Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Becoming a Real Runner

1404143454667

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭belcarra


    Hey man, best of luck for Sunday and all that!
    Almost 2,000 miles under your belt this year is a fair achievement so another quick 26.2 won't be such a big deal really! :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,418 ✭✭✭Aimman


    Best of luck and enjoy the marathon. And dont forget, there is more to Berlin then a marathon, there's also WeissBier and Bratwurst, but better leave them till have the race ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Aimman wrote: »
    there's also WeissBier and Bratwurst, but better leave them till have the race ;)
    Chrissie Wellington said pretty much the same thing when asked about why she likes Roth so much :)

    Good luck on Sunday :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭digger2d2


    Aimman wrote: »
    Best of luck and enjoy the marathon. And dont forget, there is more to Berlin then a marathon, there's also WeissBier and Bratwurst, but better leave them till have the race ;)

    No Better man to get a nice hot sausage inside him:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭outforarun


    Wow, Berlin time already. Year is flying in. Best of luck Sunday. Just checked out the site, impressive, Cork could learn a thing or two from it.

    Enjoy.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    Good luck at the weekend Niall, don't raise the bar to high now;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,687 ✭✭✭tHE vAGGABOND


    Good luck in Berlin :)

    Hope it all goes well!

    Remember, no puke allowed, and no throwing in the towel after a few miles cos your a few seconds down, dont forget to pack that Man Suit :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    Have to say when I heard you target 3:10 I didnt give you much chance first time out. Though 3:15 would have been realistic. But your training has gone great and I expect a 3:09:xx from you. Go for it....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭pistol_75


    Best of luck for Sunday Meno. Above all enjoy it and take it handy with all the nice beer afterwards :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,533 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Hi Meno, hoping for great things from you on Sunday. I'm not in a position to give advice (but that never stopped me before!), but from a more reliable source:

    Everyone hits a bad patch when racing a marathon. The key is to anticipate it and recognize it, so when it does happen, it is not unexpected. You know then, that it will pass. Book of P&D: 11:35, 2.6-8, verse II.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,492 ✭✭✭Woddle


    Best of luck meno, enjoy it.
    Doing a few 400s at 200m pace tonight with the club if your around :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Woddle wrote: »
    Best of luck meno, enjoy it.
    Doing a few 400s at 200m pace tonight with the club if your around :D

    You are doing 400's at 200m pace? Wow that's fast ;)

    I'll give it a miss, just a few easy miles tonight for me....


  • Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭liamo123


    In case our paths dont cross before Sunday best of luck.... Give it socks !!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭ronnie085


    Good luck Sunday, hope everything falls into place for you, 3:10 will be no problem with the training you've done.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭DigiJem


    Good luck on Sunday meno, enjoy the race and the weekend


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,852 ✭✭✭pgmcpq


    Good luck in Berlin. Bring home that 3.09 and enjoy the beer after !


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭claralara


    Not long now pal... You've had lots of post-race beers this marathon training schedule, but no doubt Sunday's will be the most deserved and enjoyed! Best of luck in the race; you'll nail it! :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    claralara wrote: »
    Not long now pal... You've had lots of post-race beers this marathon training schedule, but no doubt Sunday's will be the most deserved and enjoyed! Best of luck in the race; you'll nail it! :D

    Cheers big ears :P
    Best of luck in Rathfarnham yourself. Reemember the first mile is fast but try to not go too fast (maybe 15-20 seconds better than goal pace). The second mile is tough, it is going to hurt and you will lose a little time but take it from me, once you get through that you WILL speed up again in the third mile. So just concentrate on digging in and getting through mile 2.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    5 miles @ 8'44 av Pace. Pace was more like 9 min/mile average but 5 strides over the last half mile brought it right down. Legs feeling good tonight :).

    Still a bit phlegmy which is restricting breathing a bit so I'll look for a decongestant in the chemist tomorrow before heading off. I went into Base 2 Race to get some body glide after my run. As usual I couldn't resist looking at the shoes, So I am now the owner of a pair of Mizuno Wave Musha 3 :pac: (in fairness they were half price at €45). Nice light shoe, I think they have the lowest heel to toe drop of all the shoes I have. Look forward to testing them out after Berlin.

    Wtd 3 Runs 18.2 miles

    Month|No. of days Runnning|Miles
    January|28/31|256.3
    February|24/28|236.9
    March|23/31|221.9
    April|22/30|150.2
    May|25/31|198.5
    June|24/30|173.2
    July|28/31|269.4
    August|23/31|237.6
    September|18/22|162.3
    Total|210/263|1946.8


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    menoscemo wrote: »
    As usual I couldn't resist looking at the shoes, So I am now the owner of a pair of Mizuno Wave Musha 3 :pac: (in fairness they were half price at €45). Nice light shoe, I think they have the lowest heel to toe drop of all the shoes I have. Look forward to testing them out after Berlin.
    Catching up to RQ there :pac:


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Catching up to RQ there :pac:

    I'd never lower my standards for mizuno shoes. :) Despite the best efforts of a certain boardsie I have thus far managed not to purchase these ones! :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Catching up to RQ there :pac:

    I don't think she has these ones :D
    In Fairness I copied her to the Kinvaras and it was a good move as I will now be wearing them in Berlin. I can't even imagine running fast in the lunarglides anymore.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭Killerz


    All the best on sunday, you'll nail the 3:09, in fact you'll get in a few mins before and have time for a beer just before you cross the line....


  • Registered Users Posts: 570 ✭✭✭slowsteady


    Best of luck Meno. When you hit the last stretch going well, 3:09 less x:00 might be on - go for it!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,724 ✭✭✭kennyb3


    Best of luck Niall i reckon 3.09.xx is well within you given the miles you ve put down.

    Just be prepared to hurt yourself like in a 5k race. The one thing you have is you wont blow up so stick with it even when it gets tough, dont back off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭Seres


    best of luck at the weekend , keep up the postive mental attitude for the race :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭thirstywork2


    I'd never lower my standards for mizuno shoes. :) Despite the best efforts of a certain boardsie I have thus far managed not to purchase these ones! :pac:

    Id never try and twist your arm :p
    Good luck with the race and nice meeting you.Hope to see them Musha's in a race soon Menoscemo ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    2.9 miles this morning with brian from the hotel down to the start finish area and back.

    Lovely morning if a little too hot. Looks like I'll be going with the Boards singlet given the weather. Now to eat, eat and eat.

    Wtd 4 Runs 21.1 miles

    Month|No. of days Runnning|Miles
    January|28/31|256.3
    February|24/28|236.9
    March|23/31|221.9
    April|22/30|150.2
    May|25/31|198.5
    June|24/30|173.2
    July|28/31|269.4
    August|23/31|237.6
    September|19/23|165.2
    Total|211/265|1949.7


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭Macanri


    Hey Niall, give it socks. All the best for it and enjoy the after race beers.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Garmin link here. tougghest race I've run. managed to hold pace until mile 15 then the wheels came off. By 18 I whas stopped and was looking for a metro. Gave myself a good talking to and managed to jog home in 3'26 afterwards but it was one of the tougghest thins I have had to do.

    Full report on Tuesday, wifi flaky here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭digger2d2


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Garmin link here. tougghest race I've run. managed to hold pace until mile 15 then the wheels came off. By 18 I whas stopped and was looking for a metro. Gave myself a good talking to and managed to jog home in 3'26 afterwards but it was one of the tougghest thins I have had to do.

    Full report on Tuesday, wifi flaky here.

    Look forward to your report mate, well done for battling through!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,687 ✭✭✭tHE vAGGABOND


    Looking forward to the report - but I hope you kids have a great night over there, a brilliant city to make a complete mess of yourselves :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,054 ✭✭✭theboyblunder


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Garmin link here. tougghest race I've run. managed to hold pace until mile 15 then the wheels came off. By 18 I whas stopped and was looking for a metro. Gave myself a good talking to and managed to jog home in 3'26 afterwards but it was one of the tougghest thins I have had to do.

    Full report on Tuesday, wifi flaky here.

    Hard luck meno. Tough day - looked pretty hot on the telly by the end. better luck next time - enjoy the oscar wilde :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭ronnie085


    Hard luck today, fair play for sticking with it, horrible feeling when the wheels fall off, although not many people can say the ran with and beat the great geb:pac:

    Enjoy the pints


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭Oisin11178


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Garmin link here. tougghest race I've run. managed to hold pace until mile 15 then the wheels came off. By 18 I whas stopped and was looking for a metro. Gave myself a good talking to and managed to jog home in 3'26 afterwards but it was one of the tougghest thins I have had to do.

    Full report on Tuesday, wifi flaky here.
    Its happened to me a few time in the early days. Makes you stronger in the long run.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭RubyK


    Sorry to read you didn't have the race you hoped for. But, you don't sound like they type of person to be beaten by a bad experience. Onwards and upwards :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭misty floyd


    Oisin11178 wrote: »
    Makes you stronger in the long run.

    This! Exactly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    digger2d2 wrote: »
    Look forward to your report mate, well done for battling through!

    +1 on this!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    Having experiend the same **Kaboom** in London this year you will come out of that experience a better runner. Even for completing it when the body wants to stop is gutsy enough.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭Seres


    Aw Meno , really sorry the race didnt go to plan ! , look for the positives in the experience , you'll prob learn more from this marathon than any others you have ran to date .


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,656 ✭✭✭village runner


    Sorry to hear that lad. I knew at 37k it wasnt to be your day.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭eliwallach


    Hard luck N.
    It was a hot one.

    PS nice tip on the straw.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Berlin Marathon Race Report

    My PB before the race was 3’24 from Barcelona in march the week after a 50k race and I had found 3’24 quite comfortable. I had ‘done’ 6 or 7 marathons since then, but they were either pacing gigs, Ultras or Training runs so I never really aggressively chased a time and never suffered (I had never hit any kind of wall in a marathon since my first effort back in 2009). When I entered Berlin back in February I decided it would be my one ‘fast’ marathon of the year. When choosing a goal time in June, I decided to be bold and go for 3’10 rather than 3’15, simply because sub 3’10 would mean qualifying for London and 3’15 offers no reward other than a solid PB. I knew this would be a big ask as none of my short race time even suggested 3’10 was on according to Mcmillan, but feck it I thought. I’m prepared to blow up chasing a fast time, it’s about time I suffered in a Marathon again :D

    Fast forward a few months and after an up and down training programme upset by a few bouts of sickness and a few races offering no PB improvements (HM in Midlands and 10k in Blessington) I am pig headedly sticking to my 3’10 goal, despite the signs being against me. I was buoyed by my training marathon in Longford when I race 10 miles at PMP and finished only a few minutes outside PB despite running the other 16.2 easy. Still I know that holding 7’10 pace for 26.2 would be a whole other ball game. I head to Berlin feeling a bit like a kamikaze pilot.

    Pre-race
    Everything went well, Landed on Friday and had a good nights sleep. Spent Saturday lounging around the city with Brian, watching football and eating loads. I got a good few hours sleep on Saturday night and was up at 6’30 for my breakfast. My only health worry was the remnants of a cold, a little phlegm at the back of my throat but I took a decongestant tablet and headed down to the start line with Brian not feeling too nervous. Got into the pen about 20 minutes before the off, armed with a pouch containing 9 gels and electrolytes. The plan was to take a gel at the start line and one at every water station until I couldn’t stomach them any more. I knew I was going to be burning Glycogen only at goal pace so the idea was to get as much sugar into me as soon as possible to save the stuff for later. I knew by experience that I wouldn’t be able to stomach the gels late in the race…

    Race
    0-12km

    I started in Pen D, but the road was divided in two. I noticed the left hand side was less crowded so I joined there and was over the line in exactly a minute. The first mile was still a little crowded and I clocked a slowish 7’28 but knew not to panic. Miles 2 and 3 were 7’07 and 7’06 and as I went through 5k I was bang on target pace. I took my first gel here and drank a cup of water through my straw. The stomach didn’t really like it and I could still feel my breakfast there too. Running wise I got into a bit of rhythm though knocking out 7’09, 7’02 and a 7’13. You would think I’d now have banked a good few seconds (goal pace should be 7’15) but by 10k I am only 1 second up :o. I am fighting a constant battle with my garmin and pace band and I constantly have to up the pace to match the band. I know the pace is unsustainable but I push on regardless. I take my second gel at 10k and nearly puke. The stomach is rumbling something fierce and I have to concentrate to keep it down. I decide I am going to hold off on the gels for a while till I feel a bit better, I concentrate on just getting water for a while (but even that feels tough to stomach). At just past 10k I spot an Irish vest just in front of me pacing the same pace. From his top I see he is Declan. I speed up momentarily to have a chat, but manage one sentence before dropping back. Even talking is making me feel ill. A minute from 10 yards back later I see Declan turn round to talk to the guy on his shoulder, thinking it’s me, but it’s some German guy who does not understand him. It almost makes me chuckle but I am only able to concentrate in my own little world. I am trying to block out the realisation that 20 more miles at this pace is going to kill me. Keep going a few miles and you’ll surely start to feel better I tell myself. Miles 7 and 8 are 7’12 and 7’17. I should be still on course but I am drifting a few seconds behind time. I decide to stop looking at my pace band religiously and just run comfortable hard….

    Pain Cave (miles 8-18)

    This is a phrase I borrowed from Jackyback after reading his IM account and pretty much sums up the next 10 miles. There are thousands of people around me, runners and spectators and all I can see is the blue line in front of me and my own feet. I am in my own world and suffering. I feel like I am holding pace, I am certainly holding effort but I know that 3’10 is slipping. Miles 9-13 are 7’02, 7’14, 7’16, 7’25, 7’25. I actually can’t believe mile 9 was that fast reading it now. I don’t think I looked at my watch until halfway and it was just a brief glance then. I figured I was 30 seconds down on 3’10, but told myself maybe I could still get it back. Who was I kidding? Mile 14 was 7’14 and I remember looking at my watch to see the mile bleep. Briefly I told myself I was back. I almost felt comfortable for the first time in an hour, I even risked another gel at this point. I knew I would need it if I was going to make it. But no, the stomach fell apart again and I was finding it hard to fight now. The puking was on the way. Slow down or you’ll be sick. I decide to push as hard as possible while avoiding littering the streets. Miles 15-17 are 7’30, 7’46, 7’55. As you see the wheels are well and truly off now. I’m expecting the 3’15 group to go flying by me any minute. Dig deep I say and maybe I can keep them off. At this point I look at the Garmin briefly and see 8’xx. This is where I lose the head. My body is in pain and I am going backwards. My whole race is out the window. I look up and see the 27k marker, it seems like I have been going for hours since half way and It’s less than 6k, over 15 to go. I have no secondary goal to fall back on and I am on the road to nowhere fast. I wanted to see what blowing up was like and I am learning that it’s not much fun. At 17.5 miles I step off the road, and stop the watch. My only thought is where the nearest metro station is….

    Give up the ghost
    I am stopped for 20 seconds but it seems like a lifetime, loads of thoughts are going through my head- how will I justify a DNF on my log? I won’t deserve the night out, Will I get into the finishers area to meet Brian who’ll be waiting for me? Finally I though of Village runner who was at 37k waiting for me with a bottle of powerade. I start the watch again and start walking, I’ll decide what to do as I go. A spectator then starts shouting at me telling me to run!! I get on the road and start a very slow jog. Next thing I know the pace is comfortable and all of a sudden I’m not struggling anymore. At that point I decide to finish out the race but stop struggling for time, there’s no point. I’ll take what I get. The 3’15 train goes shooting past and I am not on it. In fact 3’20 is even out the window. The miles start ticking off and I almost start to enjoy it, for the first time in the race I can soak up the atmosphere. I’d say I was well dehydrated at this point but the water stations come thick and fast. I stop at most and drink a few cups. The miles go by and I start feeling better. They are not even as slow as they seem. 9’10 (with the stop), 8’37, 8’31, 8’56, 8’42. I meet village runner who has patiently waited for me and hands me my powerade. I feel bad because I don’t even need it or want it now. I take it off him anyway and say thanks. I take two sips and when I’m out of sight I throw it away!! I know I am nearly home now and can even speed up a bit. 8’39, 8’35, 8’21. I’ll definitely finish now. For the first time in 2 hours I am actually passing people :D 8’17 for mile 26 and 7’46 pace for the last .45.

    I have never been so glad to see a finish line!!

    Brian is waiting for me at the line with a similar story to my own, we make our way slowly through the finish and after a massage head back to the hotel and then its on to the Oscar Wilde for a bite of food and the first of many pints. Great to hear the heroic tales from The Road Runner and Liamo and as the night goes on the place fills with boardsies and everyone has great craic. Off the top of my head we meet, Jbski, NeilC, marathastew and partners as well as Opus and a few more. Things get drunker and stories are exchanged. The place is full of Irish Runners many of whom are running Dublin and I win a few brownie points of many when I tell them I’m pacing 4 hours there. The next day on the plane, I’ recognised by about 10 who tell me they’ll be following me in DCM, but my memories of them are flaky at best :o.


    The aftermath

    What went wrong? I could blame the heat, being sick, the stomach, the training programme, but at the end of the day the answer is simple. I was going too fast for my abilities and paid for it. I have learned there is a fine line in marathon between feeling good and blowing up and I crossed it. I think If I had went with a slightly more conservative goal, like 3’15 I probably would have made it and set a nice PB, but the truth is I am not in any way annoyed or disappointed. I have no regrets. I am glad I had the balls to set a tough goal and go for it 100%. I have learned a lot from the race and there’ll be other marathons soon and I am sure the next time I will pick a more achievable goal and set it. London Qualifying will have to wait another year. I have a feeling I will give it a lash in the same race next year.


    Weekly total 5 Runs 47.3 miles

    Month|No. of days Runnning|Miles
    January|28/31|256.3
    February|24/28|236.9
    March|23/31|221.9
    April|22/30|150.2
    May|25/31|198.5
    June|24/30|173.2
    July|28/31|269.4
    August|23/31|237.6
    September|20/25|191.4
    Total|212/267|1976


  • Registered Users Posts: 570 ✭✭✭slowsteady


    Good, insightful report. Pity the ending was not the happy one you wanted but as you said you learned from it and you will be (older and;)) wiser next year.

    With my issues the past few months I have been debating whether to hold to the plan for DCM and possibly crash and burn or to cut back the aspirations and just enjoy it. Whatever I decide to do, I now know what the first option might feel like:p. Thanks for that.

    Aim for the stars and one day you might get there - you tried:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭mithril


    I don't agree with your conclusion. Your repeats were as fast as I was managing when targeting sub 3 and the back to back marathon runs indicates stamina was not a problem. There was something wrong in the mix on the day, either training program, adjusting to the heat or you went into the race not at 100% due to a cold. You are the best person to identify what it is. I would not wait until the Spring. Give Dublin a good lash and you will probably PB, or worst case identify what you need to focus on to break 3:10


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,492 ✭✭✭Woddle


    Well done meno, you gave it 110%. I don't think anyone who follows your log doubts you can go 3:10 but maybe you're a sprinter afterall :D

    I think mithrill could be on to sth aswell as I would have had my house on you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭digger2d2


    Woddle wrote: »
    Well done meno, you gave it 110%. I don't think anyone who follows your log doubts you can go 3:10 but maybe you're a sprinter afterall :D

    I think mithrill could be on to sth aswell as I would have had my house on you.

    The last time I saw Meno sprinting in UCD, some Dude asked him if he was a 'Master':)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    menoscemo wrote: »
    I am pig headed

    :D

    Sorry the race didn't work out but you didn't opt out as others might have, well done!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    mithril wrote: »
    I don't agree with your conclusion. Your repeats were as fast as I was managing when targeting sub 3 and the back to back marathon runs indicates stamina was not a problem. There was something wrong in the mix on the day, either training program, adjusting to the heat or you went into the race not at 100% due to a cold. You are the best person to identify what it is. I would not wait until the Spring. Give Dublin a good lash and you will probably PB, or worst case identify what you need to focus on to break 3:10

    I'd love to be racing dublin but I am committed to pacing it (4hrs). Might not get another marathon until the spring.

    If I'm being honest, the HR for PMP miles was always to high to sustain for a marathon (160+ when my normal Mara HR is low to mid 150's), hence my need to take so many gels....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    You could do 10 marathon pace miles in Longford, in the middle of a marathon, and you couldn't manage it over the first ten miles of Berlin. I agree with Mithril, you should have been capable of that 3.09 (or at least got much closer to the end before blowing up :) ) so it's worth trying to figure out what went wrong. How did your other PMP runs go? What did you eat on the morning/day before? Was it nerves? Have you taken gels at the start like that before?


  • Advertisement
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement