Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

WRC Caused Cancelation of DU, MN and Navan Rail Line

Options
2»

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    It doesn't (add resilency to the network to connect Dunboyne and Navan)
    Why not? Even if you don't take the resilency angle having Navan-Clonsilla open would force IE to justify Navan-Slane-Drogheda's existence since the Tara could go to North Wall via Clonsilla as easy as it could the Northern Line.


  • Options
    #33
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    How is it that people commute from Dundalk, Drogheda, Longford, Athlone, Mullingar, Arklow, Gorey etc to Dublin to work but Youghal is too far from Cork.

    Thank you, you have just made my point for me.

    Long distance commuting is not an ideal to be cherished and replicated, it is an inevitable consequence of bad planning. For all of it's failings, at least the LUTS/CASP model has tried to avoid it, and to keep the city region coherent and sustainable. Are you seriously suggesting that Cork should try and expand it's commuter belt as far as possible? Why?
    south of Midleton is Whitegate
    And Cloyne, Ballycotton, Aghada, Saleen, Ballinacurra ... between Cloyne, Ballycotton and Corkbeg EDs in 2006 there was more than 6,000 people (6,144). On a more general note, if you take the total population of the EDs (Urban and Rural) in 2006, Midleton ED has a pop. of 30,577, and Youghal ED has a pop. of 10,603.


  • Options
    #34
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    The arguments put forward by CIE have been addressed many times over. When it came to Limerick to Galway, the facts are, it was rebuilt on a very poor alignment. CIE mentioned using tilting trains in a previous post, which cost 30% more to buy than normal rolling stock suited for the trip distance based on cost, power/weight ratio, fuel consumption and a host of other factors.

    Next - showing pictures of the Edwardian/Victorian age is romantic, but inappropriate in the context of the 21st century. I have not been to Youghal since 1994, so I am unable to judge. I do know that Midleton commuter is a success, but adding on the additional 30 kilometers to Youghal would be a repeat of the Greystones fiasco for DART, where it upset the service pattern. On a sidenote - Youghal was where I had my first proper Pint of Guinness after my Leaving Cert.

    As for the CSP/LUTS, it appears to be the first time that a plan was implemented and the city rewarded properly for being proactive. Its a shame it took 30 years to do so, but better late than never.

    As for WRC replacing Rosslare to Waterford, that was inevitable once the Beet traffic went in 2006. As long as the Sugar Beet was around, then it was feasible to provide a service. Once it went, the revenue recovery ratio (RRR) vs cost dropped to 2%. Judging by similar reports on comparable regional lines run by Renfe (Spain), CFR (Romania), DR (East Germany), CP (Portugal) the basis of survival was given as 1,000 passengers per annum per kilometer, OR/AND RRR of 25%. Neither of these are achievable with the investment required on Rosslare to Waterford. They are possible with some ambition on the Waterford to Galway axis in the medium to long term. Population levels are greater than they were at the time of the original closure and cutback in April 1976.

    Aidan1 "Long distance commuting is not an ideal to be cherished and replicated, it is an inevitable consequence of bad planning"

    Yes, very true. But Irish people refuse to build up, and choose to build out. That was expected to change, but it has yet to happen, and probably never will. Its there now, however undesirable it is.

    DWCommuter

    It appears that FG have returned to form and will act out their mid 80s approach to the rail network.

    If I remember the network of the mid 1980's, it was shambolic. The track was ancient. The rolling stock was aging rapidly. Frankly speaking, the network of 2010 is a world away from that of Jim Mitchells 1984 "Building on reality". I HOPE Fine Gael are rather more enlightened and realise that if they wish to get people out of cars, they need to provide viable alternatives, rather than paying lip service to it. However, being "mean" to the railway has some nice side effects. The management start working as if a fire has been lit under their bottoms. Speeds improve "miraculously". The Cost/Revenue ratio ALSO improves. I see no harm whatsoever on trimming some fat within Iarnrod Eireann.

    As regards Navan, its probably the most viable reopening there is. A compromise however is to make it Single track with crossing loops beyond Dunboyne, which should be sufficient initially. Double track it later on. Also, do the majority of people in Navan actually care, or is it a secondary issue. Along the towns of Swinford, Tubbercurry out West, its a secondary issue also, with Health, Employment, Education and other issues getting far higher priority.

    dowlingm

    I don't know what on earth "resiliency" means. It sounds too much like Sir Humphrey Appleby has invaded before Phil and Betty visit next month. I will hazard a guess and ask for clarification.

    - Does "resiliency" mean that in connecting another town of 25,000 people including its hinterland, it ensures more passengers and benefits the network as a whole, and consequently justifies the existence and survival of the system in its present condition? Does this resiliency also justify further expansion?"

    Finally - in comparing the attitude of Fine Gael in 1984 with Jim Mitchell as Minister for Transport, it has to be stated that CIE's costs were running out of control. Social and Financial objectives have to be balanced in a sensible manner. The people at the CIE "love in" scream bloody blue murder when that fundamental fact is stated. Jim Mitchell did regard DART as a white elephant initially. He stated that it was the CIE rail division that gave him the greatest cause of concern when he took office in 1984 as Minister for Transport. He then partially implemented McKinsey II (1981 report) by splitting into 3 subsidiaries. The result - growth for the rail network, and there is no denying that fact since, even with haphazard management. DART is now a proven success. So is LUAS. So is Midleton commuter. There is no use retaining 19th century heritage routes such as Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy when the potential to improve or save them with relatively small amounts of cash does NOT exist. The money and rolling stock is better off improving potentially better routes, including Waterford-Limerick Jctn, and rebuilding Navan-Clonsilla. Or

    Dare I mention the line through the Phoenix Park Tunnel, and eventually DART Underground?


  • Options
    #35
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    If you knew anything about the line you would know that I was not suggesting that people would go to Youghal instead of Spain for the annual holidays - no more than the people of Dublin choose to go to Bray or Howth for their holidays rather than Spain. Funny thing is though that the DART carries thousands of people to both seaside destinations every summer - I guess they must be lost on their way to the airport.

    Brilliant photo JD !!! :) - the odd thing about it is that people also fly out to destinations such as the I.O.M., Blackpool etc etc., in essence, places similar to Youghal. Youghal, and other seaside destinations like it, could be a lot more viable than they are at present, the closure of its railway service in the 70's certainly wouldn't have done anything to boost tourism and most likely the closure was indeed a factor in the fall-off . Youghal is steeped in medieval history, a walled town, one of the country's first seaports (and still an active port), an early university, and alms houses on the main street, all centuries old. Oodles going for it historically, not forgetting Walter Raleigh. Reading that Irish Times article is quite sad. :o


  • Options
    #36
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Why not? Even if you don't take the resilency angle having Navan-Clonsilla open would force IE to justify Navan-Slane-Drogheda's existence since the Tara could go to North Wall via Clonsilla as easy as it could the Northern Line.

    Justify Navan - Drogheda? No they wouldn't. They'd just close it down.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    Long distance commuting is not an ideal to be cherished and replicated, it is an inevitable consequence of bad planning. For all of it's failings, at least the LUTS/CASP model has tried to avoid it, and to keep the city region coherent and sustainable. Are you seriously suggesting that Cork should try and expand it's commuter belt as far as possible? Why?
    +1

    My guess would be that it's easier to suggest propping up Youghal as a commuter town for Cork, rather than address the real problems the town faces:
    - one-off housing reducing the density of the town, and by extention its critical mass;
    - big-box stores on the outskirts rotting the core.

    Turning it into a dormitory town is clearly the answer... :rolleyes: Instead of having the people spend their day in Youghal, they'd rather have them spend their day in Cork. That's one sure-fire way to drain more life out of the town. Granted, the train operates both ways, but who in the City is gonna take it out to Youghal when they can easily drive?

    Youghal needs to address its bad planning policies before addressing the more trivial matter of the railway. Otherwise it's a case of cart before the horse.


  • Options
    #38
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    From Dermo;
    As regards Navan, its probably the most viable reopening there is. A compromise however is to make it Single track with crossing loops beyond Dunboyne, which should be sufficient initially. Double track it later on. Also, do the majority of people in Navan actually care, or is it a secondary issue. Along the towns of Swinford, Tubbercurry out West, its a secondary issue also, with Health, Employment, Education and other issues getting far higher priority.

    Very few in Navan cared about the rail link. They moaned about the traffic problems on the N3. They loosely supported the idea of a railway, but realistically a lot worked in parts of Dublin that the railway wouldn't serve even via a connection. Two things happened to change everything. Recession brought a reduction in commuters and the M3 opened. Had the boom continued more houses would have been built in Navan and its environs and this may have kept the railway idea alive despite a continuation of bad planning. Now that the boom is over and we have all been reality checked, never again should we encourage towns like Navan to be commuter towns for Dublin. They have the M3 now and pay a toll as well as a contribution from their taxes to cover any shortfall by the toll operators. Foisting another financial drain on them via a railway that will never cover its costs unless we perhaps build even more houses out there is just not on.

    I was a supporter of the Navan rail line for a long time. Apart from the very obvious negligence towards its alignment from Government and MCC, it quickly became apparent that the figures didn't stand up anyway and that it was being used as a safety net for Noel Dempsey and nothing else. The line to Navan is nothing more than a blatant example of how we anticipated throwing 100s and 100s of millions at a project to a town with a swelling of housing developments that in themselves were built because landbanks in Dublin were being sat on to increase their value. (thankfully a lot of this is now in NAMA)

    It was all bonkers. Let it go to the wayside and if things ever pick up again, don't build another goddamn housing estate in Navan. It doesn't need one.


  • Options
    #39
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Justify Navan - Drogheda? No they wouldn't. They'd just close it down.
    Yes - except then you'd be closing a railway with only one use and replacing it with one that had two. The manner in which the Navan line connects at Drogheda essentially rules out a passenger service there without major works there as well as upgrades to the trackage to Navan. At the very least the line should go as far as Dunshaughlin.

    dermo88: Resilience is the ability to provide and maintain an acceptable level of service in the face of faults and challenges to normal operation.


  • Options
    #40
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Yes - except then you'd be closing a railway with only one use and replacing it with one that had two. The manner in which the Navan line connects at Drogheda essentially rules out a passenger service there without major works there as well as upgrades to the trackage to Navan. At the very least the line should go as far as Dunshaughlin.

    dermo88: Resilience is the ability to provide and maintain an acceptable level of service in the face of faults and challenges to normal operation.

    See my post above. It won't be built and doesn't need to be built. And Tara Mines traffic is hardly reliable in the long term. Nor do I favor resilience as being a factor in its reopening. Accidents happen. Trains get stuck and I think this resilience argument has merits but is weak.


  • Options
    #41
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    This wibbling pulled off Giger Ale Productions is not only 100% completely serious but is an insight into the psychological landscape of the typical WRC supporter and how these people hogged the entire rail transport debate in this country which resulted in the mess we are in now.

    http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/2210/Varadkar-to-review-road-and-rail-projects
    Whilst I appreciate that it is vital that existing infrastructure is maintained in a safe condition (both road and rail), I do hope that consideration is given to the fact that rail projects such as phase 2 of the WRC to Tuam will reduce the dependency on the road network in the West and will build on the success of the already re-opened section of the WRC.

    Anyone else want to dispute my statements on this thread.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Aard wrote: »
    +1

    My guess would be that it's easier to suggest propping up Youghal as a commuter town for Cork, rather than address the real problems the town faces:
    - one-off housing reducing the density of the town, and by extention its critical mass;
    - big-box stores on the outskirts rotting the core.

    Turning it into a dormitory town is clearly the answer... :rolleyes: Instead of having the people spend their day in Youghal, they'd rather have them spend their day in Cork. That's one sure-fire way to drain more life out of the town. Granted, the train operates both ways, but who in the City is gonna take it out to Youghal when they can easily drive?

    Youghal needs to address its bad planning policies before addressing the more trivial matter of the railway. Otherwise it's a case of cart before the horse.

    I never suggested that turning Youghal into a dormitory town would be the saving of it, part of it - yes. Do you think that it's not already a commuter town despite having no rail link? By making it a more attractive commute it would encourage people to want to live there, and just because the breadwinners in a family might have to commute to work in Cork doesn't mean the rest of the family would also - they would most probably be at school, doing their shopping etc in the town. I agree that out of town shopping centres rot the core out of a town but there's more than that behind Youghal's decline. Another major problem which affects the town is the non existence of a well thought out tourism development strategy for the country as a whole. Have a think about it before replying as your reasoning is very simplistic.


  • Options
    #43
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    OurLadyofKnock wrote: »
    This wibbling pulled off Giger Ale Productions is not only 100% completely serious but is an insight into the psychological landscape of the typical WRC supporter and how these people hogged the entire rail transport debate in this country which resulted in the mess we are in now.

    http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/2210/Varadkar-to-review-road-and-rail-projects



    Anyone else want to dispute my statements on this thread.

    I read that earlier. ****ing demented and still believing the same old ****. It must be ingrained in the mind of the old fart trainspotter that cannot see beyond 21st century living. What a pity that it can't be challenged on that particular site.:rolleyes:

    If I may add, the site you took it from is almost surreal in it representation of rail matters. (despite its claim to being the "Informed Online resource for all matters relating to Irish Railways) If one was new to railways in Ireland and that site came up in a google search, you would end up with such a backward view of Irish Railways that you would be convinced we were still an antiquated museum for Irish/British trainspotters.

    Recent news that MN and DU are about to be shafted, barely makes a thread on it, while the WRC and similar lines are kept relatively up to date via threads. It really makes the banner claim so irrelevant. But there you go!:rolleyes:


  • Options
    #44
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    I never suggested that turning Youghal into a dormitory town would be the saving of it, part of it - yes. Do you think that it's not already a commuter town despite having no rail link? By making it a more attractive commute it would encourage people to want to live there, and just because the breadwinners in a family might have to commute to work in Cork doesn't mean the rest of the family would also - they would most probably be at school, doing their shopping etc in the town. I agree that out of town shopping centres rot the core out of a town but there's more than that behind Youghal's decline. Another major problem which affects the town is the non existence of a well thought out tourism development strategy for the country as a whole. Have a think about it before replying as your reasoning is very simplistic.

    Honestly JD, while I respect a lot of what you have to say, this Youghal thing is going nowhere and it will generate no support beyond a trainspotter that merely wants to see previous haunts reopened for no reason beyond nostalgia.


  • Options
    #45
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    Whilst I appreciate that it is vital that existing infrastructure is maintained in a safe condition (both road and rail), I do hope that consideration is given to the fact that rail projects such as phase 2 of the WRC to Tuam will reduce the dependency on the road network in the West and will build on the success of the already re-opened section of the WRC.

    That is Tim Casterton - the man responsible for banning me from Irishrailwaynews in September 2009, who wrote the most convuluted pathetic excuse for a ban ever conceived since North Korea allowed critique of President Kim Jong Il.


  • Options
    #46
    weehamster
    Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭weehamster


    I really wish people get real.:mad: So for all those dreamers who still have their heads in the clouds...

    There is no money around to build any rail or road project. None. There isn't a secret stash of cash hidden somewhere that will suddenly appear out of the blue. Oh yeh, and the state owes hundreds of billions of Euros.

    Have a nice day.:)


  • Options
    #47
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    @Judgement Day:

    I didn't mean that you thought turning Youghal into a dormitory town would be its saving. What I meant was that it has more pressing issues to deal with. I would support a plan to reopen the line, as long as it was part of an overall strategy. Unfortunately, many politicians seem to think that a railway line by itself is a panacea.


  • Options
    #48
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    OurLadyofKnock wrote: »
    They demanded their crazy trainspotter wet dream. The made sure it became the most important rail project in the country. People in Dublin who did not even know there was a Dart Underground were "excited" about this amazing Western Rail Corridor which was constantly on the news in the papers. They could not wait to use it hearing amazing stories of trains flying up and down the West Coast. Anyone who pointed out it was a joke were called "haters of the people of the West..."

    Then:

    • IT FLOPPED
    • IT THEN BECAME THE EXCUSE NOT TO INVEST IN RAIL TRANSPORT ANYWHERE.

    Just how it was planned all along.

    Maybe you'd get more sympathetic replies here...


  • Options
    #49
    shamwari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭shamwari


    dermo88 wrote: »
    That is Tim Casterton - the man responsible for banning me from Irishrailwaynews in September 2009, who wrote the most convuluted pathetic excuse for a ban ever conceived since North Korea allowed critique of President Kim Jong Il.
    I'm sure you'll get over it. Time heals.


  • Options
    #50
    Partizan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 629 ✭✭✭Partizan


    dermo88 wrote: »
    Whilst I appreciate that it is vital that existing infrastructure is maintained in a safe condition (both road and rail), I do hope that consideration is given to the fact that rail projects such as phase 2 of the WRC to Tuam will reduce the dependency on the road network in the West and will build on the success of the already re-opened section of the WRC.

    That is Tim Casterton - the man responsible for banning me from Irishrailwaynews in September 2009, who wrote the most convuluted pathetic excuse for a ban ever conceived since North Korea allowed critique of President Kim Jong Il.

    Maybe you didnt like his chicken dinner :p


  • Options
    #51
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    dermo88 wrote: »
    Whilst I appreciate that it is vital that existing infrastructure is maintained in a safe condition (both road and rail), I do hope that consideration is given to the fact that rail projects such as phase 2 of the WRC to Tuam will reduce the dependency on the road network in the West and will build on the success of the already re-opened section of the WRC.

    That is Tim Casterton - the man responsible for banning me from Irishrailwaynews in September 2009, who wrote the most convuluted pathetic excuse for a ban ever conceived since North Korea allowed critique of President Kim Jong Il.

    The deluded fellow who from the mainland wrote endless letters to the Irish media talking about reducing road congestion in the West of Ireland.

    This thread is great. You can see the fear in their Chicken Dinner eyes. They want it shut down as it is truth. Just like when we said the WRC would flop was the truth.

    Not one of the Lemon Curd Contingent can say. "You guys were right abuot the WRC all along..." Nope not a man among any of them.

    It takes a man to admit he was wrong. It take a maggot to post a link to a conspiricy thorey message board to shut a thread down and a cowardly lesser maggot to give it a thumbs up with a creppy smirk on their pasty faces.

    History will record the truth. Trainspotters kill Transport 21 as much as Bertie. They kept all eyes on a ball which was deflated and incapble of rolling properly.

    Derek when is your book coming out?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Surely it was Marmite not Lemon Curd? :confused:


  • Options
    #53
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    OurLadyofKnock wrote: »
    The deluded fellow who from the mainland wrote endless letters to the Irish media talking about reducing road congestion in the West of Ireland.

    This thread is great. You can see the fear in their Chicken Dinner eyes. They want it shut down as it is truth. Just like when we said the WRC would flop was the truth.

    Not one of the Lemon Curd Contingent can say. "You guys were right abuot the WRC all along..." Nope not a man among any of them.

    It takes a man to admit he was wrong. It take a maggot to post a link to a conspiricy thorey message board to shut a thread down and a cowardly lesser maggot to give it a thumbs up with a creppy smirk on their pasty faces.

    History will record the truth. Trainspotters kill Transport 21 as much as Bertie. They kept all eyes on a ball which was deflated and incapble of rolling properly.

    Derek when is your book coming out?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69225301&postcount=2

    Ourladyofknock banned for 48 hours for trolling.


    If conversation is not kept civil, threads will be locked and posters banned.


  • Options
    #54
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    I can't be the only one not getting all these references :confused:


  • Options
    #55
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,854 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Aard wrote: »
    I can't be the only one not getting all these references :confused:

    Railtours stereotypically have a stop in a hotel for dinner which is stereotypically chicken-based; and trainspotter on said tours apparently enjoy eating lemon curd and are all called Nigel or Tarquin, and are British.

    Never having done a railtour, I can't confirm or deny this.


  • Options
    #56
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Aard wrote: »
    I can't be the only one not getting all these references :confused:

    As MYOB said,

    I also believe it's covered in here somewhere, good read either way
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055989743


  • Options
    #57
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    Chris - I am speaking fluent Wayne Rooney viking dialect, but here goes,

    pleae do not ban ne, i tnank the miderayors ofn irisharailenqas are complete chi bair, aftre 3 lites of tioger bee do yu ealaun 3xpcyt me to be fl;ucn t qnd coheiengt,

    tim cvasttertonm tye waznker tyyyhent beaned nbe, dop oi reallly give a flvcyiombh fic,ik,,//................


  • Options
    #58
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    I couldn't be arsed trying to work out what you've written, I've better things to be doing.

    Thread locked because we were unable to rescue it and get it back on-topic.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement