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Marine Electric Engine

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  • 19-08-2014 12:03am
    #1
    BrensBenz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭


    My buddy bought a 1940's Dutch sailing barge (well, HE loves it!) which is equipped with proper sails and a newish diesel engine. After some renovation, he hopes to take it to the Shannon and Erne as a retirement weekend retreat.

    However, the cabin space is quite restricted and he feels that, under power, below decks, where the engine and fuel tank live, would be unpleasantly noisy and smelly. He is looking at the possibility of replacing the diesel with electric but doesn't know where to start.

    He asked me (don't know why) so I told him that I knew the very place to find any information, i.e. boards / Sailing and Boating.

    The boat is quite heavy - maybe 3 to 5 tons? - but he doesn't want a speedboat. Sails will be his first option, with motor as a back-up and around jetties and marinas.

    Access to the engine bay is generous so removing the diesel engine would be quite easy.

    The boat has two pointy ends so the idea of fitting an outboard was rejected because it would require a substantial (an unoriginal) engine mount.

    So, are there local (Irish) suppliers and / or trustworthy fitters of electric engines? Are there obvious, practical reasons to forget about electric?


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    #2
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    You could convert it to LPG - be quieter and no diesel smell

    http://www.autogasmarine.com/


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    #3
    fergal.b
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,324 Mod ✭✭✭✭fergal.b


    Interesting project:) I don't think we are quite there yet with electric motors and battery power storage at the moment although we should be with the way mobile phones have developed, the technology is out there but it's not cheep the only other electric ones I know about are a hire barge and a class room barge. There are some quite diesel engines out there and with the help of good sound insulation shouldn't be that annoying. Another option might be to put the engine out of the way and run a hydraulic pump off it that will turn the prop shaft.




    .


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    #4
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    leccy worked for submarines - still need a way to recharge them though

    another problem is if they are lead-acid batteries and get flooded with salt water you'll get chlorine gas which might kill you

    and stibine and arsine

    wouldn't want to drop a spanner into this :eek:

    9m3ygSa.jpg


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    #5
    BrensBenz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭BrensBenz


    gctest50 wrote: »
    You could convert it to LPG - be quieter and no diesel smell

    http://www.autogasmarine.com/

    Yes, I'm a big fan of LPG. I had two cars running on LPG in the 1980's but it never really caught on. I may be wrong but I don't recall seeing many LPG outlets on the Shannon or Erne.

    fergal.b wrote: »
    Interesting project:) I don't think we are quite there yet with electric motors and battery power storage at the moment although we should be with the way mobile phones have developed, the technology is out there but it's not cheep the only other electric ones I know about are a hire barge and a class room barge. There are some quite diesel engines out there and with the help of good sound insulation shouldn't be that annoying. Another option might be to put the engine out of the way and run a hydraulic pump off it that will turn the prop shaft.

    While pondering the idea yesterday with my buddy, I did mention that any space saved by dumping the diesel tank would be eaten up immediately by batteries. That wasn't a concern to him because "batteries don't smell"?!?

    The engine lives under the aft deck so it can't really be moved further away from the cabin. It's a one cylinder thumper (can't remember the brand!) and we've only run it for a few minutes, on a mooring, so we may be worrying about nothing, but we both think that engine vibration through the hull could be uncomfortable. We can certainly look at better engine mounts and sound-proofing but, in his eyes, we still have a huge and smelly diesel tank. On arrival, the bilges contained a 50/50, semi-solid mix of decomposing creatures from the North Sea preserved in old diesel. After cleaning that out, and not wishing ever to do it again, he's become religiously anti-diesel.

    Anyway, there's lots of hull work to do first - paint where there should be varnish; patches where there should be scarfs, etc. We're both on chemotherapy so progress may be slow!

    It's not my boat but personally, I'm more inclined to an outboard, maybe with a removable and stowable mount, so that the traditional lines of the boat are not interrupted.

    PS: Regarding the submarine, does anybody share my interest in building a mini-submarine? I've done a lot of research on this and it would be electric-powered (possibly windscreen wiper motors from trucks) but my maths are not good enough to figure out how to make it sink AND (more importantly) resurface! Do you think insurance would be a problem??


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    #6
    fergal.b
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,324 Mod ✭✭✭✭fergal.b


    A lot of people like me :) love the putt putt sound of a single cylinder engine in a barge they sort of go hand in hand. If it's something like an old Bolinder engine and he does take it out :( I might be interested in taking her on as a restoration project I'm sure I could fix any fuel leaks.

    Also with electric you will have a very short cruising distance and I don't think there are many charging points along the canals.
    How about something like this http://www.betamarine.co.uk/inland/Beta_SuperSilent/supersilent_inland.html Yes I know it's diesel :) but when fitted right you should always have a clean bilge . I think an outboard would really only work an a very small barge.

    Don't even think about a submarine it will break your heart and your bank balance :eek:

    .


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    #7
    copper12
    Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭copper12


    Brensbenz
    I have been looking into the same thing
    As fergal has mentioned the technology is out there but very expensive
    My line of thought for what it worth in either forklift or golf cart system
    Converted to suite my needs
    You have forward reverse
    The controllers and the accelerator wiring harness= can be shortened or lengthened to suite
    Small wind generator and some solar panels and off you go
    It should work for the Shannon or the Erne
    I haven’t gotten into it to much I have a lot going on now with my own restoration but there’s a long winter there so I might have a better plan by spring
    There a link here might help https://www.glen-l.com/phpBB2/index.php


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    #8
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    fergal.b wrote: »
    ......
    Don't even think about a submarine it will break your heart and your bank balance :eek:

    no no - a "historic" one is dead easy ~ about 5000 would go a long way ;)


    http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2010-09/submobile


    jJ3tOhe.jpg


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    #9
    fergal.b
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,324 Mod ✭✭✭✭fergal.b


    It's hard enough to get insurance for my homemade wooden boat I can imagine what they would say to a home made wooden sub :pac:



    .


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    #10
    BrensBenz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭BrensBenz


    copper12 wrote: »
    ...As fergal has mentioned the technology is out there but very expensive
    My line of thought for what it worth in either forklift or golf cart system
    Converted to suite my needs
    You have forward reverse
    The controllers and the accelerator wiring harness= can be shortened or lengthened to suite
    Small wind generator and some solar panels and off you go
    It should work for the Shannon or the Erne...
    There a link here might help https://www.glen-l.com/phpBB2/index.php

    Yes, copper12, if it MUST be electric and, as there doesn't seem to be an over-the-counter electric option, I was thinking along these lines too. But, as I'm the electrics "expert"(???), I would end up sourcing, modifying, installing, fixing and guaranteeing the system for life! He is a buddy but I don't want to marry him!

    It isn't a big boat - in fact I would guess it's only about 22 feet with a wide beam, leeboards, gaff-rigged. Where paint has been damaged, we can see oak planking so it will be heavy and as ugly as it sounds. Can you imagine a gaff-rigged Dutch clog? So, if we were allowed to consider an outboard, it wouldn't be too difficult to calculate the necessary engine size. The diesel thumper installed now is either 10 or 12 horsepower pushing (according to the previous owner) a "wrong" propeller.

    Anyway gentlemen, many thanks for your thoughts. I'll share your suggestions with the owner and see how he reacts.

    As for the mini-sub, my thoughts so far: Composite, elliptical section hull on ply frames; helicopter style "bubble" conning tower; scuba gear for safety; batteries and concrete ballast in sealed bilge; manually-operated / compressed air ballast tanks; wiper motor(s); standard / trolling propeller; two forward and two aft, manually operated hydrofoils. The aim is to submerge to 10 to 20 feet max, on sunny, calm days, for coastal photography.
    Unfortunately, we didn't cover submarines in my Leaving Cert maths classes so calculating how much ballast will allow Das Boot to just float and the volume of water required in the ballast tanks to sink it has me baffled.


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    #11
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    fergal.b wrote: »
    A lot of people like me :) love the putt putt sound of a single cylinder engine in a barge they sort of go hand in hand. If it's something like an old Bolinder engine.......
    Sorry for drifting a bit, but is that the yoke that needs a shotgun cartridge to start it? I remember years ago a Swedish gaffer that woke everyone up with a bang when they were leaving port. It'd be cool to have one of them in DL!


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    #12
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 28,867 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Sorry for drifting a bit, but is that the yoke that needs a shotgun cartridge to start it? I remember years ago a Swedish gaffer that woke everyone up with a bang when they were leaving port. It'd be cool to have one of them in DL!

    That made me properly LOL :D:D:D


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    #13
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    I Googled it - it's a Marshall engine :)
    To start the Marshall a smouldering piece of special paper, containing saltpetre is inserted into the cylinder head by means of the special screw-in holder in the cylinder head.
    A cartridge starting system is also fitted. A shot-gun type cartridge is loaded into a breech on the engine's intake system. The smouldering paper is placed in the cylinder head, and the cartridge is fired by tapping the protrusion pin with a hammer. This puts a charge into the bore, sending the piston through its stroke, bursting into life. This method, however, deposits carbon which often causes jamming of the decompression valve if cartridges are regularly used.
    Far more fun than all that clean electricity stuff!


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    #14
    fergal.b
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,324 Mod ✭✭✭✭fergal.b


    Reminds me of the movie "Flight of the phoenix" But I don't think his engine is that old that it needs a cartage to start :)




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    #15
    BrensBenz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭BrensBenz


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    ...is that the yoke that needs a shotgun cartridge to start it?...It'd be cool to have one of them in DL!

    No! The boat is "fully loaded", which means that it is equipped with a clever little device called a "switch", ingeniously labelled with a clockwise arrow and the word "start". Both my buddy and I are sailors, still struggling with the ethics of putting engines in boats, so these helpful features were much appreciated.

    Also, now that peace and calm have returned to Norn Arn, I'd hate to disturb that, particularly for the ducks and swans in the wonderful Lough Erne, with shotgun blasts followed by thumping, amplified by a barge-shaped sound box, big enough for a stadium rock band.

    I haven't discussed it with him yet but I believe he has found something in the USA which, when he solves the voltage difference, sells his house, cars, tropical fish and music collection, he might be able to afford.

    Now, as I was saying, the mini sub..............


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    #16
    fergal.b
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,324 Mod ✭✭✭✭fergal.b


    Starting point :) A home gas tank should be able to handle the pressure.


    residential-propane-tank.jpg


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    #17
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    BrensBenz wrote: »
    No! The boat is "fully loaded", which means that it is equipped with a clever little device called a "switch", ingeniously labelled with a clockwise arrow and the word "start". Both my buddy and I are sailors, still struggling with the ethics of putting engines in boats, so these helpful features were much appreciated.
    Interesting. I suppose an iron donkey saves one from singling up warps and backing a jib against a spring! It never ceases to amaze me why petrolheads need to be held by the hand for so long, even into middle age and beyond, with symbols, arrows and even warning exclamation marks on everything. My distrust in engines is such that I keep mine hanging off the transom and dip it in only when really necessary.

    Would it be feasible to install a 'well' near the barge's stern and plonk an outboard into it?
    BrensBenz wrote: »
    Also, now that peace and calm have returned to Norn Arn, I'd hate to disturb that, particularly for the ducks...
    Just wait for September 1, duck season opens! Quite a bang off a 12bore 34gram no.4!
    BrensBenz wrote: »
    I haven't discussed it with him yet but I believe he has found something in the USA which, when he solves the voltage difference,
    On a more serious note - Step-down transformers are available but the bigger ones cost an arm and a leg, (so it’s often a false economy) and do not work with everything.
    BrensBenz wrote: »
    Now, as I was saying, the mini sub............. .
    Mini-sub: no reason why not, I remember years ago a guy built a small plane in his upstairs flat in South Frederick St. I’d say you have three insurance issues (i) life insurance – check that there are no exclusions that could affect cover; (ii) loss/fire/theft – probably not a starter or worthwhile on a difficulty / cost basis; (iii) Public Liability – check your household policy to see if this is automatically covered, it might be covered under a ‘smallcraft’ cover clause. Most household policies cover €3 – 10 million, depending on underwriter.

    @Fergal – Have you considered getting the boat surveyed? With a good survey you probably would recoup the cost with insurance premium reductions and – forbid the thought – it would make an eventual sale easier.


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    #18
    BrensBenz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭BrensBenz


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Would it be feasible to install a 'well' near the barge's stern and plonk an outboard into it?

    Strangely, I had this in mind but wanted to visit the boat again before suggesting it to the owner.

    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Just wait for September 1, duck season opens! Quite a bang off a 12bore 34gram no.4!

    You mean, they shoot ducks???

    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Step-down transformers are available but the bigger ones cost an arm and a leg, (so it’s often a false economy) and do not work with everything.

    Yes, been there, done that. Difficult to find, particularly for US to EU three-phase, and hugely expensive, but it was a work project and the company paid for it. Single phase should be easier to find but the amps required for a battery bank bring it back to the "sharp intake of breath" area.
    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Mini-sub: no reason why not.

    Nice, positive thinking there! Thanks.
    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    I’d say you have three insurance issues.

    With my present health issues, life assurance company computers will automatically say "no"! Fair play to anyone who manages to steal it and I don't envisage taking passengers or operating in built-up areas. I may need to consult the motor insurance people and maybe the gorthee about towing it. Maybe flashing yellow lights?
    fergal.b wrote: »
    A home gas tank should be able to handle the pressure.

    Nice one, Fergal. My preference was for composite materials because I have a lot of experience with them and the result would be prettier, but the gas tank, with a ballasted keel attached to keep it upright, is a good starting point.

    I'm getting a sense that....maybe.....contributors to this thread are slowing moving from "wtf?" to "hhmm!" Just imagine, the colours of sunlit rocks and seaweed, gently swaying in the tide; spotting critters hiking over rocks, etc. What must it be like to be just below surface in a shoal of mackeral?

    And no! I won't be using the periscope as a mast for sails!


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    #19
    fergal.b
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,324 Mod ✭✭✭✭fergal.b


    How about an ROV it would be alot safer :), I have been following this guy's projects for a while now and one of them is for an ROV I know he is going for a lot deeper water but he has lots of videos here that cover everything you need to know.



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    #20
    Sh1tbag OToole
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,973 ✭✭✭Sh1tbag OToole


    007-Sub.jpg


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    #21
    JamesM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭JamesM


    My 32ft sailing catamaran on Derg has 2 Torqeedo Cruise 4, 48v electric outboards. Each one's thrust is rated the same as a 9.9 petrol outboard. Because I am based on an inland lake where land is only a few minutes away, I am not too worried about endurance and running time. I have 2 battery banks, so the backup bank will get me home or into the nearest harbour. I also have a Honda EU2000i generator running on lpg which can charge my batteries, if shore power is not available. It will also give me about 3 knots when running, without taking from my batteries.
    This naturally would not work at sea, where you might need to run the engines for hours to get to the nearest harbour, or drive against wind and tide.
    There are very small electric motors available which will sit in place of diesel engines and connect to the original drive shafts.


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    #22
    BrensBenz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭BrensBenz


    fergal.b wrote: »
    How about an ROV

    I'll take a look at this link shortly but, for me, an ROV is sort of missing the point. I could mount a camera into a small, remote controlled model sub and probably get some great shots but the hairs at the back of my neck would remain undisturbed.
    Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »
    007-Sub.jpg

    Hhmmm! I know we're supposed to believe that 007 was lying prostrate in the 'gatersub but I think he's wearing it like a scarf.
    JamesM wrote: »
    My 32ft sailing catamaran on Derg has 2 Torqeedo Cruise 4, 48v electric outboards. Each one's thrust is rated the same as a 9.9 petrol outboard. Because I am based on an inland lake where land is only a few minutes away, I am not too worried about endurance and running time. I have 2 battery banks, so the backup bank will get me home or into the nearest harbour. I also have a Honda EU2000i generator running on lpg which can charge my batteries, if shore power is not available. It will also give me about 3 knots when running, without taking from my batteries.
    This naturally would not work at sea, where you might need to run the engines for hours to get to the nearest harbour, or drive against wind and tide.
    There are very small electric motors available which will sit in place of diesel engines and connect to the original drive shafts.

    Now we're getting closer, thanks James! Any details of the small electric motors would be most appreciated.


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    #23
    fergal.b
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,324 Mod ✭✭✭✭fergal.b


    I don't think they will work with a 2-3 ton barge :( but for an electric sub they would be the way to go :)

    jamesM if you have $25 to spend you might like this http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Navy-Puts-Sailboat-Up-for-Public-Auction-271779801.html


    .


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    #24
    JamesM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭JamesM


    fergal.b wrote: »
    I don't think they will work with a 2-3 ton barge :( but for an electric sub they would be the way to go :)

    jamesM if you have $25 to spend you might like this http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Navy-Puts-Sailboat-Up-for-Public-Auction-271779801.html
    .

    Someone will buy that, put on a conventional rig and cruise around the world :)

    A barge is a lot heavier, but these are some of the sites I checked out when I was doing my research. Maybe you can get some ideas BrensBenz.

    http://www.fischerpanda.de/products/deu/141.htm/

    http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/index.php?dispatch=categories.view&category_id=34

    http://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/electric_propulsion.html

    http://www.mindspring.com/~jimkerr1/sebebts.htm


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    #25
    JamesM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭JamesM


    I see that Torqeedo now do inboard engines: http://www.torqeedo.com/us/electric-outboards/deep-blue-for-commercial-operators-and-green-boaters/system-outboard-40-80-hp-2


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