Plan to make Dublin city centre car free

dereko1969 · 08-05-2008 10:33am

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Committee also heard from Departmental Officials and drew some very interesting facts out of the murky Civil Service corridors such as the Departments total lack of knowledge as to how many unlicenced bus operators are out there.

How many unlicensed guns are there in the country?

Licenses are issued for routes not for individual buses so even comparing the number of buses on the vehicle register in Shannon against the number of routes licensed would not throw up any sort of an accurate figure, also take into account the number of buses for private hire that may occasionally do work for bus eireann etc that do not require route licensing. How would you get the figure for unlicensed buses?

monument · 08-05-2008 3:03pm

Bee wrote: »

...public transport is part of the solution an integrated transport plan with the various agencies and most importantley car driving commuters must be brought into place.

Sorry to be crude, but I think you're missing the point - this plan aims to bring car driving commuters "into place".

That is, into their very small place in the margins.

Cork_Rebel · 08-05-2008 6:17pm

Hopefully they'll allow for adequate lanes for cyclists and motor bikes, give the motorist more options than just the bus without compromising on the speed of bus transit.

And more than just a token gesture of a dotted line for cyclists which to be fair most bus drivers respect.

Will taxis be allowed to use it? If so hopefully you won't get some wealthy opportuntistic people buying a easily available means of using bus lanes.

bazzer · 08-05-2008 7:42pm

Cork_Rebel wrote: »

And more than just a token gesture of a dotted line for cyclists which to be fair most bus drivers respect.

Just to be clear, a 'dotted' line marking the edge of a cycle lane means that portion of roadway can be legally shared by both cycles AND other traffic.

A continuous line means that other traffic must NOT transgress into the cycle lane.

AlekSmart · 09-05-2008 12:50am

Quote Dereko1969: "Licenses are issued for routes not for individual buses so even comparing the number of buses on the vehicle register in Shannon against the number of routes licensed would not throw up any sort of an accurate figure, also take into account the number of buses for private hire that may occasionally do work for bus eireann etc that do not require route licensing. How would you get the figure for unlicensed buses?"

Oddly enough for the past 2 years or so all Dublin Bus vehicles have been displaying a statutory Vehicle Specific Operators Licence disc Issued by the Dept of Transport Road Passenger Licencing Section.

This disc carries dire warnings about its display and the fact that it MUST be returned to the Dept if the vehicle changes hands or is otherwise removed from service.

Mind you Dereko1969 does have a valid point re the guns...its prob far easier to import an AK47 than it is to smuggle in an AN68 !!

murphaph · 09-05-2008 9:44am

First comment on this but short term this has to be a good thing. However! medium to longer term we should displace cars further from the centre and then also remove buses from this central spine (Parnell Sq-O'Connell St-Westmoreland StCollege Green-Dame St) and make it pedestrian only like Marienplatz in Munich.

See here. That is pretty much the centre of the city of Munich. The main train station is just to the west but the area of interest os from the oval paved area (Karlsplatz) east to the large rectangular square (Marienplatz). Please note the large number of pedestrians here and compare to the few numbers of vehicles on the main arterial routes. Public transport works.

mackerski · 09-05-2008 11:28pm

In the case of Marienplatz, it's worth realising that it was in the past the junction of two tram lines, one north-south, the other east-west. When these were replaced by U- and S-Bahn respectively, they dug up the tram lines and all trams in the city centre take somewhat different routes.

One for us to consider if we still insist on joining our own two tram lines.

AlekSmart · 10-05-2008 2:17am

In the case of Munich,and other German cities,how much was contributed by the RAF and Air Marshall Harris as it would seem that in many cases,medieval cities not unlike Dublin in layout were suddenly obliterated and a blank canvas was left to redraw the lines..?

murphaph · 10-05-2008 9:45am

AlekSmart wrote: »

In the case of Munich,and other German cities,how much was contributed by the RAF and Air Marshall Harris as it would seem that in many cases,medieval cities not unlike Dublin in layout were suddenly obliterated and a blank canvas was left to redraw the lines..?

This apsect is often overplayed actually. Many german cities were left untouched as they presented no military target (some were targeted for morale damage such as Dresden of course) but even those that were flattened often didn't build their undergrounds until the bulk of the city was already rebuilt-Munich and Cologne did not build any underground until 20 years or so after the war ended. The Economic Miracle (who else has had one of those recently?) was far more responsible for Germany's ability to build their networks than any works by the RAF it should be said. The section Mackerski talks about (east-west S-Bahn intersecting with north-south U-Bahn at Marienplatz) was primarily built for......the 1972 Olympics! Munich was going to go with a pre-metro like Stuttgart/Cologne but decided on full blown high platform heavy rail underground when it got the nod from the IOC.

AlekSmart · 10-05-2008 1:24pm

Thanks for the clarification Murphaph..so it really does boil back down to having some form of cohesive,integrated planning then ?

It would seem that the German planning model,in public transport terms at least,involved individuals and agencies which were in actual agreement as to a plan ?

As far as I can see,even with the shiny new proposed DTA,Dublin will still not have any centralized Public Transport Planning agency and therefore will continue to depend on inter-agency co-operation or whatever buzzword the Minister chooses.

Ah well Fan go bFheicimid...??

cdebru · 10-05-2008 1:37pm

murphaph wrote: »

First comment on this but short term this has to be a good thing. However! medium to longer term we should displace cars further from the centre and then also remove buses from this central spine (Parnell Sq-O'Connell St-Westmoreland StCollege Green-Dame St) and make it pedestrian only like Marienplatz in Munich.

See here. That is pretty much the centre of the city of Munich. The main train station is just to the west but the area of interest os from the oval paved area (Karlsplatz) east to the large rectangular square (Marienplatz). Please note the large number of pedestrians here and compare to the few numbers of vehicles on the main arterial routes. Public transport works.

You could take an aerial view of Dublin and point at Grafton St and Henry St and say much the same thing with large pedestrian st with Luas connection just off it namely Stephen Green and Abbey St. There is plenty of traffic in that picture at either end of the pedestrian area just as there is in Dublin.

By all mean make O'Connell St a pesdestrian area just make sure that there are alternative ways through the city first and that you are not removing buses and lumping them into traffic jams on already congested side streets

cdebru · 10-05-2008 1:40pm

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=53.342022&lon=-6.259944&z=17.2&r=0&src=ggl

in fact here you go

murphaph · 10-05-2008 8:11pm

cdebru wrote: »

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=53.342022&lon=-6.259944&z=17.2&r=0&src=ggl

in fact here you go

Click on the other imagery which shows Dublin in the am (shadows cast from the sun in the east) though and look at the quays and arterial routes, then compare to (for example) Loepoldstr. in Munich which is a main arterial route to/from the A9 motorway north.

Anyone who has experienced Munich public transport and indeed driving in that city will tell you it is an example to emulate in every way possible. The DTA needs first and foremost to formulate (as Alek says) a comprehensive plan for where we're going to be in 5, 10, 20 years time and begin working towards that. We will have to face the facts that a minority will lose out for the greater good (example-39 bus should completely cease driving through Clonsilla village with its small population and clogged medieval roads whilst the new Ongar Distributor S4 with buslanes throughout lies idle most of the day. The DTA needs to get buses onto these new QBCs as much as possible and get people to walk further to a better bus service. The bus is key and always will be.

cdebru · 11-05-2008 12:06pm

murphaph wrote: »

Click on the other imagery which shows Dublin in the am (shadows cast from the sun in the east) though and look at the quays and arterial routes, then compare to (for example) Loepoldstr. in Munich which is a main arterial route to/from the A9 motorway north.

Anyone who has experienced Munich public transport and indeed driving in that city will tell you it is an example to emulate in every way possible. The DTA needs first and foremost to formulate (as Alek says) a comprehensive plan for where we're going to be in 5, 10, 20 years time and begin working towards that. We will have to face the facts that a minority will lose out for the greater good (example-39 bus should completely cease driving through Clonsilla village with its small population and clogged medieval roads whilst the new Ongar Distributor S4 with buslanes throughout lies idle most of the day. The DTA needs to get buses onto these new QBCs as much as possible and get people to walk further to a better bus service. The bus is key and always will be.

I agree 100% the effect the more direct 128 has had on the around the world in 80 days route 27 on the malahide QBC is a clear example.

The same can be seen on the 4 in ballymun and the tour of ballymun in the 13

KC61 · 12-05-2008 8:55am

murphaph wrote: »

Click on the other imagery which shows Dublin in the am (shadows cast from the sun in the east) though and look at the quays and arterial routes, then compare to (for example) Loepoldstr. in Munich which is a main arterial route to/from the A9 motorway north.

Anyone who has experienced Munich public transport and indeed driving in that city will tell you it is an example to emulate in every way possible. The DTA needs first and foremost to formulate (as Alek says) a comprehensive plan for where we're going to be in 5, 10, 20 years time and begin working towards that. We will have to face the facts that a minority will lose out for the greater good (example-39 bus should completely cease driving through Clonsilla village with its small population and clogged medieval roads whilst the new Ongar Distributor S4 with buslanes throughout lies idle most of the day. The DTA needs to get buses onto these new QBCs as much as possible and get people to walk further to a better bus service. The bus is key and always will be.

And in fairness to Dublin Bus, this is what has been happening. In the last 18 months a variety of new high frequency bus routes that take direct routings have been initiated on several QBCs, and most of them continue across the city centre to a point on the other side of the city:

Malahide QBC - 128
Ballymun and Blackrock QBC - 4 and 4A
Finglas QBC - 140
South Clondalkin QBC - 151
Bray QBC - 145

The Templeogue QBC has also seen a large increase in buses on the 15/15A/15B and 74/74A.

Next on the hitlist is the Blanchardstown QBC, with a new route to Ongar by-passing Blanchardstown and Clonsilla in the next month or so, and the 37 being extended to the Blanchardstown Centre.

Unfortunately, the DoT have instructed Dublin Bus that they cannot introduce new or improved services on either the Lucan or Swords QBC pending the result of the current EU investigation into subsidised services. Hence the 141 (Swords/Rathmines) and enhanced Leixlip, Maynooth and Celbridge services have remained in abeyance.

Plan to make Dublin city centre car free

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