Tesco Maynooth

Sesshoumaru · 31-12-2011 5:55pm #1

So I finally got to go to my local Tesco and plug-in while shopping.

I think it's great these are becoming more common. You'll never have to worry about range for urban / suburban driving if you can conveniently plug-in and charge at whatever destination you're going to.

L1011 · 31-12-2011 6:08pm

First time I've ever seen a car using those.

Are you paying for the charges yet?

biko · 31-12-2011 6:10pm

Suppose it's good for business as e-cars? owners will probably go there for their shopping.

L1011 · 31-12-2011 6:18pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Cool one charging point!

There's actually two there I think.

Compared to the 16 at the petrol station 100 metres away, which fill the cars quicker and for an actually practical range...

Bandara · 31-12-2011 6:20pm

Be quite a long time before it becomes even slightly common in forecourts

€10,000 to put the charge point in, €1,400 a year maintenance contract and the loss of valuable forecourt space to a area that will be used VERY rarely.

Its not even a consideration for a normal station, economic madness to put one in.

In ten years or whatever years it take to have 5% of the cars electric then maybe.

MugMugs · 31-12-2011 6:32pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

MYOB wrote: »

There's actually two there I think.

Compared to the 16 at the petrol station 100 metres away, which fill the cars quicker and for an actually practical range...

Cool two charging points!

Supply and demand I suppose. Sadly we will be reliant on these soon!

Sesshoumaru · 31-12-2011 6:40pm

The current Nissan Leaf can't use it, The Leaf's AC port only supports 220volt, 16 amp on a single phase. But the Renault Fluence ZE supports 32 amps on 3 phases, which all on street charging posts the ESB install support. So a Fluence ZE owner could go from 0% to 100% in 1 hour on the same charging post. More useful for Renault EV owners, but I won't say no to a few electrons wherever I can get them.

Right now they're free and the ports open when you pass your RFID card over them. I'm told eventually the electricity you use from on street chargers will end up on your electricity bill. Free until the middle of next year the ESB keep telling us

Atlantic Dawn · 31-12-2011 6:49pm

Interesting, hopefully they restrict those spaces to only electric cars and only those being charged.

L1011 · 31-12-2011 6:59pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Interesting, hopefully they restrict those spaces to only electric cars and only those being charged.

They're at almost the furthest extent of the site, over beside the glass/alu/clothes recycling area (which has its own pull in bay) and McDonalds (which has its own car park). And due to there being about 1400 spaces and all free, its highly unlikely a non electric car would ever have need to park there.

The spaces were empty any time I was down in the days before Christmas, for instance - despite there being queues to try and park in the covered area!

Bandara · 31-12-2011 7:01pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The current Nissan Leaf can't use it, The Leaf's AC port only supports 220volt, 16 amp on a single phase. But the Renault Fluence ZE supports 32 amps on 3 phases, which all on street charging posts the ESB install support. So a Fluence ZE owner could go from 0% to 100% in 1 hour on the same charging post. More useful for Renault EV owners, but I won't say no to a few electrons wherever I can get them.

Right now they're free and the ports open when you pass your RFID card over them. I'm told eventually the electricity you use from on street chargers will end up on your electricity bill. Free until the middle of next year the ESB keep telling us

Am I getting this correct;

there isnt a standard universal recharging fitting for Electric Cars?

Thats a joke and a huge issue if true

Mr Benevolent · 31-12-2011 7:07pm

Hammertime wrote: »

Am I getting this correct;

there isnt a standard universal recharging fitting for Electric Cars?

Thats a joke and a huge issue if true

I wondered about that. Bizzare, especially since Nissan are longtime partners with Renault.

L1011 · 31-12-2011 7:09pm

Confab wrote: »

I wondered about that. Bizzare, especially since Nissan are longtime partners with Renault.

For "longtime partners", substitute "heavily owned and controlled by"

Lex Luthor · 31-12-2011 7:39pm

Maybe the Leaf can have a special cable that only uses one of the phases from the 3 phase charging points?

MugMugs · 31-12-2011 7:42pm

It's like the Nokia phone charger thing all over again. Q the EU rolling in on this one!

Owen · 31-12-2011 7:51pm

And don't forget, even if you buy a Renault electric vehicle, you then rent the battery in it. Its like going to a restaurant, paying for your dinner, and then paying again for the cutlery. What a crock of sh*t!

Sesshoumaru · 31-12-2011 7:54pm

Hammertime wrote: »

Am I getting this correct;

there isnt a standard universal recharging fitting for Electric Cars?

Thats a joke and a huge issue if true

The Renault and Nissan EV's use the same J1772 connector

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Compatible_vehicle_models

From videos and articles I find online most manufacturers are going with this. The Renault Fluence, Twizy, Kangoo and Zoe use this as well, although they're not listed on that Wikipedia page. Reviews I've seen of the Volvo EV and hybrid all seem to have the J1772 connector as well.

Sesshoumaru · 31-12-2011 8:10pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Interesting, hopefully they restrict those spaces to only electric cars and only those being charged.

I think MYOB covered the necessity of that for these spaces. Tesco Extra in Maynooth is huge and they stuck these spaces in the least desirable place to park

Smarter Transport 2011 bill is supposed to give the Local Authorities the power to make charging bays for EV's only amongst other stuff.

pajo1981 · 31-12-2011 8:14pm

Owen wrote: »

And don't forget, even if you buy a Renault electric vehicle, you then rent the battery in it. Its like going to a restaurant, paying for your dinner, and then paying again for the cutlery. What a crock of sh*t!

It's not, because the renault costs a not insignificant 10k less to buy than the nissan.

An as for 'impracticable range', these cars would cover the vast majority of journeys taken out of a town like maynooth, within range, and then some.

Mister Dread · 31-12-2011 8:17pm

That place is a disaster for handicap parking. The whole front of the underground car park has handicap spaces which might see two cars in them on a good day.

Bumpstop · 31-12-2011 8:22pm

I dunno how anyone can be so iresponsible to the enviroment as to buy a battery car. the pollution caused making the batteries is huge. Most of Irelands real electricity is made from burning fossil fuels. Don't mention wind to me, it's the biggest con ever.

Ok ok a bit tongue in cheek but still............

Owen · 31-12-2011 8:27pm

pajo1981 wrote: »

It's not, because the renault costs a not insignificant 10k less to buy than the nissan.

It's definitely a crock of sh*t because Renault are shouting from the rooftops that their electric vehicles cost no more than diesel cars - plainly, it's not the truth. They forget to mention that you need to rent the batterys afterwards. How the advertising regulator lets them get away with it is beyond me.

I do however really like the Renault Kangoo ZE - I think if companies in the city centre doing deliveries used these it would make a difference, An Post, Florists, and the like. But the price point is still far too high for electric vehicles in general.

pajo1981 · 31-12-2011 8:31pm

Bumpstop wrote: »

Most of Irelands real electricity is made from burning fossil fuels

Whatever about your other points, you can scratch that one if you want to sound remotely credible.

-Fossil fuel burning station are considerably more efficient/cleaner than ICEs.

dharn · 31-12-2011 8:31pm

its only a matter of time before someone in a daesil parks in one of those bays

Sesshoumaru · 31-12-2011 8:32pm

Owen wrote: »

It's definitely a crock of sh*t because Renault are shouting from the rooftops that their electric vehicles cost no more than diesel cars - plainly, it's not the truth. They forget to mention that you need to rent the batterys afterwards. How the advertising regulator lets them get away with it is beyond me.

I do however really like the Renault Kangoo ZE - I think if companies in the city centre doing deliveries used these it would make a difference, An Post, Florists, and the like. But the price point is still far too high for electric vehicles in general.

I'm not in the business of using vans or have any requirement for one. I did however take the Kangoo ZE for a test drive. Seemed perfect for use in cities as a delivery van. Unlike the Fluence ZE it has the batteries underneath the rear floor space, which meant it had a completely level load area.

pajo1981 · 31-12-2011 8:33pm

Owen wrote: »

It's definitely a crock of sh*t because Renault are shouting from the rooftops that their electric vehicles cost no more than diesel cars - plainly, it's not the truth. They forget to mention that you need to rent the batterys afterwards. How the advertising regulator lets them get away with it is beyond me.

That's erring on the side of sharp, alright.

E39MSport · 31-12-2011 8:37pm

I'm parking my 850 across those two fokkers tomorrow

L1011 · 31-12-2011 9:00pm

E39MSport wrote: »

I'm parking my 850 across those two fokkers tomorrow

Its not like anyone other than the OP is ever going to use them, so assuming he's done his shopping for the week and doesn't want a taxpayer-funded charge, you're OK.

Bumpstop · 31-12-2011 9:26pm

pajo1981 wrote: »

Whatever about your other points, you can scratch that one if you want to sound remotely credible.

-Fossil fuel burning station are considerably more efficient/cleaner than ICEs.

I'm not so sure they all are, but noone is touting the ICE as green. Whereas you would think electricity came from cuddling daisies the way they are marketing these cars.

E39MSport · 31-12-2011 9:28pm

Indeed, and you should see the deserts they leave behind on the bogs.

... not to mention this

pajo1981 · 31-12-2011 10:01pm

E39MSport wrote: »

Indeed, and you should see the deserts they leave behind on the bogs.

... not to mention this

Every EV journey reduces a bog, like the one in this picture, to a smoldering radioactive wasteland.

Drummerboy08 · 31-12-2011 10:14pm

Owen wrote: »

And don't forget, even if you buy a Renault electric vehicle, you then rent the battery in it. Its like going to a restaurant, paying for your dinner, and then paying again for the cutlery. What a crock of sh*t!

It actually makes more sense to lease the battery like Renault than to include it in the cost of the car like Nissan did.

The battery in the Leaf has an expected life of around 7 years. This means in 7 years time, the proud owner of a Leaf has to fork out up to 12k for a new battery, whereas Mr Renault EV owner doesn't need to worry about that because he never owns the battery.

Much better system IMO. It also makes sense when you consider that Renault are developing a system where you drive into an EV centre, and your empty batter is swapped for a charged battery.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The Renault and Nissan EV's use the same J1772 connector

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Compatible_vehicle_models

From videos and articles I find online most manufacturers are going with this. The Renault Fluence, Twizy, Kangoo and Zoe use this as well, although they're not listed on that Wikipedia page. Reviews I've seen of the Volvo EV and hybrid all seem to have the J1772 connector as well.

IIRC, the Leaf and the Fluence cannot use the same quick charge points. I did training on this recently, but I can't remember for the life of my what the reasons were for it.

Sesshoumaru · 31-12-2011 11:22pm

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

It actually makes more sense to lease the battery like Renault than to include it in the cost of the car like Nissan did.

The battery in the Leaf has an expected life of around 7 years. This means in 7 years time, the proud owner of a Leaf has to fork out up to 12k for a new battery, whereas Mr Renault EV owner doesn't need to worry about that because he never owns the battery.

Much better system IMO. It also makes sense when you consider that Renault are developing a system where you drive into an EV centre, and your empty batter is swapped for a charged battery.

IIRC, the Leaf and the Fluence cannot use the same quick charge points. I did training on this recently, but I can't remember for the life of my what the reasons were for it.

I don't want to get into another battery debate, so for now I'll just point out that the Leaf battery has an 8 year warranty in the US.

The Leaf has two ports on the front.

The one on the right of the picture is the J1772 which the Renault also has. The one on the left is the DC port which can you use the 50,000 watt DC fast chargers.

The Renault can rapid charge on the J1772 port by using 3 phase, or so I've heard. That's why I think you'll hear them referred to as either a fast charger (50kw DC) or rapid charger (3 phase AC).

Sesshoumaru · 31-12-2011 11:34pm

E39MSport wrote: »

I'm parking my 850 across those two fokkers tomorrow

I think last time I checked there were 40 Leaf's sold in all of Ireland this year! Don't hold your breath hoping you'll actually inconvenience anyone if you park there

Anyways cable is quite long, so I imagine I'll be able to run it over your car after I park behind you

vetstu · 01-01-2012 10:28am

Would it be possible for a less reputable membr of society to remove the charging cable while you were shopping? Or do you have to sit and watch it charging.

Sesshoumaru · 01-01-2012 11:09am

vetstu wrote: »

Would it be possible for a less reputable membr of society to remove the charging cable while you were shopping? Or do you have to sit and watch it charging.

It's locked at both ends. I guess someone could still take it with the right equipment. A big hammer maybe? I don't think that would be the smartest idea though. Do less reputable members of society usually go around vandalising live electrical equipment?

vetstu · 01-01-2012 11:25am

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

It's locked at both ends. I guess someone could still take it with the right equipment. A big hammer maybe? I don't think that would be the smartest idea though. Do less reputable members of society usually go around vandalising live electrical equipment?

Didn't know it was locked. Cheers. Sure the hoors would rob anything thats not tied down

E39MSport · 01-01-2012 11:48am

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

It's locked at both ends. I guess someone could still take it with the right equipment. A big hammer maybe? I don't think that would be the smartest idea though. Do less reputable members of society usually go around vandalising live electrical equipment?

Yes. Copper robberies from live sub stations are an increasing problem.

Bodhan · 01-01-2012 11:54am

There are two good reasons for Renault to lease the battery to you.

Battery technology is moving fast, as the range of the battery improves the Renault owner can change up at no extra cost.
Say you buy a Leaf with 120kms range and go to sell it in 4 years and by then the Leaf is being sold with a 250kms range or more, what happens to your car?

The second reason is the initial cost, the Fluence is far cheaper to buy than the Leaf; bigger car too.

No matter what happens you always have the latest battery with Renault.

unkel · 01-01-2012 3:50pm

Bodhan wrote: »

There are two good reasons for Renault to lease the battery to you.

Good points, but the €1,000 or so the battery hire costs for the year completely destroys any savings in fuel over an ordinary petrol car for many owners

L1011 · 01-01-2012 3:52pm

Bodhan wrote: »

Battery technology is moving fast,

Stop drinking the kool-aid. Battery technology has been static for years. The Fluence ZE owner isn't going to get a better battery off Renault when the first wears out.

We've had the "battery technology will improve!" line for twenty years and guess what? It hasn't. It won't.

Sesshoumaru · 01-01-2012 5:50pm

MYOB wrote: »

Stop drinking the kool-aid. Battery technology has been static for years. The Fluence ZE owner isn't going to get a better battery off Renault when the first wears out.

We've had the "battery technology will improve!" line for twenty years and guess what? It hasn't. It won't.

As per the thread though (& ignoring your personal opinion based point) the infrastructure to support EV's is increasing.

L1011 · 01-01-2012 6:29pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

As per the thread though (& ignoring your personal opinion based point) the infrastructure to support EV's is increasing.

Once again, fact becomes "opinion" when you disagree with it.

Extra charge points don't make an inherently short-range vehicle any more practical; particularly when the charge points are being placed at the taxpayer (and ESB customer) expense rather than funded by EV owners.

Drummerboy08 · 01-01-2012 7:11pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I don't want to get into another battery debate, so for now I'll just point out that the Leaf battery has an 8 year warranty in the US.

Thats not really my point though. As I said, the battery only has a certain lifespan, after which it needs to be replaced. This is not covered under warranty and is a cost that needs to be met by the owner.

This is why it makes more sense to lease the battery ala Renault.

Absurdum · 01-01-2012 9:06pm

Nissan addresses Leaf battery life, replacement costs

Hundreds, not thousands.

That's the word from Nissan's chief vice-president of global marketing communications, Simon Sproule, who believes that after five years of repeated use, the battery pack in the Nissan Leaf may require some maintenance, but not complete replacement.

Nissan states that after five years (or 60,000 miles) of use, the Leaf's battery pack will still retain at least 80 percent of its original 24-kWh capacity. But if the pack dips below that 80-percent threshold, then Nissan says individual module swap outs – not entire battery pack replacements – will be the most likely solution. Sproule stated:
There's been a lot of debate online about the replacement cost of the battery and it's very unlikely that anyone's going to have to replace the entire battery pack. Typically people will need to replace modules and we can open up the battery pack and do that. There's been a lot of chatter online about tens of thousands of dollars or euros to replace a whole battery pack, but really you want to focus on the modules and these will be in the hundreds, not the thousands.
As for the common concern that daily use of a quick-charge (Level 3) station will degrade battery life, Sproule responded:
If someone uses the fast charging system every day, they would be doing more than 200 miles [daily] and on an annual basis that would be over 70,000 miles. There aren't many people that drive 70,000 miles a year in any car so it's an unlikely scenario that someone would be fast charging every day. The constant heavy recharge cycle is the extreme and we engineer for the extreme but the reality day-to-day will be nowhere near that.
Looks like Sproule has his hands full dispelling Nissan Leaf myths.

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/30/nissan-addresses-leaf-battery-life-replacement-costs/

Sesshoumaru · 01-01-2012 9:19pm

MYOB wrote: »

Once again, fact becomes "opinion" when you disagree with it.

Extra charge points don't make an inherently short-range vehicle any more practical; particularly when the charge points are being placed at the taxpayer (and ESB customer) expense rather than funded by EV owners.

How can you reason and debate with someone who posts no evidence to back up their personal opinion? Do we just spend all day posting our opinions, one after another in quick succession?

That is essentially all we can do when you provide no evidence for me to wrestle with.

The government also spends money on programs I don't agree with, can I get a tax refund on those? Maybe we can all just dictate what we as individuals are willing to allow our tax euros to be spent on by the government?

Sesshoumaru · 01-01-2012 9:22pm

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Thats not really my point though. As I said, the battery only has a certain lifespan, after which it needs to be replaced. This is not covered under warranty and is a cost that needs to be met by the owner.

This is why it makes more sense to lease the battery ala Renault.

Absurdum posted a good link on this, but I'll just add this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Battery

The battery as we refer to it as, is actually 48 modules(batteries), each one can be replaced individually.

Bandara · 01-01-2012 10:04pm

With respect lads, Nissans Vice president can claim all whatever the hell he wants, its doesn't make it true.

Apple claim that the Iphone 4 has 300 hours of standby time, thats almost 13 days without needing to charge.

I have an Iphone 4, I NEVER last a full day without needing to top it up. Tell that to Apple and they'll point out that I am using the phone for ringing people, texting people, surfing the web, listening to music - all things that are not part of their 300 hour claim.

In others words, a paper never refuses ink....

Absurdum · 01-01-2012 10:13pm

and a petrol station owner never refuses customers :P

Bandara · 01-01-2012 10:24pm

Absurdum wrote: »

and a petrol station owner never refuses customers :P

Please, I prefer Fossil Fuel Seller (FFS for short).

;p

L1011 · 01-01-2012 11:28pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

How can you reason and debate with someone who posts no evidence to back up their personal opinion? Do we just spend all day posting our opinions, one after another in quick succession? That is essentially all we can do when you provide no evidence for me to wrestle with.

The government also spends money on programs I don't agree with, can I get a tax refund on those? Maybe we can all just dictate what we as individuals are willing to allow our tax euros to be spent on by the government?

I posted evidence (in relation to fuel mix in the power grid here; and battery safety and development) and got an equivalent of "lalalala I can't hear you" so I don't see why its worth my while. Anything you disagree with becomes "opinion".

unkel · 01-01-2012 11:39pm

Hammertime wrote: »

Apple claim that the Iphone 4 has 300 hours of standby time, thats almost 13 days without needing to charge.

Good analogy indeed. Manufacturers claims should always be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Please use your head and common sense, folks!

Nissan Leaf has an 80kW motor. Top speed is 150km/h and battery capacity is 24kWh

This means that driving at 150km/h (presumably using maximum power as I don't think the speed is limited), the range is an astonishing 24/80 = 18 minutes at 150km/h this is less than 27 miles

Yes. Maximum theoretical range less than 27 miles!

Tesco Maynooth

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