Goverment Failure in current Weather crisis

seamus · 07-01-2010 3:42pm

opinion guy wrote: »

I have been wondering thou. Isn't it part of the council's role to keep the roads and footpaths in good nick and ice free? So by failing to do that aren't they liable to some degree for any accidents that occur ?
....
If a little old dear falls on the road because she had to go to the shop to get food - couldn't she rightlyfully sue the council ?

No, you can't sue a person or a body for not doing something unless that something was a contractual obligation. The legal term is misfeasance.

If I see someone being attacked in the middle of the street and I do nothing about it, that person cannot sue me for doing nothing. If however, I'm his bodyguard, then he can sue me for not carrying out part of my contract.

Same with County Councils - they do not have any kind of legal contract with the public to maintain the roads in this manner. Where they have been alerted to damage on a road, or where a road has been improperly laid or repaired, they are liable. But where a road becomes dangerous through environmental or other incidental conditions (such as normal wear and tear), you cannot sue.

Put simply, in order for you to be able to sue someone for negligence, you have to prove that they actually took an action which preceeded your loss. The council didn't put the snow on the road, so therefore they didn't do anything to cause the roads to become slippy.

Their inaction meant that the roads *continued* to be slippy, but that's not the same thing.

BostonB · 07-01-2010 3:42pm

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

There was no way they could grit the roads yesterday unless they did it before the snow came. Once the snow fell everybody paniced in a sky news style way. the entire city of Dublin all tried to leave their jobs around the same time. This was the time when there was snow and ice on the roads this caused traffic very slow moving traffic.

With this traffic on the roads how can anyone now get out to grit it?

We caused the problem yesterday by panicing not the government not Dublin city council not it was the peopel who were sat in traffic who caused the problem.

I don't agree. The problem was the snow fell on snow and ice that had not been cleared earlier. If they'd have gritted earlier, a bit of new snow wouldn'y have had the effect that it did. Its didn't start freezing again till 5 or 6.

I cleared a couple of drives and paths the previous night. While the new snow covered them it wasn't slippy because there was nothing underneath it.

Another problem with not clearing the roads, is that its going cause huge potholes which they won't be able to afford to fix. The Phoenix park already has lots of damage.

carveone · 07-01-2010 3:45pm

It's been quite irritating listening to people comparing the situation to other countries: "Wah, I was in Scotland and the roads were usable... etc etc.". There's quite a difference between the situation here and in colder countries. I lived in Ottawa, Canada for 4 years and saw 6 months of snow every year. You can walk on snow (assuming it's not too deep) and you can drive on snow. Hell, you can cycle on snow. I drove happily on snow roads that were not gritted and not ploughed, just packed down. I admit my car had good types and traction control but still...

The situation here is not snow, it's ice. I saw this type of weather - above 0 in the day, below at night for about 2-3 days a year in Ottawa and it always sucked, especially if it happened in the thaw where there was little snow left. A&E would suddenly fill with broken wrists and head injuries and there'd be fender benders from tailgaters. The roads would be slush city and the sidewalks would be skating rinks. People wouldn't go out at all, never mind go to work.

Personally I think the Dublin councils have been doing sterling service considering that we rarely see this type of ice lasting for a week. All they can do is clear the roads and they've been doing it really well. The media would be better served telling people how to grit the paths outside their house.

PS: "Who is to Blame!" screams the Herald this evening. Would that be God?!

mike65 · 07-01-2010 3:48pm

carveone wrote: »

PS: "Who is to Blame!" screams the Herald this evening. Would that be God?!

I blame George Monbiot.

Buford T Justice · 07-01-2010 3:49pm

Jaysis, a little bit of snow and its a weather crisis. Next thing you'll be tellin me we're in financial crisis cos the banks fecked it all up for us....

Zwillinge · 07-01-2010 3:49pm

BennyLava wrote: »

'Storm Troopers -- Government bring in the Army ice-breakers'

If only

That'd be quite cool!

carveone · 07-01-2010 3:51pm

BostonB wrote: »

I cleared a couple of drives and paths the previous night. While the new snow covered them it wasn't slippy because there was nothing underneath it.

Good job. That was the situation - snow covered the ice, slushed and refroze. I happily walked down to the shops from my place yesterday on the new snow. Once that snow got trodden down enough, it was back to dangerous slippiness.

Also: Would people for god's sake stop clearing their windscreens with water in the morning? a) You are chucking water on the ground outside your house in freezing weather creating a nice little ice pond for people to slip on. b) The clearing is temporary resulting in fogged screens once you get moving. Take the 5 mins to warm your car. c) if you use boiling water then you deserve the cracked windscreen...

Edit: and for those with cars, lift the wipers before you start the car. That way if they are iced to the windscreen (very likely) and you accidently hit the wiper button, you won't end up with stripped gears in your wiper motor.

veryangryman · 07-01-2010 3:52pm

mike65 wrote: »

I blame George Monbiot.

I blame Joe

BostonB · 07-01-2010 4:04pm

carveone wrote: »

Good job. That was the situation - snow covered the ice, slushed and refroze. I happily walked down to the shops from my place yesterday on the new snow. Once that snow got trodden down enough, it was back to dangerous slippiness.

Also: Would people for god's sake stop clearing their windscreens with water in the morning? a) You are chucking water on the ground outside your house in freezing weather creating a nice little ice pond for people to slip on. b) The clearing is temporary resulting in fogged screens once you get moving. Take the 5 mins to warm your car. c) if you use boiling water then you deserve the cracked windscreen...

Some muppet who parks on the pavement outside my house blocking it for everyone using it, has just poured loads of water over his car and driven off. That will be glass in seconds. People are so stupid.

People/shops/businesses should be made to clear the pavement outside their house.

The trick is not let it build up.

BostonB · 07-01-2010 4:08pm

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

They didn't let traffic build up, it happened it was unexpected.

So unexpected that that the entire capital city started to empty out around 3 to go home. In my office they were talking about leaving from about 11 or 12 when it first snowed.

It couldn't have been more expected to happen.

Fuhrer · 07-01-2010 4:15pm

BostonB wrote: »

Deeply embrassing that we can't manage a tiny bit of snow.

Still, at least we're better then the Polish in other ways.

L.T.D · 07-01-2010 4:16pm

Ugh

BostonB · 07-01-2010 4:28pm

carveone wrote: »

It's been quite irritating listening to people comparing the situation to other countries: "Wah, I was in Scotland and the roads were usable... etc etc.". There's quite a difference between the situation here and in colder countries. I lived in Ottawa, Canada for 4 years and saw 6 months of snow every year. You can walk on snow (assuming it's not too deep) and you can drive on snow. Hell, you can cycle on snow. I drove happily on snow roads that were not gritted and not ploughed, just packed down. I admit my car had good types and traction control but still...

The situation here is not snow, it's ice. I saw this type of weather - above 0 in the day, below at night for about 2-3 days a year in Ottawa and it always sucked, especially if it happened in the thaw where there was little snow left. A&E would suddenly fill with broken wrists and head injuries and there'd be fender benders from tailgaters. The roads would be slush city and the sidewalks would be skating rinks. People wouldn't go out at all, never mind go to work.

Personally I think the Dublin councils have been doing sterling service considering that we rarely see this type of ice lasting for a week. All they can do is clear the roads and they've been doing it really well. The media would be better served telling people how to grit the paths outside their house.

PS: "Who is to Blame!" screams the Herald this evening. Would that be God?!

I take your point about it being ice and not snow. That is unusally. But I don't agree with the councils. I've seen almost no one out working to clear anything, and I've seen no evidence of it either. Theres been hardly any gritting compared to other years.

The expection to that is I have seen them gritting one side a few major roads. Which is just weird.

Theta · 07-01-2010 4:29pm

BostonB wrote: »

I cleared a couple of drives and paths the previous night. While the new snow covered them it wasn't slippy because there was nothing underneath it.

I did the same and it was back to being Ice after the snow fell within an hour id say.

And it is just a bit of bad weather get on with it will you! You would swear it was -50 and people were dying in the streets.

They grit what they can when they can. No point in wasting grit in housing estates that should be used on main roads. All of the main roads around me have been gritted and are fine to drive on!

And someone saying getting the army out to grit the roads is having a laugh. They dont have gritting trucks and its not just sand they are spreading its a mix of rock salt and sand so its not like they can just load up with bags from your local builders providers and throw them off the back of the truck.

BostonB · 07-01-2010 4:33pm

The army did it in the past. I remember them being out in bad snow. They helped out emergency services too. Sand would be better than nothing. at the moment people are getting around with no help at all.

The point is you'd only be clearing one layer the next time. Not a couple of layers built up. Mines still walkable anyway and its -5 or something outside.

G86 · 07-01-2010 4:41pm

Well they've just declared a national emergency, so hopefully that will get the defence forces out and on to clearing up the roads a bit.

carveone · 07-01-2010 4:42pm

BostonB wrote: »

I take your point about it being ice and not snow. That is unusally. But I don't agree with the councils. I've seen almost no one out working to clear anything, and I've seen no evidence of it either. Theres been hardly any gritting compared to other years.

The expection to that is I have seen them gritting one side a few major roads. Which is just weird.

I'll admit, I've been taking their word for it given that I don't have a car at the moment. They've been doing it at night and certainly the roads appear gritted in the morning... Looks like they then slush up and freeze over making the gritting less effective.

I'm lucky to be near a Dart station and I believe the Luas lines are probably working grand too.

Theta · 07-01-2010 4:43pm

BostonB wrote: »

The army did it in the past. I remember them being out in bad snow. They helped out emergency services too. Sand would be better than nothing. at the moment people are getting around with no help at all.

The point is you'd only be clearing one layer the next time. Not a couple of layers built up. Mines still walkable anyway and its -5 or something outside.

Yeah they were prob digging out snow this is ice and like I said they dont have gritters so they cant spread it anyway!

Mossy Monk · 07-01-2010 5:21pm

G86 wrote: »

Well they've just declared a national emergency

For God's sake.

Ciaran500 · 07-01-2010 5:28pm

G86 wrote: »

Well they've just declared a national emergency, so hopefully that will get the defence forces out and on to clearing up the roads a bit.

Any source on that? RTE isn't reporting it.

Dyr · 07-01-2010 5:37pm

Cowan is probably using the snow emergency to suspend the dail, bring back rationing, silence the media etc. Old Fianna Fail trick

mikom · 07-01-2010 5:47pm

G86 wrote: »

Well they've just declared a national emergency

Cowens breakfast roll was late this morning apparently.......

RATM · 07-01-2010 6:34pm

pookie82 wrote: »

It's utterly pointless for smug foreigners to titter at our incompetence to deal with an inch of snow. Why should we be prepared for it? It happens about once every twenty years. Perfectly reasonable that we would be scared to use the roads etc when we don't have snow tyres or ploughs in place to get on with it. It really pisses me off when foreigners who are used to snow for six months of the year and whose countries are well equipped to deal with it because they have to every year laugh at us.

Thats flawed logic. Just because something does not happen that often does not mean you shouldn't prepare for it. Nuclear accidents happen far less than snow yet according to the National Emergency Board we are prepared for a nuclear accident.
Flooding happens here far more frequently than snow yet the recent events show that we were not prepared for it.

In the words of the wise Benjamin Franklin 'Failure to plan is to plan for failure'. Which pretty much sums up the performance of our government on this and many other issues.

WoollyRedHat · 07-01-2010 6:38pm

Surely everybody is in agreement that once again our Government has made a shambles of a situation that could have been dealt with very quickly?
That is after all the main point in the op.

Somebody said planning should have been done by people in forseeing the snow/ice. What about the Governement then? Should they not be expected to plan as well? Or has everyone come to the forgone conclusion that the Government of Ireland are useless and a lost cause?

Mike 1972 · 07-01-2010 6:56pm

BostonB wrote: »

People/shops/businesses should be made to clear the pavement outside their house. .

Including disabled/elderly/tenants ("its the landlords job")/landlords ("its the tenants job")/apartment dwellers ("its the bloke downstairs job")/People away from home/unoccupied houses……………?

BostonB · 07-01-2010 8:29pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Including disabled/elderly/tenants ("its the landlords job")/landlords ("its the tenants job")/apartment dwellers ("its the bloke downstairs job")/People away from home/unoccupied houses……………?

Oddball: Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065938/quotes

Big Joe wouldn't be happy with you're can't do attidue Mike.

Big Joe: Now when I come back, I want that farmhouse not only clean but completely decorated. Do you understand that?

BostonB · 07-01-2010 8:31pm

carveone wrote: »

I'll admit, I've been taking their word for it given that I don't have a car at the moment. They've been doing it at night and certainly the roads appear gritted in the morning... Looks like they then slush up and freeze over making the gritting less effective.....

Not everwheres the same. Looks like Norway around here.

I'm sure they are gritting in places. But they did it too late, and too little.

BostonB · 07-01-2010 8:33pm

Just out of interest.

In parts of the world the public is expected to help keep the streets clear of snow. In Minneapolis, in the US, it's your legal duty.
"Keeping our sidewalks free of ice and snow is the neighbourly thing to do, and it's the law... please do your part," says the local authority's website.
The rules are strict. Snow must be removed from pavements outside homes within 24 hours of snowfall ending. However, they are given free "sidewalk sand" to do the job.
If the public works department gets a complaint or discovers that a pavement is not properly cleared, it gives the property owner a chance to do it. If the pavement has still not been cleared upon re-inspection, city crews will do the job and the home owner will be sent the bill.
The US city of Boston is equally tough. The mayor's website states people have a personal responsibility to remove snow from "the full paved width of the sidewalk or a minimum of 42 inches wide". Fines can reach as much as $250 (£154) for each day the snow is left.
Legal risk
There are also strict regulations in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Most German towns have a "street cleaning statute". Snow-shovelling requirements are spelled out in detail, even down to the minimum width of the cleared area and the time during which you must keep the snow cleared.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8443745.stm

junkyard · 07-01-2010 8:50pm

BostonB wrote: »

Just out of interest.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8443745.stm

So it's our fault now, wow, that took some spin-doctoring.......:rolleyes:

BostonB · 07-01-2010 9:19pm

junkyard wrote: »

So it's our fault now, wow, that took some spin-doctoring.......:rolleyes:

I don't get you. How is it spin? What is our fault? Its fact of life in other countries.

Mike 1972 · 07-01-2010 10:38pm

G86 wrote: »

Well they've just declared a national emergency

Suspension of constitution and martial law to follow ?

Incidentally the USA has been in a continuos state of Emergency since 1933.

bonzos · 07-01-2010 10:47pm

people need to calm down a bit,the snow will be gone in a few day and everything will be back to normal...the last thing we need now is to encourage the gov to set up another quango or task group to look into this which will end up sending a gang of TD's on "fact finding missions:rolleyes:"all over the world on first class flights....im sure john o donoghue is well overdue a holiday soon at the taxpayers expense!

Jev/N · 07-01-2010 11:00pm

The problem actually seems to be the lack of snow, in most areas there is only a small bit which is then freezing and turning to black ice. If we had more than the circa. 2.5cm we've had (in Dublin at least), the paths would be easier to walk, roads easier to drive on etc. etc.

Also, you can't just start saying typical fúcking Ireland and it's government, look at a similar situation over in the UK!

BostonB · 07-01-2010 11:29pm

Jev/N wrote: »

...Also, you can't just start saying typical fúcking Ireland and it's government, look at a similar situation over in the UK!

If fairness I think they got much worse weather there...

Ickle Magoo · 07-01-2010 11:50pm

carveone wrote: »

"Wah, I was in Scotland and the roads were usable... etc etc.". There's quite a difference between the situation here and in colder countries.

Wah, it's minus 16 there at the moment so plenty of ice...roads still drivable, wah, wah, wah. There is a snow plough passing down roads followed by gritters 24/7 - that's why. Wah, wah.

In fairness, Scotland gets snow most years and so she has fleets of snow ploughs and gritters and a well practised team to deal with it. The UK government have now hauled together a national task force to make sure everyone has enough grit and equipment and they are struggling. I imagine Ireland has view resources and little experience of snow and ice to fall back on, in saying that - it's mostly common sense and the weather forecasters did their jobs some time ago.

BostonB · 07-01-2010 11:55pm

Are ye seriously comparing Dublin with Scotland...

Ickle Magoo · 07-01-2010 11:57pm

Did ye see the quote in my post?!

Run_to_da_hills · 08-01-2010 12:35am

Ireland is not the only country running short on salt.

Where dose all this salt come from?

These leaders were so obsessed with saving the world from global warming that they completely forgot to plan for the fu*ing winter

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Big-Freeze-UKs-Biggest-Salt-Mine-Says-Only-Few-Days-Supply-Left/Article/201001115516549?lpos=UK_News_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15516549_Big_Freeze%3A_UKs_Biggest_Salt_Mine_Says_Only_Few_Days_Supply_Left

thethedev · 08-01-2010 12:43am

Im in Scotland at the moment and even here people are complaining about the councils in ability. Its not to good here either, alright its worse than Ireland. But to be fair they're used to dealing with this type of thing and even then they are struggling.

ascanbe · 08-01-2010 1:21am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVWdf1Ky2bI

opinion guy · 08-01-2010 1:28am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Where dose all this salt come from?

Spain apparently. Oh how I wish i had bought some shares in the salt industry :rolleyes:

Was just out driving (FUN by the way:D)

Why in Gods name did the buses have to stop at 8 today. I was out driving just now and its not that bad and I ahve a light hatchback

BostonB · 08-01-2010 2:30am

Mr PLow LOL.

Run_to_da_hills · 08-01-2010 2:48am

opinion guy wrote: »

Spain apparently. Oh how I wish i had bought some shares in the salt industry :rolleyes:

It will be Summer before that gets here.

The_Kew_Tour · 08-01-2010 2:50am

the government fail on everything why should we be surprised

Jev/N · 08-01-2010 4:50am

BostonB wrote: »

If fairness I think they got much worse weather there...

Not a huge difference though in terms usage of salt and grit; we've had the cold snowy weather for the same duration as they have although not as severe

Goverment Failure in current Weather crisis

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