Rangers FC lodge papers to go into administration

bobbysands81 · 14-02-2012 3:05pm

Dempsey wrote: »

Unless HMRC have a 2nd ace up their sleeve, Whyte will beat them to the appointment of Administrators imo

Looks like HMRC have agreed to Whyte appointing administrators:

From inside the court -

Agreement reached. [Rangers] to appoint before half three with consent of Hmrc. If not done by then Hmrc will put in their guy. Duff and phelps for the [Rangers]

bobbysands81 · 14-02-2012 3:18pm

Cara Sulieman @carasulieman

HMRC initially objected to Duff & Phelps - said there were concerns of "public perception" if they were appointed.

fionnsda · 14-02-2012 3:18pm

Jelle1880 · 14-02-2012 3:21pm

fionnsda wrote: »

Not that soon, I know this is a small victory for Rangers but let's not get carried away :cool:

fionnsda · 14-02-2012 3:33pm

was thinking of ice cream and jelly sort of party!:D

bobbysands81 · 14-02-2012 3:33pm

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Not that soon, I know this is a small victory for Rangers but let's not get carried away :cool:

So you think that getting to appoint your own ADMINISTRATORS is a small victory for Rangers?!

Brilliant!

By the way... if I was you guys I'd actually want HMRC's administrators because all Whyte is going to be interested in is Whyte, not the future of Rangers FC.

Jelle1880 · 14-02-2012 3:35pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So you think that getting to appoint your own ADMINISTRATORS is a small victory for Rangers?!

Brilliant!

By the way... if I was you guys I'd actually want HMRC's administrators because all Whyte is going to be interested in is Whyte, not the future of Rangers FC.

You don't do humor, do you ?

Administration was always going to happen, the fact we can appoint our own is better than having to appoint HMRC's.

KeithAFC · 14-02-2012 3:36pm

Best out come if it happens. Who cares about a points deduction.

_blank_ · 14-02-2012 3:37pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Best out come if it happens. Who cares about a points deduction.

Exactly, Rangers will still come second in the league.

The points deduction means nothing, absolutely nothing.

Dempsey · 14-02-2012 3:39pm

I think Rangers FC would have been better off with Lord Menzies appointing the administrator. Make no mistake about it, Duff & Phelps are there to serve Whyte's interests first and foremost, not Rangers FC.

joseph brand · 14-02-2012 3:40pm

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/02/14/graeme-souness-i-fear-rangers-fc-will-cease-to-exist-in-their-current-form-86908-23748599/

They owe £75 million? Yikes.

So what's gonna happen? They will have to sell their best players, get deducted 10 points and change their name?

Dempsey · 14-02-2012 3:42pm

Des wrote: »

Exactly, Rangers will still come second in the league.

The points deduction means nothing, absolutely nothing.

It means there are deducted 10 points :rolleyes:

It becomes easier for Motherwell & Hearts to catch them if some players are offloaded.

KeithAFC · 14-02-2012 3:47pm

Des wrote: »

Exactly, Rangers will still come second in the league.

The points deduction means nothing, absolutely nothing.

All it does is end the title race this early ha. Sky will not be happy.

KeithAFC · 14-02-2012 3:48pm

Dempsey wrote: »

It means there are deducted 10 points :rolleyes:

It becomes easier for Motherwell & Hearts to catch them if some players are offloaded.

So what. If the club survives, Rangers will just catch up with them quickly anyway.

fionnsda · 14-02-2012 3:48pm

Douglas Fraser @BBCDouglsFraser Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
I hear from a lawyer working in the Court of Session building that Duff and Phelps have now been appointed administrators of #Rangers FC.

Thrill · 14-02-2012 3:56pm

Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak

Rangers Football Club confirms it has appointed administrators Duff & Phelps

Beefy78 · 14-02-2012 3:57pm

Dempsey wrote: »

It means there are deducted 10 points :rolleyes:

It becomes easier for Motherwell & Hearts to catch them if some players are offloaded.

They can't offload players outside of the transfer window and the players can't be made redundant as their contracts are protected.

StephenHendry · 14-02-2012 4:00pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

All it does is end the title race this early ha. Sky will not be happy.

exactly the title race is effectively. with a ten point deduction, it will be give motherwell and hearts a chance for 2nd. hearts are having their own financial difficulties as well.

Dempsey · 14-02-2012 4:00pm

Beefy78 wrote: »

They can't offload players outside of the transfer window and the players can't be made redundant as their contracts are protected.

When in administration, you can get special permission to sell players outside the transfer window

Thrill · 14-02-2012 4:02pm

That 10 points deduction, Is that every year or just the initial year?

Beefy78 · 14-02-2012 4:03pm

Thrill wrote: »

That 10 points deduction, Is that every year or just the initial year?

It's this year.

Beefy78 · 14-02-2012 4:03pm

RoryMac wrote: »

Everything done so far seems to be pointing towards a pre-pack administration where Rangers FC will be liquidated and sold to New Rangers FC.

They may be sold to a new holding company but the current legal entity (The Rangers Football Club PLC) won't be liquidated, unless I'm missing something obvious.

Fiorentina got liquidated in the last decade and other clubs have gone and been ressurrected elsewhere but I don't see under the current British insolvency laws as I understand them why it would serve anyone to liquidate that company rather than put it into administration and sell it on.

KeithAFC · 14-02-2012 4:05pm

Well done on the title win Celtic.

meriwether · 14-02-2012 4:06pm

Beefy78 wrote: »

There's nothing to suggest that Rangers won't come out of this. I think England are up to 60 Clubs now who have gone into Administration since 1997 and not many failed. Certainly none with the sort of turnover that Rangers have. You simply can't compare this situation with those of Gretna or Chester City.

Administration is about protecting the interests of the creditors. Liquidation is not in the interest of the creditors as they're not going to get their money back. The best interest of the creditors is best served by Rangers agreeing a CVA to pay back 20% or whatever of what they owe and then allowing them to exit Administration with outgoings that the club can afford.

HMRC are aggressive on this now because of what happened with Leeds. They won't allow clubs to use their tax liabilities to fund working capital and they won't allow Rangers to take the piss with what they pay back as Leeds did. As a point of principle they are deeply offended by the Football Creditors Rule however at the end of the day they're there to protect the interest of the Treasury and the interest of the Treasury are not best served by forcing Rangers out of business.

The bit in bold is incorrect. The liquidator acts on behalf of the creditors by liquidating trhe company for the maximum proceeds he/she can, to be distributed in order of class to the creditors, secured creditors getting the first dibs, and the unsecured creds getting whatever is left.

I'm no expert on administration, but it seems to be like our examinership.

If the creditors do worse from an Examinership than they would from a disposal of the Rangers assets, they can refuse the administrators offer, and press for wind up if the entity. Consequently, the new buyer will have to offer a little bit more than could be secured in a winding up.

Beefy78 · 14-02-2012 4:06pm

Dempsey wrote: »

When in administration, you can get special permission to sell players outside the transfer window

Well Portsmouth did it with one player (that I can remember). I don't think any other Club has done it. And I think the player that they sold wasn't allowed to be registered with the buying club so there'd be a limited market.

Jelle1880 · 14-02-2012 4:06pm

Beefy78 wrote: »

It's this year.

So far, but if nothing happens during the summer it'll be ten points for the next season too.

edit: Didn't the English FA stop Pompey having to sell all their players ?

Dempsey · 14-02-2012 4:07pm

Beefy78 wrote: »

They may be sold to a new holding company but the current legal entity (The Rangers Football Club PLC) won't be liquidated, unless I'm missing something obvious.

Fiorentina got liquidated in the last decade and other clubs have gone and been ressurrected elsewhere but I don't see under the current British insolvency laws as I understand them why it would serve anyone to liquidate that company rather than put it into administration and sell it on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17015966

Mr Whyte is understood to be the club's main secured creditor via a floating charge over its assets.

This would allow him to pursue other avenues such as receivership or pre-pack administration to satisfy the debts which the club owes him if a CVA cannot be secured.

These would involve transferring Rangers assets out to another company or companies to satisfy outstanding debts to the floating charge holder and leaving the club behind with the debt.

In such scenarios, it would be likely that Rangers FC - formed in 1873 - would be formally wound up.

Dempsey · 14-02-2012 4:07pm

Beefy78 wrote: »

Well Portsmouth did it with one player (that I can remember). I don't think any other Club has done it. And I think the player that they sold wasn't allowed to be registered with the buying club so there'd be a limited market.

The point still stands that it can be done!

Beefy78 · 14-02-2012 4:11pm

meriwether wrote: »

The bit in bold is incorrect. The liquidator acts on behalf of the creditors by liquidating trhe company for the maximum proceeds he/she can, to be distributed in order of class to the creditors, secured creditors getting the first dibs, and the unsecured creds getting whatever is left.

I'm no expert on administration, but it seems to be like our examinership.

If the creditors do worse from an Examinership than they would from a disposal of the Rangers assets, they can refuse the administrators offer, and press for wind up if the entity. Consequently, the new buyer will have to offer a little bit more than could be secured in a winding up.

Technically true but a football club's assets are difficult for a liquidator to realise which is why it's almost unheard of for a football administration to lead to liquidation. In almost all circumstances it's better for HMRC and other creditors to agree to take 15 or 20% in a CVA.

If The Rangers Football Club PLC owns Ibrox then that changes things.

Administration is similar to Examinership in some senses. Examinisership places a business under the Court's protection for a set period of time. Administration doesn't offer that protection and is a longer-term position than Examinership which I think only lasts 100 days.

Kristopherus · 14-02-2012 4:11pm

Administration confirmed.

Red Crow · 14-02-2012 4:13pm

Beefy78 wrote: »

RoryMac wrote: »

Everything done so far seems to be pointing towards a pre-pack administration where Rangers FC will be liquidated and sold to New Rangers FC.

They may be sold to a new holding company but the current legal entity (The Rangers Football Club PLC) won't be liquidated, unless I'm missing something obvious.

Fiorentina got liquidated in the last decade and other clubs have gone and been ressurrected elsewhere but I don't see under the current British insolvency laws as I understand them why it would serve anyone to liquidate that company rather than put it into administration and sell it on.

You're making no sense. Ideally you could wave a wand and it would go away. I would expect the club to be wound up. If I was a Rangers fan I would prefer to take the short term hit.

Beefy78 · 14-02-2012 4:20pm

Dempsey wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17015966

Let's see. I don't agree with that interpretation from the BBC. Unless the SFA's rules are wildly different to those of the FA in England I don't see how they can give Rangers' membership of the SFA and place in the SPL to a new company. It couldn't happen in England but then England has a much deeper pyramid for a phoenix football club to be put at the bottom of.

If football clubs could just wind up, resurrect, take their old place in the league and carry on as normal then they'd do it all the time.

bobbysands81 · 14-02-2012 4:22pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well done on the title win Celtic.

I may as well take this time to remind you of our little wager...

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Should you be willing to place a charity wager on the winner of this year's SPL I shall accept.

KeithAFC wrote: »

What charity?

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Charity to be chosen by the winner of the bet.

You win you nominate a charity for me to pay, I win I nominate a charity for you to pay.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Welcome back Keith!!! I missed you buddy!

You gonna answer me about the bet now and try to win some money for charity or are you going to admit Celtic are going to win the league?

KeithAFC wrote: »

If you wish. Go for it. I will do it.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Good lad. €50?

KeithAFC wrote: »

Sure.

Coillte_Bhoy · 14-02-2012 4:25pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well done on the title win Celtic.

Don't give up yet keith. After all a 14 point lead can easily be overturned cant it?

meriwether · 14-02-2012 4:28pm

Beefy78 wrote: »

Technically true but a football club's assets are difficult for a liquidator to realise which is why it's almost unheard of for a football administration to lead to liquidation. In almost all circumstances it's better for HMRC and other creditors to agree to take 15 or 20% in a CVA.

If The Rangers Football Club PLC owns Ibrox then that changes things.

Administration is similar to Examinership in some senses. Examinisership places a business under the Court's protection for a set period of time. Administration doesn't offer that protection and is a longer-term position than Examinership which I think only lasts 100 days.

Nothing was ever done before it was done.

In relation to your point that RFCPLC owns Ibrox - what are you getting at here?

Also, a 20% cut on £75m would still be ruinous for Rangers. Austerity ahead.

Thrill · 14-02-2012 4:28pm

James Cook @BBCJamesCook Strathclyde Police seeking urgent meeting with #Rangers' administrators to ensure policing bills will be paid. If not, can't police matches.

Mark White @skymarkwhite

Police want urgent talks re policing costs for #Rangers v Kilmarnock, if no agreement police could force match cancelation on safety grounds

Beefy78 · 14-02-2012 4:36pm

meriwether wrote: »

In relation to your point that RFCPLC owns Ibrox - what are you getting at here?

I mean if RFCPLC own a large piece of real estate worth a good few million pounds then that gives a Liquidator a tangible asset to sell in the event that the company gets wound up. It's why a lot of football clubs as well as hotels and golf courses and other businesses where they have a single large valuable asset have that asset owned by another company and rent it - because if they do get into financial trouble they have an asset which can be sold off by whoever is in charge.

From an earlier post it sounds like one of White's companies owns Ibrox and that's what makes him a major creditor (I presume because of unpaid rent).

If this was any other type of business then I doubt there's any doubt that the company would be wound-up and a new company would just sprout up. That's certainly what would happen if Rangers were a hotel. But football generally has provisions in place to stop that from happening.

jack presley · 14-02-2012 4:46pm

Is it right that Ibrox is a listed building so can't be sold off for development?

bobbysands81 · 14-02-2012 4:50pm

jack presley wrote: »

Is it right that Ibrox is a listed building so can't be sold off for development?

Yup, taht's the deal alright.

The facade is listed and I'm sure some of the internal parts of the stadium are also listed.

meriwether · 14-02-2012 4:59pm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Yup, taht's the deal alright.

The facade is listed and I'm sure some of the internal parts of the stadium are also listed.

The trophy cabinet is going to be listed soon - listed for sale. One careful owner, no need for in the future.

Thrill · 14-02-2012 5:14pm

Andrew Neil @afneil Sources tell me HMRC played hard ball with #rangers because sees it as test case. Has some big English clubs in same sights.

:eek:

RoryMac · 14-02-2012 5:15pm

Thrill wrote: »

James Cook @BBCJamesCook Strathclyde Police seeking urgent meeting with #Rangers' administrators to ensure policing bills will be paid. If not, can't police matches.

If Rangers can't fulfil a fixture it would lead to further penalties from the SFA, could the game be played behind closed doors?

KeithAFC · 14-02-2012 5:16pm

Thrill wrote: »

:eek:

Man Utd.

Jelle1880 · 14-02-2012 5:19pm

jack presley wrote: »

Is it right that Ibrox is a listed building so can't be sold off for development?

Only the main stand.

And the thing about English clubs was known, HMRC are desperate to go after the big ones (Presumable ManU as top target).

_blank_ · 14-02-2012 5:21pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Man Utd.

source?

KeithAFC · 14-02-2012 5:26pm

Des wrote: »

source?

Aren't Man Utd in a bad position in terms of debt?

jack presley · 14-02-2012 5:29pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Des wrote: »

source?

Aren't Man Utd in a bad position in terms of debt?

As long as you can meet your debt repayments, the size of your debt doesn't matter (well in the business world anyway. UEFA might have licence issues though).

RoryMac · 14-02-2012 5:29pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Aren't Man Utd in a bad position in terms of debt?

Doesn't mean they used EBT's

14-02-2012 5:29pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Aren't Man Utd in a bad position in terms of debt?

Not to revenue, which would be the only interest HMRC would have

_blank_ · 14-02-2012 5:32pm

so Keith is making stuff up then?

Rangers FC lodge papers to go into administration

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