SAS Operating in Ireland (Republic of)

OS119 · 17-01-2011 10:16am

gatecrash wrote: »

I wouldn't be so certain. Wasn't there a big hoo-ha about the USSS carrying their guns when Bush came to visit?

Now personally, if I was a VIP who warranted a bodyguard with a sidearm, then i'd want one of my guys with me the whole time, and not be transferring between jurisdictions.

on the other hand, if you were the BG, wouldn't you be wanting to stay in the juristiction where the RoE and laws on the use of force and the power of arrest were the ones you've trained with every day of your working life - and where the whole command setup that manages each operation was the one that actually had the authority to command a response?

flas · 18-01-2011 4:44am

just saying what happens on this mad little island of ours, believe it or not!

Lorelei · 18-01-2011 7:57pm

They were not SAS rather 2 technicians from 233 Signals Squdron who rather stupidly decided to take a drive through West Belfast. They were wearing uniform with civilian jackets over them and were driving a car common throughout the Brtish Army at the time, only difference was the outside had been sprayed differtent to the standard olive green the inside of the car was still olive green. Hardly an SAS or det type vehlcle..

mbiking123 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporals_killings

If you take these two guys, reasticially they were probably SAS but we will not be told that. So if british army were arrested in the Republic, they would not admit to being SAS. We may believe they are SAS but in relaity would say British Army etc.

SAS were in Gribraltar and shot dead IRA members, never told they were SAS http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/7/newsid_2516000/2516155.stm

Only thing that showed they were military apparently was they were wearing military style boots and had military weapons.

Very hard to prove someone is in SAS, even british MOD does not admit they are SAS in alot of cases

Lorelei · 18-01-2011 7:59pm

There was no GPS in the seventies

goldie fish wrote: »

If the average boy scout on the hills has one, I expect the sas would too.

Lorelei · 18-01-2011 8:07pm

Should have read this before posting mine.
Completely correct it was believed within the squadron that they decided themselves or rather the one who had been in the province for a while to take a trip through West Belfast.
Only thing I disagree with is the units - at the time 39 Brigade was responsible for Belfast like all Brigades there was a HQ and Signal Squadron also based in Lisburn was 233 Signal Squadron which was the squadron in support of HQNI and had a province wide role in supporting other squadrons.

OS119 wrote: »

the two corporals were not SAS, neither were they 14 int or any other of the 'hairys', they were members of the Royal Signals unit that supported HQNI - the reason they look like something they weren't was because they were in plain clothes and driving a unmarked car. being in plain clothes and driving an unmarked car was actually very common during OP BANNER for those soldiers who job was the support of the Army (technicians, loggies, signallers etc..) because their job required them to visit lots of locations, and there was never the manpower (or threat) to enable them/require them to travel with a large escort in a 'fully toolled -up' manner.

the actual circumstances of their deaths are as tragic as they were foreseeable - one of the Cpls had just arrived in Belfast and was being shown around by the other so he could familiarise himself with the areas he would have to drive through, and how to drive through these areas, in order to do his job. the only unknown (and unknowable) is whether the Cpl doing the showing around got lost/diverted and was 'funnelled' into a location he knew about but didn't want to go to, or whether he was 'big-timing' and deliberately going to place/situation he wasn't trained for.

the incident has long been a case study in how not to operate - there was no 'this is where we're going, this is the route, this is what time we'll be back and this is what will happen if it goes wrong' plan agreed with their unit, 39 Bde or the RUC, they weren't part of the communications net so they couldn't effectively cry for help or be warned off by other assets, and neither of the soldiers had been trained in undercover operations (they had been given a 'this is a Browning 9mm pistol, here's 20 rounds, fire them at that target and go about your business for a year' range package before starting the tour, but that was it).

things changed pretty rapidly afterwards - any soldier in NI who might at any stage need to travel in plain clothes had to do a range, navigation, counter-surveilance and driving package before they went and to do refresher days during their tour. but their CO should still have been fcuking shot.

Lorelei · 18-01-2011 8:11pm

The camp in Germany was Herford at the time home to 4 Division HQ and Signal Regiment and 7 Signal Regiment, approx 1.500 Royal Signals stationed there at any one time.
The E is missing in the German town.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

wasn't one of the guys carrying his id badge for his previous base in Germany, Herevene is it or something like that. I read somewhere that this was mistaken for Hereford, hence the sas rumours.

goldie fish · 18-01-2011 9:14pm

Lorelei wrote: »

There was no GPS in the seventies

Well done einstein. Any chance you'd put my post in context?

Lorelei · 18-01-2011 9:42pm

You seem to have missed the point of my answer.
I agree with your comment earlier about the lack of signage etc and how easy it was to cross the border, and yes the Irish Army and the Garda did wander across from time to time.
I was answering the comment made as to use of GPS to prevent crossing the border and to pinpoint a users exact position. Nowadays they would have GPS of course.
The user name by the way is not Einstein and pesonally I have no intention in getting involved in one of these stupid, childish name calling convesations which so often ruin interesting sensible threads.

da_hambo · 20-01-2011 11:15pm

Regarding the two plain clothes BA soldiers (whatever their unit), I think everyone will agree that the footage shown on Reeling In The Years of their murder is sickening. The way so many people descend on the car is disgusting akin to rats imo, and disgracing this island of ours yet again. Thank God, those troubled days have somewhat turned a bit better.

RMD · 21-01-2011 12:18am

In the case of the corporal killings was it not simply that they had just gotten off duty and decided to drive home via the Falls road (stupidly and apparently against recommendations given) instead of the nearby M1 motorway? Nothing more than a case of wrong place wrong time.

goldie fish · 21-01-2011 1:27am

RMD wrote: »

In the case of the corporal killings was it not simply that they had just gotten off duty and decided to drive home via the Falls road (stupidly and apparently against recommendations given) instead of the nearby M1 motorway? Nothing more than a case of wrong place wrong time.

Was the M1 Complete at that stage?

RMD · 21-01-2011 1:32am

goldie fish wrote: »

Was the M1 Complete at that stage?

I'm not entirely sure if it was the M1 or another nearby motorway, the one I'm talking about that along the back of the Milltown cemetery.

Victor · 21-01-2011 1:41am

goldie fish wrote: »

Was the M1 Complete at that stage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_motorway_(Northern_Ireland)

Junctions 1 to 6 opened on 10 July 1962

goldie fish · 21-01-2011 1:54am

Ah, didn't realise. Used to always enter through Lisburn.(or train)

martic · 26-01-2011 1:30am

Steyr wrote: »

AT 10.40pm on May 5 1976 SAS soldiers Illisoni Ligairi and John Lawson were stopped at an Irish army/Garda checkpoint on the Flagstaff Road between Newry and Omeath.

Here's an article that may interest some.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/fiji/1344426/Fijian-coup-colonel-took-part-in-SAS-blunder.html

Funfair · 26-01-2011 6:09pm

da_hambo wrote: »

Regarding the two plain clothes BA soldiers (whatever their unit), I think everyone will agree that the footage shown on Reeling In The Years of their murder is sickening. The way so many people descend on the car is disgusting akin to rats imo, and disgracing this island of ours yet again. Thank God, those troubled days have somewhat turned a bit better.

The funeral was for a young man murdered the week before at the Gibraltar 3 Funeral (Who were also Murdered). A car comes backwards around a corner at high speed into the funeral path and you say your suprised at the way people acted?

A lot of people on here really haven't a clue about what went on in the troubles and the shameful way so call irish people support the BA or SAS on here is sickening

Lorelei · 26-01-2011 7:56pm

"Backwards at high speed" you were there?
Sickening the way people support the people responsible for the carnage amongst civilians on Bloody Friday in Belfast, or Omagh or Claudy. The "young man" whose funeral it was was supposed to be a soldier according to the beliefs of people like you, soldiers get killed which is why I don't class the M62 coach bombing which included a couple of civilians or the mini bus with Lisburn soldiers returning from a chartiy match.

And please ensure that we do not remembet the Para sergeant who threw himself on top of a suitcase thrown into the public room of the RUC Springfield which was filled with civilians from the area. I think we can savely assume that those people were not particularly keen on the British Army.

What was the name of the Provo/UVF soldier who did a similar thing? Oh there wasn't one!

charlemont · 26-01-2011 8:07pm

da_hambo wrote: »

Regarding the two plain clothes BA soldiers (whatever their unit), I think everyone will agree that the footage shown on Reeling In The Years of their murder is sickening. The way so many people descend on the car is disgusting akin to rats imo, and disgracing this island of ours yet again. Thank God, those troubled days have somewhat turned a bit better.

Not sickened at all by it..

Lorelei · 26-01-2011 8:44pm

The scenes of supposedly decent human beings kicking and ripping 2 members of their own species apart and acting in a way wild beasts such as sharks, big cats etc act you don't find sickening unless of course you classify yourself and such people as the same as wild animals. Interesting.
I don't classify those who committed the act as I can quite understand their feeling that way as I have done myself but was able to control the feelings.
I cannot believe that any human cannot be sickened by those sites.
Maybe though you don't belong to the same species as the rest of us Charlemont!!

charlemont · 26-01-2011 8:54pm

Lorelei wrote: »

The scenes of supposedly decent human beings kicking and ripping 2 members of their own species apart and acting in a way wild beasts such as sharks, big cats etc act you don't find sickening unless of course you classify yourself and such people as the same as wild animals. Interesting.
I don't classify those who committed the act as I can quite understand their feeling that way as I have done myself but was able to control the feelings.
I cannot believe that any human cannot be sickened by those sites.
Maybe though you don't belong to the same species as the rest of us Charlemont!!

Im special, Iv my own species..

Wolfe Tone · 26-01-2011 8:59pm

Lorelei wrote: »

The scenes of supposedly decent human beings kicking and ripping 2 members of their own species apart and acting in a way wild beasts such as sharks, big cats etc act you don't find sickening unless of course you classify yourself and such people as the same as wild animals. Interesting.
I don't classify those who committed the act as I can quite understand their feeling that way as I have done myself but was able to control the feelings.
I cannot believe that any human cannot be sickened by those sites.
Maybe though you don't belong to the same species as the rest of us Charlemont!!

Its not nice to see no. I think they were taken away and killed, not killed by the crowd.

cyrusdvirus · 27-01-2011 11:43am

Funfair wrote: »

The funeral was for a young man murdered the week before at the Gibraltar 3 Funeral

Wrong. The funeral was for one of the victims of Stones attack, an IRA volunteer.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 27-01-2011 12:14pm

charlemont wrote: »

Not sickened at all by it..

That is probably the most extreme comment I have ever seen on Boards.

I would think pretty much every human would be sickened by that violence, regardless of who the victims were. Pretty scary to think people are de-sentised to that sort of stuff.

getz · 27-01-2011 12:26pm

Funfair wrote: »

The funeral was for a young man murdered the week before at the Gibraltar 3 Funeral (Who were also Murdered). A car comes backwards around a corner at high speed into the funeral path and you say your suprised at the way people acted?

A lot of people on here really haven't a clue about what went on in the troubles and the shameful way so call irish people support the BA or SAS on here is sickening

how can you say that the gib three were murdered,when the IRA acknowleded that the three were on active service;meaning they were on a mission to strike against a british target;,at the time of their deaths they made threatenings moves against the SAS, the tip off that they intended to set of a remote control bomb,came from a member of the IRA [double agent denis donaldson] who had been at that time, the the IRAs contact with the basque terrorists,you tell the spanish, french,british,or the people of gib that they were murdered,

cyrusdvirus · 27-01-2011 12:28pm

getz wrote: »

how can you say that the gib three were murdered,when the IRA acknowledged that the three were on active service;meaning they were on a mission to strike against a British target;,at the time of their deaths they made threatening moves against the SAS, the tip off that they intended to set of a remote control bomb,came from a member of the IRA [double agent Denis Donaldson] who had been at that time, the the IRAs contact with the Basque terrorists,you tell the Spanish, French,British,or the people of gib that they were murdered,

In fairness Getz, i don't think funfair has his facts straight at all.

PatsytheNazi · 27-01-2011 12:40pm

Lorelei wrote: »

"Backwards at high speed" you were there?
Sickening the way people support the people responsible for the carnage amongst civilians on Bloody Friday in Belfast, or Omagh or Claudy.

Your big friends in the RUC hierqarchy and MI5 had more than a little hand in Omagh and Claudy. Police Ombudsman Nuala O'Loan didn't recommend " the setting up of a new investigation team independent of the PSNI " for nothing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/1707299.stm

The "young man" whose funeral it was was supposed to be a soldier according to the beliefs of people like you, soldiers get killed which is why I don't class the M62 coach bombing which included a couple of civilians or the mini bus with Lisburn soldiers returning from a chartiy match.

The, as you refer to, "young man" was Caoimhín Mac Brádaigh, an unarmed IRA member killed while trying to chase and disarm Stone.

And please ensure that we do not remembet the Para sergeant who threw himself on top of a suitcase thrown into the public room of the RUC Springfield which was filled with civilians from the area. I think we can savely assume that those people were not particularly keen on the British Army.

What was the name of the Provo/UVF soldier who did a similar thing? Oh there wasn't one!

" the Para sergeant who threw himself on top of a suitcase thrown into the public room " :rolleyes: And I suppose he had been helping little old ladies across the road just a few moments before :rolleyes:

Caoimhín Mac Brádaigh had more guts and integrity in his little finger than that scumbag from the cowardly, murdering ba$tards known as the Parachute regiment.

getz · 27-01-2011 12:53pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Your big friends in the RUC hierqarchy and MI5 had more than a little hand in Omagh and Claudy. Police Ombudsman Nuala O'Loan didn't recommend " the setting up of a new investigation team independent of the PSNI " for nothing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/1707299.stm

The, as you refer to, "young man" was Caoimhín Mac Brádaigh, an unarmed IRA member killed while trying to chase and disarm Stone.

" the Para sergeant who threw himself on top of a suitcase thrown into the public room " :rolleyes: And I suppose he had been helping little old ladies across the road just a few moments before :rolleyes:

Caoimhín Mac Brádaigh had more guts and integrity in his little finger than that scumbag from the cowardly, murdering ba$tards known as the Parachute regiment.

i take it you take your holidays with the boys in columbia ?

Funfair · 27-01-2011 1:02pm

gatecrash wrote: »

Wrong. The funeral was for one of the victims of Stones attack, an IRA volunteer.

Gatecrashing a post without actually reading it is a pet hate of mine

The funeral that stone attacked was the Gibraltar 3 funeral and that's what I said

Funfair · 27-01-2011 1:05pm

gatecrash wrote: »

In fairness Getz, i don't think funfair has his facts straight at all.

And you’re basing this assumption on misreading peoples posts is it?

cyrusdvirus · 27-01-2011 1:09pm

Funfair wrote: »

Gatecrashing a post without actually reading it is a pet hate of mine

The funeral that stone attacked was the Gibraltar 3 funeral and that's what I said

Re-read your post.

you quoted this post

Originally Posted by da_hambo View Post
Regarding the two plain clothes BA soldiers (whatever their unit), I think everyone will agree that the footage shown on Reeling In The Years of their murder is sickening. The way so many people descend on the car is disgusting akin to rats imo, and disgracing this island of ours yet again. Thank God, those troubled days have somewhat turned a bit better.

and replied with this

The funeral was for a young man murdered the week before at the Gibraltar 3 Funeral (Who were also Murdered). A car comes backwards around a corner at high speed into the funeral path and you say your suprised at the way people acted?

A lot of people on here really haven't a clue about what went on in the troubles and the shameful way so call irish people support the BA or SAS on here is sickening

cyrusdvirus · 27-01-2011 1:11pm

Funfair wrote: »

And you’re basing this assumption on misreading peoples posts is it?

Misreading? I think not.

PatsytheNazi · 27-01-2011 1:25pm

getz wrote: »

i take it you take your holidays with the boys in columbia ?

No I'm going for a pint in the pub on the Andersontown Road unoffically named the Corporal's Rest in honour of Howes and Wood killed nearby

Funfair · 27-01-2011 1:34pm

getz wrote: »

at the time of their deaths they made threatenings moves against the SAS

A come on... you serious? Threatening moves ? They were shot down in cold blood,the 3 were unarmed at the time of the shooting which in any law abiding Country is murder.One SAS guy stood on Sean Savage's chest and emptied his gun into his face. Eye witness reports said the other 2 had there hands up when they were shot by the SAS.

It was either Murder or a War crime!! take your pick but the rules of engagement was broke that day or any other day a Government allows unarmed men/women be shot with there hands up even if they were on Active service.

This is the reason the crowd acted the way they did when the corporal's car came at high speed in reverse straight into the funeral. Tension on both sides of the border was at his highest at that time. For the guy that asked was I there NO but I'm old enough to remember it.

Both incidents were barbaric Thankfuly we have moved on from it all..

Funfair · 27-01-2011 1:47pm

gatecrash wrote: »

Re-read your post.

gatecrash wrote: »

Misreading? I think not.

Try read it again slowly this time

PatsytheNazi · 27-01-2011 1:54pm

Funfair wrote: »

A come on... you serious? Threatening moves ? They were shot down in cold blood,the 3 were unarmed at the time of the shooting which in any law abiding Country is murder.One SAS guy stood on Sean Savage's chest and emptied his gun into his face. Eye witness reports said the other 2 had there hands up when they were shot by the SAS.

It was either Murder or a War crime!! take your pick but the rules of engagement was broke that day or any other day a Government allows unarmed men/women be shot with there hands up even if they were on Active service.

This is the reason the crowd acted the way they did when the corporal's car came at high speed in reverse straight into the funeral. Tension on both sides of the border was at his highest at that time. For the guy that asked was I there NO but I'm old enough to remember it.

Both incidents were barbaric Thankfuly we have moved on from it all..

Not only that, but while they were obviously dead they continued reloading and empty bullets into them to desecrate the bodies. But what could you expect from a regiemnt that draws half it's members from the Parachute regiment. Naturally enough, such acts wouldn't be described as "sickening, horrendous and appalling" by our wee SAS fans now will they. The deaths of Howes and Wood took the smirk of their face.

Locust · 27-01-2011 2:58pm

Nope, good on them for emptying their clips - can't take any chances with terrorist scum. The jury at the inquest returned a verdict of lawful killing by a majority.

Funfair · 27-01-2011 3:16pm

after witness's were intimated and ridiculed in the British papers :rolleyes:

Poccington · 27-01-2011 5:21pm

Lads, less of the nonsense posts please. There really is no need to attempt to wind each other up, you're all capable of far better posts than what's on display in this thread.

Wolfe Tone · 27-01-2011 5:33pm

Theres a news report with some footage, frightening stuff, albeit an understandable reaction.

RMD · 27-01-2011 10:35pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Not only that, but while they were obviously dead they continued reloading and empty bullets into them to desecrate the bodies. But what could you expect from a regiemnt that draws half it's members from the Parachute regiment. Naturally enough, such acts wouldn't be described as "sickening, horrendous and appalling" by our wee SAS fans now will they. The deaths of Howes and Wood took the smirk of their face.

I don't support the actions of the SAS or the PARAs, both were scumbags but I also don't see how you can take the side of the IRA ASU which were also in essence planning murders of not only BA members who weren't serving in NI but it would also injure / maim / kill civilians at the change of guard.

Both sides involved in any form of unjustified violence during the Troubles were scumbags, whether it was Bloody Sunday or Bloody Friday, the Bally Murphy massacre or the Remembrance parade bombings.

BigDuffman · 31-01-2011 4:34pm

Sickening..but from the mobs perspective it was an unmarked car with armed men coming out a window with a pistol. Its not a justified reaction, but you could say understandable.

HappyHammered · 31-01-2011 5:33pm

I was 17 when i first saw that footage and it's had the same impact on me today as it did then.................shock, numbed, sickened,
disillusionment, pity, sorrow.

As a 17 year old it made me question alot of things and it opened my eyes to what we are capable of when pursuing a certain ideal.

I still think we can achieve a 32 County Irish Republic but not like this!!!

twinytwo · 02-02-2011 6:28pm

RMD wrote: »

I don't support the actions of the SAS or the PARAs, both were scumbags but I also don't see how you can take the side of the IRA ASU which were also in essence planning murders of not only BA members who weren't serving in NI but it would also injure / maim / kill civilians at the change of guard.

Both sides involved in any form of unjustified violence during the Troubles were scumbags, whether it was Bloody Sunday or Bloody Friday, the Bally Murphy massacre or the Remembrance parade bombings.

But one is an illegal terrorist groups... compared to what is supposed to be a well trained first class fully professional army...

Locust · 02-02-2011 8:55pm

Funfair wrote: »

A come on... you serious? Threatening moves ? They were shot down in cold blood,the 3 were unarmed at the time of the shooting which in any law abiding Country is murder...

For example - If your a known terrorist - al-Qa'ida/IRA whatever. And you're near your acting suspcious - have no business being where you are and you turn towards me and put your hand in your pocket - i'd blow your head clean off your shoulders... 100 times over.

Cold blood? And uh, admitted to being 'active' ira (hot blooded hatred right there) and having a bomb etc - semtex, scoping out the area with the intention to rip fathers mothers and brothers apart isn't a threatening move?

With attitudes like this - I'm delighted things ended the way they did at Gibraltar.

Whats that @Funfair? After witnesses were intimidated by british newspapers? Jeez. Nothing like the 'boys' from Armagh knockin on yer door huh?
Yawn...

RMD · 02-02-2011 9:27pm

twinytwo wrote: »

But one is an illegal terrorist groups... compared to what is supposed to be a well trained first class fully professional army...

That makes no difference to my point, whether you're a terrorist force or an elite forces unit of a well respect army if either were involved in unjustifiable violence, those involved were scumbags simple as, regardless of whether they were IRA or BA members.

The IRA weren't just a regular terrorist force, they are regarded as one of the most successful terrorist forces to take on an army of a first world country worldwide. I don't support or want to glorify them in anyway, but some of their statistics are incredible compared to others.

Daniel S · 05-02-2011 10:37pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Theres a news report with some footage, frightening stuff, albeit an understandable reaction.

Why did this happen? We're they rouge soldiers trying to shoot people? I don't get it?

OS119 · 05-02-2011 11:52pm

mtb_kng wrote: »

Why did this happen? We're they rouge soldiers trying to shoot people? I don't get it?

read page 5.

Dogwatch · 05-02-2011 11:58pm

mtb_kng wrote: »

Why did this happen? We're they rouge soldiers trying to shoot people? I don't get it?

This may help to enlighten you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milltown_Cemetery_attack

In the section Aftermath it gives a brief of the events which you see in the video

Another sad chapter in a very long and sad book

Wolfe Tone · 06-02-2011 2:17am

mtb_kng wrote: »

Why did this happen? We're they rouge soldiers trying to shoot people? I don't get it?

Basically a funeral was attacked a few days earlier and the loyalist killed the persons whose funeral is in that video, thus when a car with armed people sped into the procession people assumed it was the same thing again.

harryd2 · 06-02-2011 2:21am

crazy hyped time... mutsa been nuts..
I never understood how those soldiers were discovered..
I mean if yer a British soldier in such a place/scene, you try to keep as low a profile as possible (or not be there in the first place)
They musta been intelligence gathering and were razzled by accident by some passer by..

SAS Operating in Ireland (Republic of)

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