Plan to make Dublin city centre car free

Flukey · 07-05-2008 12:11am

I think it is a ridiculous idea, and I don't even drive. They should be using positive measures to ease traffic congestion, not negative ones. All this will do is shift the bottleneck. They should be trying to encourage people not to use their cars, not discourage them. If they put in the proper public transport, people wouldn't be bringing in their cars as much. Before any if you say it, it could be done without having to ban cars first. You don't have to do one before the other. A bit of regional development, so that not as many people need to go into Dublin at all, would also help.

Something like those measures rather than car bans and congestion charges, would be far better. No matter what is done there will always be a lot of people needing to bring in their cars and go through that part of the city for various reasons, so public transport isn't always practical for them. This idea will do nothing to help them either, just inconvenience them. We need positive measures, not negative ones to get people to change while also leaving the freedom for others who need to use their cars to still be able to do so, on any main street.

If this idea is so brilliant, why not ban cars from every single road in the country? We'd wipe out traffic jams, road deaths, drink driving and lots of other problems all in one go. Genius!

monument · 07-05-2008 1:42am

Let's look at some of the facts reported by the Irish Times, the Sunday Business Post and RTE...

- There is no city centre car ban planned, there are restrictions planned

- This was not "floated" by one TD

- The plans hinges on 350 extra buses being provided

- Central to the plan is improving bus traffic flows, giving buses priority

- This grew out of what was "initially intended to be for the duration of construction works for the Metro"... remember, the areas cover what will be construction areas for the Metro North, and possibly two Luas lines

- It also has the support of the Minister for the Environment John Gormley, and the Dublin Chamber of Commerce

- These proposals were actual first reported by the Times earlier this year in March and on Sunday (in at least the Sunday Business Post) -- the radio and newspaper reports on Monday and Sunday were pretty much repeating details.

Flukey wrote: »

...They should be using positive measures to ease traffic congestion, not negative ones....

Depending on you viewpoint anything can be positive or negative.

But can you really say that this is not positive for public transport users, pedestrians and cyclists?

And here's some more from the Sunday Business Post...

The bus strategy, which was passed by the 15-member committee last Thursday, will be finalised next week, before it is presented to transport minister Noel Dempsey. Other proposals in the report include:

* increasing cash fares to encourage use of a smartcard, which Dublin Bus said it could introduce by December

* extending Railway Order legislation to include Quality Bus Corridors (QBCs)

* allowing buses and taxis to use the port tunnel at a reduced rate

* converting some motorway hard shoulders to QBCs.

jman0 · 07-05-2008 9:28am

It's a brilliant idea and one that is long overdue.
City centres really come to life once you get the cars out of way.
It's like giving the city back to people, rather than the motorists.

LFCFan · 07-05-2008 11:51am

Can someone answer me this. Why are there not more Park & Ride facilities on the outskirts of Dublin? Surely if there were massive car parks on the N3, N2, N4 etc etc with very frequent bus/rail/tram services in and out of the city, it would reduce private car use in the city by a massive amount? All these new Motorways and improved roads in and out of Dublin are great but what's the point if you just hit a bottlenext 3 or 4 miles from your destination!

KC61 · 07-05-2008 12:19pm

This plan is coming from the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, and not from Frank Fahey. It has yet to be finalised I understand.

It has not come about overnight, but after 6 months of hearings in which the Committee has held hearings on how to improve the bus transport operation in Dublin, taking submissions from bus operators (both CIE and private), bus unions, bus users (written submissions were invited in national newspapers earlier this year), Department of Transport, RPA, DTO, local authorities, and various others.

This arose from the fact that the Committee took the view (rightly in my opinion) that the bus network was one area that could be improved reasonably quickly, whereas most other projects are medium-long term. They then sought to understand how it operated and how it could be improved.

By seeking submissions from bus users, this was the first time that individuals got a chance to put their views to an official body.

Details of all the hearings can be followed at:

http://garaiste.yuku.com/forums/27/t/Joint-Oireachtas-Committee-on-Transport-Debates-Bus-Services.html

trellheim · 07-05-2008 1:42pm

kc61 : the committee has no power to make regulations, the Minister does that. I've been mystified why they've been doing this because it doesn't seem to have a point.

As for the

Why are there not more Park & Ride facilities on the outskirts of Dublin? Surely if there were massive car parks on the N3, N2, N4 etc etc with very frequent bus/rail/tram services in and out of the city, it would reduce private car use in the city by a massive amount? All these new Motorways and improved roads in and out of Dublin are great but what's the point if you just hit a bottlenext 3 or 4 miles from your destination!

issue, didn't

ABP just [ couple months ago ] refuse FPP for a huge P&R in Lucan ?

See
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ20080130.xml&Node=H2#H2

AlekSmart · 07-05-2008 1:55pm

The manner in which this committee has addressed its brief should be held as model for future deliberations.

The benefits of several differing political strands being able to set-aside their various ideologies and LISTEN to the evidence being put before them was something to consider for future times.

The key to the success of this committee`s work lies in the initial decision to focus on what improvements could be achieved in the Short-Term and at low cost by investing in targeted improvements to existing Bus infrastructure.

This of itself excluded the usual hungry bands of Grandes Projet merchants with their vastly expensive schemes requiring Billions to even set in train (!)

I was particularly impressed with the Chairman`s ability to brush aside the PR based waffle which some of the delegates came armed with.

The Local Authority delegation were somewhat miffed when they were repeatedly pressed on what plans they had for Bus Based Park & Ride schemes.

In spite of constantly attempting to drone on about their arrangements with Iarnrod Eireann for RAIL based P&R it rapidly emerged that these hugely important professional planners and administrators had not even recognized the existance of the Bus as a viable contributor to Public Transport.

Full marks to the Committe Members for deciding to force the pace on their chosen route rather than waste precious time listening to the many and various Grande Plans being trotted out yet again for the media to rehash ....yet again on a slow news day.

The Committee also heard from Departmental Officials and drew some very interesting facts out of the murky Civil Service corridors such as the Departments total lack of knowledge as to how many unlicenced bus operators are out there.

The sight and sound of a senior Dept of Transport official having to admit to their total ignorance of this important statistic was surely a defining moment and the Official`s waffle about the Road Safety Authority having a Hotline for the general public to report these things to sounded ever more in the realms of P45 land.

Let us hope that the success of this committee`s work does not frighten the established Civil Service and its Political paymasters too much so that they decide to shut it down !!!!

KC61 · 07-05-2008 1:57pm

trellheim wrote: »

kc61 : the committee has no power to make regulations, the Minister does that. I've been mystified why they've been doing this because it doesn't seem to have a point.

As for the

issue, didn't

ABP just [ couple months ago ] refuse FPP for a huge P&R in Lucan ?

See
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ20080130.xml&Node=H2#H2

I am fully aware that it cannot make regulations. However, the Committee can make recommendations, and that is what the Minister for Transport asked it to do.

This plan is exactly that - a recommendation from the Committee following months of hearings on the subject from all of the interested parties.

Ham'nd'egger · 07-05-2008 3:03pm

3 pages into this thread and I am surprised that this was never mentioned already in any detail, but here goes....

The area proposed as being traffic restricted already is subject to car/vans restrictions on a 24 7 basis from a number of feeder points to this area. These are

North Frederick Street, no entry for cars from Dorset Street. This links onto the no car access at O'Connell Street at the Parnell Square End.
No right turn from Georges Street onto Dame Street.
No left turn from Dawson Street onto Nassau Street and hence onto College Green.
No entry for cars at Pearse Street at the Garda Station save for access.

As it stands, these are policed to varying levels of success in order to regulate traffic flow in and around the city centre; Georges Street and Nassua Street are quite well enforced; the Parnell Square end is a joke. Were they rigidly enforced, this area would be largely car free given the lack of access points for cars/vans and this action would be nowhere near drastic.

jman0 · 07-05-2008 4:19pm

suppose i should wait before applauding the plan.
If they won't pedestrianize these places, then i'd go with turning them into Living Steets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_street

armada104 · 07-05-2008 4:36pm

Flukey wrote: »

All this will do is shift the bottleneck.

Exactly. To make room for the buses. Noone is claiming otherwise.

lostexpectation · 07-05-2008 4:38pm

any maps of the area?

Bee · 08-05-2008 1:59am

kaizersoze1980 wrote: »

about time. ban all cars from the city centre,

With the extra 350 buses all forms of public transport into Dublin will cater for approx 20% (Dept figures) of car travelling commuters.

Only a total Duckwit is capable of coming up with a non solution for Dublin like this one.

Sack the idiots that dreamt up that one

Lets have an election soon!

Bee · 08-05-2008 2:09am

invincibleirish wrote: »

What and ignore cars? its all the cars in cities that cause congestion, public transport in anyform has to take priority.

Nope, it's total traffic mismanagement by DCC, public transport is part of the solution an integrated transport plan with the various agencies and most importantley car driving commuters must be brought into place.

Civil servants, TD's the poor and the unemployed and other social welfare recipients need public transport.

Removing car driving commuters will just create total congestion by buses in the city centre, have you seen the mess that O'Connell St is since buses have been prioritised? Its a total polluted traffic mess with buses and lunatic cyclists.

Bee · 08-05-2008 2:12am

AlekSmart wrote: »

As if by magic a voice from above responds to Astrofool :

Dublin: init wins first contract in Ireland

Karlsruhe, May 5, 2008. init innovation in traffic systems AG scored in yet another key strategic move in European business: Dublin Bus, one of the largest Irish transportation providers, has now opted for the introduction of a telematics system from init. Under the recently signed contract, init will provide Dublin Bus with an intermodal transport control system (ITCS) for its bus network and equip around 1200 busses with COPILOTpc on-board computers, WLANrouters and the operating unit PRESSit.

Also part of the contract is a multi operator real time passenger information system including around 1000 PIDstation passenger information displays. The contract, as the first for init in Ireland, also includes the integrated statistical analysis software MOBILEstatistics, the reporting software MOBILEreports and an intranet solution which allows roadside inspectors to display real-time data on portable units. This contract with Dublin Bus is another large-scale project for an European capital.

The project starts at first with a specification phase. Then Dublin Bus will approve the further roll-out of the complete bus fleet. Dublin Bus intends to use the init solution to optimize its operations, improve the efficiency of vehicle management, and reduce its operational costs. With the passenger information system the citizens and visitors of Dublin shall be served with reliable real-time information at the bus stops. Services of Dublin Bus are used by around 146 million passengers each year.

For further information contact:

Alexandra Weiß
init innovation intraffic systems AG
Kaeppelestraße 4-6
76131 Karlsruhe
Tel.: 0721/6100-102
Fax: 0721/6100-399
ir@initag.de

So for those who still persist with the notion of "fumes from buses ticking-over on College St" which WAS a problem in the 1980`s and early 90`s,here is some concrete evidence of progress.......even if "Integrated Ticketing" will take a bit longer and not be REALLY integrated at all .......No Germans involved here Y`see...

Also note well the wording here: " Also part of the contract is a MULTI OPERATOR real time passenger information system"

Remember too that these innovations are coming from Dublin Bus itself and have had to suffer endless delays due to Departmental chin-stroking and worrying about appearing to favour the travelling public above the poor motorist.....!

You have totally missed the point! Hoo Haa for Dublin bus! But as you obviously do not know, Irish Rail, the Luas etc are pursuing their own agenda and *** WILL NOT*** agree to integrate with that system!:eek:

Bee · 08-05-2008 2:14am

Tails142 wrote: »

Lads calm down, they're only talking about closing down Dame Street through to Westmoreland Street and up to O'Connell Street.

You'll still be able to go up and down the quay, and round by Christchurch, Dorset street etc, etc.

I would guess that 75-80% of the traffic on those three streets are buses and taxis anyway due to turn restrictions and such so its really a storm in a tea cup.

Good point, you highlight a good reason why traffic congestion is so bad due to inept traffic enginerring by the fools in DCC!

Bee · 08-05-2008 2:25am

jman0 wrote: »

It's a brilliant idea and one that is long overdue.
City centres really come to life once you get the cars out of way.
It's like giving the city back to people, rather than the motorists.

Oh dear you really have the wrong end of the stick....

Street violence, especially against women, has increased along e.g. Abbey street to Capel st, basically where the Luas track runs due to a lack of cars flowing along in the evening.

Less fear of being seen by passing motorists has led to more anti social behaviour, have a word with Store St GArda station

trellheim · 08-05-2008 7:25am

My Ass.

Street violence, especially against women, has increased along e.g. Abbey street to Capel st, basically where the Luas track runs due to a lack of cars flowing along in the evening.

Links or it didn't happen, that's outside my window.

What >is< true is that Jervis LUAS stop has become an extremely busy stop, and because it is hemmed in on both sides unlike SSG it's probably busiest station of them all

Because of this one gets a high proportion of nasties plying the crowd for alms etc etc you know yourself.

RedPlanet · 08-05-2008 9:41am

Bee wrote: »

Civil servants, TD's the poor and the unemployed and other social welfare recipients need public transport.

What a ridiculous attitude.

mickoneill30 · 08-05-2008 9:57am

Bee wrote: »

With the extra 350 buses all forms of public transport into Dublin will cater for approx 20% (Dept figures) of car travelling commuters.

I heard a statistic quoted by a transport official last year that the buses (I don't think it was just Dublin Bus) already serve 50% of commuters into Dublin. So taking 20% of cars off the road would bump that up to something like 60% of total commuters.

Bee wrote: »

Removing car driving commuters will just create total congestion by buses in the city centre, have you seen the mess that O'Connell St is since buses have been prioritised? Its a total polluted traffic mess with buses and lunatic cyclists.

I walk along O'Connell St every morning. Is it really prioritised for buses? At least 50% of vehicles are cars (not taxis).
http://195.218.114.214/living_in_the_city/getting_around/traffic_cameras/

And what's with the constant references to buses being polluting monsters. They are, obviously, but what are the stats. 1 bus creates the same amount of pollution as how many cars? Then 1 bus during a day carries how many commuters?

dereko1969 · 08-05-2008 10:33am

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Committee also heard from Departmental Officials and drew some very interesting facts out of the murky Civil Service corridors such as the Departments total lack of knowledge as to how many unlicenced bus operators are out there.

How many unlicensed guns are there in the country?

Licenses are issued for routes not for individual buses so even comparing the number of buses on the vehicle register in Shannon against the number of routes licensed would not throw up any sort of an accurate figure, also take into account the number of buses for private hire that may occasionally do work for bus eireann etc that do not require route licensing. How would you get the figure for unlicensed buses?

monument · 08-05-2008 3:03pm

Bee wrote: »

...public transport is part of the solution an integrated transport plan with the various agencies and most importantley car driving commuters must be brought into place.

Sorry to be crude, but I think you're missing the point - this plan aims to bring car driving commuters "into place".

That is, into their very small place in the margins.

Cork_Rebel · 08-05-2008 6:17pm

Hopefully they'll allow for adequate lanes for cyclists and motor bikes, give the motorist more options than just the bus without compromising on the speed of bus transit.

And more than just a token gesture of a dotted line for cyclists which to be fair most bus drivers respect.

Will taxis be allowed to use it? If so hopefully you won't get some wealthy opportuntistic people buying a easily available means of using bus lanes.

bazzer · 08-05-2008 7:42pm

Cork_Rebel wrote: »

And more than just a token gesture of a dotted line for cyclists which to be fair most bus drivers respect.

Just to be clear, a 'dotted' line marking the edge of a cycle lane means that portion of roadway can be legally shared by both cycles AND other traffic.

A continuous line means that other traffic must NOT transgress into the cycle lane.

AlekSmart · 09-05-2008 12:50am

Quote Dereko1969: "Licenses are issued for routes not for individual buses so even comparing the number of buses on the vehicle register in Shannon against the number of routes licensed would not throw up any sort of an accurate figure, also take into account the number of buses for private hire that may occasionally do work for bus eireann etc that do not require route licensing. How would you get the figure for unlicensed buses?"

Oddly enough for the past 2 years or so all Dublin Bus vehicles have been displaying a statutory Vehicle Specific Operators Licence disc Issued by the Dept of Transport Road Passenger Licencing Section.

This disc carries dire warnings about its display and the fact that it MUST be returned to the Dept if the vehicle changes hands or is otherwise removed from service.

Mind you Dereko1969 does have a valid point re the guns...its prob far easier to import an AK47 than it is to smuggle in an AN68 !!

murphaph · 09-05-2008 9:44am

First comment on this but short term this has to be a good thing. However! medium to longer term we should displace cars further from the centre and then also remove buses from this central spine (Parnell Sq-O'Connell St-Westmoreland StCollege Green-Dame St) and make it pedestrian only like Marienplatz in Munich.

See here. That is pretty much the centre of the city of Munich. The main train station is just to the west but the area of interest os from the oval paved area (Karlsplatz) east to the large rectangular square (Marienplatz). Please note the large number of pedestrians here and compare to the few numbers of vehicles on the main arterial routes. Public transport works.

mackerski · 09-05-2008 11:28pm

In the case of Marienplatz, it's worth realising that it was in the past the junction of two tram lines, one north-south, the other east-west. When these were replaced by U- and S-Bahn respectively, they dug up the tram lines and all trams in the city centre take somewhat different routes.

One for us to consider if we still insist on joining our own two tram lines.

AlekSmart · 10-05-2008 2:17am

In the case of Munich,and other German cities,how much was contributed by the RAF and Air Marshall Harris as it would seem that in many cases,medieval cities not unlike Dublin in layout were suddenly obliterated and a blank canvas was left to redraw the lines..?

murphaph · 10-05-2008 9:45am

AlekSmart wrote: »

In the case of Munich,and other German cities,how much was contributed by the RAF and Air Marshall Harris as it would seem that in many cases,medieval cities not unlike Dublin in layout were suddenly obliterated and a blank canvas was left to redraw the lines..?

This apsect is often overplayed actually. Many german cities were left untouched as they presented no military target (some were targeted for morale damage such as Dresden of course) but even those that were flattened often didn't build their undergrounds until the bulk of the city was already rebuilt-Munich and Cologne did not build any underground until 20 years or so after the war ended. The Economic Miracle (who else has had one of those recently?) was far more responsible for Germany's ability to build their networks than any works by the RAF it should be said. The section Mackerski talks about (east-west S-Bahn intersecting with north-south U-Bahn at Marienplatz) was primarily built for......the 1972 Olympics! Munich was going to go with a pre-metro like Stuttgart/Cologne but decided on full blown high platform heavy rail underground when it got the nod from the IOC.

AlekSmart · 10-05-2008 1:24pm

Thanks for the clarification Murphaph..so it really does boil back down to having some form of cohesive,integrated planning then ?

It would seem that the German planning model,in public transport terms at least,involved individuals and agencies which were in actual agreement as to a plan ?

As far as I can see,even with the shiny new proposed DTA,Dublin will still not have any centralized Public Transport Planning agency and therefore will continue to depend on inter-agency co-operation or whatever buzzword the Minister chooses.

Ah well Fan go bFheicimid...??

Plan to make Dublin city centre car free

Comments