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12 Reported Murdered at Charlie Hebdo by Islamists

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    #332
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    And from another point of view...

    10615439_1047805538578206_575474438269748624_n.jpg?oh=174a3dd740a048c1fa9dde3c73af2e8b&oe=5562C99A


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    #333
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Shrap wrote: »
    Nope. Seems they were making a point of there being no difference bar the colour of their ties though. "I do not like the colour of your tie". They have been deliberately drawn to look the same to make this point.

    Oh FFS. Talk about clutching at straws. It's the way Charb drew everyone.
    I don't take that particular cartoon as a good example of your point, sorry.

    You have asserted that an (unspecified) cartoon is racist, but provided no evidence of this whatsoever - I'm not the one in need of proving a point, you are.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #334
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Oh FFS. Talk about clutching at straws. It's the way Charb drew everyone.

    You have asserted that an (unspecified) cartoon is racist, but provided no evidence of this whatsoever - I'm not the one in need of proving a point, you are.

    Alright! Keep your hair on. Guess I don't have a point, couldn't be arsed remembering what my point was or dislike getting sh1tty with people I like. One of those. So well done, you have it all sussed.


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    #335
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I get what you're saying. It's just that the critiquing of islam = islamophobia = racism thing gets on my nerves.

    The term 'racism' is going to become meaningless if it is used to describe anything mildly critical of someone who may happen to be of different race to the critic. Like antibiotics, it needs to be reserved for where it's most needed if it's going to remain effective.

    By all means call someone out if they are - Dieudonne is undoubtedly a racist as he says hateful things about jews as a people. I can criticise islam or catholicism until the cows come home, and with plenty of evidence in scriptures and in the practical application of these religions to back it up but this isn't racist, muslims and catholics are of all races.

    Immigration is of course a hot issue in France and many other places, I wouldn't agree with using the religion of immigrants as a proxy to attack them. But where adherents of a religion are looking for secular society to change to accommodate their view, whether to avoid 'offence' or more extensive changes as Selim looked for in the Irish educational system, we are absolutely within our rights to strongly question this and to resist the encroachment of a religion into what should be the secular sphere. Whether this happens in the form of words or cartoons shouldn't matter, imho.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #336
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Ah, here we go. Strongman Chechen president, and prominent Putin friend, Ramzan Kadyrov, organized a mass rally in Chechnya today to "protest" the Charlie Hebdo cartoons. During his speech, he managed to start crying while threatening that "we" are ready to die to protect the honor of the religion.

    State-controlled media in Russia reported "about one million" people showed up (almost 80% of the population of Chechnya), while the Moscow Times reported that "Reuters witnesses put the number at several hundred thousand". It's certainly the smallest crowd of one million I've ever seen.

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/tens-of-thousands-rally-against-immoral-charlie-hebdo-in-chechnya/514544.html
    http://rt.com/news/224051-russia-chechen-rally-1mln/


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    #337
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    smacl wrote: »
    And yet it is, and has been since 1989

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0019/
    And it is widely acknowledged as being a major hypocrisy as well as being incredibly stupid by anyone with a brain. Most kids learnt this from Southpark 15 years ago but I guess a lot of the same people who advocate hate crime law probably think Southpark is offensive and whatnot.





    As for history and religion, I think one of the biggest problems that organised religion suffers from is inherited dogma that instructs its followers to discriminate and vilify those who are outside of that faith. So incitement to hatred is actually part of many social traditions as a result. I'm glad to be part of a society that rejects this behaviour as unacceptable.
    I'm not in favour of the act of 'incitement to hatred' however you or some politician wants to define it, but I would never limit or restrict a person's right to express it.
    smacl wrote: »
    You seem to be confusing atheism with antitheism. I'm an atheist, and an ardent secularist, but not antitheist insofar that I would like to see the active repression of freedom of religious expression. To do so is removing the exact freedom you seem to hold dear.
    You've confused my main argument. I will never limit or restrict a person's right to freedom of expression (religious or otherwise), but I do hope for an end to religious expression some day. And when the day comes, which I hope it will, if there is one last religious person on earth, it is his or her rights to expression which should be protected the most. To be an atheist without also being antitheist in a country with blasphemy law and with the religious history and culture of Ireland is akin to not voting in an election and being surprised or annoyed when the party elected bring in their changes and policies. It has become almost taboo now to actively argue for the extinction of religion and instead to simply allow it to fester like a disease and make sure to protect the sensitivities of its followers. Bullsh*t.




    I think your metaphor of a call to arms is misplaced in the extreme, as a war is exactly what this is not and should never become.
    A war is exactly what is already happening. An attack was made clearly on the right to freedom of expression which has sparked great debate on whether we should offend religious sensitivities and risk the effects it may have on muslim people by publishing satirical cartoons of muhammad. It was a strategic attack by a minority of extremists but it has lead to many western people to question the morality and responsibility of freedom of expression. That is dangerous in the extreme.


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    #338
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    K4t wrote: »
    And it is widely acknowledged as being a major hypocrisy as well as being incredibly stupid by anyone with a brain.

    References please, and suggesting that anyone who supports this legislation is both an ad hominem argument and undermines the credibility of anything else you say,
    Most kids learnt this from Southpark 15 years ago but I guess a lot of the same people who advocate hate crime law probably think Southpark is offensive and whatnot.

    Love the southpark movie, but haven't watched the series in a while. Common theme seems to be to lampoon racism, homophobia, etc.. which is also basically taking a dig at various forms of hatefulness.
    To be an atheist without also being antitheist in a country with blasphemy law and with the religious history and culture of Ireland is akin to not voting in an election and being surprised or annoyed when the party elected bring in their changes and policies. It has become almost taboo now to actively argue for the extinction of religion and instead to simply allow it to fester like a disease and make sure to protect the sensitivities of its followers. Bullsh*t.

    You seem to struggle with the notion of secularism. Let people believe what they want and express themselves however they want, while removing all influences of religion from the running of the state. I don't care if people pray to Jesus, watch I'm a celebrity, get me out of here , or have a bondage dungeon in their basement, so long as they're not pressuring me or anyone else to get involved with it.
    A war is exactly what is already happening. An attack was made clearly on the right to freedom of expression which has sparked great debate on whether we should offend religious sensitivities and risk the effects it may have on muslim people by publishing satirical cartoons of muhammad. It was a strategic attack by a minority of extremists but it has lead to many western people to question the morality and responsibility of freedom of expression. That is dangerous in the extreme.

    A war is something which involves the majority of those involved being polarised into two or more groups on opposite sides who fight each other. Those who seek to polarise opinion, such as terrorists in this instance, would like nothing more than a larger conflict to erupt, but the vast majority reject this outright. Suggesting there is or should be a war is pandering to the terrorists and extremists, and is right up there with Bush's war on terror in terms of bright ideas.

    Anyhoo, enough blather, you have a super day!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weelryxQx48


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    #339
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Love the southpark movie, but haven't watched the series in a while. Common theme seems to be to lampoon racism, homophobia, etc.. which is also basically taking a dig at various forms of hatefulness.
    As is their right. And plenty of racists and homophones have taken digs at Southpark, as is theirs. In your world, if racism and homophobia suddenly became the norm and the accepted stance of society tomorrow, the creators of Southpark could be tried under hate crime legislation for 'taking a dig' at racism and homophobia or for hating them.


    You seem to struggle with the notion of secularism. Let people believe what they want and express themselves however they want, while removing all influences of religion from the running of the state. I don't care if people pray to Jesus, watch I'm a celebrity, get me out of here , or have a bondage dungeon in their basement, so long as they're not pressuring me or anyone else to get involved with it.
    Yes, that's fine, but the fact is we do not live in a secular society. In case you haven't noticed we had blasphemy laws written into our constitution as recently as six years ago. I have no problem with people having the right to hold religious beliefs/values (I shared them myself as a child - due to brainwashing and social conditioning albeit) but it is the active attempts to not only protect but promote religion which is unacceptable.


    A war is something which involves the majority of those involved being polarised into two or more groups on opposite sides who fight each other. Those who seek to polarise opinion, such as terrorists in this instance, would like nothing more than a larger conflict to erupt, but the vast majority reject this outright. Suggesting there is or should be a war is pandering to the terrorists and extremists, and is right up there with Bush's war on terror in terms of bright ideas.
    A war against religion is not a war against religious people. Religion can not be killed by guns or bombs but by reason and debate and satire. Religious extremists and religious leaders know this, they know this is the way in which people and humanity will prevail. You only have to look at the aftermath of Charlie Hebdo to recognise this. In our own country we had dr Selim threaten to invoke our blasphemy law while making sure to condemn the attacks, and lately we have had the pope come out with a similar twisted sentiment. We finally have an opportunity to expose this evil fantasy and we have decided to decline, to instead bow our heads and ignore it once again. We should not be ashamed for feel the need to apologise for criticism and offense of religion.


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    #340
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    K4t wrote: »
    As is their right. And plenty of racists and homophones have taken digs at Southpark, as is theirs. In your world, if racism and homophobia suddenly became the norm and the accepted stance of society tomorrow, the creators of Southpark could be tried under hate crime legislation for 'taking a dig' at racism and homophobia or for hating them.

    In our world, Southpark is on the telly most nights, and I'm not aware of anyone trying to use Irish incitement to hatred legislation to have it banned. Are you? If not this is clearly a straw man.
    Yes, that's fine, but the fact is we do not live in a secular society. In case you haven't noticed we had blasphemy laws written into our constitution as recently as six years ago. I have no problem with people having the right to hold religious beliefs/values (I shared them myself as a child - due to brainwashing and social conditioning albeit) but it is the active attempts to not only protect but promote religion which is unacceptable.

    Which is why I'm a secularist and against blasphemy laws. Still doesn't make me an antitheist. Nor do I have an issue with religions promoting themselves, just so long as it is not in our schools, or at our cost.
    A war against religion is not a war against religious people. Religion can not be killed by guns or bombs but by reason and debate and satire. Religious extremists and religious leaders know this, they know this is the way in which people and humanity will prevail. You only have to look at the aftermath of Charlie Hebdo to recognise this. In our own country we had dr Selim threaten to invoke our blasphemy law while making sure to condemn the attacks, and lately we have had the pope come out with a similar twisted sentiment. We finally have an opportunity to expose this evil fantasy and we have decided to decline, to instead bow our heads and ignore it once again. We should not be ashamed for feel the need to apologise for criticism and offense of religion.

    No problems criticising religion, but as I've already said, war is entirely the wrong metaphor to use in the present context. I'm seeing very little reason, debate or satire in your argument, merely a right wing knee jerk call to arms which helps no one.


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    #341
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Je Suis Ici Aujourd'hui - en Rue d'O'Connell.

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/01/27/je-suis-a-la-vente/

    336650.jpg


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    #342
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Anybody else praying the Islamic Cultural Centre invokes the blasphemy law against the publication?


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    #343
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Anybody else praying the Islamic Cultural Centre invokes the blasphemy law against the publication?
    The missus is down on her knees as I type.


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    #344
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    robindch wrote: »
    The missus is down on her knees as I type.
    fnar fnar...

    MrP


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    #345
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Don't suppose anyone knows if they still have any (unlikely) or are getting any more in?

    It's for a friend ;)

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #346
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Is it still appropriate or necessary to have the 'allegedly' in the thread title?

    MrP


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    #347
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,123 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Is it still appropriate or necessary to have the 'allegedly' in the thread title?
    Probably was appropriate when the thread was opened, which was within hours of the shooting, and when reports were still coming in.

    But I think at this point we can probably get off the fence on this one.


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    #348
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Title changed.


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    #349
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Is this for real?

    Police from several UK forces seek details of Charlie Hebdo readers

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/feb/10/police-several-forces-seek-details-charlie-hebdo-readers
    The Guardian wrote:
    Several British police forces have questioned newsagents in an attempt to monitor sales of a special edition of Charlie Hebdo magazine following the Paris attacks, the Guardian has learned. Officers in Wiltshire, Wales and Cheshire have approached retailers of the magazine, it has emerged, as concerns grew about why police were attempting to trace UK-based readers of the French satirical magazine.

    Wiltshire police apologised on Monday after admitting that one of its officers had asked a newsagent to hand over the names of readers who bought a special “survivors’ issue” of the magazine published after its top staff were massacred in Paris last month. The case in Corsham, Wiltshire, was thought to be an isolated incident but it has since emerged that Cheshire constabulary and Dyfed-Powys police have also approached newsagents over the sale of Charlie Hebdo.

    In at least two cases – in Wiltshire and in Presteigne, Wales – officers have requested that newsagents hand over the names of customers who bought the magazine. “This is so ridiculous as to be almost laughable. And it would be funny if it didn’t reflect a more general worrying increase in abuse of police powers in invading privacy and stifling free speech in Britain,” said Jodie Ginsberg, chief executive of free expression campaign group Index on Censorship. “Does possessing a legally published satirical magazine make people criminal suspects now? If so, I better confess that I too have a copy of Charlie Hebdo.”

    Paul Merrett, 57, the owner of a newsagent in Presteigne, Wales, said a detective and a police community support officer from Dyfed-Powys police spent half an hour asking his wife Deborah, 53, about the magazine. “They wanted to know about Charlie Hebdo. They came in unannounced and we had customers,” he said. “There were questions asking where we got the Charlie Hebdo copies from, did we know who we sold them to – which we didn’t say. We were a bit bemused because it was out of the blue.”

    “My wife said, ‘Am I in trouble?’ because she thought she was in trouble for selling them. They said, ‘No, you’re not in trouble’ but just continued with their questioning for half an hour.” Merrett added: “It was all about Charlie Hebdo. I guess they wanted names and addresses of people we sold them to, which we didn’t tell them anything like that. We sold 30 copies. “My wife was a bit worried with the questioning but she certainly wouldn’t have given any names to the police. I’m shocked they asked. They wanted to know where we got the copies from, how did we let the customers know that we had them.”

    A Dyfed-Powys police spokeswoman declined to say why officers sought the names of Charlie Hebdo readers but said: “Following the recent terrorism incidents, Dyfed Powys police have been undertaking an assessment of community tensions across the force area.

    [...]


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    #350
    Standman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    Very strange! What kind of newsagent would keep names and addresses of random customers anyhow?


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    #351
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,123 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yes, it's for real. What they are looking for, of course, is details of people with brown skin, brown eyes, black hair and funny foreign names who bought the magazine. Obviously, they'll be terrorists.


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    #352
    Carpentry
    Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭Carpentry


    anyone else think it was a hoax / islamophobes attack ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3DdtFz4zL4


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    #353
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,844 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Brown Bomber, is that you?


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    #354
    Carpentry
    Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭Carpentry


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Brown Bomber, is that you?

    No, Purple.


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    #355
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    A UK-based organization called the "Islamic Human Rights Commission" runs an annual "Islamophobia Award." This year, Charlie Hebdo was one of the international nominees:

    http://www.ihrc.org.uk/activities/press-releases/11373-press-release-uk-islamophobia-awards-2015-shortlist-released

    According to Jesus and Mo, it seems that Charlie won:

    341661.jpg


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    #356
    the_monkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭the_monkey


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Yes, it's for real. What they are looking for, of course, is details of people with brown skin, brown eyes, black hair and funny foreign names who bought the magazine. Obviously, they'll be terrorists.

    doesn't make sense, surely people who buy this magazine would be "liberals"

    Seems they are cowtowing to the Muslims here ...


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    #357
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    robindch wrote: »
    A UK-based organization called the "Islamic Human Rights Commission" runs an annual "Islamophobia Award." This year, Charlie Hebdo was one of the international nominees:

    http://www.ihrc.org.uk/activities/press-releases/11373-press-release-uk-islamophobia-awards-2015-shortlist-released

    According to Jesus and Mo, it seems that Charlie won:

    341661.jpg
    Kind of a misplaced award really... Given what happened it is hard to argue that any fear they may have had was irrational.

    MrP


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    #358
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,848 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    robindch wrote: »
    A UK-based organization called the "Islamic Human Rights Commission" runs an annual "Islamophobia Award." This year, Charlie Hebdo was one of the international..]

    How is international draw Mohammed day going?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #359
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    silverharp wrote: »
    How is international draw Mohammed day going?

    Discretely, I'd imagine.


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    #360
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Nodin wrote: »
    Discretely, I'd imagine.

    Well I prefer to draw in a continuous motion

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #361
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,848 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Jon Stewart interviewing Aayan Hirsi Ali , with commentary from Atheism-is-Unstoppable-4 on Youtube, the guy who runs the channel has done a few of these where he points out that the US media seem to give Islam a free pass.



    A Jew Defends Muslims To An Atheist

    https://vimeo.com/123248942

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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