Seamus Quirke roadworks merge

galwaycyclist · 17-09-2011 10:37pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That could be considered 'temporarily deferred' as it is arguably not integral...starting and finishing off carriageway as it does

As it happens there is correspondence on file with An Bord Pleanala where the board takes a different view. (i.e. The city council asks "can we drop the bridge?" and An Bord Pleanala says "no")

Unfortunately by a funny quirk An Bord Pleanala has no power to enforce its own decisions.

Sponge Bob · 18-09-2011 12:19pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

As it happens there is correspondence on file with An Bord Pleanala where the board takes a different view. (i.e. The city council asks "can we drop the bridge?" and An Bord Pleanala says "no")

An utterly ridiculous situation that. It leaves incompetent city officials with far too much power.

Do the councillors not have to ensure that An Bord Pleanálas wishes are enforced ( eg the Higgins Tesco scheme) ...whatever their own officials may think ?

galwaycyclist · 18-09-2011 9:16pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

An utterly ridiculous situation that. It leaves incompetent city officials with far too much power.

Do the councillors not have to ensure that An Bord Pleanálas wishes are enforced ( eg the Higgins Tesco scheme) ...whatever their own officials may think ?

Given that this scheme appears to be, in aspects, illegal and that this may yet become a matter for the courts. It is my view that I should confine my comments to pointing out salient facts. (As opposed to speculating as to courses of action or who might have locus standi in this matter)

snubbleste · 03-10-2011 8:27am

The hospital entrance is closed today because of a burnt-out car left there over the weekend. Couple this with the Newcastle Road works and a smattering of rain meaning a ridiculous amount of traffic jams due today.
Poor Seamus Quirke, what did he ever do to have his name sullied like this?

Robbo · 03-10-2011 9:22am

snubbleste wrote: »

The hospital entrance is closed today because of a burnt-out car left there over the weekend. Couple this with the Newcastle Road works and a smattering of rain meaning a ridiculous amount of traffic jams due today.
Poor Seamus Quirke, what did he ever do to have his name sullied like this?

Endless building, public expense? The campaign to rename if Bishop Browne Road starts here.

Iwannahurl · 03-10-2011 9:56am

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Given that this scheme appears to be, in aspects, illegal and that this may yet become a matter for the courts. It is my view that I should confine my comments to pointing out salient facts. (As opposed to speculating as to courses of action or who might have locus standi in this matter)

I'm not being facetious here, but have you considered doing an LLB or some such?

It could be quite useful in the context of engaging with officials on matters relating to roads and traffic.

Iwannahurl · 03-10-2011 10:03am

snubbleste wrote: »

The hospital entrance is closed today because of a burnt-out car left there over the weekend. Couple this with the Newcastle Road works and a smattering of rain meaning a ridiculous amount of traffic jams due today.
Poor Seamus Quirke, what did he ever do to have his name sullied like this?

Seamus Quirke and Sean Mulvoy were martyred on the road to a free Irish Republic.

There are those who would claim that current traffic management and transportation policies are just part of a big state conspiracy to finish what the Black & Tans started.

galwaycyclist · 03-10-2011 5:39pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm not being facetious here, but have you considered doing an LLB or some such?

It could be quite useful in the context of engaging with officials on matters relating to roads and traffic.

In dealing with Irish local authority officials, a knowledge of the law is redundant unless you have the resources to back it up. You are dealing with people who cannot be fired either for incompetence or for demonstrating ignorance of their own functions. Futhermore they can write a blank cheque for any legal action without any fear of any personal repurcussions for themselves.

They know that the average citizen will have to put their family home on the line to prove even basic, self-evident, points of law. So as a result, they will look you in the eye and tell you white is black and black is white and defy you to find a judge who agrees with you.

Iwannahurl · 03-10-2011 11:26pm

True.

Whether the Council is right or wrong ultimately, it's the State (or Joe Public) who picks up most or all of the tab.

http://www.galwayindependent.com/local-news/local-news/eyre-square-costs-reach-%26euro;12m/

snubbleste · 06-10-2011 9:56am

Bus shelters have been erected on the westside pitches side, complete with advertising.
Works are making steady progress.

zarquon · 06-10-2011 10:52am

They still seem to be ages behind. Remember that the works have not even began on the other side of the road yet. Always seems to be more of the construction lads standing around chatting than actually working. it's quite clear there is no urgency for them in the project and they are simply stretching the work out.

Iwannahurl · 06-10-2011 11:38am

snubbleste wrote: »

Bus shelters have been erected on the westside pitches side, complete with advertising.
Works are making steady progress.

Advertising new buses and bus routes perhaps?

Groups such as Galway Chamber are complaining of the roadworks, and the nature of the SQR modifications, given that bus services are not expanding accordingly.

I'm in favour of better PT facilities, and I'm not at all sorry that the SQR is not to be made a dual carriageway rich in roundabouts, but I am equally frustrated with the Irish uncoordinated system of transportation planning, whereby bus lanes can exist without buses. I can see why motorists would be p:ssed off with driving in a single lane on refurbished facilities with an empty bus lane beside them.

Any indication of whether or when a cross-town bus service will materialise on this route?

snubbleste · 06-10-2011 11:44am

Dunno when a new bus route will take place, but have it on good authority that BusEireann are currently evaluating their 1980s-era routes in galway and changes will be made.

galwaycyclist · 06-10-2011 11:50am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Groups such as Galway Chamber are complaining of the roadworks, and the , whereby bus lanes can exist without buses. I can see why motorists would be p:ssed off with driving in a single lane on refurbished facilities with an empty bus lane beside them.

The "bus" lane will contain cyclists - hopefully more cyclists than bus passengers or taxi passengers.

Iwannahurl · 06-10-2011 11:54am

snubbleste wrote: »

Dunno when a new bus route will take place, but have it on good authority that BusEireann are currently evaluating their 1980s-era routes in galway and changes will be made.

Obviously early 1980s, before the QB opened in ?1984.

Will we get a QBC over the QB? If motorised vehicles are to be allowed continue bombing over the QB at up to twice the speed limit, I'd prefer that at least some of them were buses.

Iwannahurl · 06-10-2011 11:57am

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The "bus" lane will contain cyclists - hopefully more cyclists than bus passengers or taxi passengers.

We'll be among them, all going well.

It is essential that a successful bus service materialises, a la #9 to Parkmore.

A wager: the phenomenon of numerous footpath cyclists along the SQR will not disappear, even with the advent of bus/cycle lanes.

A thought: has the opportunity been lost for a before-after cyclists count?

KevR · 06-10-2011 1:49pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Obviously early 1980s, before the QB opened in ?1984.

Will we get a QBC over the QB? If motorised vehicles are to be allowed continue bombing over the QB at up to twice the speed limit, I'd prefer that at least some of them were buses.

There is no cheap or easy way to widen the bridge to add extra lanes for a bus corridor.

Unless they get rid of the foot/cycle path on one side and have a single tidal bus corridor (Eastbound in the morning and Westbound in the evening).

They could easily add a bus lane in each direction from the Menlo Park roundabout to the Tuam Road roundabout almost because there is loads of space to widen along most of that stretch

Robbo · 06-10-2011 2:45pm

KevR wrote: »

There is no cheap or easy way to widen the bridge to add extra lanes for a bus corridor.

Unless they get rid of the foot/cycle path on one side and have a single tidal bus corridor (Eastbound in the morning and Westbound in the evening).

They could easily add a bus lane in each direction from the Menlo Park roundabout to the Tuam Road roundabout almost because there is loads of space to widen along most of that stretch

A tidal bus lane is genius. It could also serve the ambulances well.

Thank for adding an original and novel idea to the thread because a lot of it has become like Maslov's hammer with the almost fanatical devotion to certain ideals.

Iwannahurl · 06-10-2011 3:59pm

Robbo wrote: »

A tidal bus lane is genius. It could also serve the ambulances well.

Thank for adding an original and novel idea to the thread because a lot of it has become like Maslov's hammer with the almost fanatical devotion to certain ideals.

That would be Maslow's Hammer? As in, when your most precious tool is a hammer everything looks like it needs a good pounding?

In Galway, and in Ireland generally, the private car would be a good example in the present context. With social status so bound up in car ownership, as exemplified by reg plate and brand envy, and with the cost of maintaining a family car in the order of twelve grand a year, the sociocultural attitude in this country seems to be "I've paid for my car so I'm damn well going to use it no matter what". Suddenly every trip seems like it has to be driven, not just just as a matter of entitlement but as a basic need (though not according to Maslow, ironically) and so we arrive at a situation in this country where, for example, tens of thousands of children are driven 1 km or less to school. I wonder what Maslow would make of Ireland's growing obesity problem, and the new phenomenon whereby the average age for patients presenting for joint replacement is decreasing?

As for tidal bus lanes on the Q. Bridge, it could be a good idea. The "cycle paths" on either side of the bridge have little or no meaning in life, IMO, and there are four lanes for motorised traffic, so there could well be scope for a whole new arrangement involving bus/cycle lanes. Worth considering in greater depth.

antoobrien · 06-10-2011 4:56pm

KevR wrote: »

There is no cheap or easy way to widen the bridge to add extra lanes for a bus corridor.

From looking at google earth there might be enough room if they put a pedestrian walkway outside the current bridge over the river to cater for pedestrian traffic (ala the the Wolfe Tone bridge). That would make enough room there for a proper cycle lane (i.e. not an extra wide footpath) and a bus lane (there are parts of the Malahide road in Dublin where it's less than 2.5m though that is tight, and where there are both a bus lane an a dedicated cycle lane it's about 3.5m wide).

Throw a fence up between the cycle lane & footpath and it would discourage running across (potential) 6 lanes of traffic. Access could be provided to both sides of the Dyke road & college could be provided using steps.

KevR wrote: »

Unless they get rid of the foot/cycle path on one side and have a single tidal bus corridor (Eastbound in the morning and Westbound in the evening).

I take it you mean that there will still be 4 "private" traffic lanes to go with the tidal lane. I don't see traffic levels dropping low enough for 2/3 lanes with bus lanes anytime soon.

Iwannahurl · 06-10-2011 8:58pm

antoobrien wrote: »

From looking at google earth there might be enough room if they put a pedestrian walkway outside the current bridge over the river to cater for pedestrian traffic (ala the the Wolfe Tone bridge). That would make enough room there for a proper cycle lane (i.e. not an extra wide footpath) and a bus lane (there are parts of the Malahide road in Dublin where it's less than 2.5m though that is tight, and where there are both a bus lane an a dedicated cycle lane it's about 3.5m wide).

Throw a fence up between the cycle lane & footpath and it would discourage running across (potential) 6 lanes of traffic. Access could be provided to both sides of the Dyke road & college could be provided using steps.

I take it you mean that there will still be 4 "private" traffic lanes to go with the tidal lane. I don't see traffic levels dropping low enough for 2/3 lanes with bus lanes anytime soon.

Thing is, converting an existing lane to a QBC would indeed reduce traffic. That's what happens when space for private car traffic is restricted (ie demand management): it tends to dissipate. Also the extra capacity for PT would facilitate modal shift, which would also reduce traffic in a virtuous cycle. Supply-side measures, eg more roads or more lanes, tend to have the opposite effect of generating more traffic in the long run.

I wonder whether any serious consideration has been given to a QBC from the SQR, over the Quincentenary Bridge and beyond? I'd bet City Direct would jump at the chance, since they're always looking for bus corridors. I have a vague recollection that Bus Eireann previously dismissed the idea of a bus route over the 'new' bridge, though I am open to correction on that.

By the way, what might 'encourage' or prompt pedestrians to run across 4-6 lanes of traffic on the bridge? Is that happening currently?

EDIT: And here it is, an "Orbital Corridor" as outlined in the Strategic Bus Study 2007:

Proposed Measures
The proposed bus priority measures will be as follows:
• Widening and redistribution of road space on Bishop O’Donnell Road to provide
a bus lane on the approach to each junction;
• Widening of Seamus Quirke Road/ Bishop O’Donnell Road, between Rahoon
Road and Browne’s Road, to provide a bus lane in each direction in addition to
two general traffic lanes;
• With-flow bus lane on the N6, over Quincentenary Bridge, and Sean Mulvoy
Road by converting one of the traffic lanes in each direction to a bus lane; and
• With-flow bus lanes on approach to N6/R339 Lynch Roundabout by converting
the hard shoulder to bus lanes.

Sponge Bob · 06-10-2011 9:11pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Thing is, converting an existing lane to a QBC would indeed reduce traffic. That's what happens when space for private car traffic is restricted (ie demand management): it tends to dissipate.

"Dissipate" meaning tailback right out to Tuam???

Iwannahurl · 06-10-2011 9:28pm

Who knows? Sometimes the traffic just 'disappears' according to Tom Vanderbilt's fascinating book, Traffic.

Looks like an SQR > Quincentenary Bridge QBC has been seriously considered for several years, and hasn't gone away.

Here's an excerpt from the GTU's Business Plan:

Engage consultants to prepare designs for the provision of Bus lanes on the corridor from Seamus Quirke Road to Moneenageisha via the Quincentenary Bridge, Sean Mulvoy Road and Moneenageisha Road, including modifications to Cemetery Cross and Moneenageisha Roundabouts.

antoobrien · 06-10-2011 9:34pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Thing is, converting an existing lane to a QBC would indeed reduce traffic.

No it creates more congestion by reducing the amount of space available.

Iwannahurl · 06-10-2011 9:51pm

antoobrien wrote: »

No it creates more congestion by reducing the amount of space available.

Not necessarily.

This phenomenon has been studied for years. See for example Cairns, Atkins & Goodwin (2002) Disappearing traffic: the story so far. Excerpt below:

Reallocating roadspace from general traffic, to improve conditions for pedestrians or cyclists or buses or on-street light rail or other high-occupancy vehicles, is often predicted to cause major traffic problems on neighbouring streets. This paper reports on two phases of research, resulting in the examination of over 70 case studies of roadspace reallocation from eleven countries, and the collation of opinions from over 200 transport professionals worldwide. The findings suggest that predictions of traffic problems are often unnecessarily alarmist, and that, given appropriate local circumstances, significant reductions in overall traffic levels can occur, with people making a far wider range of behavioural responses than has traditionally been assumed. Follow-up work has also highlighted the importance of managing how schemes are perceived by the public and reported in the media, with various lessons for avoiding problems. Finally, the findings highlight that well-designed schemes to reallocate roadspace can often contribute to a multiplicity of different policy aims and objectives.

galwaycyclist · 06-10-2011 11:27pm

antoobrien wrote: »

No it creates more congestion by reducing the amount of space available.

Uh no this is not what has been found. Car traffic is a bit like a fire to stop a fire you remove one of the necessary components heat, oxygen or fuel. Same with car traffic, road capacity and or parking is one of the things that can be removed to reduce it.

The classic example is the closure of Hammersmith bridge in London for repairs. The prediction was that the traffic would divert to adjacent routes. In fact what happened was that much of it simply "disappeared" when the bridge closed. Where it went is a source of interesting study.

Main point is that if you want to solve car based congestion in urban areas then start removing road space from the cars.

antoobrien · 07-10-2011 10:21am

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The classic example is the closure of Hammersmith bridge in London for repairs. The prediction was that the traffic would divert to adjacent routes. In fact what happened was that much of it simply "disappeared" when the bridge closed. Where it went is a source of interesting study.

Main point is that if you want to solve car based congestion in urban areas then start removing road space from the cars.

Do you remember the carmageddon fear in LA over the summer where they had to close down the 405 freeway? It didn't happen because:

"It seemed like a lot of businesses planned not to be working. There were fewer heavy- and light-duty diesel trucks on the road and it seemed like a lot of commuters weren't there either,"

Traffic can go somewhere temporarily or disappear but not for long, which is why your example is poor, but it doesn't go away permanently without serious alternative options.

What will happen if two lanes of the QB are closed off for (currently) non existent buses, is that the 35k private vehicles that use it every day will either have to find an alternate route or will stay on the now 2 lane road. This will create knock on effects (as we saw in August with the road works when there were no alternative routes).

I despair of PT & cycling enthusiasts in Galway because they ignore the fact that about half of the "work" traffic in Galway is generated from outside the city. They also ignore the fact that Galway is a significant recreational (even though I never find shopping anything but stressful) & commercial center - a large portion of which is also generated from outside the city. park & ride is only good if it's going within a short distance of your destination (say 15-20 mins walk).

These people, indeed most commuters, will not use multi modal transport schemes because they are a pain in the ar*e. I know several people who will pay more to use a bus (because they have no license) that goes within 20 mins walk of the job rather than use the dart & luas which would drop you at the door. I know more that won't use PT because it's a longer trip than taking the car (despite Dublin traffic), is always packed or does not allow any flexibility in schedules (e.g. appointments or grocery shopping - try carrying a 5kg bag of spuds for 15 minutes some time).

Iwannahurl · 07-10-2011 11:17am

Hammersmith Bridge is not the only example of the disappearing traffic phenomenon. You will note that the report I cited above considers "over 70 case studies of roadspace reallocation from eleven countries, and the collation of opinions from over 200 transport professionals worldwide".

The report also includes the caveat that "all schemes are different, and each will need to be considered according to its own circumstances". However, it concludes that when such schemes are implemented "the public are likely to react in a range of ways to changing conditions, and, if there are no easy alternative options, there are a variety of responses that people may make which, taken together, can result in the measurable loss of traffic from a network."

These evidence-based conclusions are not the opinions of enthusiasts (or ideologues, as you have suggested elsewhere) and it's long past time that a well-planned, progressive, integrated, rational and sustainable approach was taken to managing Galway City's traffic and transportation rather than the short-term, piecemeal, populist, reactionary and tokenistic approach seen to date. The GTU and City Council can't go on forever trying to "keep everybody happy" (and that's a direct quote).

However, as the above report suggests, "controversial schemes can be introduced in (easily reversible) stages" which may explain what is happening currently. Maybe the City Council are just waiting another while before extending the SQR bus lane over the bridge and beyond.

A bus lane on the SQR is but one piece of the jigsaw. A lot more is needed, but it requires political will, leadership and vision, as well as a thick skin to put up with the criticism from certain quarters as some people are asked to move out of their comfort zone.

By the way, I carry/transport two children weighing 25+ kilos in total (plus gear) on a daily basis, sometimes for a lot more than a quarter of an hour. Sometimes the load includes a bag of spuds as well.

antoobrien · 07-10-2011 11:58am

Hammersmith is a bad example because it's a temporary change in patterns, you'll need to show a permanent one.

I notice that once again when raw figures are thrown into the equation you start referring to studies, especially when peoples experiences are different from what the studies say.

Lets take this down to specifics, you're talking about, at least during peak hours (most of the Dublin bus lanes are not 24h - and they don't need to be either), reducing the capacity of the road by 50% for a currently non existent bus service. Or rather based on what I'm (not) hearing about its planning, it's an aspirational bus service.

Without supplying extra buses (capital cost, wages for drivers & maintenance staff) there'd be an effect on the existing services. Not to mention the strikes that would happen becuase the bus drivers are asked to chagne work practices.

It's all well and good saying that you should do A, B or C but do you have any idea of the logistics and side effects of what you're talking about?

What do you plan on doing with these approximately 18k vehicles (half the current usage) that you want to suddenly bar from using the road by cutting capacity in half?

Do you have any idea what the impact in terms of providing buses for these trips are? in terms of the numbers of buses to be acquired (assuming BE are allowed to) and extra driving and maintenance staff, or the impacts on existing bus services (assuming they're not). Perhaps we should consider giving a local monopoly to a private company (you're not a shareholder in CD are you?).

The outlay on moving the current pedestrian facilities to make way for a 3rd lane each way will work out better value in the long run. The intention is to provide a 24h bus lane and a dedicated cycle lane that cyclists might actually be happy with - not that it's possible to actually please the cycling lobby

On a personal note I hate using the narrow dual use bus/cycle lanes common in Dublin (which you'd end up with if you converted the current lanes on the QB) in heavy traffic. The buses generally pile up behind cyclists when traffic is too heavy to overtake us (i.e. they can't move into the next lane because of the car drivers that can't/won't use the bus), meaning that we have to either speed up. The taxis also think that they're the lords of creation (so I've no sympathy whatsoever for them) and taxis love zipping along the bus lanes creating an even bigger hazard for cyclists.

KevR · 07-10-2011 12:34pm

antoobrien wrote: »

I take it you mean that there will still be 4 "private" traffic lanes to go with the tidal lane. I don't see traffic levels dropping low enough for 2/3 lanes with bus lanes anytime soon.

Yes, I meant 4 private lanes + a tidal bus lane.

Seamus Quirke roadworks merge

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