High speed rail Cork - Dublin

cgcsb · 22-10-2014 3:13pm

bk wrote: »

I suppose I meant it in more of the terms that most economists say that it is only economically worth running intercity rail between two cities when each city has 1 million+ population. We have only one such city. Thus the reason (amongst others) that intercity rail struggles so badly here.

That is utter nonsense. Do you have any back up for these wild statements? Would these be the same economists that said the boom would get boomier?

cgcsb · 22-10-2014 3:20pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

with the luas at stephens green, could they put a glass box in effect over it, so that you could stay under constant cover when changing between it and MN or DU?

As far as I know, it will be possible to walk between DART U and Metro N by underground walkway, i.e. no need to come to the surface at all.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Also why cant you get a tram on the green line to tallaght direct?

such a journey would be impractical by luas, you would be many times faster on a bus that takes an orbital route.

Idbatterim wrote: »

say every second tram would go to broadstone? Having to change is PITA! particularly if weather is bad.

Because then even more people would have to change tram than having a direct service, and changing isn't that big a deal, assuming we have integrated ticketing by that time. Weather isn't that much of an issue really, we have a mild climate, it's rare that we have any severe storms.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Likewise with metro north, would it not have made sense to made the current green line, the same guage?

They are/will be the same gauge.

Aard · 22-10-2014 3:26pm

Exact tram/metro service routings are a little irrelevant to intercity rail. There are several other threads dealing with those issues.

Bray Head · 06-01-2016 12:23pm

There is talk of an undersea rail link from Tallinn to Helsinki. The cities are about the same size as Dublin and Cork, and the journey currently takes about as long - 2.5 hrs by ferry.

Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel proposals look to bring cities closer than ever

Drifting apart since the first Bronze Age fortifications were built, the Baltic Finns populating opposite sides of the Gulf of Finland were for centuries separated by empire, ideology and cold sea. Now, the historic brethren of present-day Estonia and Finland could be directly linked, as plans accelerate for a 50-mile tunnel running between their capital cities.

I don't believe it will ever come close to being built of course. But it's amazing how voters everywhere suffer politicians coming up with pie-in-the-sky stuff to make themselves look good. No doubt some consultant will earn a crust for a while doing up a report.

cgcsb · 06-01-2016 4:12pm

I doubt such a link would be possible economically speaking. It'd be much less of a runner than an Ireland-UK tunnel, rail connections between Talinn and Berlin are poor so even with such a tunnel built it wouldn't offer Finland the connectivity with Europe they desire. It'd really only be a worthwhile journey for people travelling between Finland and Estonia or possibly on to Latvia.

In contrast with the UK's HS2 system coming to fruition in 2 decades time, a Dublin-Wales Tunnel would offer superb access from Ireland to London, Paris and much of western Europe in as long or possibly shorter a time as it'd take to go to the airport get a plane and get to the city centre at the other end.

BoatMad · 06-01-2016 9:31pm

It makes no sense to increase running speeds on the Dublin to cork. Firstly you have fixed station dwell times. You create pathing difficulties for slower trains and you exacerbate the congestion on approaches to Hueston.

Simply seeking faster running times over comparatively short sections is a issuing of declining returns. Today the commute times to reach door to door using public transport at each end drawfs any potential of shorter running times.

IE would be better to attract passangers by emphasising the difference, extra comfort , on board dining , the travelling experience etc. In that regard the ICRs were a huge step backward over the best carriage arguably produced, the BR MK3.

Seeking minute decreases in the passangers total journey time by enhancing at considerable cost , a small section of the time delay is just nonsensical

The current rail strategy is simply wrong IMHO

Victor · 07-01-2016 8:24pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Seeking minute decreases in the passangers total journey time

No, people are seeking material decreases in journey times. It means things like trains leaving on time (trains have often left Cork 5-7 minutes late for no obvious reason), removing individual speed restrictions (often a short bridge that imposes a speed limit for several miles), removing pathing conflicts on single-track sections, having appropriate stop patterns and appropriately-timed and meaningful connections.

Running at 250 km/h probably isn't needed, but 160km/h for most of the journey is eminently possible for InterCity.

Not much use crying over Mark 3s, because they are all gone.

marmurr1916 · 08-01-2016 1:45am

Victor wrote: »

No, people are seeking material decreases in journey times. It means things like trains leaving on time (trains have often left Cork 5-7 minutes late for no obvious reason), removing individual speed restrictions (often a short bridge that imposes a speed limit for several miles), removing pathing conflicts on single-track sections, having appropriate stop patterns and appropriately-timed and meaningful connections.

Running at 250 km/h probably isn't needed, but 160km/h for most of the journey is eminently possible for InterCity.

Not much use crying over Mark 3s, because they are all gone.

What is the distance by rail between Cork and Dublin?

Victor · 08-01-2016 2:14am

marmurr1916 wrote: »

What is the distance by rail between Cork and Dublin?

165.5 miles (266 km) Heuston to Cork Kent. A little bit more to the respective city centres.

marmurr1916 · 08-01-2016 2:59am

Victor wrote: »

165.5 miles (266 km) Heuston to Cork Kent. A little bit more to the respective city centres.

So you'd need to run a train at an average speed of 177 km/h to get from station to station in 90 minutes, plus you need to realistically add about 30 minutes for the city centre to city centre journey times to allow for the time it takes to transfer from the train to the Luas and then travel into the centre of Dublin, and the time it takes to get from the station into Cork city centre, a good 10 - 15 minutes walk, maybe longer if you've got heavy luggage.

As of now though, the entire train journey takes about 3 hours, not much faster than doing it by car, maybe slower if you drive at quiet times and don't hit too much traffic in Cork and Dublin.

I said it years ago here that motorways would slowly kill off trains unless train journey times were significantly improved.

Carawaystick · 08-01-2016 1:07pm

Irish rail say you've to turn up 20 mins for a reserved seat in Heuston too.

cgcsb · 08-01-2016 1:10pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

As of now though, the entire train journey takes about 3 hours, not much faster than doing it by car, maybe slower if you drive at quiet times and don't hit too much traffic in Cork and Dublin.

The Express Cork-Dublin takes 2 hours 15 mins with no stops. At Present work on the line between Hazelhatch and Portlaoise is expected to knock 15 mins off the journey when complete this in November bringing the express down to 2 hours, you really would not beat that in a car. The upgrade would also see 15 mins knocked off Dublin-Limerick which would see some Dublin-Limerick journeys take as little as 100 minutes. Exciting times.

marmurr1916 · 08-01-2016 10:27pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The Express Cork-Dublin takes 2 hours 15 mins with no stops. At Present work on the line between Hazelhatch and Portlaoise is expected to knock 15 mins off the journey when complete this in November bringing the express down to 2 hours, you really would not beat that in a car. The upgrade would also see 15 mins knocked off Dublin-Limerick which would see some Dublin-Limerick journeys take as little as 100 minutes. Exciting times.

So Cork city centre to Dublin city centre will take about 2.5 hours even with the improvements and if you take the Express service? Not really worth the price of a train ticket to save 30 minutes, and that's without factoring in the extra flexibility that you have if you drive.

Sam Russell · 08-01-2016 11:10pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

So Cork city centre to Dublin city centre will take about 2.5 hours even with the improvements and if you take the Express service? Not really worth the price of a train ticket to save 30 minutes, and that's without factoring in the extra flexibility that you have if you drive.

Like the ability to park in the city centre, if you can find any.

Markcheese · 09-01-2016 12:00am

marmurr1916 wrote:

So Cork city centre to Dublin city centre will take about 2.5 hours even with the improvements and if you take the Express service? Not really worth the price of a train ticket to save 30 minutes, and that's without factoring in the extra flexibility that you have if you drive.

The reason people take the train isnt for high speed (yes it does have to be reasonably competitive) ,its for comfort - its not having to drive, being able to work or read (or sleep ), probably not worth doing if you've got to head to some industrial estate way out of the centre...

spacetweek · 10-01-2016 12:17am

marmurr1916 wrote: »

So Cork city centre to Dublin city centre will take about 2.5 hours even with the improvements and if you take the Express service? Not really worth the price of a train ticket to save 30 minutes, and that's without factoring in the extra flexibility that you have if you drive.

It's 2h soon not 2.5h and you're assuming people have a car, or that they have a car and want to sit in it without being able to walk around for 2.5 hours, and that they can afford the petrol etc.

10-01-2016 1:09am

Markcheese wrote: »

The reason people take the train isnt for high speed (yes it does have to be reasonably competitive) ,its for comfort - its not having to drive, being able to work or read (or sleep ), probably not worth doing if you've got to head to some industrial estate way out of the centre...

Yes, let the train take the strain!

cgcsb · 11-01-2016 12:27am

marmurr1916 wrote: »

So Cork city centre to Dublin city centre will take about 2.5 hours even with the improvements and if you take the Express service? Not really worth the price of a train ticket to save 30 minutes, and that's without factoring in the extra flexibility that you have if you drive.

Its a popular service so obviously most disagree. Its also a 3 hour drive btw.

guylikeme · 11-01-2016 9:41am

cgcsb wrote: »

Its a popular service so obviously most disagree. Its also a 3 hour drive btw.

Do that many people start AND end their journey at the city centre points though? Most are out of town and get onto the motorway

OR

have to make their way into the station in the first place, adding overhead to their journey in time and cost.

Car almost always trumps for time and price, especially if >1 travelling.Advantages of working on laptop on train but that assumes a non-packed train and the workers office being near the endpoint.

cgcsb · 11-01-2016 1:21pm

guylikeme wrote: »

Do that many people start AND end their journey at the city centre points though? Most are out of town and get onto the motorway

OR

have to make their way into the station in the first place, adding overhead to their journey in time and cost.

Car almost always trumps for time and price, especially if >1 travelling.Advantages of working on laptop on train but that assumes a non-packed train and the workers office being near the endpoint.

which is why work is being done to improve the speed. I doubt that most intercity journeys are suburb to suburb though. Most of Dublin's offices are centrally located.

marmurr1916 · 13-01-2016 1:56am

spacetweek wrote: »

It's 2h soon not 2.5h and you're assuming people have a car, or that they have a car and want to sit in it without being able to walk around for 2.5 hours, and that they can afford the petrol etc.

I was told a couple of days ago that Cork Kent to Heuston would be 2 hours. I'm not referring to that journey, I'm referring to the journey between the centre of Cork city (a good 10 - 15 minutes walk from the train station in Cork) and Dublin city centre, a good 15 minutes journey from Heuston by Luas, if you take into account the time needed to transfer from the train to the Luas.

And yeah, I'm comparing journeys by car with journeys by train - what of it?

I doubt that most people who can't afford to own and run a car would be able to afford regular train journeys from Cork to Dublin, unless they're pensioners or disabled, in which case IE gets peanuts.

marmurr1916 · 13-01-2016 1:59am

cgcsb wrote: »

Its a popular service so obviously most disagree. Its also a 3 hour drive btw.

Most disagree? Most journeys between Cork and Dublin are made by train? Got figures for that?

cgcsb · 13-01-2016 11:37am

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Most disagree? Most journeys between Cork and Dublin are made by train? Got figures for that?

Aecom Consultants reckoned in 2011 that Irish Rail had about 40% of the market for Dublin-Cork journeys, that was at a time when a typical Heuston-Kent journey took 2h50 and there was no express service. Now you can see on the ground how busy the trains are especially the express. I'd be shocked if that 40% hadn't increased significantly now that we have hourly trains, averaging 2h30 with a 2h15 express and a 15 min reduction on the way.

So clearly a large proportion of people, likely a majority of people, chose rail for Dublin-Cork journeys.

LXFlyer · 13-01-2016 3:54pm

To be fair about this, the train will suit some people, and not suit others.

But it is fair to say that there is a reasonably large market for travelling to/from Dublin City Centre which the train will serve, while at the same time the out of town business market is probably best served by road.

I think that it is important to point out that the work being carried out is at a relatively low cost (€10m in 2015), and is not megabucks.

It will deliver journey time improvements for all routes out of Heuston, and not just Cork. Trains to/from Galway, Mayo, Limerick, Kerry and Waterford will all see journey time reductions when this work is finished.

BoatMad wrote: »

It makes no sense to increase running speeds on the Dublin to cork. Firstly you have fixed station dwell times. You create pathing difficulties for slower trains and you exacerbate the congestion on approaches to Hueston.

Simply seeking faster running times over comparatively short sections is a issuing of declining returns. Today the commute times to reach door to door using public transport at each end drawfs any potential of shorter running times.

IE would be better to attract passangers by emphasising the difference, extra comfort , on board dining , the travelling experience etc. In that regard the ICRs were a huge step backward over the best carriage arguably produced, the BR MK3.

Seeking minute decreases in the passangers total journey time by enhancing at considerable cost , a small section of the time delay is just nonsensical

The current rail strategy is simply wrong IMHO

I have to say that this is nonsense. There is ample room for accelerating journey times on the route out of Heuston - there is a four track section from Hazelhatch to Inchicore that is nowhere near capacity, and has more than enough room for increased use of the overtaking facilities that it allows.

The timetable would need a recast, but there is plenty of scope for accelerating longer distance trains, while not impacting on the commuter services on the inner sections. These services are operated by ICRs which can also avail of line speed increases.

The current modest investment will see cuts of up to 15 minutes when the work is completed either later this year or early 2017 - that is a significant improvement from a low cost.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I doubt that most people who can't afford to own and run a car would be able to afford regular train journeys from Cork to Dublin, unless they're pensioners or disabled, in which case IE gets peanuts.

While the walk-up fares are high, and reflect government policy of shifting more of the cost of the railways onto the user, there are advance fares available online from €14.99 each way - that's hardly expensive surely?

Stephen15 · 13-01-2016 10:08pm

A more economical option would be to electrify the dublin to Cork and dublin to Belfast line and run pendolinos (high speed train can run on ordinary electrified lines) on it. Still wouldnt be cheap mind you.

14-01-2016 7:43am

Tilting trains don't have to be powered by overhead lines, they could use the same type of diesel-electric drive that all the other trains use.

Carawaystick · 14-01-2016 9:47am

Maybe if the intercity services from Mallow to Cork didn't take 20% longer than commuter services, it might help too

LXFlyer · 14-01-2016 10:24am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Maybe if the intercity services from Mallow to Cork didn't take 20% longer than commuter services, it might help too

The local services take 25 minutes to travel from Mallow to Cork.

The Intercity services are timed to take 28-30 minutes. Any Intercity train operator in the world will build some resilience into their timetable to allow for unexpected delays en route.

I don't think 3-5 minutes recovery time is particularly excessive over the distance between Dublin & Cork.

Without it you risk having a timetable with no resilience whatsoever, and that is not a good idea.

Carawaystick · 14-01-2016 1:59pm

Why not build in catchup time between the arrival at the destination station, and the return departure?

Building the time into each train running time is like (but not as bad as ) Ryanair's timetable padding;

It's 21 mins IC to Mallow from Cork, so it's more like 9 mins padding

LXFlyer · 14-01-2016 2:15pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why not build in catchup time between the arrival at the destination station, and the return departure?

Building the time into each train running time is like (but not as bad as ) Ryanair's timetable padding;

It's 21 mins IC to Mallow from Cork, so it's more like 9 mins padding

Ok to put it in simple English - it is far better to offer passengers a timetabled arrival time that is likely to be achieved than one that could be missed on a regular basis.

That's the whole point of recovery time. Offer a reliable schedule that can be achieved, while allowing for both unforeseen delays and temporary speed restrictions that may be encountered en route.

Building it into the dwell time at the destination station is pointless from a passenger perspective - all they would see is late trains any time that temporary speed restrictions have to be implemented.

Building recovery time into schedules is standard practice across all transport operators.

funnyname · 16-01-2016 12:21am

Is the 4 tracking the last of the big wins for timetable reductions until major money is required to be spent to bring down journey times even further?

KCAccidental · 16-01-2016 3:52am

diesel pendolinos would be great in the future alright!

funnyname · 16-01-2016 9:55pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

diesel pendolinos would be great in the future alright!

How much faster would these be compared to the existing diesel trains?

16-01-2016 11:04pm

The Pendolino tilting trains used on the west coast line in the UK have a top speed of 140mph but is limited to 125 by track conditions.

LXFlyer · 17-01-2016 12:50am

funnyname wrote: »

Is the 4 tracking the last of the big wins for timetable reductions until major money is required to be spent to bring down journey times even further?

The ballast cleaning work will shave up to 15 minutes off the journey times, bringing the fastest train down to 2 hours, and others typically 2 hours 15-20 minutes depending upon the number of stops.

Further work involving renewing level crossings and bridges and other signalling works will result in other journey time improvements which might get it down another 5-10 minutes to 1 hour 50 / 1 hour 55 mins.

That's about as fast as it's going to get.

monument · 17-01-2016 12:47pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

diesel pendolinos would be great in the future alright!

No they would not. Using trains powered by overhead wires (and/or batteries) is a great potential area to reduce carbon emissions in transport and not get fined so much. Fines for breaking EU targets could be in the billions.

17-01-2016 1:34pm

monument wrote: »

No they would not. Using trains powered by overhead wires (and/or batteries) is a great potential area to reduce carbon emissions in transport and not get fined so much. Fines for breaking EU targets could be in the billions.

Emissions from trains is but a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

BonkeyDonker · 17-01-2016 3:22pm

monument wrote: »

No they would not. Using trains powered by overhead wires (and/or batteries) is a great potential area to reduce carbon emissions in transport and not get fined so much. Fines for breaking EU targets could be in the billions.

Deleted User wrote: »

Emissions from trains is but a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

the cost to electrify the whole line and buy a new fleet would be far greater than any fine, especially if you look at the emissions saving from the the switch, which in the greater scheme of things would be minimal.

Sam Russell · 17-01-2016 3:30pm

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

the cost to electrify the whole line and buy a new fleet would be far greater than any fine,.

But we would have a nice shiny train set and fast Cork/Dublin transit.

KCAccidental · 17-01-2016 4:42pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

But we would have a nice shiny train set and fast Cork/Dublin transit.

which would be achieved with diesel Pendolinos though

munchkin_utd · 20-01-2016 3:36pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

which would be achieved with diesel Pendolinos though

deutsche bahn have a heap of diesel tilting ICE trains up for grabs at the end of the year should CIE want them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_TD

The max speed is 200kmh so would fit the bill

Theres plenty of other things that mean it would be an expensive thing to do, but the trains are there and will otherwise be scrapped.

purplepanda · 21-01-2016 3:18pm

According to that Wiki article DSB declined the ICE offer, with high operating & fuel costs, plus modernisation & refurbishment needed. :eek:

Would IE risk buying such units when other operators have declined? :pac:

I've actually seen these units in operation,last summer on the DB local services Lubeck- Fenmarn. They look sleek & modern but it seems appearances can be deceptive!

21-01-2016 7:42pm

purplepanda wrote: »

According to that Wiki article DSB declined the ICE offer, with high operating & fuel costs, plus modernisation & refurbishment needed. :eek:

Would IE risk buying such units when other operators have declined? :pac:

I've actually seen these units in operation,last summer on the DB local services Lubeck- Fenmarn. They look sleek & modern but it seems appearances can be deceptive!

Don't forget that they'll have to change the bogies as well (different gauge).

Stephen15 · 21-01-2016 8:50pm

purplepanda wrote: »

According to that Wiki article DSB declined the ICE offer, with high operating & fuel costs, plus modernisation & refurbishment needed. :eek:

Would IE risk buying such units when other operators have declined? :pac:

I've actually seen these units in operation,last summer on the DB local services Lubeck- Fenmarn. They look sleek & modern but it seems appearances can be deceptive!

As we already know with the infamous 82k dart class ðŸ˜‚

purplepanda · 22-01-2016 7:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't forget that they'll have to change the bogies as well (different gauge).

Maybe IE or NIR have some spare bogies lying around?

From an engineering point of view it would be interesting to know how complicated converting a bogie to a different gauge would be. It can't just be straightforward replacing the axle with another of a different size gauge can it? :pac:

There must be some other mechanical adjustments related to torque & acceleration & speed when using different gauges?

Victor · 22-01-2016 8:16pm

purplepanda wrote: »

From an engineering point of view it would be interesting to know how complicated converting a bogie to a different gauge would be. It can't just be straightforward replacing the axle with another of a different size gauge can it? :pac:

You simply swap the whole bogie.

Sam Russell · 22-01-2016 8:47pm

They do it in Australia all the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogie_exchange

BonkeyDonker · 23-01-2016 2:18pm

purplepanda wrote: »

Maybe IE or NIR have some spare bogies lying around?

From an engineering point of view it would be interesting to know how complicated converting a bogie to a different gauge would be. It can't just be straightforward replacing the axle with another of a different size gauge can it? :pac:

There must be some other mechanical adjustments related to torque & acceleration & speed when using different gauges?

Victor wrote: »

You simply swap the whole bogie.

Sam Russell wrote: »

They do it in Australia all the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogie_exchange

Would it be as straight forward for a tilting train though?

Victor · 23-01-2016 2:52pm

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

Would it be as straight forward for a tilting train though?

I can't see it as being a simple thing that would be done willy-nilly and without due care and analysis. If nothing else, the performance of the train on a different gauge would need to be analysed. Sure, a wider gauge usually means a more stable train, but I imagine there can be unintended consequences, e.g when the train tilts, is the carriage superstructure at risk of striking lineside equipment / structures, because the Irish network hasn't been designed to allow for tilting trains? Is the existing cross-slope on Irish track acceptable? And so on.

In the context we are talking about, the change from one gauge to the other is something that will only be happening once, seeing as the Irish system only has one gauge.

One imagines that tilting trains can have their bogies swapped, just like other trains have bogies swapped from time to time. It would seem daft if tilting trains can't have their bogies changed. If this was the case, you would end up scrapping at €2-3 million carriage for the sake of a fracture in one part.

purplepanda · 23-01-2016 4:23pm

Victor wrote: »

You simply swap the whole bogie.

That's if IE have spare bogies that they could use & adapt.

If not, it would mean having to have the DB ICE bogies converted run on Irish gauge.

That was the exact question I was trying to ask, how easy is it to convert or rebuild a bogie from standard to Irish gauge. Apologies for the confusing question!

High speed rail Cork - Dublin

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