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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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    #1892
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    spacetweek wrote: »
    We didn't start this thread to discuss whether the Cork-Limerick road should go over the top of a mountain only to end at a highly congestion location east of Cork. We started it to discuss the new build route along the N20 which is the best way for it to go.
    Can we end the discussion on Galtee Mountain tunnelling techniques please? It seems in recent announcements that an initial segment of the M20 at Mallow may now be on the cards.
    Hear hear. The feasibility report I posted above confirms why the M20 will be constructed along the shadow of the N20 and not the R513, so there's no point in discussing it as it's been discussed a million times before.

    Not sure if it's just me, but surely people get the fact that in Ireland, the population is so small that the number of X-Y journeys (e.g. Dublin-Limerick) are so small that those journeys alone wouldn't warrant a full motorway to provide for them. However, along the Dublin-Limerick road, the M7, traffic from Nenagh, Moneygall/Co. Laois, Portlaoise, Monastervin, Kildare, Newbridge and Naas is also in the mix meaning that all those towns have motorway access too. The same is true for the N20 in that a lot of traffic on the current N20 is from Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow, and also local areas that reach the N20 via the R518, R515, R522, N72/N73 and R619, so building the M20 from Limerick-M8 at Mitchelstown would satisfy Cork-Limerick traffic, but not the traffic from all these destinations in between, thereby reducing the effectiveness of the motorway build.


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    #1893
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    You're being very subjective in your post there. Would a motorway via Mitchelstown not open up the southeast as well, particularly Waterford and Rosslare? Also, the need for bypasses and road upgrades in those towns you mentioned might be negated if the Limerick-Cork traffic was taken away.

    Again, many of you see the motorway as an upgrade of an existing road probably because you're sick of being stuck in traffic along the N20, but it really should be seen as a key piece of national infrastructure that will serve us for a long, long time. The route via Mitchelstown may actually be the best option that provides greatest economic benefit to Munster and the country as a whole.


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    #1894
    Hogzy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    zulutango wrote: »
    You're being very subjective in your post there. Would a motorway via Mitchelstown not open up the southeast as well, particularly Waterford and Rosslare?
    .

    Open it up to what though? Do you think that the demand for such a project would increase if it were built. As in "build it and they will come"


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    #1895
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    zulutango wrote: »
    You're being very subjective in your post there. Would a motorway via Mitchelstown not open up the southeast as well, particularly Waterford and Rosslare? Also, the need for bypasses and road upgrades in those towns you mentioned might be negated if the Limerick-Cork traffic was taken away.

    Again, many of you see the motorway as an upgrade of an existing road probably because you're sick of being stuck in traffic along the N20, but it really should be seen as a key piece of national infrastructure that will serve us for a long, long time. The route via Mitchelstown may actually be the best option that provides greatest economic benefit to Munster and the country as a whole.

    The N20 between Croom and Mallow is a death trap. It HAS to be upgraded. As pointed out earlier in the thread, it's not all about point to point traffic. Most of the traffic on the road is local which won't disappear if a new motorway is built between Limerick and Mitchelstown.


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    #1896
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Open it up to what though?

    Connecting places leads to an increase in economic activity between them generally. The better the connection, the greater the increase. It makes sense to build a motorway that connects three major population and economic centres, and also a major port, rather than just building a motorway as a national route upgrade.
    Hogzy wrote: »
    Do you think that the demand for such a project would increase if it were built. As in "build it and they will come"

    We should certainly be looking at 30 - 50 year plans. So, with good infrastructure in place over the next few decades and the economic development that that would facilitate it's not inconceivable that the population of the country and that of Cork, Limerick and Waterford cities could be very much greater than they is now.


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    #1897
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Zulutango. Are you suggesting in effect, dualling Waterford to Dungarvan and then doing a new motorway from Dungarvan to Limerick through West Waterford, east Cork and Limerick. Junction with M8 at Mitchelstown? Would serve as the route linking all 3 cities.

    A route following the N24 wouldn't allow this.


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    #1898
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    The N20 between Croom and Mallow is a death trap. It HAS to be upgraded. As pointed out earlier in the thread, it's not all about point to point traffic. Most of the traffic on the road is local which won't disappear if a new motorway is built between Limerick and Mitchelstown.

    Yes, it has to be made much safer. That's not an argument for a motorway along the N20 though. Is your second statement true? (not that it's an argument for a motorway there either)


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    #1899
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    Zulutango. Are you suggesting in effect, dualling Waterford to Dungarvan and then doing a new motorway from Dungarvan to Limerick through West Waterford, east Cork and Limerick. Junction with M8 at Mitchelstown? Would serve as the route linking all 3 cities.

    A route following the N24 wouldn't allow this.

    No, I'm not. Here's a very crude map of what I think makes more sense ..


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    #1900
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    zulutango wrote: »
    No, I'm not. Here's a very crude map of what I think makes more sense ..

    Why follow the N24?

    Would make much more sense to online build on the existing N25 and then build new on a more southerly route. Cork Limerick route would be going miles out of your way.


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    #1901
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    zulutango wrote: »
    Yes, it has to be made much safer. That's not an argument for a motorway along the N20 though.

    Despite Motorways being an order of magnitude safer than s2 roads?


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    #1902
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    Why follow the N24?

    Would make much more sense to online build on the existing N25 and then build new on a more southerly route. Cork Limerick route would be going miles out of your way.

    There's currently a 12 minute difference between the two routes we're talking about before any motorways are built.


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    #1903
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Despite Motorways being an order of magnitude safer than s2 roads?

    It needs more than the safety argument to go all out and build a motorway. Otherwise there'd be a case to build them everywhere.


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    #1904
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    zulutango wrote: »
    You're being very subjective in your post there. Would a motorway via Mitchelstown not open up the southeast as well, particularly Waterford and Rosslare? Also, the need for bypasses and road upgrades in those towns you mentioned might be negated if the Limerick-Cork traffic was taken away.

    Again, many of you see the motorway as an upgrade of an existing road probably because you're sick of being stuck in traffic along the N20, but it really should be seen as a key piece of national infrastructure that will serve us for a long, long time. The route via Mitchelstown may actually be the best option that provides greatest economic benefit to Munster and the country as a whole.
    There is already a motorway connecting Mitchelstown, it's called the M8. What you're eseentially saying is that we should upgrade the N24 instead of the N20, perhaps you live along the N24 corridor, and would like to see that upgraded instead.

    The reality is if the M20 is built along the R513, major upgrades will still have to take place along the N20 corridor. All the current traffic using the N20 that isn't Cork-Limerick traffic will still be on this road.

    The M20 will be built along the current N20, any future debate is pointless.


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    #1905
    zulutango
    Registered Users Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭zulutango


    marno21 wrote: »
    There is already a motorway connecting Mitchelstown, it's called the M8. What you're eseentially saying is that we should upgrade the N24 instead of the N20, perhaps you live along the N24 corridor, and would like to see that upgraded instead.

    The reality is if the M20 is built along the R513, major upgrades will still have to take place along the N20 corridor. All the current traffic using the N20 that isn't Cork-Limerick traffic will still be on this road.

    The M20 will be built along the current N20, any future debate is pointless.

    No, actually a motorway along the M20 would benefit me personally more, but I think a motorway via Mitchelstown might be the better option for the country all things considered given that it would connect the south-east and Midwest, as well as Cork and Limerick.


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    #1906
    Conba
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭Conba


    zulutango wrote: »
    We should certainly be looking at 30 - 50 year plans.

    The problem with that is linear thinking and projecting a future based on the state of things today. See Tony Seba's brilliant presentation on electric transportation and solar to understand why "Up to 80 per cent of parking spaces and highways will be redundant"... by 2030 !

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBkND76J91k

    Not to mention that with the enormous strides being made in drone / uav tech it's highly likely that people carrying drones (yes, flying cars) will add more redundancy to highways well before the 50 year mark.


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    #1907
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    Will be interesting to see if the M20 gets mentioned in tomorrow's government 5 year infrastructural plans..


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    #1908
    Mc Love
    Registered Users Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    God I hope it does!


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    #1909
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,106 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    irishfeen wrote: »
    Will be interesting to see if the M20 gets mentioned in tomorrow's government 5 year infrastructural plans..

    It's not going from or to Dublin, so it probably wont be mentioned


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    #1910
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    It's not going from or to Dublin, so it probably wont be mentioned
    Government won't be returned to government just by the electorate in Dublin - I'm quietly confident a proportion of the road including the Mallow by-pass will be announced... I'll be very disappointed if not.


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    #1911
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    irishfeen wrote: »
    Government won't be returned to government just by the electorate in Dublin - I'm quietly confident a proportion of the road including the Mallow by-pass will be announced... I'll be very disappointed if not.

    Will there be a tunnel under the Nagles and the Blackwater?


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    #1912
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    Will there be a tunnel under the Nagles and the Blackwater?
    Haha! :)


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    #1913
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,956 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Carnacalla wrote: »
    It's not going from or to Dublin, so it probably wont be mentioned
    Neither are the M17/M18 and N25 New Ross bypass but they went ahead...


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    #1914
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    If I was a betting man, there won't be any great movement in this scheme. Funding will be released for Dunkettle. After that, maybe Macroom bypass and that will be that.


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    #1915
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    It's being announced tomorrow, so we won't have long to wait! Fingers crossed the M20 (well some of it anyway) makes the grade!

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0928/730982-government-capital-projects/


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    #1916
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    captainspeed wrote: »
    It's being announced tomorrow, so we won't have long to wait! Fingers crossed the M20 (well some of it anyway) makes the grade!

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0928/730982-government-capital-projects/

    So based on speculated spending from the different aspects of the programme, there is about €18 billion max for roads infrastructure.

    What would €18 billion get you? I think there will be a "the government will provide X towards the A5 if the parties in the North reach agreement" part anyway.

    M7 widening will surely be funded? And hopefully at least a start on the M20


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    #1917
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Looks like the M20 misses out.
    http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ie.jpg

    Bizarre tbh. Dunkettle and the Ringaskiddy upgrades I would agree with but putting the Macroom bypass ahead of the M20? Costs no doubt a factor.

    Every year this road is not done and especially when you have a Motorway/DC all the way north of Tuam to Croom which then reverts to a 19th century road to Cork, well it will stick out like a sore thumb.

    We will see what the official announcement may bring. Maybe they will split it up into two project and start the Croom to Mallow part first.


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    #1918
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Mallow - Cork wouldn't be bad.

    Would cut Mallow-Cork to 15 mins and a lot of the land is already purchased (online)


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    #1919
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    As expected, nothing included on the M20. Shocking stuff.


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    #1920
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    Seán Sherlock has tweeted that there will be a relief road for Mallow.

    https://twitter.com/seansherlocktd/status/648825492922060800

    Unfortunately I'd say that means there won't be any good news on the M20 :(.


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    #1921
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Didn't the NRA state that this was on the top of the list regard new builds? Very surprised it's not included even in parts.


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