Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Yixian · 04-04-2010 5:58pm

Aard wrote: »

In fairness, if they build a Delta-junction in front of Trinity, there won't be much space left for a public square. It looks like one or the other $:\$

At some point you have to put your foot down and say look, the rest of Dublin is completely given up to heavy traffic, almost more than any other European capital, here we are having a public square damn it! At College Green, pedestrians can come first for once!

Yixian · 04-04-2010 8:25pm

We're now accepting mockup submissions on our facebook group, and we're providing a sample image to work from.

Here's my first attempt:

Roryhy · 04-04-2010 8:36pm

The cobbles look killer but otherwise it looks pretty good, the buildings on college green are pretty special, this could turn into a master stroke for the capital and become a serious attraction!

Plowman · 04-04-2010 8:40pm

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Yixian · 04-04-2010 10:23pm

Plowman wrote: »

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Behind the camera.

Actually I forgot to add two stone arches rather like the Fusilier's arch (or possibly ornate cast iron) on the entrances to the square on Westmoreland and Grafton St.. in fact I will add those in later.

I definitely think statues should be incorporated into the fountain but I can't quite think of who...

I was also thinking there could perhaps be cast iron statues of some of the rebels in various, photographic or at least "historically accurate" poses dotted around the square. Would be quite a draw.

I think I'll move the bench too, more to where the pavement meets the street now.

Plowman · 04-04-2010 10:30pm

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Yixian · 04-04-2010 10:34pm

Plowman wrote: »

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For the fountain itself I was thinking maybe increasing the height of the one there by 50% and surrounding the big spurt in the middle by the 3 goddesses: Ériu, Banba and Fódla.

Plowman · 04-04-2010 10:40pm

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Yixian · 04-04-2010 10:44pm

I know most modern architecture aficionados cannot stand people building neo-classicism today, but I actually think that the goddesses would look nice rather in the style of the Trevi Fountain:

FCO%20Rome%20-%20Trevi%20Fountain%20detail%2003%203008x2000.jpg

FCO%20Rome%20-%20Trevi%20Fountain%20detail%2003%203008x2000.jpg

Either in stone or iron.

here's a nice statues of Ériu:

There are few of Banbha and Fódla, but Banbha is associated with war and fertility and Fódla is accompanied by lots of little floating faerie companions.

These guys could do with a bit of a revival.

Plowman · 04-04-2010 11:06pm

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Yixian · 04-04-2010 11:13pm

The way I see it, Ireland was robbed of it's own vernacular classical period so it should be allowed to experiment with the style now. The whole world shouldn't be on the same stylistic timeline - sure, countries shouldn't get lazy and stick with the same style forever and ever, but I want to see an Irish, celtic take on classicalism, that being grand, stone, realistic depictions of myths or historical figures with heavy symbolism in the details.

But that aside, just the context of the surroundings probably calls for something less modern. A city should have lots of variation but in this spot specifically I think something modern would be a mistake. Original and vernacular yes, modern no, imo.

Architects are pretty much laughed at for not being completely new and original though, so I imagine I'll have a lot of criticism even from people who secretly deep down love the idea xD

Plowman · 04-04-2010 11:44pm

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Yixian · 04-04-2010 11:49pm

Ah well I wasn't thinking anything too imitatory, just bold, realistic in style and heavyyyy with symbolism. Do love some symbolism.

That said an original style could easily win me over, but like you say, nothing like the Floozie xD

Empire o de Sun · 06-04-2010 9:42pm

I'm just really concerned that the Luas is taken into account and that if it is being done then maybe there should be a big bang and do the whole lot. But the Luas lines should link and share platforms so as to increase interaction between the lines. Each line here has two platforms to increase capacity for a major city centre stop (platform either side and a large 5 m island platform). I've just showed the stop with a thick line either side of the tracks. The platform is 50 m for possible longer trams on the Green (sandyford) line, this is 10 m longer than the current 40 m (or 43 m) trams.

If someone can jazz up the image that'd be cool. cos I've no idea. It is to scale as much as possible.

Empire o de Sun · 06-04-2010 9:53pm

Then you could have an integrated system

6034073

Typewriter · 07-04-2010 2:09am

green_jesus wrote: »

I never knew about "King Billy's statue" until I googled it just there.

It looks well I'd be in favor of having it reinstated.

http://www.politics.ie/history/9021-king-williams-statue-dublin.html

How about instead of reinstating controversial king billy how about replicating the podium and putting an Irish elk on top like the one from the old pound coins?

As a non-political icon of Ireland It would look class with the Lucan Luas passing on ether side and also would be a hit with the tourists.

Just a thought.

FreudianSlippers · 07-04-2010 2:16am

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Then you could have an integrated system

it is crazy not to have an integrated system imo.

Carawaystick · 07-04-2010 11:15pm

So how do you get from Phibsboro to Rathmines with this crazy scheme? get a bus to a rail link and another bus?

How do the Brigade or the cops get from Pearse St to anywhere that involves crossing College green?

How do you cross the city when there's no public transport operating?

The University and Temple bar provide road blocks enough crossing the city, without putting a 1.2 - 2km roadblock on transport.

dRNk SAnTA · 08-04-2010 12:10am

When we get the pedestrianised College Green of our dreams, the buses will have to be re-routed around Trinity, so we should consider what we could do in the future.

So here is my awful MS Paint diagram. I mentioned this kind of thing previously, but a map is better.

I've drawn:
the Luas Bx Line,
The southern entrance to O'Connell St Metro Station
Highlighted the two DART stations. Remember Pearse Station will be serving two DART lines when DART Underground is finished.

This idea is just off the top of my head. I don't know what side-effects it might have to car journeys, which I think should have lowest priority in this area anyway.

I've only looked at the bus routes I know, which are the ones that head for N11 or Blackrock. Obviously there are also ones that go to South/South West Dublin and these need their own diagrams and different routes.

Some benefits here:

It brings buses right to our DART stations, allows easy connections (if we ever get integrated ticketing)

Bring people to the Pearse Street area which could do with regeneration

Involes the Hawkins House area, which is a big site that owned by the state, and will definitely need redevelopment soon. This site could be interesting, some people have suggested it as a location for the new abbey theatre. It is worth noting the location anyway.

There are obviously lots of ways to tinker with the routes, but having some of the biggest bus routes travel down Westland Row looks like a good idea to me.

Am I mad? Would this not be possible or desirable? Constructive criticism please!

murphaph · 08-04-2010 9:08am

Carawaystick wrote: »

So how do you get from Phibsboro to Rathmines with this crazy scheme? get a bus to a rail link and another bus?

How do the Brigade or the cops get from Pearse St to anywhere that involves crossing College green?

How do you cross the city when there's no public transport operating?

The University and Temple bar provide road blocks enough crossing the city, without putting a 1.2 - 2km roadblock on transport.

As nobody is reall advocating this until major upgrades to rail based public transport are made, the logical answer is that you'd take the Luas from St. Peter's Church all the way to Ranelagh where you could either walk to Rathmines or take a connecting bus.

Chuchoter · 09-04-2010 8:11pm

Looks great, but they could never bring it in until the Luas line went all over Dublin. The retailers would be furious, they already have the bus gate. I think they'd have to keep it quite classical, just because of the surrounding buildings.

dRNk SAnTA · 28-04-2010 11:43am

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0428/1224269221820.html

The Irish Times wrote:

Restoration of Dublin to its Georgian glory urged by report

OLIVIA KELLY

CONSTRUCTION OF subterranean traffic routes, removal of trees from College Green, and a prohibition on the use of overhead wires on the new cross-town Luas line are among ambitious proposals for the restoration of Dublin’s historic core in a report to be published tomorrow.

The report, by the Dublin Civic Trust and commissioned by the Dublin City Business Association (DCBA), contains a large number of recommendations which would radically change the appearance of Dublin city centre.

It focuses on the reinstatement of historic Georgian “set pieces”such as the Rotunda Gardens at Parnell Square, and the civic piazza at College Green, as well as the refurbishment of boulevards including Westmoreland Street, Marlborough Street and Grafton Street.

Detailed plans are recommended for these areas which would necessitate removal of most traffic; an increase in pedestrianisation; a ban on bus parking; restoration of derelict buildings and sites; creation of new plazas; reinstatement of granite paving; removal of unnecessary signage, bollards and other “street clutter”; and, in some cases, a complete redesign.

The plans are not costed but the report says their realisation is essential to attract national and international investment to Dublin, retain shoppers and meet the expectations of tourists and citizens.

College Green is the focus for some of the more radical proposals. The area in front of Trinity College and the Bank of Ireland, originally built in 1729 to house parliament, was now “unrecognisable” from the grand civic space it was intended to be, with inappropriately sited and overgrown trees, poor-quality paving and crude engineering works carried out as part of the “bus gate” project, the report said.

The location of trees and public toilets in front of James Gandon’s portico and entrance front to the former House of Lords were particularly unsightly, it said.

The report seeks the pedestrianisation of the majority of the space, the removal of all trees and municipal furniture, the construction of a high-quality paved civic piazza, and the prohibition of overhead power lines proposed as part of the Luas BDX line to connect the north and south of the city.

The prohibition of overhead Luas wires should be extended to O’Connell Bridge, O’Connell Street and the primary streets in the historic core through which the line would pass, it says.

The pedestrianisation of College Green and other important civic areas could be facilitated through the use of underground traffic routes in the city centre – these would reduce congestion but maintain accessibility.

There are similarly ambitious plans for the site of the current Rotunda Hospital at Parnell Square. The original hospital building from the 1750s had become almost entirely lost in a “sea of tarmacadam”, and 20th-century additions had covered much of its gardens, according to the report. The plan seeks the reinstatement of the Rotunda Gardens, which would involve large-scale demolition.

Westmoreland Street is described as “the most prominent and visible stretch of blighted streetscape in the historic city centre”. It has descended into low-grade usages and closed-up shop fronts. It would benefit from pavement widening, an enforcement of the council’s rules on shop-front design and a removal of bus parking. Bus parking had “all but destroyed” the southern end of Marlborough Street, eliminating any other activity. At the northern end, there was scope for a civic plaza in front of the Pro-Cathedral, incorporating grounds of the Department of Education and Science.

The report also envisages the redesign of O’Connell Bridge, a management plan to stop the city becoming “overwhelmed” by taxis, and refurbishment of Grafton Street.
Dublin's historic core: civic trust's recommendations

* Increase in the number of pedestrian areas and the creation of civic plazas at Christchurch, the Pro-Cathedral, College Green, Parnell Square and O’Connell Bridge.
* The widening of pavements and the restoration of historic granite flagstones and kerbing, instead of ugly and discordant repairs using tarmac and poured concrete.
* Prohibition on the use of overhead power lines associated with the proposed Luas cross-city line, at College Green, O’Connell Bridge and the historic streets from St Stephen’s Green to O’Connell Street.
* The enforcement by the council of their shopfront design guidelines which aim to eliminate inappropriate signage and ensure shopfronts are in line with the character of their streets.
* The removal of trees where their location is inappropriate, such as College Green, tree-planting schemes in areas such as O’Connell Bridge, and a reduction in the number of trees in Merrion Square.
* A refurbishment of the Georgian squares and a reinstatement of their residential use. Development levies for redevelopment of listed buildings could be waived to encourage the restoration of Georgian town houses, particularly in the squares.
* An end to the practice of “laying over” or parking out of service buses on many streets, including the quays, Mountjoy Square, Marlborough Street and Westmoreland Street.
* The construction of underground traffic routes which would allow the pedestrianisation of areas such as College Green while still providing access for motorists to the city centre.

Looking forward to reading this report!

murphaph · 28-04-2010 12:33pm

Don't agree with banning overhead power lines for Luas (it would mean the entire existing fleet would be unable to cross "the gap" without some sort of retrofit: $$$$). Overhead power lines for trams can be put up in a sensitive way by suspending them directly from the buildings rather than from their own poles.

As for cutting down the trees on College Green: O'Connell St. MKII: Big mistake.

donvito99 · 28-04-2010 2:31pm

I welcome this. I think Dublin needs some serious beautification.

But I don't agree with it with regards to trees.

We need more!

I also think get rid of the parking at the front and rear of Leinster House/Dáil, very unsightely.

dRNk SAnTA · 28-04-2010 3:31pm

The report might be wrong about the power lines, but the authors are right about the trees!

It's an architectural set piece and should be de-cluttered!

More of this: http://sobreespana.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/plaza-mayor-madrid.jpg

And less of this:

(Image stolen from Fergalr on archiseek.com here)

Aard · 28-04-2010 3:37pm

Move the trees to O'Connell St! :pac:

FreudianSlippers · 28-04-2010 5:54pm

Move the trees anywhere!

BluntGuy · 29-04-2010 3:44pm

Does anyone know where the report could be read or purchased?

I tried the DCBA and Dublin Civic Trust websites and couldn't find it.

oharach · 30-04-2010 6:49pm

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

I agree that there should be no direct connection from the Lucan line to BX South. In fact, I would go as far as to say that we should not be pursuing BXD at all, but FXD (i.e. only Lucan via CC to Broombridge). Metro North will already cover the route from O'Connell Bridge to SSG, and would be extended as planned in tunnel as far as Beechwood. The remainder of the Green line would be upgraded to Metro, which should have happened in the first place to deal with the numbers. There is very little point having a delta junction in College Green and running all three possible route combinations at peak times, because inevitably the capacity is lower on all 3 branches than if they were simply segregated.

And if they do build BXD, and keep F separate, but want a link, it shouldn't be allowed to spoil the plaza, and should be single track down a side street

Thoughts, anyone??

Pete_Cavan · 08-05-2010 1:29pm

oharach wrote: »

I agree that there should be no direct connection from the Lucan line to BX South. In fact, I would go as far as to say that we should not be pursuing BXD at all, but FXD (i.e. only Lucan via CC to Broombridge). Metro North will already cover the route from O'Connell Bridge to SSG, and would be extended as planned in tunnel as far as Beechwood. The remainder of the Green line would be upgraded to Metro, which should have happened in the first place to deal with the numbers. There is very little point having a delta junction in College Green and running all three possible route combinations at peak times, because inevitably the capacity is lower on all 3 branches than if they were simply segregated.

And if they do build BXD, and keep F separate, but want a link, it shouldn't be allowed to spoil the plaza, and should be single track down a side street

Thoughts, anyone??

I posted this on another forum and felt it was also appropriate here.

It does not make any sense to extend luas all the way out to Lucan as light rail systems are not supposed to span such long distances and are best realised in city centre. A heavy rail system would provide a more efficient service with greater capacity.

This could be achieved by building a spur from Kildare rail line at Inchicore, incoporating the stations on propsed Luas Line F1 (Cherry Orchard, Liffey Valley, Lucan, etc.) and extend it further through Leixlip and into Maynooth line.

Luas Line F1 proposals from Fatima to Trinity is a good idea but why stop there? The line could be extended down Pearse Street, with an interchange at Pearse Street Station, a stop at Grand Canal Dock and terminating at Ringsend/Irishtown where depot, turnback facility could be provided more effectively then outside Trinity. Fatima to Ringsend should take priority over Lucan to Trinity.

This would create an east-west/west-east Luas corridor on the south side of city centre, mirroring that on the north side. This would create a route serving all current Red line stops plus those proposed by Line F1 (Christchurch, Trinity College) plus my proposed stops (Pearse Street, Grand Canal Dock, Irishtown).

They could then link this route to existing Red Line by extending it over the Liffey to connect with the existing Red Line at the stop at the Point bringing line F down to Ringsend and link it through the Sam Beckett bridge which has been built to allow tracks across it.. This would create a loop with two east-west/west-east luas lines running through the city centre, one on each side of the river, allowing one line to serve the entire city centre.

With the area served by excellent public transport, then I think the College Green - O'Connell Street corridor should be off limits to cars, with only Luas Lines F & BXD (eventually) and certain buses passing through it. A pedrestrian corridor stretching from the top of O'Connell Street to St. Stephens Green, with College Green plaza in the middle would be a great addition to the city. Removing unnecessary traffic (Im sure most of you wont see cars as unnecessary here but anyway) from this area would make it easier and safer to route luas and buses along it. Maybe incorporate a dedicated cycle route alone here as well.

Car drivers would have to be accomodated with alternative routes throught the city centre. Some type of deterrent, congestion charge or otherwise, is needed, if only to stop drivers ctting through town to avoid M50 toll. With improved public transport (metro, Luas BXD, Dart Underground) there would be less need for cars anyway. It would need extensive research and planning but Im sure it could be done.

Aard · 08-05-2010 5:13pm

+1 for pedestrianisation of O'Connell Street. Make it into O'Connell Square. No buses, no cars, and no trams for that matter. It would revitalise the district, particularly the areas east of OCS. The way it is atm, it's difficult for people to cross the street, with most of the shoppers staying on the Henry St side.

Blisterman · 10-06-2010 12:06pm

Here's college green in 1900, before any street clutter. The Bank of Ireland building looks much grander. Would be great to restore this view.

Wild Bill · 04-11-2010 12:49am

Should there not be tram tracks in the photo above? Where are they? Where are the overhead wires?

Sulmac · 04-11-2010 11:25am

BluntGuy wrote: »

Does anyone know where the report could be read or purchased?

I tried the DCBA and Dublin Civic Trust websites and couldn't find it.

Months later...

http://www.dublincivictrust.ie/_webgears/_filescontent/Defining-Dublins-Historic-Core.pdf

dubhthach · 04-11-2010 12:04pm

Wild Bill wrote: »

Should there not be tram tracks in the photo above? Where are they? Where are the overhead wires?

The first electric tram only ran in Dublin in 1896. The first trams opened in the 1870's and were horse pulled. The tramline that ran along Dawson Street and into College Green was probably built as part of the "Donnybrook to Phoenix park" line which was built between 1873-76.

This photo could possibly be from the 1860's to early 1870's. Either that or it's in the period up to 1896 and ye just can't see the tracks due to level of horse-manure in the street.

Yillan · 06-06-2011 7:26pm

What is the status of this idea at the moment? Any chance of it becoming a reality?

Aard · 06-06-2011 7:42pm

I image that with Obama's visit, a lot of people would be supportive of the idea of making a square of College Green. Now would be the time for any advocacy groups to start campaigning and contacting city councillors.

mgmt · 06-06-2011 11:32pm

Hopefully the Bank of Ireland on College Green will be given to the state (we own it anyways). That will really push the idea forward. The worst thing that could happen to College Green is having a squeaky luas wrecking the atmosphere.

Yillan · 06-06-2011 11:37pm

The Metro North would go underground and the latter of these would be a perfect option should the bxd go ahead:

Luas%20City%20Centre%20Link%20Up%20Line%20BX%20Route%20Option%20A.map.jpg

Luas%20City%20Centre%20Link%20Up%20Line%20BX%20Route%20Option%20A.map.jpg

Luas%20City%20Centre%20Link%20Up%20Line%20BX%20Route%20Option%20B.map.jpg

Both these images are probably already on the thread, but here they are again.

Metro North would be a good start of course.

mgmt · 07-06-2011 12:02am

Sulmac wrote: »

Months later...

http://www.dublincivictrust.ie/_webgears/_filescontent/Defining-Dublins-Historic-Core.pdf

I love it. Some great ideas in that document.

dubhthach · 07-06-2011 7:45am

From walking through College Green I definetly think that removing the trees in certain locations would cause improvements to sight lines etc. Of course the fact that College Green is choc a bloc with buses doesn't help. I can imagine the tree-huggers going mad if the trees were to get the chop though.

Irish and Proud · 08-06-2011 12:24pm

Pedestrianize College Green!

I take it that this means that a tunnel would be built to divert all the buses and cars under the South Bank - where else would they go otherwise - especially the buses - not much room on Westland Row or Parliament Street/South Great Georges Street - and not much in the way of good routes to get to them either - Parliament Street would be reached by Capel Street :rolleyes: and Westland Row would be reached after several turns. Oh, and there's the LUAS BxD as well - that has to go somewhere - IMO BxD is a very likely choice for the new government in the current economic climate (re - the choice between 4 rail projects - MN, DU, BxD and the Airport Spur).

I doubt that College Green would be pedestrianized anytime soon given the state the country is in - not a priority IMO.

bk · 08-06-2011 5:20pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

I take it that this means that a tunnel would be built to divert all the buses and cars under the South Bank - where else would they go otherwise - especially the buses - not much room on Westland Row or Parliament Street/South Great Georges Street - and not much in the way of good routes to get to them either - Parliament Street would be reached by Capel Street :rolleyes: and Westland Row would be reached after several turns. Oh, and there's the LUAS BxD as well - that has to go somewhere - IMO BxD is a very likely choice for the new government in the current economic climate (re - the choice between 4 rail projects - MN, DU, BxD and the Airport Spur).

For Luax BXD, one of the original options, option B, completely avoids College Green and O'Connell St. :

http://www.rpa.ie/Maps/Luas%20Line%20BX/Luas%20City%20Centre%20Link%20Up%20Line%20BX%20Route%20Option%20B.map.jpg

It is the best route option IMO, it avoids running ugly trams and their wiring in front of the most important historic buildings in Dublin. It also has less impact on the city as only one street needs to be dug up, rather then two.

As for cars, their are routes along the quays that don't use College Green.

As for buses, we should do away with most cross city bus services, instead northside buses could go down D'Olier St and back up Westmoreland street, with stops on these two streets. South side buses could go as far as Dame Street, with a turn around their and stops.

This then leaves just a nice short walk across a beautiful pedestranised College Green for people to transfer between north and south bound buses.

BrianD · 08-06-2011 6:14pm

bk wrote: »

It is the best route option IMO, it avoids running ugly trams and their wiring in front of the most important historic buildings in Dublin. It also has less impact on the city as only one street needs to be dug up, rather then two.

Let's not forget that all of Dublin's historic buildings had trams running in front of them before. The visual impact of tram infrastucture is almost minimal if done well.

Cathaoirleach · 09-06-2011 1:02am

BrianD wrote: »

Let's not forget that all of Dublin's historic buildings had trams running in front of them before. The visual impact of tram infrastucture is almost minimal if done well.

Dublin City Council has already asked the RPA to come up with a wireless solution for College Gr. and O'Connell St.

charlemont · 09-06-2011 1:14am

Hope it works out, Really needs the public transport sorted first though.

bk · 09-06-2011 10:38am

BrianD wrote: »

Let's not forget that all of Dublin's historic buildings had trams running in front of them before. The visual impact of tram infrastucture is almost minimal if done well.

And from the pictures I've seen, it looked pretty ugly back then too.

No point in repeating the mistakes of the past.

I was in Oslo over the weekend, I noticed the trams go nowhere near the main shopping streets and historic buildings. They tend to run down smaller streets parallel to these.

Frankly Dublin City as a social space is a complete disaster and embarrassment compared to every city in Europe I've visited. We have the opportunity to fix that at least a little bit here. Lets not stick big ugly trams and their wires down our most important streets.

seamus · 09-06-2011 11:00am

bk wrote: »

As for cars, there are routes along the quays that don't use College Green.

College Green has been practically no-go for private vehicles for a long time anyway. It's a through-route, but rarely the most convenient one. I actually think removal of college green for all traffic would simplify much of Dublin's crazy one-way systems, as much of them are in place to facilitate access to & from college green.

FreudianSlippers · 09-06-2011 11:21am

bk wrote: »

And from the pictures I've seen, it looked pretty ugly back then too.

No point in repeating the mistakes of the past.

I was in Oslo over the weekend, I noticed the trams go nowhere near the main shopping streets and historic buildings. They tend to run down smaller streets parallel to these.

Frankly Dublin City as a social space is a complete disaster and embarrassment compared to every city in Europe I've visited. We have the opportunity to fix that at least a little bit here. Lets not stick big ugly trams and their wires down our most important streets.

Too bad all of those streets in Dublin are filled with junkies.

dubhthach · 09-06-2011 11:36am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Too bad all of those streets in Dublin are filled with junkies.

Doesn't help that someone bright in the relevant department decided to put 15+ treatment facilities in Dublin 1 alone.

Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

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