Unbelievers curiosity about Jesus

BrianCalgary wrote: »

The missing part is that Jesus was man at this time. We surmise that the strategy of God was that Jesus during this time would not have th etime of His second coming revealed to Him. Although He was aware of what the signs were to indicate the second coming.

PDN wrote: »

It's what theologians refer to as the Economic Trinity. This means that each Person within the Godhead fulfills a particular role in order to work out God's salvation plan. Thus the Son willingly subordinated Himself to the Father and took the form of a servant, even though He was coequal with the Father in power and glory. This is explained in Philippians 2 and exemplified by Christ washing the disciples' feet in John 13.

PDN wrote: »

Yes, I believe that the Son willingly subordinated Himself to the Father during the Incarnation.


The idea behind the Economic Trinity is that each Person within the Godhead fulfills certain roles. For example, it was the Son (not the Father or the Spirit) who died on the Cross. It was the Spirit (not the Son or the Father) who was poured out on the Day of Pentecost. It is the Father (not the Son or the Father) who hears and answers prayer. This is why Christians usually pray to the Father, through the Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus.


The Second Person of the Trinity certainly existed from all eternity. He is called the Word (Logos) in the opening verses of John's Gospel. Whether you think he should be called "the Son" prior to the Incarnation depends on whether you believe in the Eternal Sonship of Jesus or not:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Eternal_Sonship_of_Christ.asp

PDN wrote: »

Come on, Jimi, that is as much of an urban legend as the recurring trolls' nonsense about the Council of Nicaea determining the Canon of Scripture. It was around the time of Constantine that Church Councils dotted all the 'i's and crossed all the 't's to give a very precise definition of the Trinity - primarily because of the various heresies that kept finding loopholes in the church's traditionally vaguer understanding of the Trinity. However, a quick reading of early Church history demonstrates that Christians believed in the Trinity from the very beginning (despite the JWs attempts to rewrite history).

Here's a few quotes - you can see both the understanding and the language become more explicit as Christians struggled to express and reconcile the various Scriptural teachings regarding the Godhead, and to avoid contradicting Scripture or falling into heresy.

70 AD: The Didache
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water…. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." (Didache 7:1).

The late 1st century: Ignatius of Antioch
"Study, therefore, to be established in the doctrines of the Lord and the apostles, that so all things, whatsoever ye do, may prosper both in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit; in the beginning and in the end; with your most admirable bishop, and the well-compacted spiritual crown of your presbytery, and the deacons who are according to God. Be ye subject to the bishop, and to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the flesh, and the apostles to Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit; that so there may be a union both fleshly and spiritual." (Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 13).

151 AD: Justin Martyr
"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein." (First Apology 13:5–6).

181 AD: Theophilus of Antioch
"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place.... The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom." (To Autolycus 2:15). Theophilus is using the word 'Trinity' 160 years before Constantine!

189 AD: Irenaeus
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty ...and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit." (Against Heresies 1:10:1)

216 AD: Tertullian
"We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made…. We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit…. This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics." (Against Praxeas 2)

"And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." (ibid).

"Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." (ibid., 9)

"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent personae, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, 'I and my Father are one' [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number." (ibid., 25).

225 AD: Origen
"For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist." (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1)

"No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon…the expression which we employ, however that there was never a time when he did not exist is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words 'when' and 'never' are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages." (ibid.).

"For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages." (ibid.).

228 AD: Hippolytus of Rome
"The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the being of God. Now the world was made from nothing, wherefore it is not God." (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29)

235 AD: Novatian
"For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth him to be the Son of God only, but also the son of man; nor does it only say, the son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of him as the Son of God. So that being of both, he is both, lest if he should be one only, he could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that he must be believed to be God who is of God…. Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God." (Treatise on the Trinity 11)

262 AD: Dionysius
"Next, then, I may properly turn to those who divide and cut apart and destroy the most sacred proclamation of the Church of God, making of it [the Trinity], as it were, three powers, distinct substances, and three godheads.... [Some heretics] proclaim that there are in some way three gods, when they divide the sacred unity into three substances foreign to each other and completely separate." (Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria 1)

"Therefore, the divine Trinity must be gathered up and brought together in one, a summit, as it were, I mean the omnipotent God of the universe.... It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one but the worst, to say that the Son is in any way a handiwork [creature].... But if the Son came into being [was created], there was a time when these attributes did not exist; and, consequently, there was a time when God was without them, which is utterly absurd." (ibid., 1–2).

"Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity.... Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. 'For,' he says, 'The Father and I are one,' and 'I am in the Father, and the Father in me'." (ibid., 3).

265 AD: Gregory the Wonderworker
"There is one God.... There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything super-induced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever." (Declaration of Faith).

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

PDN wrote: »

All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" - which means, "God with us." (Matthew 1:22-23)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. (John 1:1)

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form. (Colossians 2:9)

But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8)

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours. (2 Peter 1:1)

But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. (1 Corinthians 3:16-18)

Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." (Acts 5:3-4)