Swiftway BRT: Issues highlighted in public consultation

AlekSmart · 26-11-2014 8:33pm

Kumsheen wrote: »

I'd bet money they will be allowed to use them, and they will stop in them too as they currently do.

The decision on Taxi access has yet to be made,however one piece of thinking doing the (internal) rounds is focusing on a form of annual BRT Lane Taxi Permit which Taxi Drivers could purchase,allowing them to utilize the BRT lane,stopping only at a limited number of specific Taxi-Stops. (I forsee another coloured sticker/roof sign to cover this)

loyatemu · 27-11-2014 10:06am

AlekSmart wrote: »

The decision on Taxi access has yet to be made,however one piece of thinking doing the (internal) rounds is focusing on a form of annual BRT Lane Taxi Permit which Taxi Drivers could purchase,allowing them to utilize the BRT lane,stopping only at a limited number of specific Taxi-Stops. (I forsee another coloured sticker/roof sign to cover this)

that's a dumb idea, either let them use the lanes, or don't. How much of a contribution to reducing congestion do taxis actually make, for every cab with passengers in it, there's probably 2 driving around empty or blocking a traffic lane while the driver picks up/drops off/tries to squeeze onto the end of a rank.

cgcsb · 27-11-2014 10:06am

AlekSmart wrote: »

The decision on Taxi access has yet to be made,however one piece of thinking doing the (internal) rounds is focusing on a form of annual BRT Lane Taxi Permit which Taxi Drivers could purchase,allowing them to utilize the BRT lane,stopping only at a limited number of specific Taxi-Stops. (I forsee another coloured sticker/roof sign to cover this)

That'd require a level of enforcement that just isn't possible, least of all in Ireland. I'd like to see the camera idea on the dash of buses being implemented, take a snap of the license plate and bang, whopping fine. Same at junctions where drivers simply can't help themselves driving into a yellow box and stopping.

pclive · 27-11-2014 10:19am

The idea of a permit is not enforceable considering the current lack of enforcement

cgsb have you made a submission regarding enforcement?

cgcsb · 27-11-2014 3:09pm

pclive wrote: »

The idea of a permit is not enforceable considering the current lack of enforcement

cgsb have you made a submission regarding enforcement?

I made 2 submissions, one recommending centre of the road running (standard for BRT and light rail the world over) for the BRT to avoid conflict with left turning movements. That submission has evidently gone flat on it's ass.

My second submission proposed a small barrier, consisting of some sort of paving stone, no greater than 5cm in breadth and 3cm in height separating the BRT lane from general traffic. This coupled with 0 tolerance enforcement, and license plate capturing cameras would ensure segregation.

Carawaystick · 27-11-2014 4:22pm

How would homes on the route get served by taxis if taxis could not stop in the bus lane? stop in the car lane and let people out in the middle of the road?

cgcsb · 27-11-2014 8:01pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

How would homes on the route get served by taxis if taxis could not stop in the bus lane? stop in the car lane and let people out in the middle of the road?

the same way that you get a taxi when your home is on a pedestrian street, you walk to the nearest location where it's possible to do so. No big deal.

The real question is how are 90+ people on a bus supposed to get tto work when there's rows of taxis parked on front of them.

Carawaystick · 28-11-2014 11:04am

cgcsb wrote: »

the same way that you get a taxi when your home is on a pedestrian street, you walk to the nearest location where it's possible to do so. No big deal.

You probably never had the big deal of not being able to walk, so I suppose it is grand for you.

AlekSmart · 28-11-2014 11:46am

Carawaystick wrote: »

How would homes on the route get served by taxis if taxis could not stop in the bus lane? stop in the car lane and let people out in the middle of the road?

As I understand it,the issue at hand is Taxi access TO THE BRT SPECIFIC lane/s.

Thus,in the case you mention,the taxi would continue to utilize those stretches of carriageway NOT specifically allocated to BRT.

All quite incredible to our ears at present,however the arrival of Luas BXD,Swiftway and the asssociated changes to physical infrastructure ensures that change WILL be necessary..it will suit some (Majority) and will discommode some (Minority).

Progress in Ireland has generally been a slow proicess,the NTA appear to have decided to ramp up the process by a factor and a half ?

loyatemu · 28-11-2014 11:49am

Carawaystick wrote: »

You probably never had the big deal of not being able to walk, so I suppose it is grand for you.

most of the major routes into the city are already clearways at rush hour - taxis can't stop on those either, yet the world keeps spinning.

cgcsb · 28-11-2014 1:51pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

You probably never had the big deal of not being able to walk, so I suppose it is grand for you.

If I couldn't walk I'd have a disabled friendly residence

Carawaystick · 28-11-2014 4:08pm

cgcsb wrote: »

If I couldn't walk I'd have a disabled friendly residence

Because everyone unable to walk can just up sticks and move house....
Especially if the handicap is temporary.

Alek, you'll be heartened to hear the nta accept cyclists will be using the non-brt specific bus lanes. The consultant I talked to at an open evening stated this. Given the alternative might be 5 pelican crossings to move 50m along the route...

Aard · 28-11-2014 7:06pm

I hope everybody made a submission before 5pm -- there's no complaining if you didn't!

Retailer · 29-11-2014 4:51pm

Admittedly so far I've only read the promotional material that has been sent out about switway.

To me it seems like the same thing as we have currently but with a fancy new name.

Take the route from swords for example. What are the benefits that the current bus lanes don't provide on that route?

The bottleneck that is the crossroads at Collins avenue will still be there right on up to Dorset street.

cgcsb · 29-11-2014 5:28pm

To be fair the brt route will bypass santry village which can cause delays. But still nothing that cant be done without buying a new fleet of bendy buses

AlekSmart · 30-11-2014 1:52am

cgcsb wrote: »

To be fair the brt route will bypass santry village which can cause delays. But still nothing that cant be done without buying a new fleet of bendy buses

TBH,the hardware aspect of Swiftway is causing me most problems.

I'm of the belief that large capacity long-wheelbase or tri-axle Double Deck vehicles are preferable to Articulated Buses for Dublin's particular City-Centre focused routes.

Carawaystick · 01-12-2014 2:45am

Retailer wrote: »

To me it seems like the same thing as we have currently but with a fancy new name.

Take the route from swords for example. What are the benefits that the current bus lanes don't provide on that route?

The bottleneck that is the crossroads at Collins avenue will still be there right on up to Dorset street.

Off bus ticketing.
bus arrives, everyone gets on, bus leaves.

instead of
bus arrives.
lad asks the driver does this bus go to X.
It doesn't
lad steps out of the way.
lass ask how much to Y
driver says Z
lass pays Z, slowly in dribs and drabs
Next customer alights....

If the nta don't sort out the cars blocking busses at Collins Ave west, then it's hardly a huge leap forward. the nta paid engineer at an open night suggested the cops might police this... I laughed at the simpleton....

cgcsb · 01-12-2014 2:36pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Off bus ticketing.
bus arrives, everyone gets on, bus leaves.

instead of
bus arrives.
lad asks the driver does this bus go to X.
It doesn't
lad steps out of the way.
lass ask how much to Y
driver says Z
lass pays Z, slowly in dribs and drabs
Next customer alights....

off-board ticketing and enhanced passenger information is possible without buying a fleet of bendy buses.

Carawaystick wrote: »

If the nta don't sort out the cars blocking busses at Collins Ave west, then it's hardly a huge leap forward. the nta paid engineer at an open night suggested the cops might police this... I laughed at the simpleton....

It's unrealistic for the gardaí to do it, they'd need to have a presence at every busy junction, it's just not possible in terms of man power at a time when there is virtually 0 gardaí police presence in the busy streets of central Dublin.

The problem would sort it's self out with a camera on the front of buses and license plate recognition software. Once a suspect's vehicle is recognised, send them out a whopping fine. Economic incentivisation is a great enforcement tool.

pclive · 01-12-2014 2:41pm

A few years ago when the Gardai actually enforced bus lanes etc very few people drove in them now as the Gardai dont bother its a free for all same with red light running

Retailer · 01-12-2014 4:00pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Off bus ticketing.
bus arrives, everyone gets on, bus leaves.

instead of
bus arrives.
lad asks the driver does this bus go to X.
It doesn't
lad steps out of the way.
lass ask how much to Y
driver says Z
lass pays Z, slowly in dribs and drabs
Next customer alights....

If the nta don't sort out the cars blocking busses at Collins Ave west, then it's hardly a huge leap forward. the nta paid engineer at an open night suggested the cops might police this... I laughed at the simpleton....

i both drive that route and get the bus.

the problem I find when driving towards the city approaching the junction with collins avenue is that cars turning left onto collins avenue towards Whitehall only have a few metres to get from the driving lane into the left turning lane.

as a result the majority of drivers turning left, dont follow the rules and encroach into the bus lane before it ends. I feel that if they didn't do that and stayed in the leftmost driving lane up until the end of the bus lane, there would be even bigger tailbacks way way past the port tunnel entrance. but i suppose rules are rules and strictly speaking they must be followed even though they don't offer the best solution.

even if the bus lane was empty 100% of the time, current buses and the new swiftway buses would still be queuing up at the end of that bus lane behind all the cars turning left, and all the cars trying to merge into the left lane after the bus lane ends.

i realise that all of the above is probably very confusing, particularly for people who don't use that route!!
but my point is that on that particular route, I don't see the benefit of the millions being spent when existing bottlenecks will still be in place.

ive searched but cant find a (rush hour) journey time comparison for an existing 41 compared to a swiftway between swords and the city centre.

antoinolachtnai · 01-12-2014 5:20pm

I asked the NTA about the speed. They made a ridiculous claim, that they could cut the route to 35 minutes.

This is in spite of the fact that the 41 doesn't cross any Luas lines, whilst the swiftway route will have to cross the Luas 6 times on its round-trip.

cgcsb · 01-12-2014 10:47pm

pclive wrote: »

A few years ago when the Gardai actually enforced bus lanes etc very few people drove in them now as the Gardai dont bother its a free for all same with red light running

I don't recall those days. Perhaps they were area specific

cgcsb · 01-12-2014 10:49pm

Retailer wrote: »

i both drive that route and get the bus.

the problem I find when driving towards the city approaching the junction with collins avenue is that cars turning left onto collins avenue towards Whitehall only have a few metres to get from the driving lane into the left turning lane.

as a result the majority of drivers turning left, dont follow the rules and encroach into the bus lane before it ends. I feel that if they didn't do that and stayed in the leftmost driving lane up until the end of the bus lane, there would be even bigger tailbacks way way past the port tunnel entrance. but i suppose rules are rules and strictly speaking they must be followed even though they don't offer the best solution.

even if the bus lane was empty 100% of the time, current buses and the new swiftway buses would still be queuing up at the end of that bus lane behind all the cars turning left, and all the cars trying to merge into the left lane after the bus lane ends.

i realise that all of the above is probably very confusing, particularly for people who don't use that route!!
but my point is that on that particular route, I don't see the benefit of the millions being spent when existing bottlenecks will still be in place.

ive searched but cant find a (rush hour) journey time comparison for an existing 41 compared to a swiftway between swords and the city centre.

The obvious solution is to remove the left turning lane and have separate traffic light signals so that bus forward doesn't conflict with cars left signal.

cgcsb · 01-12-2014 10:59pm

Retailer wrote: »

i both drive that route and get the bus.

the problem I find when driving towards the city approaching the junction with collins avenue is that cars turning left onto collins avenue towards Whitehall only have a few metres to get from the driving lane into the left turning lane.

as a result the majority of drivers turning left, dont follow the rules and encroach into the bus lane before it ends. I feel that if they didn't do that and stayed in the leftmost driving lane up until the end of the bus lane, there would be even bigger tailbacks way way past the port tunnel entrance. but i suppose rules are rules and strictly speaking they must be followed even though they don't offer the best solution.

even if the bus lane was empty 100% of the time, current buses and the new swiftway buses would still be queuing up at the end of that bus lane behind all the cars turning left, and all the cars trying to merge into the left lane after the bus lane ends.

i realise that all of the above is probably very confusing, particularly for people who don't use that route!!
but my point is that on that particular route, I don't see the benefit of the millions being spent when existing bottlenecks will still be in place.

ive searched but cant find a (rush hour) journey time comparison for an existing 41 compared to a swiftway between swords and the city centre.

The obvious solution is to remove the left turning lane and have separate traffic light signals so that bus forward doesn't conflict with cars left signal.

Carawaystick · 02-12-2014 12:10am

cgcsb wrote: »

It's unrealistic for the gardaí to do it, they'd need to have a presence at every busy junction, it's just not possible in terms of man power at a time when there is virtually 0 gardaí police presence in the busy streets of central Dublin.

It's funny to heqr this when the last 2 mornings I cycled past here, there were actual cops from the "traffic corps" in their cars there, looking as cars jammed up the bus lane....

unrealistic when there were literally cops there...

Aard · 02-12-2014 12:19am

It's not right to design garda presence into a transport system so that it works, if it can be avoided.

Kumsheen · 05-12-2014 9:51pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The problem would sort it's self out with a camera on the front of buses and license plate recognition software. Once a suspect's vehicle is recognised, send them out a whopping fine. Economic incentivisation is a great enforcement tool.

Well, look at the problem in the courts with the amount of GoSafe speeding cases being thrown out.

If they really want BRT to work, it needs to be centre running.

Carawaystick · 07-12-2014 1:38am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I asked the NTA about the speed. They made a ridiculous claim, that they could cut the route to 35 minutes.

This is in spite of the fact that the 41 doesn't cross any Luas lines, whilst the swiftway route will have to cross the Luas 6 times on its round-trip.

The 33 can get from Abbey St terminus to Lusk in 32 mins leaving at 8pm.
The Cat&Cage widening is underway, so when that's done
and off bus ticketing, and averaging running time over the whole day, or managing to discount long running times somehow, sure, 35 mins is achievable.

LXFlyer · 07-12-2014 6:28am

The 35 minutes is now quoted as being to O'Connell Bridge and 45 minutes to Earlsfort Terrace.

antoinolachtnai · 07-12-2014 11:36pm

35 minutes to o'connell bridge is an exceptionally fast time. It is 17 kilometres or so, so that is 25 km/hour including stops. The stop at the airport in particular will be pretty slow.

You can't really look at it in terms of off-peak timing. It's the peak timing that really matters.

Swiftway BRT: Issues highlighted in public consultation

Comments