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Ivor Bell arrested and charged in Jean McConville murder investigation

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  • 21-03-2014 10:54pm
    #1
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭


    There have been some major developments in the investigation into the murder of Jean McConville.

    The PSNI have this evening released a statement confirming that they have charged a 77 year old with aiding and abetting murder and membership of the IRA as part of their investigation into the murder.

    Media are reporting that the man that has been charged is Ivor Bell, a well known member of the IRA and former Cheif of Staff of the Army Council.

    Ivor Bell was part of a delegation that held secret talks with the British government in 1972, the same year that Jean McConville was murdered. Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were also present on the delegation.

    Man (77) charged in connection with the murder of mother-of-ten Jean McConville
    FORMER senior republican Ivor Bell will appear in court tomorrow on a charge connected to the murder of mother of ten, Jean McConville more than 40 years ago.

    Jean McConville: Ivor Bell charged in connection with murder
    former IRA leader has been charged in connection with the abduction and murder of Jean McConville.

    The Belfast mother-of-10 was taken by the IRA from her flat in December 1972.

    Ivor Bell, 77, who was a senior leader in the Provisional IRA in the 1970s, was arrested at his home in Andersonstown on Tuesday.

    It will be interesting to see if information now comes to light surrounding the murder that was not previously in the public domain.


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    #2
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Ivor Bell hasn't been involved with the Provisionals since the early 1980s by the way.


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    #3
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Ivor Bell hasn't been involved with the Provisionals since the early 1980s by the way.

    Did senior people in the IRA / Sinn Féin make sure that he was removed from the provisional scene after it became apparent that the charge of being an informer, which was used an excuse to murder Jean, was absolutely baseless?

    If so, then surely certain people in IRA / SF are not being honest when they claim that they know nothing about the disappearance and murder of Jean. Thankfully this latest development provides hope to those who want to see the truth, and nothing but the whole truth, emerge. At the very least this might help provide some closure for the family - and let this dark chapter in Irish history be put behind us.


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    #4
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,594 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    There's nothing sweeter than justice catching up with someone. If indeed this man is involved he deserves no leniency.


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    #5
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    Hopefully this will force the First Gloucesters regiment to release the the diaries they were kept on their tour of duty in the Divis Flats complex. The only british regiment that has their records sealed for the next forty years. If that sort of information was released it might shed some light on the units contacts in the community, when they were exposed they were not protected. It could shed some light on the radios the regiment denied having in their possession. For those that are not familiar with these sort of devices. Google The Norwegian made stornophone radio available to some platoons in NI in early 1972. Very agent friendly.


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    #6
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Did senior people in the IRA / Sinn Féin make sure that he was removed from the provisional scene after it became apparent that the charge of being an informer, which was used an excuse to murder Jean, was absolutely baseless?

    According to some he was dismissed from the movement after launching a challenge against Adams' political strategy on the grounds it detracted from the armed struggle. This was around 1984 I think. Likewise it never "became apparent" that McConville wasn't an informer, in all likelihood she was and that's the reason she was killed.

    While I can see why the IRA killed her nobody can defend her subsequent disappearance. If you're going to claim the mantle of legitimacy and kill people in a given conflict then at least have the gumption to stand over your decision.


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    #7
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    This worth a read, for anyone interested in the facts. Nobody can say that Ed Malloney was a supporter of the IRA.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthebrokenelbow.com%2F2013%2F07%2F14%2Fplea-to-mcconville-family-join-us-in-bid-for-british-army-papers%2F&ei=VWktU-5rscHsBqi9gNAG&usg=AFQjCNEeogah46TyqE9EMgfP0F_a5DJ8EQ


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    #8
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,008 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    Hopefully this will force the First Gloucesters regiment to release the the diaries they were kept on their tour of duty in the Divis Flats complex. The only british regiment that has their records sealed for the next forty years. If that sort of information was released it might shed some light on the units contacts in the community, when they were exposed they were not protected. It could shed some light on the radios the regiment denied having in their possession. For those that are not familiar with these sort of devices. Google The Norwegian made stornophone radio available to some platoons in NI in early 1972. Very agent friendly.

    I'm not sure what the above post is referring to but it has a whiff of whataboutery about it.

    But 5 posts into a thread is a little late for whataboutery


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    #9
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    I'm not sure what the above post is referring to but it has a whiff of whataboutery about it.

    But 5 posts into a thread is a little late for whataboutery

    Give over. It's actually a fair and credible assessment of the whole episode that examines the facts as opposed to a nonsense fairy-tale about the bogeymen in the IRA killing her for the craic.


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    #10
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,008 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Give over. It's actually a fair and credible assessment of the whole episode that examines the facts as opposed to a nonsense fairy-tale about the bogeymen in the IRA killing her for the craic.

    Well to me the only "fact" that is relevant is that a mother of 10 was abducted and murdered and her body hidden, left undiscovered for 30 years.

    If someone involved is convicted, even 40 plus years on, then then its a good thing.


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    #11
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Give over. It's actually a fair and credible assessment of the whole episode that examines the facts as opposed to a nonsense fairy-tale about the bogeymen in the IRA killing her for the craic.

    Is there any reason for murdering her that legitimises that heinous act?

    Should this go to trial, witnesses will be called and evidence heard.

    However no evidence sought or provided can condone murdering her.


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    #12
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    comongethappy wrote: »
    Is there any reason for murdering her that legitimises that heinous act?

    ........

    ...to prevent the death of IRA members and members of the republican/nationalist community.


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    #13
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...to prevent the death of IRA members and members of the republican/nationalist community.

    Realistic post, and long awaited.


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    #14
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...to prevent the death of IRA members and members of the republican/nationalist community.
    Can't a broadly similar argument be made for the murders of Rosemary Nelson and Pat Finucane?


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    #15
    REXER
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...to prevent the death of IRA members and members of the republican/nationalist community.

    So how do you feel about the death sentence?


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    #16
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    REXER wrote: »
    So how do you feel about the death sentence?

    You should read what the French, Polish, Slavs, Italians and several other countries under the rule of Hitler did to Nazi informers. War is War it is devastating to all sides, cut out the crocodile tears and move on.


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    #17
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    Can't a broadly similar argument be made for the murders of Rosemary Nelson and Pat Finucane?

    No.


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    #18
    REXER
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    You should read what the French, Polish, Slavs, Italians and several other countries under the rule of Hitler did to Nazi informers. War is War it is devastating to all sides, cut out the crocodile tears and move on.

    Answer the question!

    How do you feel about the death sentence?


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    #19
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    REXER wrote: »
    Answer the question!

    How do you feel about the death sentence?

    When did you put that question to me.


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    #20
    REXER
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    When did you put that question to me.

    When you responded to me asking it of Nodin!


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    #21
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...to prevent the death of IRA members and members of the republican/nationalist community.

    Can it be proven (with so much time passed) that murdering this woman saved lives?

    If the charge does eventually lead to a trial, it will be tough for the defence to argue that the murder of Jean McConville by a terrorist group was a 'necessity' or legitimate act of war.


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    #22
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    Can't a broadly similar argument be made for the murders of Rosemary Nelson and Pat Finucane?


    ...can't see how.
    Rexer wrote:
    So how do you feel about the death sentence?

    In peacetime its unjustified. Ideally nobody should ever have to die for any reason, be it political or otherwise.


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    #23
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    comongethappy wrote: »
    Can it be proven (with so much time passed) that murdering this woman saved lives?.

    That was the motivation behind the killing. It is a fact that - particularily in the early 70's - the British were none too careful in who they were targeting and none too pushed about it either. While it is far from wild speculation to say that injury and death could well have led from any information given, it will obviously never be 100% provable.
    comongethappy wrote: »
    If the charge does eventually lead to a trial, it will be tough for the defence to argue that the murder of Jaan McConville by a terrorist group was a 'necessity' or legitimate act of war.

    It's impossible, because the IRA is still listed as an illegal organisation and so on. However that doesn't change the actual reasoning behind the killing, whether that was 100% justified or otherwise. It was believed at the time that she was an informant. She was dealt with harshly, but not exceptionally. It wasn't done out of spite, malice or evil, or celebrated with cackles.


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    #24
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    You should read what the French, Polish, Slavs, Italians and several other countries under the rule of Hitler did to Nazi informers. War is War it is devastating to all sides, cut out the crocodile tears and move on.

    Just to put this to you then. Would you more or less write off in a similar way the Bloody Sunday killings, internment, the killing of IRA members in Gibraltar, Dublin and Monaghan bombings and so on as "war is war".

    Not referring to you here specifically but i find it odd how Republicans can defend the killing of Jean McConville and then appear in another thread complaining how no one has been brought to justice over the Bloody Sunday killings.


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    #25
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Just to put this to you then. Would you more or less write off in a similar way the Bloody Sunday killings, internment, the killing of IRA members in Gibraltar, Dublin and Monaghan bombings and so on as "war is war".

    Not referring to you here specifically but i find it odd how Republicans can defend the killing of Jean McConville and then appear in another thread complaining how no one has been brought to justice over the Bloody Sunday killings.

    Bit confused as to how persons not party to the conflict (victims on bloody sunday) can be compared to somebody who was shot for being an informer..........


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    #26
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Nodin wrote: »
    Bit confused as to how persons not party to the conflict (victims on bloody sunday) can be compared to somebody who was shot for being an informer..........

    We have no proof that Jean McConville definitievely was an informer. The Paras claimed they were shooting at IRA gunmen.But as Busted Flat said war is war.


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    #27
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...can't see how.
    Well, let’s see. In both cases we have people who are not actual combatants but who by their actions have given assistance to one side, or to be precise, were perceived to have so done. And in so doing would have come to be regarded as, to use the sinister term the IRA favoured, “legitimate targets”

    The essential argument of those who take exception to the McConville case getting the on-going attention that it gets it that it is an emotive argument; plenty of people went to early graves because of the conflict but the McConville case is remembered because she was a widow with a large family.

    But those that take this “get over yourself” line in relation to this case seem to want to play the very same emotional card for victims on their side of the conflict.


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    #28
    REXER
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...can't see how.



    In peacetime its unjustified. Ideally nobody should ever have to die for any reason, be it political or otherwise.

    Why do you say that in peace time its unjustified?


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    #29
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    We have no proof that Jean McConville definitievely was an informer. .

    It was believed that was the case.
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    The Paras claimed they were shooting at IRA gunmen.But as Busted Flat said war is war.


    ...which was evidently a nonsense from the getgo. What happened in Derry happened from India to Kenya to Aden. Steady accurate fire targeting men of "arms bearing age" - go in hard, teach the natives a lesson. The exact same pattern occurred in Ballymurphy. It's policing as Africa knew it for over a century. If you want to play 'but what about...' you might at least try to find comparable instances.


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    #30
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    REXER wrote: »
    Why do you say that in peace time its unjustified?


    ...there's prisons, a functioning state....it's rather a different set-up than the chaos of war.


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    #31
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Just to put this to you then. Would you more or less write off in a similar way the Bloody Sunday killings, internment, the killing of IRA members in Gibraltar, Dublin and Monaghan bombings and so on as "war is war".

    Not referring to you here specifically but i find it odd how Republicans can defend the killing of Jean McConville and then appear in another thread complaining how no one has been brought to justice over the Bloody Sunday killings.

    Would you more or less write off in a similar way the Bloody Sunday killings, internment, the killing of IRA members in Gibraltar, Dublin and Monaghan bombings and so on as "war is war".


    These actions you describe were carried out by so called peace keepers, or so they were claimed by the tyrants that controlled the brit army and government at the time. I am delighted you mentioned the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, it is the first time a supporter of the brit government acknowledged their responsibility in the massacre of innocent shoppers on a Saturday evening in Dublin and Monaghan. Now ask your UK friends to release the files in connection with this atrocity, it may bring closure to the families that were effected by your governments actions.


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