Waterford Whinge (for and against)

fricatus · 07-04-2008 1:44pm #1

invincibleirish wrote: »

...and massively extended journey time for Dublin - Cork, which lets be fair is missing the point entirely of Motorway building. maybe a more practical option when the boyos were drawing up Motorway building plans would have been the M8 coming through central Kilkenny and then spurring off to Waterford. but no every "city" had to get a Motorway to Dublin :rolleyes:

And we wonder why Martin Cullen gets re-elected! hopeless minister but does the job for where it matters :rolleyes: x2.

There are merits in your argument that Cork and Waterford should have been served by one motorway running about as far as Kilkenny and then splitting. Similarly Limerick and Galway should have been served by one motorway to about Birr, which could then have been split off.

Why though attack Waterford? Why the inverted commas around the word "city? Why shouldn't we have a motorway link to Dublin? Why the sarcasm when we finally get a bypass and second bridge, something we've been campaigning for for 30 years? Why do I never seem to hear the same snide tone applied to Galway, for example?

We have put up with this horse***t for years and years, while we slipped down the national league tables in terms of disposable income, educational attainment, foreign direct investment, etc. We were always told there wasn't money in the pot, while investment and new roads went in all around the country.

All we're doing now is catching up after a long period of neglect. Don't begrudge us that.

road_high · 07-04-2008 3:17pm

fricatus wrote: »

There are merits in your argument that Cork and Waterford should have been served by one motorway running about as far as Kilkenny and then splitting. Similarly Limerick and Galway should have been served by one motorway to about Birr, which could then have been split off.

Why though attack Waterford? Why the inverted commas around the word "city? Why shouldn't we have a motorway link to Dublin? Why the sarcasm when we finally get a bypass and second bridge, something we've been campaigning for for 30 years? Why do I never seem to hear the same snide tone applied to Galway, for example?

We have put up with this horse***t for years and years, while we slipped down the national league tables in terms of disposable income, educational attainment, foreign direct investment, etc. We were always told there wasn't money in the pot, while investment and new roads went in all around the country.

All we're doing now is catching up after a long period of neglect. Don't begrudge us that.

Yea well said. Same can be said for all the south east region too in terms of neglect etc.

fitzyshea · 07-04-2008 3:30pm

fricatus wrote: »

There are merits in your argument that Cork and Waterford should have been served by one motorway running about as far as Kilkenny and then splitting. Similarly Limerick and Galway should have been served by one motorway to about Birr, which could then have been split off.

Why though attack Waterford? Why the inverted commas around the word "city? Why shouldn't we have a motorway link to Dublin? Why the sarcasm when we finally get a bypass and second bridge, something we've been campaigning for for 30 years? Why do I never seem to hear the same snide tone applied to Galway, for example?

We have put up with this horse***t for years and years, while we slipped down the national league tables in terms of disposable income, educational attainment, foreign direct investment, etc. We were always told there wasn't money in the pot, while investment and new roads went in all around the country.

All we're doing now is catching up after a long period of neglect. Don't begrudge us that.

Well said!

Bards · 07-04-2008 4:32pm

fricatus wrote: »

There are merits in your argument that Cork and Waterford should have been served by one motorway running about as far as Kilkenny and then splitting. Similarly Limerick and Galway should have been served by one motorway to about Birr, which could then have been split off.

Why though attack Waterford? Why the inverted commas around the word "city? Why shouldn't we have a motorway link to Dublin? Why the sarcasm when we finally get a bypass and second bridge, something we've been campaigning for for 30 years? Why do I never seem to hear the same snide tone applied to Galway, for example?

We have put up with this horse***t for years and years, while we slipped down the national league tables in terms of disposable income, educational attainment, foreign direct investment, etc. We were always told there wasn't money in the pot, while investment and new roads went in all around the country.

All we're doing now is catching up after a long period of neglect. Don't begrudge us that.

+1

invincibleirish · 07-04-2008 5:50pm

fricatus wrote: »

There are merits in your argument that Cork and Waterford should have been served by one motorway running about as far as Kilkenny and then splitting. Similarly Limerick and Galway should have been served by one motorway to about Birr, which could then have been split off.

Why though attack Waterford? Why the inverted commas around the word "city? Why shouldn't we have a motorway link to Dublin? Why the sarcasm when we finally get a bypass and second bridge, something we've been campaigning for for 30 years? Why do I never seem to hear the same snide tone applied to Galway, for example?

We have put up with this horse***t for years and years, while we slipped down the national league tables in terms of disposable income, educational attainment, foreign direct investment, etc. We were always told there wasn't money in the pot, while investment and new roads went in all around the country.

All we're doing now is catching up after a long period of neglect. Don't begrudge us that.

Incorrect. Look at the UK there are many towns far larger with no Motorway connections then Waterford. it is a waste of money for a full M9 Motorway, either Waterford could have connected to the N11 or M8, that would have been sufficient, have a look at some of the traffic counters for the current N9, of course i dont begrudge the "city" a bypass.

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N09-05.htm

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N09-10.htm

thats 6,000 and 12,000, respectively, no where near justification for a new M9(though i respect the fact that road did need to be upgraded around Paulstown)

why do i use inverted commas when i call Waterford a "city"? because it is not a city its a town, according to the CSO, its population is around 45,000.
However some Waterford types suffer from the same condition as people of the West have, namely you feel you are entitled to huge infrastructural spending because your thinking is out of all proportion to what Waterford is.

Waterford deserves a University? why?
Waterford deserves a Full Motorway to Dublin? why?

Ultimately its all politics,and of course all politics is local, thats why i mentioned Martin Cullen, but im **** sick tired of public money being spent on vanity projects.with a full Motorway to Dublin it just encourages sprawl all the way along it.

last time i questioned all things Waterford, much was made of where im from, if you want to have a Cork V Wateford debate, forget it where im from has nothing to do with it, stupid county insults demean those who say it.

road_high · 07-04-2008 6:46pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

Incorrect. Look at the UK there are many towns far larger with no Motorway connections then Waterford. it is a waste of money for a full M9 Motorway, either Waterford could have connected to the N11 or M8, that would have been sufficient, have a look at some of the traffic counters for the current N9, of course i dont begrudge the "city" a bypass.

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N09-05.htm

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N09-10.htm

thats 6,000 and 12,000, respectively, no where near justification for a new M9(though i respect the fact that road did need to be upgraded around Paulstown)

why do i use inverted commas when i call Waterford a "city"? because it is not a city its a town, according to the CSO, its population is around 45,000.
However some Waterford types suffer from the same condition as people of the West have, namely you feel you are entitled to huge infrastructural spending because your thinking is out of all proportion to what Waterford is.

Waterford deserves a University? why?
Waterford deserves a Full Motorway to Dublin? why?

Ultimately its all politics,and of course all politics is local, thats why i mentioned Martin Cullen, but im **** sick tired of public money being spent on vanity projects.with a full Motorway to Dublin it just encourages sprawl all the way along it.

last time i questioned all things Waterford, much was made of where im from, if you want to have a Cork V Wateford debate, forget it where im from has nothing to do with it, stupid county insults demean those who say it.

Well you are makin it a Waterford vs Cork debate in fairness with those points...
As for the parallel with the UK, I dunno, but I think u might find cities the size of Cork without Motorway links, i.e. just dual carriageway?? Cork is not a big city by any stretch of the imagination and quite isolated from the rest of the country geographically. And I suppose a motorway to Cork (which passes through my own county too) will not encourage urban sprawl somehow...
Fact is he M9 is half built and half underway at this stage so get over it basically

Bards · 08-04-2008 8:56am

invincibleirish wrote: »

why do i use inverted commas when i call Waterford a "city"? because it is not a city its a town, according to the CSO, its population is around 45,000.
However some Waterford types suffer from the same condition as people of the West have, namely you feel you are entitled to huge infrastructural spending because your thinking is out of all proportion to what Waterford is.

Waterford deserves a University? why?
Waterford deserves a Full Motorway to Dublin? why?
QUOTE]

All from http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popofeachprovcountycity2006.htm

Limerick population 52,539
IT & University - why?
Motorway - why?

Galway 72,414
IT & University - why?
Motorway - why?

These cities are not much bigger than Waterford, and are towns by Interrnational standards. the only reason that both Waterford & Limerick have small population figures, ignores the fact that the City Boundaries are tiny compared to Galway for Example. if each City had the same radius say 10 miles the figures for all three would be closer to 100,000

There's lies, damn lies and statistics

Zoney · 08-04-2008 10:09am

Bards wrote: »

All from http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popofeachprovcountycity2006.htm

Limerick population 52,539
IT & University - why?
Motorway - why?

Galway 72,414
IT & University - why?
Motorway - why?

These cities are not much bigger than Waterford, and are towns by Interrnational standards. the only reason that both Waterford & Limerick have small population figures, ignores the fact that the City Boundaries are tiny compared to Galway for Example. if each City had the same radius say 10 miles the figures for all three would be closer to 100,000

There's lies, damn lies and statistics

Limerick is about twice the size of Waterford, including suburbs. 90,757 vs. 49,213 (CSO 2006). One doesn't need to extend the boundaries 10 miles - only two miles. The entire suburbs of Castletroy (including the Uni) and Raheen are outside the city. All in all, just a bit over half of Limerick is inside the city limits. At least two of the main city bus services have half their route in the county.

Waterford should have a Uni though, and it's not specifically to do with the size of Waterford. It's to do with serving the entire southeast and even providing an alternative for Kildare, Cork, etc.

The problem is how to do this politically while closing the door on any future IT->Uni conversions (not something that is desired as a general principle, even if an exception should be made for Waterford).

mysterious · 08-04-2008 3:15pm

Bards wrote: »

invincibleirish wrote: »

why do i use inverted commas when i call Waterford a "city"? because it is not a city its a town, according to the CSO, its population is around 45,000.
However some Waterford types suffer from the same condition as people of the West have, namely you feel you are entitled to huge infrastructural spending because your thinking is out of all proportion to what Waterford is.

Waterford deserves a University? why?
Waterford deserves a Full Motorway to Dublin? why?
QUOTE]

All from http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popofeachprovcountycity2006.htm

Limerick population 52,539
IT & University - why?
Motorway - why?

Galway 72,414
IT & University - why?
Motorway - why?

These cities are not much bigger than Waterford, and are towns by Interrnational standards. the only reason that both Waterford & Limerick have small population figures, ignores the fact that the City Boundaries are tiny compared to Galway for Example. if each City had the same radius say 10 miles the figures for all three would be closer to 100,000

There's lies, damn lies and statistics

Firstly your wrong. Waterford's boundary is not small in comparison to the other cities:)

Your whole "post" is like trying like saying oh Waterford more muscles than it has.. Or Limerick and Galway has not much more jumpers than Waterford anyway... ffs. Oh oh oh oh etc but Waterford is still a city, oh but still....:D Have we not enough of this nonsense already?

Secondly its a load of BS...

Are you telling us that you know or you think Waterford does have a population of 100,000 if the boundary was extended 10 miles out as you've stated..

You haven't been really paying full attention, or the figures on any of this on this topic. So if you haven't, Don't talk about them until you know.

Most people know that the CSO figures of the cities population's are not fully inaccurate, But the CSO do have a separate collumn showing the suburb population's of say Limerick and Cork etc.
Both figures for these cities take up to 50% of the population.

But the irony is, you say it's all lies on the fixed boundaries which your are right on that respect, but you still use the inaccurate figures's of Limerick's population in your argument above against Waterford's, That's shows complete fallacy.

Galway and marginally Waterford's have huge boundaries, so most of the cities population is actually totally consumed within. Waterford's boundary in fact one of the largest of not the largest of the four. Waterford population takes in alot of countryside in fact, as so does Galway.
Since you've been on CSO already why don't you post us the boundary size of the four regional cities. Bet you'll put your horses back in your stables:D

It's really pissing me off, when I hear people manipulating facts to their stories.

Your argument is really stupid. Waterford is the smallest of the regional cities. End of story. If we were to go along with the sh!te you sprout about, then we should just give every town a bypass and motorway just to keep you and everyone happy. Sadly but it just doesn't work like that.

ardmacha · 08-04-2008 4:45pm

Given that vehicle ownership rates in the South-East in general and Carlow in particular are high ( even by international standards ) would seem to justify the building of the M9

It is difficult to argue that the south-east is an economically depressed area if its vehicle ownership is so high. Donegal and Monaghan have lower vehicle ownership rates and no access to railways whatsoever. County Donegal has a population almost 40% higher than County Waterford.

invincibleirish · 08-04-2008 4:57pm

Using Vehicle ownership stats to justify building a Motorway? nonsense.

i've a better idea, how about guessing how many people will actually use the M9?, im pretty certain when its built large sections outside the immediate Waterford & Dublin commutes will not handle anything like the numbers usually used to justify building a Motorway.

But as pointed out to me the M9 is unstoppable in its progress. another victory to parochial politics!

road_high · 08-04-2008 9:23pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

Using Vehicle ownership stats to justify building a Motorway? nonsense.

i've a better idea, how about guessing how many people will actually use the M9?, im pretty certain when its built large sections outside the immediate Waterford & Dublin commutes will not handle anything like the numbers usually used to justify building a Motorway.

But as pointed out to me the M9 is unstoppable in its progress. another victory to parochial politics!

Ditto for the N/M8..however doubt you think that it's planning and building was parochial somehow

Victor · 08-04-2008 9:54pm

mfitzy wrote: »

Ditto for the N/M8..however doubt you think that it's planning and building was parochial somehow

Parochial was building them all, instead of just what was necessary.

invincibleirish · 10-04-2008 12:14am

fricatus wrote: »

I never mentioned good planning. My words were "high quality", which I suppose is vague... what I meant is in terms of economic activity. The area has an international airport and a high concentration of well known quality employers.

We don't want social transfers! We don't want to be living on bloody welfare. We want infrastructural investment, on a par with what goes into the likes of Limerick and Galway, so that we too can compete at that level.

All we need in the south-east is improved access (which at long last is coming), a properly funded university, and a little more help from the IDA

1. Waterford airport has a tiny number of passengers, you want more money spent on PSO flights, new airport infrastructure etc., do you not think Ireland has enough international airports? that our present airport infrastructure is more then adequate to deal with demand without spending countless millions more when larger airports are in debt?

2. Waterford has structural investment,a new city bypass & bridge were your most critical needs and you are getting them, in the national sceme of things would you not agree a project like the N20 upgrade would deserve priority based on numbers using the roads?

3. Every region has a wishlist of what it thinks it needs, but inevitably projects like the WRC gets priority over something like the interconnecter because spending has to be spread across regions, i say prioritise projects in road & rail in terms of need defined in users rather then a regional need or mindset.

Boardsbud · 10-04-2008 12:49am

I've been keeping an eye on this thread with interest and with no particular bias I have to ask invincibleirish what is your problem ? You seem to be very anti Waterford for some reason. Would you care to explain why ? There are a lot more towns and dare I say cities without being attacked (Kilkenny and Waterford) that will benefit from the new M9. For current usage the motorway designation is probably overkill but as someone already mentioned the current road is a disgrace and the cost factor of building a new N9 is probably not a whole lot less, relatively, than to build the motorway now for the future. Maybe the powers that be have got something right !!

1. Waterford airport has a tiny number of passengers, you want more money spent on PSO flights, new airport infrastructure etc., do you not think Ireland has enough international airports? that our present airport infrastructure is more then adequate to deal with demand without spending countless millions more when larger airports are in debt?

Waterford Airport has seen a massive increase in traffic over the last few years with little state funding. It has seen very lean times where no scheduled services operated but I think its great to see it has finally turned that corner. It is a supported and used by people from all over the south east region and beyond. There are NO PSO flights and there havent been any since Aer Lingus pulled out years ago. The fact that our larger (State owned it must be pointed out) airports are burdened with debt, however that came about, is for discussion elsewhere. I don't see Waterford becoming a major threat to Cork anytime soon if thats what you're worried about. In the meantime as long as Aer Arann can keep filling planes out of Waterford, what harm ?

2. Waterford has structural investment,a new city bypass & bridge were your most critical needs and you are getting them, in the national sceme of things would you not agree a project like the N20 upgrade would deserve priority based on numbers using the roads?

While I'm not familiar with this particular road the upgrade of pretty much all our N routes must continue, I don't think anyone can deny this or even begrudge this based on petty county boundary arguments.

3. Every region has a wishlist of what it thinks it needs, but inevitably projects like the WRC gets priority over something like the interconnecter because spending has to be spread across regions, i say prioritise projects in road & rail in terms of need defined in users rather then a regional need or mindset.

As someone living in Dublin I agree that the WRC should have been less of a priority than getting the interconnector built but as I understand it the WRC is well underway and the Interconnector is in development. Both projects are happening, I don't think its a case of stopping one so the other can happen faster at this stage !!

merlante · 10-04-2008 4:16pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

1. Waterford airport has a tiny number of passengers, you want more money spent on PSO flights, new airport infrastructure etc., do you not think Ireland has enough international airports? that our present airport infrastructure is more then adequate to deal with demand without spending countless millions more when larger airports are in debt?

This is absolutely laughable. Never has so much good come out of such a poorly funded airport. People were saying it was a waste of money to give Waterford vital funds to rescue it 5 years ago, now with these funds, which are insignificant compared to PSO contracts that *all* other airports receive, passenger numbers have risen from a low of 20,000 in 2002 to over 100,000 in 2007 and a possible 200,000 in 2008. There are now flights to a number of locations from Waterford, most notably Amsterdam and there are plans for Charles de Gaul.

A total and utter success story despite years of government neglect, when a small amount of funding could have changed everything far earlier. There is such a thing as good regional investment!

Comparisons with passenger numbers at Dublin are meaningless btw because Dublin is the 3rd or 4th largest airport in the British isles, and therefore a special case.

invincibleirish wrote: »

2. Waterford has structural investment,a new city bypass & bridge were your most critical needs and you are getting them, in the national sceme of things would you not agree a project like the N20 upgrade would deserve priority based on numbers using the roads?

'Numbers using the roads' do not accurately reflect the numbers that will use a new road. Population living along or near to a road is a far better measure.

Figures showing that part of N9 -- a truly awful, dangerous road -- are not well used, for example, are meaningless. The population density of the south east is much higher than that of the west, and the population within 20 miles of Waterford city is larger than the population within 20 miles of Galway city. If there is some reason why people use the Waterford road less than the Galway road, it is not because there are less people there. It may be because there are alternative routes (and the N11 is a real alternative in Waterford's case with the N9 so bad) or that for some reason the south east interacts less with Dublin. Or maybe it's because the south east is poorer than the west.

Either way, the south east and Waterford should have the same infrastructure as other large regions.

As regards whether or not the N20 upgrade (or whatever road) should have been prioritised ahead of Waterford's infrastructure. There's a simple answer:
a) Waterford should be prioritised the same as Limerick and Galway -- any reprioritisation of regional urban infrastructure may well be the proper 'national' thing to do, but to punish Waterford in isolation, while other cities progress would be despicable. Why is Waterford being singled out here?
b) Regional infrastuctural development 'overprioritisation' is arguable in line with the national spatial strategy.

invincibleirish wrote: »

3. Every region has a wishlist of what it thinks it needs, but inevitably projects like the WRC gets priority over something like the interconnecter because spending has to be spread across regions, i say prioritise projects in road & rail in terms of need defined in users rather then a regional need or mindset.

This regional 'mindset' is reinforced by the way the government does business. The government effectively force all regions, cities, towns and villages to fight and claw for whatever they can get, and fight and claw more when there's a minister in there because you don't know how long it'll be till the next time. You can cross a county boundary in Ireland and pass from the first to the third world or vica versa in terms of infrastructure. Where's the sense to it?

That's where we're at in Ireland. It is not necessarily where the 'people of the regions' are at. Waterford (for example) cannot expect to get a motorway or a university without fighting for it, using any and all means at our disposal -- we must jump through all hoops and play all political games, not because we want to but because we have to. This is despite the south east being as large and as populous a region (if not more so) than other regions where delivery is automatic. The people of Waterford and the south east would be only too delighted if the government would come up with a fair strategy for how infrastructural funds were to be spent over the next 50 years.

That way we could start to give a **** about things like the plight of Tibet and gay marriage.

invincibleirish · 10-04-2008 6:14pm

merlante wrote: »

This is absolutely laughable. Never has so much good come out of such a poorly funded airport. People were saying it was a waste of money to give Waterford vital funds to rescue it 5 years ago, now with these funds, which are insignificant compared to PSO contracts that *all* other airports receive, passenger numbers have risen from a low of 20,000 in 2002 to over 100,000 in 2007 and a possible 200,000 in 2008. There are now flights to a number of locations from Waterford, most notably Amsterdam and there are plans for Charles de Gaul.

A total and utter success story despite years of government neglect, when a small amount of funding could have changed everything far earlier. There is such a thing as good regional investment!

Comparisons with passenger numbers at Dublin are meaningless btw because Dublin is the 3rd or 4th largest airport in the British isles, and therefore a special case.

'Numbers using the roads' do not accurately reflect the numbers that will use a new road. Population living along or near to a road is a far better measure.

Figures showing that part of N9 -- a truly awful, dangerous road -- are not well used, for example, are meaningless. The population density of the south east is much higher than that of the west, and the population within 20 miles of Waterford city is larger than the population within 20 miles of Galway city. If there is some reason why people use the Waterford road less than the Galway road, it is not because there are less people there. It may be because there are alternative routes (and the N11 is a real alternative in Waterford's case with the N9 so bad) or that for some reason the south east interacts less with Dublin. Or maybe it's because the south east is poorer than the west.

Either way, the south east and Waterford should have the same infrastructure as other large regions.

As regards whether or not the N20 upgrade (or whatever road) should have been prioritised ahead of Waterford's infrastructure. There's a simple answer:
a) Waterford should be prioritised the same as Limerick and Galway -- any reprioritisation of regional urban infrastructure may well be the proper 'national' thing to do, but to punish Waterford in isolation, while other cities progress would be despicable. Why is Waterford being singled out here?
b) Regional infrastuctural development 'overprioritisation' is arguable in line with the national spatial strategy.

This regional 'mindset' is reinforced by the way the government does business. The government effectively force all regions, cities, towns and villages to fight and claw for whatever they can get, and fight and claw more when there's a minister in there because you don't know how long it'll be till the next time. You can cross a county boundary in Ireland and pass from the first to the third world or vica versa in terms of infrastructure. Where's the sense to it?

That's where we're at in Ireland. It is not necessarily where the 'people of the regions' are at. Waterford (for example) cannot expect to get a motorway or a university without fighting for it, using any and all means at our disposal -- we must jump through all hoops and play all political games, not because we want to but because we have to. This is despite the south east being as large and as populous a region (if not more so) than other regions where delivery is automatic. The people of Waterford and the south east would be only too delighted if the government would come up with a fair strategy for how infrastructural funds were to be spent over the next 50 years.

That way we could start to give a **** about things like the plight of Tibet and gay marriage.

1. What and how much do you think Waterford airport needs, what market is it aiming for, give me a round number 10 million? 20? 100 million investment?.

2. the N20 connects Cork/Limerick, its AADT is 14k vehicles a day,it too is "a truly awful, dangerous road", this road deserves priority over any project that carries smaller numbers.

3. the NSS is not worth the paper its written on, pay no attention to it, the Government certainly does not.

4. Waterford is no different to the rest of the country, every region has its own perceived infrastructural deficit, no region gets infrastructure whose delivery is "automatic".

5. i have a fair idea of how to decide on infrastructural spending on a national basis. focus on where infrastructure is needed most. the WRC is under construction whilst the interconnecter is still plans on a drawing board.

invincibleirish · 10-04-2008 6:23pm

Boardsbud wrote: »

I've been keeping an eye on this thread with interest and with no particular bias I have to ask invincibleirish what is your problem ? You seem to be very anti Waterford for some reason. Would you care to explain why ? There are a lot more towns and dare I say cities without being attacked (Kilkenny and Waterford) that will benefit from the new M9. For current usage the motorway designation is probably overkill but as someone already mentioned the current road is a disgrace and the cost factor of building a new N9 is probably not a whole lot less, relatively, than to build the motorway now for the future. Maybe the powers that be have got something right !!

I have no problem with Waterford, it is a delightful sunny place.

I have a problem with more money being spent on a solution then is required.

I also have a problem with me feiners from the regions demanding their pet projects get national priority, now i'm as guilty as anyone of doing this, but people dont realise, if you put together everything the west wants, everything the east wants, everything Cork wants, everything the South east wants you will have an enormous wishlist of projects costing Billions!
if this is the case then projects should be prioritised on need.

would it actually be any bad thing if parts of the M9, which will replace roads with low traffic volumes, is scrapped so another road project (like the N20) or public transport project (like say the money spent on 100s of new buses for BE) get priority?

Bards · 10-04-2008 7:40pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

I have no problem with Waterford, it is a delightful sunny place.

I have a problem with more money being spent on a solution then is required.

I also have a problem with me feiners from the regions demanding their pet projects get national priority, now i'm as guilty as anyone of doing this, but people dont realise, if you put together everything the west wants, everything the east wants, everything Cork wants, everything the South east wants you will have an enormous wishlist of projects costing Billions!
if this is the case then projects should be prioritised on need.

would it actually be any bad thing if parts of the M9, which will replace roads with low traffic volumes, is scrapped so another road project (like the N20) or public transport project (like say the money spent on 100s of new buses for BE) get priority?

How about rephrasing the above with the following so it would not look like you were bashing Waterford the whole time.

"would it actually be any bad thing if parts of the M7 , which will replace roads with low traffic volumes, is scrapped so another road project (like the N20) or public transport project (like say the money spent on 100s of new buses for BE) get priority"

Neenagh on the N7 has comparable traffic to the lowest trafficked part of the N9. You would then be diverting funds from Limerick to Dublin in favour of Limerick to Cork which would be understandable.

Zoney · 11-04-2008 12:12am

invincibleirish wrote: »

5. i have a fair idea of how to decide on infrastructural spending on a national basis. focus on where infrastructure is needed most. the WRC is under construction whilst the interconnecter is still plans on a drawing board.

This is just silly. There are three straightforward reasons for this. Answer? It's a lot quicker, much easier and far cheaper to reopen a short bit of railway from Ennis-Athenry (providing Limerick-Galway intercity and Ennis-Athenry-Galway commuter) than to design and build a heavy-rail underground central connector in the capital, regardless of how essential the latter is (and I will certainly say that it is vital). About the only two things the two projects have in common is that they are rail projects and repeatedly parroted in Dublin vs. West (or the Rest) rants.

mysterious · 11-04-2008 12:24am

Bards wrote: »

How about rephrasing the above with the following so it would not look like you were bashing Waterford the whole time.

"would it actually be any bad thing if parts of the M7 , which will replace roads with low traffic volumes, is scrapped so another road project (like the N20) or public transport project (like say the money spent on 100s of new buses for BE) get priority"

Neenagh on the N7 has comparable traffic to the lowest trafficked part of the N9. You would then be diverting funds from Limerick to Dublin in favour of Limerick to Cork which would be understandable.

I think I'm gonna bust you again on facts:D

Firstly I agree with invincibleirish, I've said pretty much what he said in my post at the end. This debate is just nonsense on waterford people demanding AND demanding.

I've gotten over it, cus They're getting a motorway. The fact is it's still by far the smallest regional city so it should not get treated like a city of 100,000. END OF STORY, now quite trophy playing!

Now:D I'm just going to post this for the fun of Bards ignorance AGAIN.
2007
Nenagh 8,722 (15.8% HGV)
Mullinavat 7,192 (13% HGV)

Just for arguement sake, Nenagh bypass is actually missing a junction at present, so no local traffic uses this stretch as this explains why its much lower. At either end of the bypass it more than doubles traffic wise. Mullinavat road has much more local traffic using that counter, as with all the private acceses and the town itself.

Almost 7,500 cars join onto the N7 at the Limerick end of Bypass. So this actually makes the Nenagh Limerick N7 around 16,000 a day.

Traffic is actually decreasing on Mullinavat for 2008.

Now bards when u speak on this topic, its better to know what your talking about.

But all in all If I was to agree with your argument, then I believe the N20 should get priority over at least some sections of N9 at present.

road_high · 11-04-2008 12:41am

invincibleirish wrote: »

would it actually be any bad thing if parts of the M9, which will replace roads with low traffic volumes, is scrapped so another road project (like the N20) or public transport project (like say the money spent on 100s of new buses for BE) get priority?

Seen as it's half built and all under construction at this stage I doubt thats gona happen; Having driven the N20 have to say tis a far better road than the current N9; people not from the sth east and not regular N9 users have no comprehension of actually how bad a road it is between Thomastown all the way to Waterford; it is absolutely abysmal alignment, width etc etc.
With three railway bridges stuck in for good measure with delighful signs saying 'oncoming traffic in centre of road' no less :eek:

This whole N9 debate really needs to move, Kilkenny, Waterford and the south east are getting their motorway, end of. The N20 and a ll the many other deserving cases need to fight their own corner rather than knocking provision of much needed infrastructure elsewhere.

road_high · 11-04-2008 12:48am

invincibleirish wrote: »

1. Waterford airport has a tiny number of passengers, you want more money spent on PSO flights, new airport infrastructure etc., do you not think Ireland has enough international airports? that our present airport infrastructure is more then adequate to deal with demand without spending countless millions more when larger airports are in debt?

.

Indeed, such as the debt Dublin airport are carrying for the building of a new terminal in Cork. Why if this was so badly needed can it not pay for itself

mysterious · 11-04-2008 2:54am

Basics

Smaller the city the smaller the road. The N9 deserves to be in more **** than any of the inter urbans, part of the Galway N6 is in sh!t too. but things have to be put on list of order. Starting which route needs work on first. Waterford comes last on every list of the inter urbans so get over it.

But hell what point is this thread now, Waterford folks here have to have an answer for everything lol..

The facts shut a few up though:p

Oh here if that's not enough,, Then i give up:D

I learned a lot in this thread don't argue with people from the south east even if you back yourself up with facts. and you end up six pages later still no where, Yeah I know.

Bards · 11-04-2008 8:41am

mysterious wrote: »

I think I'm gonna bust you again on facts:D

Firstly I agree with invincibleirish, I've said pretty much what he said in my post at the end. This debate is just nonsense on waterford people demanding AND demanding.

I've gotten over it, cus They're getting a motorway. The fact is it's still by far the smallest regional city so it should not get treated like a city of 100,000. END OF STORY, now quite trophy playing!

Now:D I'm just going to post this for the fun of Bards ignorance AGAIN.
2007
Nenagh 8,722 (15.8% HGV)
Mullinavat 7,192 (13% HGV)

Just for arguement sake, Nenagh bypass is actually missing a junction at present, so no local traffic uses this stretch as this explains why its much lower. At either end of the bypass it more than doubles traffic wise. Mullinavat road has much more local traffic using that counter, as with all the private acceses and the town itself.

Almost 7,500 cars join onto the N7 at the Limerick end of Bypass. So this actually makes the Nenagh Limerick N7 around 16,000 a day.

Traffic is actually decreasing on Mullinavat for 2008.

Now bards when u speak on this topic, its better to know what your talking about.

But all in all If I was to agree with your argument, then I believe the N20 should get priority over at least some sections of N9 at present.

All I am saying is, if you can justify a Motorway for 8,722 vehicles, then you can certaintly justify one for 7,192 going to a regional City and through the heartland of the S.E.; there is not a big difference between the two figures in the overall context. There are also other routes for Mullinvat to New Ross/Rosslare that don't have to use the N9 because it is so bad. When the Waterford City Bypass is built which links into the M9 expect to see the figure increase substantially. This is not just about Waterford, but the Whole S.E as fricatus said, Why does Waterford always have to scrap for the crumbs on the table, Remember in the 60's-early 70's Waterford was bigger than Galway, but Govt action to "Save the West" resulted in massives amounts of exchequer transfers which you now seem to despise happening for the S.E now

P.S I did read the statistics on the NRA Traffic Counter website before posting my last comment, so enough with the personal attacks, and attack the post instead of the poster!!!

merlante · 11-04-2008 10:26am

invincibleirish wrote: »

1. What and how much do you think Waterford airport needs, what market is it aiming for, give me a round number 10 million? 20? 100 million investment?.

If you'd read my post you would recognise that I wasn't arguing for any funding for Waterford Airport -- I was justifying the survival package that was given to it a few years ago. That very small amount of funding (much less than 10 million iirc.) has already paid huge dividends and will continue to.

If I have a gripe it's that every other regional airport has a PSO route to Dublin except Waterford. Not very fair is it? Something more equitable should be put in place so that there is a level playing field between the airports.

invincibleirish wrote: »

2. the N20 connects Cork/Limerick, its AADT is 14k vehicles a day,it too is "a truly awful, dangerous road", this road deserves priority over any project that carries smaller numbers.

I accept that in principle, but what you are ignoring is that every such decision is strategic as well ameliorative. Investment fixes a problem but it also establishes a trend. For example, Dublin will always have the strongest argument for infrastructural investment, but if we always give to Dublin in proportion to its needs versus the rest of the country then we will always drive the development of that city which in turn will create more problems which in turn will drive up the need for infrastructure in Dublin. The cycle is only broken by the introduction of some strategy, which on the surface of it is unfair to Dubliners, but which in the long run is good for the country.

It's the same with any other case where a simple metric such as 'number of vehicles on a road' is used to determine delivery. It's a good indicator, yes, but it's not the only guide. A depressed city and region such as Waterford and the south east could well account for low numbers of traffic on portions of the N9, whereas a more prosperous west could well account for relatively high amounts of traffic. Similarly Cork and Limerick and their respective regions are doing quite well. If this is the case, then strategically it would be a very poor move to punish Waterford and the south east by withdrawing or delaying investment, due to low traffic figures, as this would mitigate against the delivery of further infrastructure in the future, as the gap in performance between Waterford and other cities increases (due on the surface of it to a sensible policy of giving where the need is greatest).

The reason we have a spatial strategy (albeit a poor one) is to acknowledge the fact that if we keep going the way we're going there will be a pattern of development that is not in the national interest.

invincibleirish wrote: »

3. the NSS is not worth the paper its written on, pay no attention to it, the Government certainly does not.

It's crap, but it's a good idea. The gateways fund nonetheless exists and a lot of money will be spent through it.

invincibleirish wrote: »

4. Waterford is no different to the rest of the country, every region has its own perceived infrastructural deficit, no region gets infrastructure whose delivery is "automatic".

Effectively automatic. The infrastructural deficiencies suffered by Waterford and the south east have until recently been acute, and by no means imagined or 'perceived'. There are objective measures of such things.

invincibleirish wrote: »

5. i have a fair idea of how to decide on infrastructural spending on a national basis. focus on where infrastructure is needed most. the WRC is under construction whilst the interconnecter is still plans on a drawing board.

The will lead to the cycles outlined above where the 'winners' of the 20th century become the 'winners' of the 21st. Cities and regions, with the exception of Dublin, do not have the independent capacity to generate wealth that they once had. Therefore, their development and relative development is guided by government policy -- as it is in most modern countries. Ireland should be planned as most European countries are, and not left to fight and squable for investment on a playing field that is not level.

We need some kind of a spatial strategy. Spending sheerly on the basis of need only reinforces bad planning.

Zoney · 11-04-2008 10:40am

mysterious wrote: »

Almost 7,500 cars join onto the N7 at the Limerick end of Bypass. So this actually makes the Nenagh Limerick N7 around 16,000 a day.

That's irrelevant. Traffic is not only low on the Nenagh bypass, but between Nenagh and Roscrea as well.

All the interurbans bar the M1 (afaik) have sections in the middle with pathetic amounts of traffic, yet for strategic reasons are quite rightly being built as motorway all the way. The case of the M9 is no different, because up to the N10 junction, it actually has traffic volumes for which motorway is needed to cater for future growth (almost capacity of 2+1 already just north of current N10 junction).

We have pages going no-where because there are too many people who have an outright anti-Waterford or anti-regional stance and understandably others don't agree with that.

Bards · 11-04-2008 11:34am

Zoney wrote: »

That's irrelevant. Traffic is not only low on the Nenagh bypass, but between Nenagh and Roscrea as well.

All the interurbans bar the M1 (afaik) have sections in the middle with pathetic amounts of traffic, yet for strategic reasons are quite rightly being built as motorway all the way. The case of the M9 is no different, because up to the N10 junction, it actually has traffic volumes for which motorway is needed to cater for future growth (almost capacity of 2+1 already just north of current N10 junction).

We have pages going no-where because there are too many people who have an outright anti-Waterford or anti-regional stance and understandably others don't agree with that.

A good impartial answer to which I wholeheartedly agree with - Now let's leave it there and get back on topic

merlante · 11-04-2008 2:38pm

mysterious wrote: »

Basics

Smaller the city the smaller the road. The N9 deserves to be in more **** than any of the inter urbans, part of the Galway N6 is in sh!t too. but things have to be put on list of order. Starting which route needs work on first. Waterford comes last on every list of the inter urbans so get over it.

But hell what point is this thread now, Waterford folks here have to have an answer for everything lol..

The facts shut a few up though:p

Oh here if that's not enough,, Then i give up:D

I learned a lot in this thread don't argue with people from the south east even if you back yourself up with facts. and you end up six pages later still no where, Yeah I know.

This is the biggest load of rubbish I've heard yet. Do you think that motorways are built just for regional cities? They are built for entire regions, because whether a city is 50,000 people or 70,000 people it doesn't matter, neither population comes close to justifying a motorway. You'd need a regional population of something like 400,000+ to justify it.

The south east is one of the more populous regions, and Waterford, though the smallest city by 20,000 people, has a dormitory town, Tramore, a few miles outside the city, which has a population of 10,000 and a number of biggish towns in close proximity (New Ross, Carrick-On-Suir). There are no towns of any kind of size near Galway. In terms of a 15 mile radius of each of the cities, Waterford would more than likely come out larger than Galway.

Waterford should be ahead of Galway on that basis, but there's no reason why these projects cannot be run in conjunction.

Maybe you just shouldn't spout any old rubbish when there's people from the south east about.

mysterious · 11-04-2008 3:00pm

merlante wrote: »

This is the biggest load of rubbish I've heard yet. Do you think that motorways are built just for regional cities? They are built for entire regions, because whether a city is 50,000 people or 70,000 people it doesn't matter, neither population comes close to justifying a motorway. You'd need a regional population of something like 400,000+ to justify it.

The south east is one of the more populous regions, and Waterford, though the smallest city by 20,000 people, has a dormitory town, Tramore, a few miles outside the city, which has a population of 10,000 and a number of biggish towns in close proximity (New Ross, Carrick-On-Suir). There are no towns of any kind of size near Galway. In terms of a 15 mile radius of each of the cities, Waterford would more than likely come out larger than Galway.

Waterford should be ahead of Galway on that basis, but there's no reason why these projects cannot be run in conjunction.

Maybe you just shouldn't spout any old rubbish when there's people from the south east about.

I didn't say motorways should just be built to the cities. Bar your first paragraph the rest of your post is a matter of opinion. Ive even clearly stated on many threads that the current inter urbans is badly planned out and a waste of money. But they are getting built now, so I'm not begruding any of the new roads.

Your also extremely hypocritical.:p

In your first paragraph you state a motorway should not be built to a city at 50,000 or 70,000

But In the second paragraph you state Waterford has a few towns near by, so Waterford should be favoured a motorway over Galway etc. So your actually going against what you said in the first paragraph.

Your obviously from the southeast judging by this post:D everything I say is probably rubbish, except my facts and some points I've made here

I think I'm clear in my post. Anyhoo.

mysterious · 11-04-2008 3:18pm

Zoney wrote: »

That's irrelevant. Traffic is not only low on the Nenagh bypass, but between Nenagh and Roscrea as well.

All the interurbans bar the M1 (afaik) have sections in the middle with pathetic amounts of traffic, yet for strategic reasons are quite rightly being built as motorway all the way. The case of the M9 is no different, because up to the N10 junction, it actually has traffic volumes for which motorway is needed to cater for future growth (almost capacity of 2+1 already just north of current N10 junction).

We have pages going no-where because there are too many people who have an outright anti-Waterford or anti-regional stance and understandably others don't agree with that.

Zoney I know all that....
But it all sounds so silly. You state the M9 is needed from the N10 intersection. Quite rightly. but You could say that nonsense about every single road in the country. Some sections of inter urban roads are busier than other's no point going with your argument at this stage of marginally upgrading busy sections and leaving gaps in between.

Nenagh- Roscrea is midway inter urban traffic and it will be at it's lowest as with any other inter urban at midpoint. I just stated a fact that the lowest trafficked section of N7 is the Nenagh Bypass. It's relevant to my answer to Bards post.:)

My whole point is Roads should be prioritied, better planned in a grid layout. The M9 is not needed. N11 would suited perfectly, or the N8 going along the N78/N79 which is the old Kilkenny-Waterford road. This topic has really outdated.

Waterford Whinge (for and against)

Comments