DART+ (DART Expansion)

poteen o hooley · 21-10-2014 3:45pm

Everyone forgiving FF?

18% in the polls.

hahaha

Oasis_Dublin · 21-10-2014 3:47pm

Have we got any recent elections to go by? Have Fianna Fáil, the Irish economic sovereignty hating Irish Republican party, been the biggest party at any national elections recently. What use are elections when we have random polls?!

poteen o hooley · 21-10-2014 4:06pm

There's never been Oirish economic sovereignity

poteen o hooley · 21-10-2014 4:09pm

There's never been Oirish economic sovereignity

Real power is with markets/big central banks.

Rest is fairy tales.

Oasis_Dublin · 21-10-2014 4:13pm

Glib, and edited. Anyway, DU.

richiek83 · 21-10-2014 4:26pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

they were close to starting and then the economy tanked, a REAL pity that they hadnt started. Ultimately I would blame the politicians more than voters, like I said, the should do what it takes to get reelected and once in, the can do contentious stuff (to some) in the early years. They generally only do something here, when the situation is so bad, that it cant be ignored... By the time MN gets built for example, the airport will probably have close to if not more than 30,000,000 using it! It will be 22,000,000 this year, a mere 6 miles out of town and it doesnt have its own rail link, now I appreciate the airports numbers exploded during the boom and why it was derailed during the bust, but this should be on the cards again asap AFAIC, it will open up serious amounts of land for high density development, increase employment, increase property value in its vicinity, thus increasing council taxes, increase people's quality of life, save the economy lots in loss of productivity...

DU is priority one though... If they serve the docklands with proper high quality transport, they could house a major amount of people in the docklands on sites currently vacant or by demolishing a lot of the low density crap that they have allowed and continue to allow (obviously the higher the site value, the quicker this would / could happen)...

True. MN was included in capital expenditure element of the the Four Year Plan which was devised around the time of the bailout. New Govt was elected and persued different objectives. NTA is currently reviewing options for transport in the MN/ North Dublin corridor to Swords. This review is expected to be completed by the end of the first quarter in 2015.

Aard · 21-10-2014 7:48pm

Back on topic please. Politics forum is that-a-way -->

- Moderator.

cgcsb · 22-10-2014 9:47am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The big difference is that Luas has nothing to do with CIE/IR. I would say the unwillingness to advance DU is more to do with government/senior civil servants distrust of CIE and the fact that the company is a perpetual loss making basketcase. The government doesn’t want to invest any more money into the company and would be quite happy for it to die. Instead they are investing in NTA/RPA projects (Luas BXD, BRT, cycling network).

If we were going to see DU progressed any time soon I would have expected the KPR2 to get funding in this budget. It seems like a no-brainer of a project; creates a new Dart line to service west Dublin/east Kildare, improves journey times on intercity services and paves the way for DU. It is much more than a project for Dublin, it benefits the national rail network. However, policy seems to be to keep funding away from IR and hope that it will things get so bad that they can pull the plug.

I think you are overlooking the vast differential in capital costs. The state can fund several projects across the country e.g. BXD, BRT, Cycle network and bike schemes in the regional Cities. Although DART Underground will probably deliver as many if not more benefits, it's the speed of delivery and the value of the smaller projects that attracts looser purse strings. DART u is a more long term project, a minimum of 4 years construction and massive capital required. It's just not as politically appealing.

MICKEYG · 22-10-2014 10:07am

cgcsb wrote: »

I think you are overlooking the vast differential in capital costs. The state can fund several projects across the country e.g. BXD, BRT, Cycle network and bike schemes in the regional Cities. Although DART Underground will probably deliver as many if not more benefits, it's the speed of delivery and the value of the smaller projects that attracts looser purse strings. DART u is a more long term project, a minimum of 4 years construction and massive capital required. It's just not as politically appealing.

And therein lies the problem with this country. Rather than make the right decision and stand behind it we make the political short term decision and pay for it.

It does amaze me that even though both DU and MN have such strong business cases, no one tried to solve the problem with private funding. We had a construction industry on it knees with huge numbers of available workers. Why not get private investors in to fund the whole thing (at prices lower than would be the case even today), promising them a share of revenues to repay their investment.
I know lending was hard to come by but could the EIB not have stepped up given the favorable cost benefit analysis?
Doing the above would mean no impact on the exchequer figures.
Maybe I am being naive here.

cgcsb · 22-10-2014 12:03pm

MICKEYG wrote: »

And therein lies the problem with this country. Rather than make the right decision and stand behind it we make the political short term decision and pay for it.

It does amaze me that even though both DU and MN have such strong business cases, no one tried to solve the problem with private funding. We had a construction industry on it knees with huge numbers of available workers. Why not get private investors in to fund the whole thing (at prices lower than would be the case even today), promising them a share of revenues to repay their investment.
I know lending was hard to come by but could the EIB not have stepped up given the favorable cost benefit analysis?
Doing the above would mean no impact on the exchequer figures.
Maybe I am being naive here.

Such a private venture would carry significant risk, especially in the depths of recession, and private investors wouldn't touch it unless there was at least some commitment from the state.

MICKEYG · 22-10-2014 12:17pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Such a private venture would carry significant risk, especially in the depths of recession, and private investors wouldn't touch it unless there was at least some commitment from the state.

Agreed but recessions never last forever and given the time to completion and the cost benefit analysis the business case looked strong.

cgcsb · 22-10-2014 1:31pm

MICKEYG wrote: »

Agreed but recessions never last forever and given the time to completion and the cost benefit analysis the business case looked strong.

Alas the foresight of capital markets is often even shorter than the government's planning foresight. 4 years+ waiting for your project to open and an additional X number of years to wait for it to break even is a long long time, especially when there plenty of other quick gain investment opportunities to be had. Projects like this really need to be led by the state/local authority. PPP schemes are a great way to get private investment into schemes that wouldn't be quite as attractive to private money.

Pete_Cavan · 22-10-2014 6:08pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I think you are overlooking the vast differential in capital costs. The state can fund several projects across the country e.g. BXD, BRT, Cycle network and bike schemes in the regional Cities. Although DART Underground will probably deliver as many if not more benefits, it's the speed of delivery and the value of the smaller projects that attracts looser purse strings. DART u is a more long term project, a minimum of 4 years construction and massive capital required. It's just not as politically appealing.

The KPR2 could be funded now and would benefit commuter rail in the greater Dublin area and also intercity services so can be presented as a national project. It is also a necessary enabling works project for DU. I would suggest this would be a better use of €250m than an under capacity BRT line to Swords/airport and would be easier to sell to the national electorate but yet doesnt seem to be on the radar any more.

D.L.R. · 24-10-2014 4:33pm

A morsel here, courtesy of the Minister for Transport.

Major projects subject to review or report include a decision on which big ticket project – such as Dart Underground, Metro North or even Metro West – should be progressed.

The National Transport Authority will report by early next year and he is agnostic on which project will win. “My commitment is to agreeing on what the project is and then working within government to get the funding to do it,” he says, “but I will be looking to the National Transport Authority to do the technical evaluation.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/paschal-donohoe-driven-by-planes-trains-and-star-wars-1.1975009

cgcsb · 24-10-2014 6:59pm

After the first paragraph I had to check if it was the Waterford whisperer

Pete_Cavan · 25-10-2014 11:08am

The key, he says, is capital funding for Iarnród Éireann. He “will be engaging with the National Transport Authority and Irish Rail” over coming weeks.

“I am confident we will be able to maintain the same level of service next year that Irish Rail has this year.”

It is talk like this that makes me think that the government have no interest in Irish Rail, they will be kept on basic rations until they have fallen into line or the company gets to the point where they can pull the plug altogether. New agencies have been set up which are not as unionised (yet) and the government prefer to give them the money.

antoinolachtnai · 27-10-2014 11:28pm

I really think that a higher level rethink is needed than just thinking about capital funding. It takes a lot more than just a capital asset to run a world class public transport service through a tunnel. A lot of smarts are needed too, at all stages.

I think the right thing to do here would be to get in investment from an international player in this area.

FreudianSlippers · 28-10-2014 9:44am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I really think that a higher level rethink is needed than just thinking about capital funding. It takes a lot more than just a capital asset to run a world class public transport service through a tunnel. A lot of smarts are needed too, at all stages.

I think the right thing to do here would be to get in investment from an international player in this area.

Whether one agrees with Irish Water in theory, I think that the government has made a total balls of the project and that type of infrastructure mess only adds to your point regarding transport infrastructure.

ClovenHoof · 29-10-2014 12:27am

It is NEVER going to be built. 30 Years overdue. Endless reports.

The DART Interconnector will never happen. Everyone on this thread knows it is their hearts than no Irish Government wants to build it EVER.

JeffK88 · 29-10-2014 12:36am

All I see from that post is NEVER DART EVER ..Everything else is not needed :pac:

1huge1 · 30-10-2014 7:16pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

It is NEVER going to be built. 30 Years overdue. Endless reports.

The DART Interconnector will never happen. Everyone on this thread knows it is their hearts than no Irish Government wants to build it EVER.

Maybe so, maybe not, but the Luas was built when many said it would never happen, in the depths of a recession the Luas cross city project got the go ahead.

annfield1978 · 11-11-2014 2:24pm

No announcement in the budget on this?, I thought there was a deadline for the government to decide whether to go ahead with purchasing lands tied up with the railway order?

ClovenHoof · 11-11-2014 3:37pm

annfield1978 wrote: »

No announcement in the budget on this?, I thought there was a deadline for the government to decide whether to go ahead with purchasing lands tied up with the railway order?

Never going to happen. It is a mythology created by Governments and Civil Servants with the purpose of pretending they will invest in public transport.

It's a form of hypnosis. All one has to do is read over this thread people talking about it like it is real. It is not and never will be. A spell that was first cast in 1973 and still continues to this day with a dozens of redrafted plans and reports in between to keep the hypnosis going.

This is Ireland, we don't do proper public transport. We are given glossy brochures.

In 9 years time the DART Underground plan will be a Half Century old. Let that sink in.

Idbatterim · 11-11-2014 4:22pm

they try to kick things down the road as far as possible, nearly the best thing to happen would be for the gridlock to return as quick as possible that and finances improving, they can only bury their heads in the sand for so long..

Schadenfreudia · 16-11-2014 1:08pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

In 9 years time the DART Underground plan will be a Half Century old. Let that sink in.

There is hope for your grandchildren tough!

The Southern Cross was being talked about for about 50 years and it actually opened in 2005 or thereabouts!

strassenwo!f · 16-11-2014 5:01pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

In 9 years time the DART Underground plan will be a Half Century old. Let that sink in.

ClovenHoof, in fairness, the DART Underground plan is only about 14 years old.

The original plans for an underground line across the city will be around 50 years old in around a decade. But those were significantly different to the current plan.

strassenwo!f · 16-11-2014 6:03pm

The LUAS was there, remember.

If you're going to build a big-ticket project across the city, you want to show that you're integrating as many transport modes as possible. And this meant integrating the LUAS, ie building via St. Stephen's Green.

Adding at least 100 million euro to the cost, but integrating with the LUAS.

omicron · 16-11-2014 6:46pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The LUAS was there, remember.

If you're going to build a big-ticket project across the city, you want to show that you're integrating as many transport modes as possible. And this meant integrating the LUAS, ie building via St. Stephen's Green.

Adding at least 100 million euro to the cost, but integrating with the LUAS.

Not very subtle, you have a whole thread for that.

D.L.R. · 16-11-2014 10:13pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The LUAS was there, remember.

If you're going to build a big-ticket project across the city, you want to show that you're integrating as many transport modes as possible. And this meant integrating the LUAS, ie building via St. Stephen's Green.

Adding at least 100 million euro to the cost, but integrating with the LUAS.

Make it stop make it stop!

strassenwo!f · 16-11-2014 11:44pm

omicron wrote: »

Not very subtle, you have a whole thread for that.

I note that you're getting thanked by all and sundry, but is discussing the reasons for building the interconnector via St. Stephen's Green not more relevant to this thread?

cgcsb · 16-11-2014 11:46pm

Oh jeepers, give it up.

omicron · 16-11-2014 11:57pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I note that you're getting thanked by all and sundry, but is discussing the reasons for building the interconnector via St. Stephen's Green not more relevant to this thread?

No.

KCAccidental · 17-11-2014 12:18am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I note that you're getting thanked by all and sundry, but is discussing the reasons for building the interconnector via St. Stephen's Green not more relevant to this thread?

strassenwo!f · 17-11-2014 12:24am

omicron wrote: »

No.

Well, can you suggest a better thread than the one entitled 'DART Underground' for a question about the underlying reasons for the chosen route? It's obviously a question which is going to be asked, once the general public become aware that this project is even on the table.

Aard · 17-11-2014 12:28am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I note that you're getting thanked by all and sundry, but is discussing the reasons for building the interconnector via St. Stephen's Green not more relevant to this thread?

You have been instructed about this in the past, and there is an entire thread dedicated to what you want to discuss. Keep it to that thread please. This will be the last warning on the matter.

This moderation action and message should not be replied to by anybody in-thread.

- Moderator.

strassenwo!f · 17-11-2014 3:05am

I can see that a number of people are quite touchy when it comes to explaining why the country should pay for a looping route via St. Stephen's Green.

D Trent · 06-12-2014 10:05pm

It's depressing to see just how far ahead of Ireland the UK are
http://www.thejournal.ie/london-tunnel-cross-rail-1814515-Dec2014/

BonkeyDonker · 06-12-2014 10:26pm

D Trent wrote: »

It's depressing to see just how far ahead of Ireland the UK are
http://www.thejournal.ie/london-tunnel-cross-rail-1814515-Dec2014/

Are they really though - sure they may have built it, but its been talked about in various stages since just after WW2!!!!!

Aand look at HS2 - that going to run and run. Ok, HS1 is doing well, but after the billions sunk into the Channel Tunnel it was required spending.

And look at the Heathrow debacle - 20 years for a new terminal, and the third (and fourth) badly needed runways may never be built.

cgcsb · 07-12-2014 12:21am

D Trent wrote: »

It's depressing to see just how far ahead of Ireland the UK are
http://www.thejournal.ie/london-tunnel-cross-rail-1814515-Dec2014/

London is a mega city. Look at the rest of the UK for an accurate comparison. The Edinburgh tram fiasco for example.

CrabRevolution · 07-12-2014 8:27pm

D Trent wrote: »

It's depressing to see just how far ahead of Ireland the UK are
http://www.thejournal.ie/london-tunnel-cross-rail-1814515-Dec2014/

London's Metropolitan Area has 3 times as many people as our entire country. Hardly surprising that crossrail gets built a bit sooner, its not exactly a fair comparison.

monument · 07-12-2014 9:08pm

CrabRevolution wrote: »

London's Metropolitan Area has 3 times as many people as our entire country. Hardly surprising that crossrail gets built a bit sooner, its not exactly a fair comparison.

Amsterdam and Copenhagen are comparable with Dublin in terms of city and metro populations, and in terms of population density of AMS (but not CPH).

In the time we have been talking about a Dart line under the city centre, both Amsterdam and Copenhagen have built fairly reasonable networks of metro and suburban railways which makes ours look like a joke.

Even if you taken into account of differences such as the Dutch regional / national network, the rail network around the area of Amsterdam or Copenhagen comparable to Dublin shows us up.

KCAccidental · 07-12-2014 11:00pm

Manchester have done brilliantly with metrolink. Never kicked expansion down the road and slowly but surely turned a limited system into an excellent urban transportation structure.

D.L.R. · 07-12-2014 11:29pm

monument wrote: »

Amsterdam and Copenhagen are comparable with Dublin in terms of city and metro populations, and in terms of population density of AMS (but not CPH).

In the time we have been talking about a Dart line under the city centre, both Amsterdam and Copenhagen have built fairly reasonable networks of metro and suburban railways which makes ours look like a joke.

Even if you taken into account of differences such as the Dutch regional / national network, the rail network around the area of Amsterdam or Copenhagen comparable to Dublin shows us up.

That's just two examples. There must be 20 cities in Europe which show up the Irish state on that score.

cgcsb · 08-12-2014 12:24am

Obviously Dublin is miles behind the rest of the western world. Here's a small example: The alpine city of Innsbruck is home to just over 100,000 (about Limerick sized) They run a mix tram and bus with some brt standard sections at pinch points. Ticketing is off board but you can purchase a ticket from the driver at a higher cost. The city is also served by a comprehensive three line electrified suburban rail system,the central section of which has a 15 minute frequency 7 days a week. They also have a nitebus service 7 days a week at a 30 to 60 minute frequency. Ticketing is integrated and seem less in zones, I.e. If you take a train, tram or a bus to your destination, it doesn't matter to the ticket inspector. You can also purchase tickets for your dog, at about 1/3rd of an adult ticket.

AngryLips · 08-12-2014 9:05am

If you ignore Luas, then Dublin performs poorly compared to its peers (and Amaterdam doesn't really compare on that one seeing as it's part of a larger conurbation in a much larger/denser country). But why are we ignoring Luas? The network has seen fairly consistent expansion since it began and is only half the age of Manchester Metrolink. Yes, the city could do better, but I don't think it's doing half bad.

monument · 08-12-2014 10:21am

AngryLips wrote: »

If you ignore Luas, then Dublin performs poorly compared to its peers (and Amaterdam doesn't really compare on that one seeing as it's part of a larger conurbation in a much larger/denser country). But why are we ignoring Luas? The network has seen fairly consistent expansion since it began and is only half the age of Manchester Metrolink. Yes, the city could do better, but I don't think it's doing half bad.

Err... Or just take the Amsterdam metro and/or say half of the local suburban rail.

D.L.R. · 08-12-2014 7:23pm

AngryLips wrote: »

If you ignore Luas, then Dublin performs poorly compared to its peers (and Amaterdam doesn't really compare on that one seeing as it's part of a larger conurbation in a much larger/denser country). But why are we ignoring Luas? The network has seen fairly consistent expansion since it began and is only half the age of Manchester Metrolink. Yes, the city could do better, but I don't think it's doing half bad.

I wouldn't look to Manchester as a model to strive towards. The UK's second-tier cities are notoriously under-funded. A city of Manchester's size in Germany or France would have a comprehensive subway system.

Even if you include the luas, Dublin's transport system is still firmly second-rate. The luas is nice, but its got limited scope in terms of journey times and capacity.

Idbatterim · 08-12-2014 7:44pm

I wouldn't look to Manchester as a model to strive towards. The UK's second-tier cities are notoriously under-funded. A city of Manchester's size in Germany or France would have a comprehensive subway system.

Even if you include the luas, Dublin's transport system is still firmly second-rate. The luas is nice, but its got limited scope in terms of journey times and capacity.

the transport system here is laughabably bad... Speaking of rail transport in the city, I read this earlier... We need Metro north and DU underground asap, a real pity the work didnt start before the s**t hit the fan...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/shelved-metro-north-back-on-agenda-as-six-schemes-being-examined-for-north-dublin-transport-30809124.html

1huge1 · 08-12-2014 7:59pm

I don't understand why they are re-examining the options again. There are some new options there that haven't been spoken about much.

I think everyone would agree that DU should get priority. Public consultation deadline is 19th of January though which is reasonably soon enough.

Only thing we can hope for is if FG/Lab announce some and get it shovel ready ASAP with the aim of getting themselves re-elected in 2016.

Here is a link to the paper published today, originally 26 projects were looked at and now it has been narrowed down to 6.
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Appraisal_Report_19112014_final.pdf

murphaph · 08-12-2014 8:34pm

1huge1 wrote: »

IOnly thing we can hope for is if FG/Lab announce some and get it shovel ready ASAP with the aim of getting themselves re-elected in 2016.

Not to put too fine a point on it but this sh!t doesn't win elections in Ireland!

The very sad reality is that the likes of us on here that want to see this built are in the minority nationally. The electorate is extremely parochial...even voters in South Dublin would rather a swimming pool in their constituency than Metro North in Fingal....and that's inside Dublin. Outside Greater Dublin the likes of Metro North is so controversial that it could easily lose FG the election.

The majority of Irish people simply don't understand the concept of the greater good I'm afraid.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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