage for the N11/N7 PPP were:

    1. BAM Balfour Beatty
    2. Direct Route (including AIB, Roadbridge, Sisk and Lagan)
    3 Eurolink
    4. Gasta Roads (including Elliots and Wills)
    5. Atlantic Roads Group

    According to the NRA, the closing date for submissions from them was the 5th of March.

    Based on previous timelines contract award (subject to funding) should be middle 2011


  • #6
    dugganm07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭dugganm07


    Does the fact that these are going to be built through PPP mean that newlands cross will be tolled?


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  • #7
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    dugganm07 wrote: »
    Does the fact that these are going to be built through PPP mean that newlands cross will be tolled?

    No this was answered already.


  • #8
    nordydan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭nordydan


    dugganm07 wrote: »
    Does the fact that these are going to be built through PPP mean that newlands cross will be tolled?

    Putting a toll booth on Newlands Cross would be worse than the current arrangement for congestion at peak times


  • #9
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Newlands cross interchange needs a proper wider bridge to facilitate extra traffic on it. A 3 lane section here is to short sighted this close to Dublin city. Since most of the M7 needs widening and the DC carries 90,000 cars a day. Traffic backs up to the M50 and Rathcoole at peak times. It would make sense that the N7 should have room for 4 lanes each way to Citywest.

    A distrubuter road should be built from the luas P+R to free up weaving and local movements off the mainline and move the bus lane onto the distrubutor road also. I think the NRA/SDCC already included this in the plan now.

    The SDCC should seriously think about putting a decent R road to connect Belgard with the Luas park and ride and the Redcow. Either way it has to be done, the current LILO at the redcow is far to dangerous to keep there in the long term.


  • #10
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    Newlands cross interchange needs a proper wider bridge to facilitate extra traffic on it. A 3 lane section here is to short sighted this close to Dublin city. Since most of the M7 needs widening and the DC carries 90,000 cars a day. Traffic backs up to the M50 and Rathcoole at peak times. It would make sense that the N7 should have room for 4 lanes each way to Citywest.

    The reason the old thread was locked and this one created was you going on about this.

    The section to be bridge does not carry 90,000 PCUs through traffic. It never has, and it won't for 20+ years if ever. Turning traffic will not be crossing the bridge.

    You also made up the "90,000" figure by taking a traffic count from far further out and adding a fantasy figure for every junction further in. Ignoring the massive amount of journeys which leave the N7 at these junctions...


  • #11
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    MYOB wrote: »
    The reason the old thread was locked and this one created was you going on about this.

    The section to be bridge does not carry 90,000 PCUs through traffic. It never has, and it won't for 20+ years if ever. Turning traffic will not be crossing the bridge.

    Sorry but I dissagree. I posted facts from the road needs study graphs and NRA counters. I believe traffic is well over the figure you gave, and even the Counter at Johnstown has traffic with 75,000 2007/08. I have always made the point clear with regards to all N routes near Dublin increase dramatically closer to the city. Newlands cross is the busiest junction in the country. It deserves to be future proofed to at least 4 lanes wide each way, (even if not widened now) but room been provided seems logical.

    It's good to plan ahead. You can dissagree however.


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  • #12
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    Sorry but I dissagree. I posted facts from the road needs study graphs and NRA counters. I believe traffic is well over the figure you gave, and even the Counter at Johnstown has traffic with 75,000 2007/08. I have always made the point clear with regards to all N routes near Dublin increase dramatically closer to the city. Newlands cross is the busiest junction in the country. It deserves to be future proofed to at least 4 lanes wide each way, (even if not widened now) but room been provided seems logical.

    It's good to plan ahead. You can dissagree however. I think you played the bigger part in geting it locked, because you and others decided to attack me over it.



    You can "believe" the traffic is well over the actual figures given by the NRA, but its not. The NRAs figures are accurate. Your fantasies are not.

    As goes "increase dramatically closer to the city" - no, they don't. Traffic figures tail off heavily as they pass by large generators of journeys. Between Johnstown the N7 passes:

    *Rathcoole - Greenogue and Aerodrome Business Parks
    *Citywest
    *The Outer Ring Road, and hence Profile Park, Grange Castle

    I wouldn't be surprised if Citywest eats 10,000 PCUs of the figure seen at Johnstown alone.

    Then we come to NX itself, where about 15,000 PCUs leave to either the Belgard or Fonthill Roads. These PCUs will not cross the bridge.


    Three lanes each side is perfectly fine. The NRA is working off real world figures, not fantasy world ones.


  • #13
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    MYOB wrote: »
    You can "believe" the traffic is well over the actual figures given by the NRA, but its not. The NRAs figures are accurate. Your fantasies are not.

    As goes "increase dramatically closer to the city" - no, they don't. Traffic figures tail off heavily as they pass by large generators of journeys. Between Johnstown the N7 passes:

    *Rathcoole - Greenogue and Aerodrome Business Parks
    *Citywest
    *The Outer Ring Road, and hence Profile Park, Grange Castle

    I wouldn't be surprised if Citywest eats 10,000 PCUs of the figure seen at Johnstown alone.

    Then we come to NX itself, where about 15,000 PCUs leave to either the Belgard or Fonthill Roads. These PCUs will not cross the bridge.


    Three lanes each side is perfectly fine. The NRA is working off real world figures, not fantasy world ones.

    Look MYOB you can argue over this again. But I travel this road regulary and the road traffic increases all the way to the Redcow. Naas, Sallins, Rathcoole, Saggart,Kill, Newcastle are commuter towns. These are all along side the N7. Traffic increases because they residents in these areas work in the greater Dublin area.

    The NRA figures for Johnstown is 75,000. Kill would have higher traffic counts than the Johnstown one. The old counters pre upgraded N7, were 60,000 at Johnstowns and 64,000 at Kill. Even years ago, traffic backed up at the Rathcoole junction more than the kill or Johnstown lights. You may not be familar with this road. But having travelled it quite regulary. The kill lights had quese twice the lenght of the Johnstown junction. It simply means commuting traffic drops as it filters into the towns further away from Dublin.


    Obvously Newlands cross is the busiest of all of them. I don't like to use todays traffic figures to build roads, I like to future proof roads. I think your just arguing for the sake of it.


  • #14
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Oh, I'm fully familiar with the road. Moreso than you, it'd appear, as you seem to be oblivious to how much traffic leaves the road at NX, the ORR, Citywest and Rathcoole.

    More people work in Rathcoole/Newcastle in the business parks than live there and work in the city centre. Significantly more work in City West than live there and work in the CC.


  • #15
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    MYOB wrote: »
    Oh, I'm fully familiar with the road. Moreso than you, it'd appear, as you seem to be oblivious to how much traffic leaves the road at NX, the ORR, Citywest and Rathcoole.

    More people work in Rathcoole/Newcastle in the business parks than live there and work in the city centre. Significantly more work in City West than live there and work in the CC.

    I've stated the facts and actual demography of the road. I happen to use the road daily. I don't think you can vouch to know where all the commuters decide to go at NX, but the N7 traffic increases all the way to the redcow and peaks at the red cow junction itself.

    Kill has higher traffic volumes than Johnstown. Rathcoole and Saggart has higher volumes than Kill, Newlands cross has higher traffic than the rest. Red cow has even more. I pass this road regulary. And traffic does not drop at all at Newlands cross.

    These are the facts. It was the was the situation before the Naas road upgrades. Rathcoole traffic lights were a nightmare long before Kill and Johnstown were.

    Your just very wrong on your notions of Traffic at Rathcoole just dropping 10,000 :rolleyes: But we will aggree to dissagree on the latter.

    For common sense reasons (with the interurbans finishing, population increases along the N7, M7 widening to 3 lanes)
    I would like to see the Rathcoole to Redcow future proofed, with NX been wide enough for provision of a fourth lane in the future. I think it would be logical to make it wider anyhow.

    The same issue arised with the M50 SE section motorway. The contractor asked to build it at 3 lanes at a fraction of the cost of a 2 laner, but SDCC and the NRA declined, and here they are widening it as we speak.


  • #16
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    You've not stated a single fact other than a traffic count 15km down the road.

    And I never said Rathcoole drops 10k, I said City West probably drops 10k. And if a set of traffic lights was a "nightmare long before" another set of lights, does this not indicate there was a need to allow very long right turn times? To, oh, maybe let people in to the vast industrial estates at Rathcoole? Which have only been expanding, even recently.

    If traffic "doesn't drop at all" at NX why the need for a junction at all? This is about your most idiotic statement to date. Theres >20,000 PCUs on that section of the Belgard Road. Where are they coming from? Where are they going to?

    If traffic is equal either side of the junction, all it means is as many vehicles joined as left anyway. These vehicles will not cross the bridge

    Maybe, maybe, just for once you could accept your fantasies are unrealistic.


  • #17
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    MYOB wrote: »
    Oh, I'm fully familiar with the road. Moreso than you, it'd appear, as you seem to be oblivious to how much traffic leaves the road at NX, the ORR, Citywest and Rathcoole.

    More people work in Rathcoole/Newcastle in the business parks than live there and work in the city centre. Significantly more work in City West than live there and work in the CC.

    Wrong east facing slips are busier at Citywest, Rathcoole. NX. The ORR has busier West facing slips (to avoid the NX bottleneck and go up the N4 to Dublin and all the business parks up that road.

    Rathcoole traffic jumps extensiviely at the interchange there towards Dublin. Since Saggart, Rathcoole and Newcastle join the N7. The N7 here used to be a lane gane and the 3 laner used to end at Rathcoole. Simply because traffic grew at this point.


  • #18
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    Wrong east facing slips are busier at Citywest, Rathcoole. NX. The ORR has busier West facing slips (to avoid the NX bottleneck and go up the N4 to Dublin and all the business parks up that road.

    Traffic counts to prove same, please.

    Oh wait, not only do you not have any, you won't find any to support your assertion.



    Also, do you not see how its completely irrelevant if these create further Dublin bound traffic? They're opposite flows. Their peak flows are at opposite times. They do not add any further to peak time congestion on a given flow! And the use of any slip at NX is irrelevant as goes traffic *crossing the bridge* and just further shows that there is a huge amount of traffic that will not be crossing the bridge.


  • #19
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    MYOB wrote: »
    Traffic counts to prove same, please.

    Oh wait, not only do you not have any, you won't find any to support your assertion.



    Also, do you not see how its completely irrelevant if these create further Dublin bound traffic? They're opposite flows. Their peak flows are at opposite times. They do not add any further to peak time congestion on a given flow! And the use of any slip at NX is irrelevant as goes traffic *crossing the bridge* and just further shows that there is a huge amount of traffic that will not be crossing the bridge.

    You don't understand traffic flows as far as I can see.

    When I say east facing (Dublin side) It means traffic going east of coming from the east to and from the interchange.

    When I say the west facing (Limerick side) It means traffic to and from Rathcoole will go west towards Limerick.

    The fact is, Every interchange bar ORR has higher eastern direction flows. It's precisely why Kill is a bigger bottleneck than, Johnstown etc.

    It's just your not understanding the basics.

    The N7 is also a destination from the South and west of the country to Dublin, not NX. So 99percent of the traffic will continue on the N7, so will most of the Commuting traffic. Traffic doesnt back up that much for turning right of the NX from the Limerick direction at all.


  • #20
    Quadra
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭Quadra


    Guys,

    An unbiased observation: this thread is disintegrating already.

    Debate is good, differences in opinion are also good, but please don't cause the thread to be shut down.

    It's potentially one of the best sources of info on key road scheme progress.


  • #21
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    You don't understand traffic flows as far as I can see.

    It's just your not understanding the basics.


    No. These apply to you, not me. Across tens of threads on different schemes you've invented traffic counts, insisted junctions need to be built for small villages and the like.


    Go learn how capacity of a road is calculated. Pay particular attention to how the AADT figure for capacity of a road is significantly higher if it has opposing traffic flows rather than one single major tidal flow. Pay very close attention to how the capacity figure for a road is calculated in general as it appears you definitely don't understand this.

    Also go read the EIS for this scheme, and remember that the traffic counts in it are hard facts, not fantasies. The figure the NRA provide for traffic going through Newlands X on the N7 is the truth.


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  • #22
    Jayuu
    Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    Setanta_og wrote: »
    Have to say that the Newlands Cross Underpass/Overpass is one of the schemes recession or not that should be preceded with passing down that way last week at rush hour??? I was quite amazed at the back up of traffic as far south as St John’s Rd. What a pain for motorist who have enjoyed such a great drive from Waterford or Cork to the Capital to find this holdup before getting onto the superb M50. This project as the last part of the IU jigsaw must be a priority.

    Totally agree with this. This should be put top of the priority list.

    In fact it should have been done as part of the M50 upgrade. Its crazy (and yet typical) to think that they spent the best part of two years removing the Red Cow roundabout so that outbound traffic could just pile up a mile down the road at Newlands Cross.
    I've come off the M50 here a couple of times at around 4 in the afternoon and traffic is already almost backed up to the motorway. God only knows what it must be like an hour later.


  • #23
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Quadra wrote: »
    Guys,

    An unbiased observation: this thread is disintegrating already.

    Debate is good, differences in opinion are also good, but please don't cause the thread to be shut down.

    It's potentially one of the best sources of info on key road scheme progress.

    I won't shut this thread down, provided we stay on the side of debate, as it has done so far, and doesn't turn into mud-slinging like the last N11 thread did.

    Mysterious, your observations are duly noted, and I agree that at least provision should be made for 4x4. However, if the traffic counts are stating otherwise, then that is simply that. There are arguments for making the bridge 4x4, but ignoring official figures isn't a good place to start.


  • #24
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    mysterious wrote: »
    Kill has higher traffic volumes than Johnstown. Rathcoole and Saggart has higher volumes than Kill, Newlands cross has higher traffic than the rest. Red cow has even more. I pass this road regulary. And traffic does not drop at all at Newlands cross.
    Can't believe you're still at this carry on. N7 northbound at Newlands has one left turn lane and 2 right turn lanes with 3 straight ahead lanes. The 2 right turn lanes are very long and are heavily used by traffic getting into Tallaght, although presumably this figure is down since the ORR southern extension opened a couple of years ago. Lots of traffic also leaves at Citywest.

    You are just guessing traffic figures Mysterious. I used to drive Newcastle-Tallaght everyday for a couple of years. I was not alone in leaving the N7 at or before Newlands to reach Tallaght. What is your day to day experience of the road at this point? Are you a daily commuter on it like I was? You have a traffic counter in the next county and are working all your made up figures from that.


  • #25
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    murphaph wrote: »
    Can't believe you're still at this carry on. N7 northbound at Newlands has one left turn lane and 2 right turn lanes with 3 straight ahead lanes. The 2 right turn lanes are very long and are heavily used by traffic getting into Tallaght, although presumably this figure is down since the ORR southern extension opened a couple of years ago. Lots of traffic also leaves at Citywest.

    You are just guessing traffic figures Mysterious. I used to drive Newcastle-Tallaght everyday for a couple of years. I was not alone in leaving the N7 at or before Newlands to reach Tallaght. What is your day to day experience of the road at this point? Are you a daily commuter on it like I was? You have a traffic counter in the next county and are working all your made up figures from that.

    LOL.

    Dude, there are traffic counters all along the N7 and the fact is, the N7 traffic rises all the time as it gets closer to Dublin, since all the population centres are dormitory towns to Dublin city. I agree traffic turns right at Newlands it's called a cross type junction.

    The majority of N7 goes straight ahead. The right turn may take a few thousand a day fair enough. But traffic is still at 3x3 capacity.

    I agree with Bluntguy on his stance. It's logical to assume that it would be money well spent leaving room for 4 lanes. Since the interurbans are finishing up and newlands cross is grade separated, I can garentee (and most will agree) Traffic will condense along this old bottleneck section of N7. The fact that its this close to the Redcow and M50. It's common sense to allow 4 lanes each way from Citywest to the Redcow. It is the busiest section of N7 and has always been.


  • #26
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    MYOB wrote: »
    No. These apply to you, not me. Across tens of threads on different schemes you've invented traffic counts, insisted junctions need to be built for small villages and the like.


    Go learn how capacity of a road is calculated. Pay particular attention to how the AADT figure for capacity of a road is significantly higher if it has opposing traffic flows rather than one single major tidal flow. Pay very close attention to how the capacity figure for a road is calculated in general as it appears you definitely don't understand this.

    Also go read the EIS for this scheme, and remember that the traffic counts in it are hard facts, not fantasies. The figure the NRA provide for traffic going through Newlands X on the N7 is the truth.

    What about the thousands that do rat runs to avoid the junction?

    Same happened with the M50 and the N4 Newcastle junction. The N4 junction has lower traffic than Newlands (or did) has a wider bridge span than the new NX proposed junction. It has an embankemnt room one side and also has full H.shoulders. As soon as these roads were upgraded the traffic jumped considerably.


    Why because tailbacks occured here. The M50 at peak times, actually dwindled 20percent over a 2 year priod prior to the M50 upgrade while some sections remained static. Why because tailbacks occured at the road. This is whats happening at the Newlands cross. Tailbacks go all the way back to the M50 and Rathcoole both ways at peak times. A lot of traffic goes down the N81, N4 and ORR to avoid the N7. So I pay attention to alot more things than just an old EIS from the NRA. Lets be realistic the NRA are not very good at planning roads ahead.

    I pay close attention to things you wouldn't be even able to comprehend.


  • #27
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    I won't shut this thread down, provided we stay on the side of debate, as it has done so far, and doesn't turn into mud-slinging like the last N11 thread did.

    Mysterious, your observations are duly noted, and I agree that at least provision should be made for 4x4. However, if the traffic counts are stating otherwise, then that is simply that. There are arguments for making the bridge 4x4, but ignoring official figures isn't a good place to start.

    Thats what I'm trying to express, and while I've made my points I'm taking other aspects into consideration and not just soley relying on one source on this topic. I think people should understand this section of road is the busiest road after the M50. I'm aware traffic has dwindled at NX because it's a horrible bottleneck. But the fact is its well over 3x3 capacity. I think on future road openings and traffic growth along this road, its just common sense to either build 4x4 or give alot more room for expansion in the "future".

    Traffic will surpass the NRA traffic predictions on the EIS, because the NRA do not take into account that NX is severly congested. Congested roads don't attract traffic or have full capacity flows.


  • #28
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I think the real deal here is that the bridge should be 3x3 for now (as making it 4x4 going into 3x3 at the end of the bridge would be silly), but build it as 4x4 for futureproofing and just hatch off a lane for now.


  • #29
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Jayuu wrote: »
    Totally agree with this. This should be put top of the priority list.

    In fact it should have been done as part of the M50 upgrade. Its crazy (and yet typical) to think that they spent the best part of two years removing the Red Cow roundabout so that outbound traffic could just pile up a mile down the road at Newlands Cross.
    I've come off the M50 here a couple of times at around 4 in the afternoon and traffic is already almost backed up to the motorway. God only knows what it must be like an hour later.

    It should be 4 lanes each way the whole way down off the M50 and through the junction till Citywest.

    The distrubuter road from ORR to NX should then connect at the NX grade separate junction and then proceed on the southern quadrant of the N7 and join the luas P + R and free up the road from local traffic and dangerous weaving movements that exist onto the N7.This will mean a safer proper DC connecting the South and west properly to the M50 with a 100kmh speed limit.

    Last friday traffic backed all the way up the Westbound slips off the M50 (coming from the north) onto the Redcow all the way to Newlands cross. That was 3 o clock. It's worse than the old redcow if you think about it.


  • #30
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    mysterious wrote: »
    LOL.

    Dude, there are traffic counters all along the N7 and the fact is, the N7 traffic rises all the time as it gets closer to Dublin, since all the population centres are dormitory towns to Dublin city. I agree traffic turns right at Newlands it's called a cross type junction.

    The majority of N7 goes straight ahead. The right turn may take a few thousand a day fair enough. But traffic is still at 3x3 capacity.

    I agree with Bluntguy on his stance. It's logical to assume that it would be money well spent leaving room for 4 lanes. Since the interurbans are finishing up and newlands cross is grade separated, I can garentee (and most will agree) Traffic will condense along this old bottleneck section of N7. The fact that its this close to the Redcow and M50. It's common sense to allow 4 lanes each way from Citywest to the Redcow. It is the busiest section of N7 and has always been.
    You didn't answer my question.

    Do you commute on this road on a daily basis? How many times per year do you use NX and are you using it at peak times, in both directions?

    Fair questions because you are extrapolating data which YOU DO NOT HAVE! The N7 corridor is entirely different to the M4 as it passes predominantly housing on it's approaches to the M50. The N7 passes little housing and lots of employment centres on its approach to the M50 though, taking cars OFF the N7 inbound at peak times, before or at NX! I witnessed this process for 2 years, 5 days a week. So what is your practical experience of NX Dude?


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  • #31
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    murphaph wrote: »
    You didn't answer my question.

    Do you commute on this road on a daily basis? How many times per year do you use NX and are you using it at peak times, in both directions?

    Fair questions because you are extrapolating data which YOU DO NOT HAVE! The N7 corridor is entirely different to the M4 as it passes predominantly housing on it's approaches to the M50. The N7 passes little housing and lots of employment centres on its approach to the M50 though, taking cars OFF the N7 inbound at peak times, before or at NX! I witnessed this process for 2 years, 5 days a week. So what is your practical experience of NX Dude?

    I use the N7 2-4 times a week. I lived in Tipperary also, so I was kinda bred on the N7..

    But i've looked at all the facts, opinions, results of the NRA and what not and used my brain to see the best way forward for the NX junction.

    You are just worshipping the EIS and only that. I've already explained aspects of this road and traffic the EIS has not done so previously.

    Employment and Residential areas both attract traffic. The N7 is a nationaly primary route dude. It has a large residental catchement along the N7 and since the Naas road upgrade, Rathcoole, Saggart, Newcastle, Naas, Salins, Kill and Johnstown has all seen massive population growth. Saggart recently has built a few hundred houses adjacent to the N7.

    Your argument is negible. Simply because you want to try twist your opinions to your way of thinking that this road doesn't deserve future proofing. If there are large business parks on this road it wil too attract traffic from Dublin city out to Citywest. Since you've mentioned that, traffic will still increase on the N7 no matter what way you look at it.


  • #32
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    I think the real deal here is that the bridge should be 3x3 for now (as making it 4x4 going into 3x3 at the end of the bridge would be silly), but build it as 4x4 for futureproofing and just hatch off a lane for now.

    I think thats what most roads projects provide when been built. They don't build road for a short term capacity life span. Future proofing roads are done so that all the extra traffic can be sustained if it ever needed widening.

    The fact that it is so close to the M50 and NX is very busy, this road will have a very large catchment of population. I can garentee everyone as soon as NX is upgraded it will be already outdated as 3x3. Most of the M7 is due 3 lanes all the way to KIldare as it now stands. Newlands cross needs to be designed so it can handle the extra traffic.


  • #33
    ITDept
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 281 ✭✭ITDept


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Okay lads, we're gonna give this thread another go.

    Please try and make sure it doesn't go the way the last thread went!

    If you get any news/updates or other info on this scheme, please post here!

    Thought I'd have a look at this thread as I frequently travel on these roads and thought someone might have some information as to plans, dates etc. As it turns out, it's just a place for people to bicker about who knows more about traffic counting...


  • #34
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    mysterious wrote: »
    I pay close attention to things you wouldn't be even able to comprehend.

    Please cut this crap.

    Now.

    Any more personal comments like this will result in a serious ban.

    I'm getting fed up of you constantly making comments such as this one.
    Heated debate is fine, personal insults are not.


    I'm fairly leniant as I did note several previous posts got close to personal, but I generally allow those so as not to stifle debate. However,outright insults are not acceptable.
    Thats what I'm trying to express, and while I've made my points I'm taking other aspects into consideration and not just soley relying on one source on this topic. I think people should understand this section of road is the busiest road after the M50. I'm aware traffic has dwindled at NX because it's a horrible bottleneck. But the fact is its well over 3x3 capacity. I think on future road openings and traffic growth along this road, its just common sense to either build 4x4 or give alot more room for expansion in the "future".

    Unfortunately this came across as you just ignoring official figures and inventing your own ones. I agree with the point you bolded and what Chris_5339762 suggested.
    ITDept wrote: »
    Thought I'd have a look at this thread as I frequently travel on these roads and thought someone might have some information as to plans, dates etc. As it turns out, it's just a place for people to bicker about who knows more about traffic counting...

    In the absense of concrete new data, speculative discussion tends to be what occurs in threads such as these. I think the debate is fine until it becomes soapboxing and mud-slinging. Hopefully, we can avoid this.


  • #35
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Please cut this crap.

    Now.

    Any more personal comments like this will result in a serious ban.

    I'm getting fed up of you constantly making comments such as this one.
    Heated debate is fine, personal insults are not.


    I'm fairly leniant as I did note several previous posts got close to personal, but I generally allow those so as not to stifle debate. However,outright insults are not acceptable.



    Unfortunately this came across as you just ignoring official figures and inventing your own ones. I agree with the point you bolded and what Chris_5339762 suggested.

    MYOB made many comments to judge me that i don't know anything on this or I don't know anything about this road or that he knows for a fact he knows more about this road than I do.

    I've ignored the many comments so far.

    I've stressed my points and facts from official figures and use common knowledge and experience to assume the obvious average figures. I'm not making hard factual figures on this. I don't need too. I have looked at all the official figures and I also have taken other things into acount about the road some have not.

    That is what I've done on this topic. I'm making the case for the road been future proofed regardless of what the figures are now. Infact I think Newlands cross should be totally redesigned imo. That is just my opinion on it.

    I've also mentioned the fact the NX junction is severely congested and the oficial figures are not going to give an accurate proper traffic count for future traffic projections. Since most congested roads double in traffic numbers after it's upgraded. The NRA EIS ignored this facet that I've mentioned and brought up.

    I don't respect you exaggerating my comments as I'm insulting someone all the time or constantly. I don't appreciate that kind of judgment.


  • #36
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    mysterious wrote: »
    I don't respect you exaggerating my comments as I'm insulting someone all the time or constantly. I don't appreciate that kind of judgment.



    If you dont agree with a moderator decision PM the moderators of the forum instead of posting it on a thread. It's in the the forum charter.



    Now the only facts we can find, are traffic counters on the NRA website o the N7 near Johnstown

    These are for 2008
    Mar: 67399
    April: 75460

    If you want to quote figures near 90,000 give a link to this to back up your statement.


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  • #37
    rameire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭rameire


    The following is an observation of figures I have compiled over the last 4 years.
    use them as you wish.

    The route I am talking about is The N7 Dublin Bound. ( Heading towards Dublin ) The time is Peak time of the Morning

    Starting at the junction for Baldonnell.
    In the Morning time, more traffic leave at this junction than join.
    Meaning a net loss to the N7
    Citywest Junction
    more traffic leave this junction than join
    meaning a net loss to the N7
    Outer Ring Road Junction
    more traffic leave this juction than join
    Meaning a net loss to the N7
    the difference here is huge as not much traffic join the n7 at this junction
    green Isle Junction
    More traffic Joins at this junction than leaves.
    amazingly, abit of traffic that leave at the previous junction rejoin the N7 here.
    Meaning a net gain to the N7
    Newlands Cross Junction
    More traffic join here then leave
    Meaning a net gain to the N7

    Between the Junction I started at and the Newlands Cross as a whole there is a Net Loss to the N7.

    The traffic count before Baldonnell junction is greater than the Traffic Count Just before the Newlands Cross junction.

    🌞 3.8kwp, 🌞 Split 2.28S, 1.52E. 🌞 Clonee, Dub.🌞



  • #38
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Heres the official garb from the NRA tender documents, to add fuel to the fire.
    The Newlands Cross grade-separated junction will be constructed on-line and the project will require the construction of substantial temporary traffic diversions on the N7 Naas Road to enable the route to remain open to traffic during the course of the works. Traffic volumes on the N7 Naas Road (at Newlands Cross) currently average approximately 85,000 vehicles per day.


  • #39
    The Word Is Bor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Heres the official garb from the NRA tender documents, to add fuel to the fire.

    That would include the traffic currently turning off/on the N7 at NX.


  • #40
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Heres the official garb from the NRA tender documents, to add fuel to the fire.

    Its higher from NX to the M50. It was stated many times this section of road is the busiest road after the M50.

    The M1 Turnapin has overtaken it now. As traffic is at 112,000 A.A.D.T


  • #41
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,294 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Figures and stats aside, its hard to argue against making NX a 4x4 bridge, with 8 or even 10 lanes between it and the red cow.

    You can quote numbers till the cows come home, but look at the original M50 dual carriageway, and the catastrophe that turned out to be. No doubt they built it "according to statistical evidence" or what have you.

    Valuable Lesson #1: numbers don't tell the whole story.

    Numbers don't tell how the M7/8/9 motorway complex is nearing completion, and how long distance traffic will undoubtedly rise upon completion. Train times will be savaged and many will switch to motorways. Journeys will increase and people will generally be less averse to driving across Ireland for whatever purpose. I know I will.

    Numbers don't take into account the general population increase in Ireland and especially Dublin, and especially-especially, western Dublin. They also don't take into account the probability that the Dubln commuter belt will stretch farther southwest with the reduced journey times the motorways will bring.

    Yes a 3x3 bridge will probably suffice for now, but it will be more or less full when it opens. If not full, then very very busy all the time. And it will only get busier as the years go by. So how long will it last us, the taxpayer?

    I say that's a poor investment, when a 4x4 bridge will cost a little more but last far far longer and not need an costly retrofit upgrade and the ensuing costly traffic management. Again, look at the M50, a scenario that cost our country unfathomable amounts of money in the long run, even though it was originally cheaper. This is the exact same thing on a smaller scale.

    Yet we can't seem to learn from our mistakes and build in some extra headroom automatically. Its all very one-term politics, and no long term thinking.

    So for this reason, I think the 3x3 will happen, and the costly upgrade will need to happen too in 10-15 years time. And we the taxpayer will foot the bill for this lack of foresight as we have done in the past. Nothing has changed. Such is Ireland.


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  • #42
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    The Word Is Bor wrote: »
    That would include the traffic currently turning off/on the N7 at NX.

    There is very little left off traffic, since the N7 traffic has turn more than 120 degrees back up the Fonthill road towards Clondalkin, most left off traffic would use ORR or the R road just before NX. There is a small left off lane at NX (adjacent to the car sale room), and there is hardly any traffic using it because of the sharp degree turn back up the Fonthill road and it makes no sense for much traffic to use it. The Right off for Tallaght is used a lot, but still is only a few thousand a day (if even that).

    After the NX traffic is well over 85,000, since Clondalkin Catchment connects to the N7 and onto the M50.

    Either way 3x3 is almost at capacity. It needs to be future proofed.


  • #43
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    rameire wrote: »
    The following is an observation of figures I have compiled over the last 4 years.
    use them as you wish.

    The route I am talking about is The N7 Dublin Bound. ( Heading towards Dublin ) The time is Peak time of the Morning

    Starting at the junction for Baldonnell.
    In the Morning time, more traffic leave at this junction than join.
    Meaning a net loss to the N7
    Citywest Junction
    more traffic leave this junction than join
    meaning a net loss to the N7
    Outer Ring Road Junction
    more traffic leave this juction than join
    Meaning a net loss to the N7
    the difference here is huge as not much traffic join the n7 at this junction
    green Isle Junction
    More traffic Joins at this junction than leaves.
    amazingly, abit of traffic that leave at the previous junction rejoin the N7 here.
    Meaning a net gain to the N7
    Newlands Cross Junction
    More traffic join here then leave
    Meaning a net gain to the N7

    Between the Junction I started at and the Newlands Cross as a whole there is a Net Loss to the N7.

    The traffic count before Baldonnell junction is greater than the Traffic Count Just before the Newlands Cross junction.

    What figures?


  • #44
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    The Right off for Tallaght is used a lot, but still is only a few thousand a day (if even that).

    Ten thousand would be a conservative estimate. 15000 is probably accurate

    Traffic on the Belgard Road at this end is over 25000 PCUs*. Some of these cross the N7 from Fonthill, and some come from the opposite direction on the N7 but most are making the right hand turn from the N7 inbound.


    *SDCC figure. Deny it all you want, its a fact.


  • #45
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    MYOB wrote: »
    Ten thousand would be a conservative estimate. 15000 is probably accurate

    Traffic on the Belgard Road at this end is over 25000 PCUs*. Some of these cross the N7 from Fonthill, and some come from the opposite direction on the N7 but most are making the right hand turn from the N7 inbound.


    *SDCC figure. Deny it all you want, its a fact.

    lol it would be nowhere near that. There is no way in hell 10,000 would turn right and all just head towards Tallaght. You also have most traffic going straight through the N7 towards the M50 and heading south down there and onto the rest of Southern Dublin.

    The Belgard road ends in Tallaght town centre.

    The Belgard road traffic mainly goes straight up and down the Fonthill road. The turning movements turning left to N7 outbound and inbound is not that large at all. There even used to be bus stop put right in front of the Left turning lane to join the N7 SB.. I used this bus, and the bus would be park adjacent to the slip for five minutes and one or two cars may pass. That is it.

    I don't understand why you can't seem to understand that most people here want the NX junction future proofed to 4x4 and your just putting more of a personal belief system to swing to your argument.

    I passed the NX yesterday and traffic was backed up to the Geenisle hotel inbound and there was not one car turning right for Tallaght. You have 2 lanes there.

    It's a few thousands a day, not over 10,000. The Belgard road is mostly used for traffic going from Clondalkin, Nangor roads to Tallaght area.


  • #46
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Figures and stats aside, its hard to argue against making NX a 4x4 bridge, with 8 or even 10 lanes between it and the red cow.

    You can quote numbers till the cows come home, but look at the original M50 dual carriageway, and the catastrophe that turned out to be. No doubt they built it "according to statistical evidence" or what have you.

    Valuable Lesson #1: numbers don't tell the whole story.

    Numbers don't tell how the M7/8/9 motorway complex is nearing completion, and how long distance traffic will undoubtedly rise upon completion. Train times will be savaged and many will switch to motorways. Journeys will increase and people will generally be less averse to driving across Ireland for whatever purpose. I know I will.

    Numbers don't take into account the general population increase in Ireland and especially Dublin, and especially-especially, western Dublin. They also don't take into account the probability that the Dubln commuter belt will stretch farther southwest with the reduced journey times the motorways will bring.

    Yes a 3x3 bridge will probably suffice for now, but it will be more or less full when it opens. If not full, then very very busy all the time. And it will only get busier as the years go by. So how long will it last us, the taxpayer?

    I say that's a poor investment, when a 4x4 bridge will cost a little more but last far far longer and not need an costly retrofit upgrade and the ensuing costly traffic management. Again, look at the M50, a scenario that cost our country unfathomable amounts of money in the long run, even though it was originally cheaper. This is the exact same thing on a smaller scale.

    Yet we can't seem to learn from our mistakes and build in some extra headroom automatically. Its all very one-term politics, and no long term thinking.

    So for this reason, I think the 3x3 will happen, and the costly upgrade will need to happen too in 10-15 years time. And we the taxpayer will foot the bill for this lack of foresight as we have done in the past. Nothing has changed. Such is Ireland.


    1+.


  • #47
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    mysterious wrote: »
    What figures?
    You have no figures yourself other than a single traffic counter at Johnstown! Unbelievable!

    You still didn't answer my question: How often do you use Newlands Cross?

    (You said you use the N7 2-4 times a week, but the N7 runs all the way to Limerick so I presume you don't use Newlands at all or you would have said so)

    Rameire's observations tally with what I witnessed (My route was Newcastle to Greenhills, via NX 5 days a week, rush hour traffic...but on a motorbike so not so bad). I agree with his observations, you are not really in a position to make observations as you don't use the junction and are basing your entire argument on a traffic counter in the next county and then ignoring how different the N7 corridor is to the N4.

    You accept that the employment centres at Citywest etc. will drag traffic from the Dublin City direction (and actually use that to support your demand for a wider bridge) but you ignore the pull factor these employment centres create for traffic heading northbound on the N7 itself, very strange "logic" you're using here!


  • #48
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    mysterious wrote: »
    I passed the NX yesterday and traffic was backed up to the Geenisle hotel inbound and there was not one car turning right for Tallaght. You have 2 lanes there.
    Really? Cos even off peak Google seems to have "caught" a couple of these rogue right turners...

    Linky

    So, at that random moment (proves nothing, just like your single visit yesterday of course) Google captured 11 vehicles approaching the junction from the west. 1 turned left, 2 turned right and 8 went straight ahead, so in fact 15% of vehicles turned off as Google flew overhead. Like I said, as useless as your infrequent, likely off peak, observations and traffic counter in the wrong county.

    If nobody was turning right, then they would not have added the second right turn lane ;) There used to be only one!


  • #49
    The Word Is Bor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    crusheenman wrote: »
    I think eurolink are elimiated from selection?? can anybody confirm..? Ascon and Wills Consortium (gastro??) are selected, word on the ground anyhow..

    That is what I have heard as well. BAM Balfour Beaty and Gasta Roads are the two shortlisted candidates.


  • #50
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mysterious wrote: »
    There even used to be bus stop put right in front of the Left turning lane to join the N7 SB.. I used this bus, and the bus would be park adjacent to the slip for five minutes and one or two cars may pass. That is it.

    OK, now you're demented. That slip can back up to CRH or further for 90mins every evening. There is ALWAYS a stream of cars using it.
    mysterious wrote: »
    I don't understand why you can't seem to understand that most people here want the NX junction future proofed to 4x4 and your just putting more of a personal belief system to swing to your argument.

    Do they? On the old thread you didn't have a single person agreeing with you.
    mysterious wrote: »
    I passed the NX yesterday and traffic was backed up to the Geenisle hotel inbound and there was not one car turning right for Tallaght. You have 2 lanes there.

    You're lying. Simple as.


  • #51
    The Word Is Bor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    mysterious wrote: »
    There is very little left off traffic, since the N7 traffic has turn more than 120 degrees back up the Fonthill road towards Clondalkin, most left off traffic would use ORR or the R road just before NX. There is a small left off lane at NX (adjacent to the car sale room), and there is hardly any traffic using it because of the sharp degree turn back up the Fonthill road and it makes no sense for much traffic to use it. The Right off for Tallaght is used a lot, but still is only a few thousand a day (if even that).

    After the NX traffic is well over 85,000, since Clondalkin Catchment connects to the N7 and onto the M50.

    Either way 3x3 is almost at capacity. It needs to be future proofed.

    You are aware that for the purposes of calculating the AADT that will use the bridge any traffic turning onto/off the N7 are excluded.


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