Zero tolerance policing.

13-05-2014 1:42pm

Dan, you want a example of Gardaí doing their jobs? Maybe go into any of our criminal courts or perhaps inquests. Do you have figures on how many files the DPP have directed no prosecution? Or how many from Superintendents?

So far all you have posted are two news reports. You have been asked to provide personal examples of your accusations and have so far failed to do so.

If you are not happy with the responses that you are receiving here then maybe post the thread in After Hours.

And here is another Garda ignoring a crime. This time off duty. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/off-duty-garda-foils-armed-robbers-in-meath-1.1793242

Oh sorry, that should have been facing down armed criminals.

Little CuChulainn · 13-05-2014 1:48pm

foreign wrote: »

Dan, you want a example of Gardaí doing their jobs? Maybe go into any of our criminal courts or perhaps inquests. Do you have figures on how many files the DPP have directed no prosecution? Or how many from Superintendents?

So far all you have posted are two news reports. You have been asked to provide personal examples of your accusations and have so far failed to do so.

If you are not happy with the responses that you are receiving here then maybe post the thread in After Hours.

And here is another Garda ignoring a crime. This time off duty. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/off-duty-garda-foils-armed-robbers-in-meath-1.1793242

Oh sorry, that should have been facing down armed criminals.

You sure you didn't mean this one?

http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-hatchet-robbery-dungarvan-1462443-May2014/

rockonollie · 13-05-2014 1:49pm

Zero tolerance never works......simple fact is that there are always exceptions.

Case and point (though from here in the US, not Ireland)....a local teen was rabbit hunting one evening (using a BB gun, not live ammunition), the following morning, he drives to school and realizes that his BB gun is still in the trunk. Instead of trying to hide it, he goes directly to the principals office, explains what happened and asks if he can call his parents to have them come and collect the gun. The school has a zero tolerance policy for bringing weapons on the grounds and the student is arrested, charged with bringing a firearm to school and expelled.

It won't take much research to find countless incidents where a zero tolerance policy leads to a very unjust outcome.

Old diesel · 13-05-2014 2:08pm

foreign wrote: »

Dan, you want a example of Gardaí doing their jobs? Maybe go into any of our criminal courts or perhaps inquests. Do you have figures on how many files the DPP have directed no prosecution? Or how many from Superintendents?

So far all you have posted are two news reports. You have been asked to provide personal examples of your accusations and have so far failed to do so.

If you are not happy with the responses that you are receiving here then maybe post the thread in After Hours.

And here is another Garda ignoring a crime. This time off duty. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/off-duty-garda-foils-armed-robbers-in-meath-1.1793242

Oh sorry, that should have been facing down armed criminals.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-receives-scott-medal-for-foiling-post-office-raid-509347.html

Heres another example of a garda doing her job

http://www.herald.ie/news/woman-garda-foils-gang-of-teen-raiders-in-taxi-chase-drama-29259455.html

And again - this one could have ignored the taxi - and no one would know :rolleyes:

But she didn't

http://www.eveningecho.ie/2014/04/19/hero-garda-praised-terror-chase/

This is the chase in Cork a few weeks ago

http://www.thejournal.ie/armed-robbers-caught-1091974-Sep2013/

Blanchardstown arrest just as raiders left the filling station they robbed.

Dan_Solo · 13-05-2014 2:54pm

Old diesel wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-receives-scott-medal-for-foiling-post-office-raid-509347.html

Heres another example of a garda doing her job

http://www.herald.ie/news/woman-garda-foils-gang-of-teen-raiders-in-taxi-chase-drama-29259455.html

And again - this one could have ignored the taxi - and no one would know :rolleyes:

But she didn't

http://www.eveningecho.ie/2014/04/19/hero-garda-praised-terror-chase/

This is the chase in Cork a few weeks ago

http://www.thejournal.ie/armed-robbers-caught-1091974-Sep2013/

Blanchardstown arrest just as raiders left the filling station they robbed.

I've already given you much more anecdotal evidence that the Gardai are incredibly poor at responding to reported crime. Wasn't somebody moaning about this not being definitive proof of anything earlier? I'm sure he'll be along any second now to also put you in your place for doing exactly the same thing.

Old diesel · 13-05-2014 3:03pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I've already given you much more anecdotal evidence that the Gardai are incredibly poor at responding to reported crime. Wasn't somebody moaning about this not being definitive proof of anything earlier? I'm sure he'll be along any second now to also put you in your place for doing exactly the same thing.

But your tarnishing the WHOLE force with the one brush - imo.

I just posted some links to show you Gardaí actually dealing with incidents.

The 2nd link is particularly interesting because (if im reading the article correctly) the Garda was OFF DUTY and traveling in her private car when she saw the taxi, was suspicious and followed it up.

Funnily enough - a lot of the day to day awesome things that Gardaí do on a day to day basis - doesn't make the papers.

Btw - I could have chosen LOTS more links like the ones ive already posted - would you like to see more :rolleyes:

Dan_Solo · 13-05-2014 3:09pm

Old diesel wrote: »

But your tarnishing the WHOLE force with the one brush - imo.

And you're bigging them up with a couple of examples of them doing their job IMO.
Same difference.
Do you want to see lots more links to inept, brutal or corrupt Gardai?

Old diesel · 13-05-2014 3:11pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And you're bigging them up with a couple of examples of them doing their job IMO.
Same difference.

So what percentage of them don't do their job then in the manner you describe???.

Dan_Solo · 13-05-2014 3:17pm

Old diesel wrote: »

So what percentage of them don't do their job then in the manner you describe???.

It's impossible to tell because AGS keep that information secret. And they investigate themselves whenever there is an allegation. And whistleblowers are hounded.

Zambia · 13-05-2014 3:18pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You don't have a case. Otherwise you would have to prove it. Pretty basic stuff. Glad you're not on my court team.

You have a court team I'm glad, you need the help.

OMG he didn't. That's like those Telegraph readers who say the Birmingham Six or second Hillsborough enquiry are proof of how good the British justice system is. Justice delayed is justice denied ring a bell? Any evidence that Gardai are "flat out"? You know you have to prove this, right? (PS. you just said so yourself two lines ago!)

No I can suggest it as a possible alternative. You have to disprove it.

Prove it. Remember you were saying earlier something about making a claim and providing evidence? You have thus far provided zero evidence of Garda competence or application to duty.

You have been given several since I left.

Here's another example of "evidence". (did you look that word up yet?)
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rural-gardai-taking-twice-as-many-sick-days-as-city-officers-26630039.html
Good on ye Dublin Gardai. Some of those rural Gardai pull more sickies in one year than I've had in ten.

Good for you.

Dan_Solo · 13-05-2014 3:23pm

Zambia wrote: »

You have a court team I'm glad, you need the help.
No I can suggest it as a possible alternative. You have to disprove it.
You have been given several since I left.
Good for you.

Check carefully... nope, nothing relevant here this time either.
How did I guess you wouldn't whine about anecdotal evidence of Garda competence, when you're all moany about any evidence against? I must be some regular sort of Nostradamus me!

PS: I like the way you've given your own post the thumbs down at the top! How appropriate!

Old diesel · 13-05-2014 3:25pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It's impossible to tell because AGS keep that information secret. And they investigate themselves whenever there is an allegation. And whistleblowers are hounded.

Ah - so maybe the majority of Gardaí do their job well then???

Dan_Solo · 13-05-2014 3:38pm

Old diesel wrote: »

Ah - so maybe the majority of Gardaí do their job well then???

I'm afraid there's no evidence to prove this, as Zambia will no doubt whatsoever :pac: concur.

Old diesel · 13-05-2014 3:44pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I'm afraid there's no evidence to prove this, as Zambia will no doubt whatsoever :pac: concur.

So wheres the evidence that the MAJORITY of gardai are not doing their job well???

rockonollie · 13-05-2014 3:45pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I'm afraid there's no evidence to prove this, as Zambia will no doubt whatsoever :pac: concur.

Burden of proof falls on the accuser....... i.e. you

Dan_Solo · 13-05-2014 3:52pm

rockonollie wrote: »

Burden of proof falls on the accuser....... i.e. you

And the guy who says "the majority of Gardaí do their job well". You will no doubt join me in condemning this statement as there is simply no evidence to back it up?
Unless the Gardai are refusing to release this information as seems to be the norm for statistical information requests?
Here's a quite informative story on how "helpful" the Gardai are regarding information requests....
http://thestory.ie/2014/02/24/an-garda-siochana-transparency-and-access-to-information/

rockonollie · 13-05-2014 3:58pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And the guy who says "the majority of Gardaí do their job well". You will no doubt join me in condemning this statement as there is simply no evidence to back it up?
Unless the Gardai are refusing to release this information as seems to be the norm for statistical information requests?
Here's a quite informative story on how "helpful" the Gardai are regarding information requests....
http://thestory.ie/2014/02/24/an-garda-siochana-transparency-and-access-to-information/

Saying that somebody does their job well isn't an accusation.......if you disagree with this statement, then you are in effect stating that the majority of Gardai don't do their jobs well......this is an accusation, and the burden of proof is on you

Dan_Solo · 13-05-2014 4:06pm

rockonollie wrote: »

Saying that somebody does their job well isn't an accusation.......if you disagree with this statement, then you are in effect stating that the majority of Gardai don't do their jobs well......this is an accusation, and the burden of proof is on you

Nope, sorry, there is no distinction. If you have no evidence that they do their job well that's all it is. Unproven. It doesn't matter whether you call it an accusation, comment, description or anything. No proof either way.

Zambia · 13-05-2014 4:21pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nope, sorry, there is no distinction. If you have no evidence that they do their job well that's all it is. Unproven. It doesn't matter whether you call it an accusation, comment, description or anything. No proof either way.

Could you do their job?

Dan_Solo · 13-05-2014 4:25pm

Zambia wrote: »

Could you do their job?

And how would I "prove" that? Don't see why not. You need a basic pass LC and a physical to get in, right?
Or, of course, you don't need the LC at all at the recruiting board's "discretion".

Little CuChulainn · 13-05-2014 4:28pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And how would I "prove" that? Don't see why not. You need a basic pass LC and a physical to get in, right?
Or, of course, you don't need the LC at all at the recruiting board's "discretion".

You need LC to be able to do the aptitude test. You also must do a report writing exam, pass an interview, pass a physical, pass a fitness test and pass the college course.

I'm not exactly sure what your goal here is. Everything you've come up with has been refuted with evidence yet still you go on.

Dan_Solo · 13-05-2014 4:31pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I'm not exactly sure what your goal here is. Everything you've come up with has been refuted with evidence yet still you go on.

Hello? Could you run this "refuting evidence" by me one more time? I'd like to see it again. Remember, a few anecdotes are not evidence of general Garda effectiveness or application.

Old diesel · 13-05-2014 4:34pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And how would I "prove" that? Don't see why not. You need a basic pass LC and a physical to get in, right?
Or, of course, you don't need the LC at all at the recruiting board's "discretion".

You prove it by applying - been successful, becoming a Garda - going out on the streets - and doing the job well.

Can't think of any other way really :rolleyes:

Little CuChulainn · 13-05-2014 4:40pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Hello? Could you run this "refuting evidence" by me one more time? I'd like to see it again. Remember, a few anecdotes are not evidence of general Garda effectiveness or application.

It's a lot more than you have produced to support your claims though.

Dan_Solo · 13-05-2014 4:42pm

Old diesel wrote: »

You prove it by applying - been successful, becoming a Garda - going out on the streets - and doing the job well.

Can't think of any other way really :rolleyes:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: that just proves they passed an exam - nothing at all about whether the job is done well :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Everybody's passed the exam at some stage, but I suppose you'll insist we are all great Irish speakers?

Dan_Solo · 13-05-2014 4:44pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's a lot more than you have produced to support your claims though.

Go on then, I asked you to repeat your evidence that the average Gardai is competent, dedicated and diligent. For some reason you don't appear to be able to do so... almost as if the evidence never existed in the first place! Amazing coincidence!

Here, this is what evidence of Gardai not being good at their job would look like:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-massaging-crime-statistics-for-years-new-cso-report-shows-26441540.html
Now all you have to do is find evidence that says the opposite.

Little CuChulainn · 13-05-2014 4:54pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Go on then, I asked you to repeat your evidence that the average Gardai is competent, dedicated and diligent. For some reason you don't appear to be able to do so... almost as if the evidence never existed in the first place! Amazing coincidence!

What kind of evidence do you want? Perhaps you'd be interested to know that road deaths in Ireland have gone from one of the worst in Europe to one of the best.

EDIT: In response to your ninja edit. The Gardaí have already highlighted this. What it is is an example of what happens when politics gets involved in policing.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/crime-stats-lower-due-to-massaging-of-figures-says-gra-president-592896.html

Old diesel · 13-05-2014 4:56pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: that just proves they passed an exam - nothing at all about whether the job is done well :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Everybody's passed the exam at some stage, but I suppose you'll insist we are all great Irish speakers?

Yawn

Dan_Solo · 13-05-2014 5:00pm

Old diesel wrote: »

Yawn

Yawn? I can see how being repeatedly proven to be completely incorrect might be getting boring for you at this stage alright!

Old diesel · 13-05-2014 5:06pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yawn? I can see how being repeatedly proven to be completely incorrect might be getting boring for you at this stage alright!

The reason I went "yawn" was because your post seems to suggest you have VERY little knowledge on what a Gardas job might actually entail.

Tell me how ive been proven wrong???? :rolleyes:

Zero tolerance policing.

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