Elite armed squad to tackle gangland crime in Limerick

cushtac · 04-09-2008 11:13pm

eroo wrote: »

I know full well that armed Gardai have been attacked before.However,any Garda patrol,armed or unarmed,could be decimated by a gunman at any given time.Yet,I seriously don't think many organised crime gangs or anyone else would consider something like that,imagine the crackdown that would follow?It would be post-Veronica Guerin all over again.

If you know full well then why did you say criminals don't attack armed DDU? Have you anything to base your assumptions on, other than the newspaper articles you read?

eroo · 04-09-2008 11:30pm

cushtac wrote: »

If you know full well then why did you say criminals don't attack armed DDU? Have you anything to base your assumptions on, other than the newspaper articles you read?

No,I get most of my info from newspapers.Where else am I going to get it?Going on that,I haven't read anything about DDU patrols being attacked by armed criminals on a regular basis.Maybe they are,hence the RSU's being created?

djtechnics1210 · 05-09-2008 4:54am

Saw one driving around today,they look well, i honestly think members of public wouldn't know difference though, thats if they hadn't put cars all over news. People would have just thought GARDA got new marked cars. The one i saw on news had red lettering on front doors but the one i saw today didn't.

djtechnics1210 · 05-09-2008 4:57am

Looked at video on news and pictures in paper - looks like their wearing public order unit pads on arms legs etc. In fact looks almost identical to it and nothing like pads iv seen ERU wear on jobs, Any ideas??????

JonAnderton · 05-09-2008 6:56am

I take it they're taking the same stance as us with regards to firearms and public order situations? ie they don't mix well... In that case..loose the shin guards. They may make for hard as **** photos, but for practicality, flexability and comfort, not sure I'd be too keen.

As for the side markings, you can get magnetic strips that they could just take on and off as needed

This looks more practical, apart from the Hi Viz which I'm sure will be removed for tactical situations... Nice one lads... Best of luck to them all.. Lets hope everyone gets behind them and it works out.

Shame there's no more information or pictures on the Garda's own website...

ps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pnVwkO6uKA

eroo · 05-09-2008 3:20pm

That is hilarious,thanks Jon!

metman · 05-09-2008 4:45pm

From some of the linked vids its clear some Trojan officers are partial to Peanut Butter Jelly

I hope DPS aren't scouring YouTube!

JonAnderton · 05-09-2008 4:52pm

I was thinking the same myself... At least the guy on the left had control of his 5... the other guy...hmmmmmm

metman · 05-09-2008 6:02pm

A pic I couldn't find earlier on; here's a close-up of kit worn by Tactical Firearms Group, for comparison.

Two pairs of cuffs, X26 worn on the body armour, Glock pistol and G36 carbine with laser sight and surefire, ASP and CS (not visible).

790253675_9795e0f37d.jpg?v=0

eroo · 05-09-2008 6:16pm

Why are the magazines transparent?

metman · 05-09-2008 6:19pm

Transparent mags give the officer an indication of when they need to change clip, i.e you don't need to count your rounds in a contact or risk your cocking lever coming back to you at an inappropriate time.

eroo · 05-09-2008 6:26pm

metman wrote: »

Transparent mags give the officer an indication of when they need to change clip.

There goes their opportunity to do a Dirty Harry routine.''I know what your thinking.'Did he fire 30 shots or 29?.....''

metman · 05-09-2008 6:33pm

Inspector Harry Callaghan picked a .44 for a reason

donvito99 · 05-09-2008 7:41pm

The guards still dont have the launch of the RSU on their website,

I mean, come on!

This is probably the biggest PR event of the year.

metman · 05-09-2008 7:54pm

The job will never advertise firearms stuff.

wicklaman83 · 05-09-2008 7:55pm

metman wrote: »

Don't fall into the 'wannabe' category on here. You have zero operational experience (let alone firearms experience) so don't talk out of your hind quarters. What you said is all well and good on your .22 range, but it doesn't apply in real life, either in the military or police. Have you ever even held a 'standard clear mag' from a G36? Have you ever even seen a G36? I'm guessing not seeing as how they're not used in the Republic.

When you apply stress conditions to firearms use your round count may be well off sonny, hence why H&K and Steyr not to mention a number of other major players have now introduced clear clips as standard.

Use some common sense before making silly posts.

did somebody step on somebodys toes

CLADA · 05-09-2008 8:01pm

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Any good shooter knows exactly how many shots he has fired.

metman wrote:

Don't fall into the 'wannabe' category on here. You have zero operational experience (let alone firearms experience) so don't talk out of your hind quarters. What you said is all well and good on your .22 range, but it doesn't apply in real life, either in the military or police. Have you ever even held a 'standard clear mag' from a G36? Have you ever even seen a G36? I'm guessing not seeing as how they're not used in the Republic.

I'm sure what metman really meant to say was:

Dear Fyr.Fytr,
On a club range or similar, all good shooters would know how many shots they had fired.
However, in a firearms incident where multiple shots are fired and stress levels are high it is an obvious advantage to be able to assess how many rounds remain in the weapon by glancing at the magazine.

On inspection of the magazine one may find that there may be four or five rounds remaining. In this instance and should the opportunity arise (i.e. a small window of safety) , it is preferable to perform a tactical mag change and discard this magazine and replace it with a fully loaded mag.

This is far preferable than to continue firing until empty and then realise you have to perform an emergency mag change when your life may be in immediate danger.

But I'm sure metman would have edited his post accordingly when he calmed down

TheNog · 05-09-2008 9:16pm

*throws cold water on metman and watches steam rising*

calm down big boy, civilian or not we are all on the same side

Fyr.Fytr · 05-09-2008 11:08pm

Who pissed on your chips?

Right granted i dont have a alot of fire arms expereince, bar range and clay pidgeon shooting. I'm speaking from what ive been told by family members and friends who come from a range of backrounds, everything from a weekend soldier with the rdf to members of the garda sdu, they all say the same.

Thing that gets me is, according to your analogy what on earth do you do when your unsing a pistol then, i know for most armed guards anyway this is their primary weapon as they dont normally carry uzi's with them and mp7's arnt fully rolled out yet. How do they cope? Or another thing how did the cope before clear mags came out?

As for the fact you jumped to that i havnt seen a g36c, ehhh ever hear of air travel, were not that backward here we do tend to venture from home and travel abroad these
days

Dont be such a moody michael, remember attack the post not the poster

Remember opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one

EDIT: Metman if my post upsets you that much let me know and ill remove it

eroo · 06-09-2008 12:24am

Hey let's keep things nice and rosy!As nog said,we're all on the same side!:)

Fyr.Fytr · 06-09-2008 12:27am

metman wrote: »

You did.

Yes your posts offend me when they are posted on topics where you have zero knowledge but profess to have a friend/cousin/uncle in AGS/ARW/ERU/Whatever.

Ultimately kiddo your posts are becoming the epitomy of wannabe and are boring me on here. Your posts contribute nothing from your own personal experience, which I wouldn't mind, but you profess to be an expert on everything right up to using a g36, when you've never even seen one; so your posts are clearly bogus.

I'd rather you said nothing at all than spoke out of your arsehole.

Ok fair enough, i apologise, we'll leave it at that

Edit: previous post removed

PeelerHurley · 06-09-2008 12:51am

CLADA wrote: »

I'm sure what metman really meant to say was:
, it is preferable to perform a tactical mag change and discard this magazine and replace it with a fully loaded mag.

This is far preferable than to continue firing until empty and then realise you have to perform an emergency mag change when your life may be in immediate danger.

Ah a man who has done the course reading that brings me back to the range where we had instructors shouting tactical, 1 shot, 2 shots, kneeling.

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Ok fair enough, i apologise, we'll leave it at that

Edit: previous post removed

Awh poor fr fytr licking his wounds for the night.

JonAnderton · 06-09-2008 6:29am

I had a very long and detailed reply written out but this interweb is playing silly buggers and I got so wound up typing the last one, I'll try and keep this brief.

Everyones entitled to their opinion, but it is very annoying, and to a certain degree, disrepectful, when people who have no knowledge (working or otherwise) of tactical firearms situations decide to criticse the people who tend to do this day in day out.

One of the major things people who have never done any sort of Tac training don't realise is the effect that the stress of the immediate situation can have on an officer. Perceptual distortion of your hearing... your vision narrowing.. memory blanks.. The public don't get the jist of what goes on to a persons body and mind in these situations. Counting rounds is the last thing on my mind. Thats why we have the tac reloads, the top up reloads and of course, the 'New York Reload'.

I'm sure messrs H&K have a better knowledge of me on the benefits of the delayed blowback principals of their MP5's but I bet they can't have any idea whats going through the mind of the operator of said weapon as he's covering an armed suspect leaving a containment... I'm not saying that just because you're not Job that you mustn't have any clue of whats what, but generally, officers will have a better understanding and appreciation of the roles of AFO's and now, the RSU's. Consider that most peoples knowledge of armed policing comes from what they see on TV or read in The Sun.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but lets make sure they are informed opinions wheather it be that of a MoP with an interest in Law enforcement or a 25 year old sweat who always goes on about the job being f**ked. This is what these forums are for after all, discussion and debate. Most people on this forum are well informed and genuinley intrested in what we talk about, hence why I enjoy participating, but please, before posting things which may criticise other peoples working practises or methods, lets think before we hit that submit button... there's a big difference between debate and discussion, and ill informed criticism and insult.

Now, the best way I know to roll out a hose...:D

ps. This was as brief as I could make it...lol

wicklaman83 · 06-09-2008 9:13am

JonAnderton wrote: »

I had a very long and detailed reply written out but this interweb is playing silly buggers and I got so wound up typing the last one, I'll try and keep this brief.

Everyones entitled to their opinion, but it is very annoying, and to a certain degree, disrepectful, when people who have no knowledge (working or otherwise) of tactical firearms situations decide to criticse the people who tend to do this day in day out.

One of the major things people who have never done any sort of Tac training don't realise is the effect that the stress of the immediate situation can have on an officer. Perceptual distortion of your hearing... your vision narrowing.. memory blanks.. The public don't get the jist of what goes on to a persons body and mind in these situations. Counting rounds is the last thing on my mind. Thats why we have the tac reloads, the top up reloads and of course, the 'New York Reload'.

I'm sure messrs H&K have a better knowledge of me on the benefits of the delayed blowback principals of their MP5's but I bet they can't have any idea whats going through the mind of the operator of said weapon as he's covering an armed suspect leaving a containment... I'm not saying that just because you're not Job that you mustn't have any clue of whats what, but generally, officers will have a better understanding and appreciation of the roles of AFO's and now, the RSU's. Consider that most peoples knowledge of armed policing comes from what they see on TV or read in The Sun.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but lets make sure they are informed opinions wheather it be that of a MoP with an interest in Law enforcement or a 25 year old sweat who always goes on about the job being f**ked. This is what these forums are for after all, discussion and debate. Most people on this forum are well informed and genuinley intrested in what we talk about, hence why I enjoy participating, but please, before posting things which may criticise other peoples working practises or methods, lets think before we hit that submit button... there's a big difference between debate and discussion, and ill informed criticism and insult.

Now, the best way I know to roll out a hose...:D

ps. This was as brief as I could make it...lol

i dont think what fyr posted was intended to be ctiticism or an insult to any member or the force

Fyr.Fytr · 06-09-2008 1:25pm

My statement wasnt based on watching the bill or reading the sun, its from former and current members of AGS and the defence forces, just repeating whats been said to me. Also one of my points which was ignored how do AFO's cope when using pistols then??

Anyway It wasnt ment to be an insult, as it was taken that way ive retracted my statement, can we move on?

metman · 06-09-2008 3:09pm

Came across this old school video about the early days of Armed Response Vehicles on SO19 (as it was in 1993). Should be of interest to those keen to find out a bit about the RSUs.

SO19 Video

Love the old Rover ARVs!

JonAnderton · 06-09-2008 3:54pm

My appologies.. I just thought someone saying that any good shooter should be able to count his rounds was a bit insulting and maybe showed a bit of ignorance to what it's like to be an AFO... My post wasn't directed at anyone person (despite the hose comment) but once I got started. Had to let it all out...:)

How do we cope with pistols for what?... knowing how many rounds are left?.. The same way we do with every other weapon, be it MP5 or MP7... with the added bonus that there's a big clue as to when it's empty...

JonAnderton · 06-09-2008 3:56pm

Mike Waldron wrote a book, 'Armed Police'... the history of armed police in the UK from the second world war up to today... very good read...

eroo · 06-09-2008 4:09pm

metman wrote: »

Came across this old school video about the early days of Armed Response Vehicles on SO19 (as it was in 1993). Should be of interest to those keen to find out a bit about the RSUs.

SO19 Video

Love the old Rover ARVs!

Ya those Rovers were a class of their own by the looks of them!I really that picture in Roger Gray's book of the 2 Rovers rolling out on the first day of the ARV's!

yayamark · 06-09-2008 4:44pm

metman wrote: »

Came across this old school video about the early days of Armed Response Vehicles on SO19 (as it was in 1993). Should be of interest to those keen to find out a bit about the RSUs.

SO19 Video

Love the old Rover ARVs!

Loved the ending

Funny but scary at the same time

Eru · 06-09-2008 7:23pm

Let it be forever remembered that two posters got hot and bothered with each other and it didn't involve me!

metman · 07-09-2008 12:10am

An insight into what RSU hand signals really mean....

picture.php?albumid=143&pictureid=720

Fyr.Fytr · 07-09-2008 12:35am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Let it be forever remembered that two posters got hot and bothered with each other and it didn't involve me!

I know crazy or what??

JonAnderton wrote: »

My appologies.. I just thought someone saying that any good shooter should be able to count his rounds was a bit insulting and maybe showed a bit of ignorance to what it's like to be an AFO... My post wasn't directed at anyone person (despite the hose comment) but once I got started. Had to let it all out...:)

How do we cope with pistols for what?... knowing how many rounds are left?.. The same way we do with every other weapon, be it MP5 or MP7... with the added bonus that there's a big clue as to when it's empty...

I ment that the argument was raised re the clear mags of the g36 that you know when your running low on rounds, i asked if this is the case how do you cope with pistols or mp7's for that matter where the clear mag isnt visable?

TheNog · 07-09-2008 1:18am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Let it be forever remembered that two posters got hot and bothered with each other and it didn't involve me!

wonders will never cease :pac::pac:

TheNog · 07-09-2008 1:19am

metman wrote: »

An insight into what RSU hand signals really mean....

{/QUOTE]

LOL class

JonAnderton · 07-09-2008 6:25am

You forgot this one Metman

The signal for "I've worked with this guv'nor before"

metman · 07-09-2008 12:22pm

Spot on

TheNog · 07-09-2008 11:46pm

More tripe from the Evening Herald describing the RSU as Robocops. Terry Prone really shows how out of touch he or she (hell I don;t know) with what's going on in Ireland and the potential for serious violence. In all the pure and utter crap he or she wrote there is only one small piece of opinion that does raise a question and that is whether the RSU will have constant training.

http://www.herald.ie/opinion/comment/do-we-really-need-robocops-1470127.html

Fyr.Fytr · 08-09-2008 12:38am

Its the hearld, in the same vein as joe duffy and adrian kennedy

eroo · 08-09-2008 12:48am

TheNog wrote: »

More tripe from the Evening Herald describing the RSU as Robocops. Terry Prone really shows how out of touch he or she (hell I don;t know) with what's going on in Ireland and the potential for serious violence. In all the pure and utter crap he or she wrote there is only one small piece of opinion that does raise a question and that is whether the RSU will have constant training.

http://www.herald.ie/opinion/comment/do-we-really-need-robocops-1470127.html

Here is what is wrong that article(besides being in The Herald);

''The Army Ranger Wing itself was created by Dermot Earley''

FALSE.He was one of the selected Officers who went on the US Ranger course,he didn't do it all by himself.

The Army Rangers are now regarded as among the best ranger wings in the world. They have competed against the US Navy SEALs in elite forces tests and beaten them.

There are plenty of units throughout the world with the word 'Ranger' in their unit designation.However,most of these are nothing like ARW or US RANGERS,they have either different roles or are just conventional units.So one cannot say there are 'ranger wings' throughout the world.As for SEALs,that is pure speculation on the journalists part.

Although we have armed violence in this country, it has tended to take the form of one armed gang member picking off another

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Without a critical mass of this kind of explosive violence, you have to wonder if the lads are not going to spend their days hanging around Mrs Beggan's post office hoping for action.

They are regular uniform Gardai,they won't be sitting around waiting for something to happen.Has he even heard about the roles of these 'armed support units'!?Every other journalist seems to,why not him too?

The RSU's skills have to be kept sharp enough that they don't shoot Mrs Beggan and her cat. It's going to cost a small fortune to train the RSU and keep them trained to a high level of combat-readiness.

Well,I honestly can't imagine they won't follow along the lines of best international practice.
Combat-readiness?Why would they need to be combat ready?They are law enforcement.

The other important question is: How much protection do we need from what? Unless Mrs Beggans and her cat are armed, the Robo Cops are going to face long stretches of boredom.

Oh sweet Lord above!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

djtechnics1210 · 08-09-2008 1:14am

it says in papers and on telly that rsu does 13 weeks training and that they are as highly trained as ERU, on a brake down
1) standard gun course
2) MP7
3) method of entry
4) standard driving course
5) over 2.5l
6) advanced driving course
7) Tactical training level 1
8) Tactical training level 2
9) Emergency first responder
10) Negotiator
11) Tactical car stops

These on their own take 20 weeks and thats not including shotgun, gas mask, cs gas, bean bag, tazer, rappeling etc etc,how are they as well trained as ERU when it takes ERU 6 months to be fully qualified but it only took the RSU 13 weeks to do all of this training.

Fyr.Fytr · 08-09-2008 1:18am

EFR course alone is 1 whole week, plus exams

eroo · 08-09-2008 1:41am

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

it says in papers and on telly that rsu does 13 weeks training and that they are as highly trained as ERU, on a brake down
1) standard gun course
2) MP7
3) method of entry
4) standard driving course
5) over 2.5l
6) advanced driving course
7) Tactical training level 1
8) Tactical training level 2
9) Emergency first responder
10) Negotiator
11) Tactical car stops

These on their own take 20 weeks and thats not including shotgun, gas mask, cs gas, bean bag, tazer, rappeling etc etc,how are they as well trained as ERU when it takes ERU 6 months to be fully qualified but it only took the RSU 13 weeks to do all of this training.

Well if they are anything like ARV's in UK,they won't need as much extensive tactical entry training for siege's.I'm open to correction on this by metman or JonAnderton or anyone else who knows,but afaik ARV's act in a containment capacity mainly(with the ability to carry out entries if needed),and leave the tactical entry side of things to specialist teams?If the RSU's are anything like ARV's in that case,their main task would be to contain a suspect,and allow for negotiations to take place and wait for ERU??

yayamark · 08-09-2008 4:18pm

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

it says in papers and on telly that rsu does 13 weeks training and that they are as highly trained as ERU, on a brake down
1) standard gun course
2) MP7
3) method of entry
4) standard driving course
5) over 2.5l
6) advanced driving course
7) Tactical training level 1
8) Tactical training level 2
9) Emergency first responder
10) Negotiator
11) Tactical car stops

These on their own take 20 weeks and thats not including shotgun, gas mask, cs gas, bean bag, tazer, rappeling etc etc,how are they as well trained as ERU when it takes ERU 6 months to be fully qualified but it only took the RSU 13 weeks to do all of this training.

Standard car course is a prerequisite to starting the RSU course.
Members do not do an Advanced Car course, to drive the Volvo they do a tactical course

JonAnderton · 08-09-2008 10:52pm

With regards to entries, there's differing definitions depending on what you're actually doing. I'm not going to go into the specifics, but there's different ways and means for entries and containments

Obviously SFO's and TST's are entry trained. ARV officers can do an 'extra' search to contact course with means they can enter to search for a suspect. Not usually explosive entires, but basic door bashing or dig outs.

Not all ARV officers can do this, but many can and it's only down to cost and training time. Because ACPO has stated search officers must do very regular training, it would be a logistical nightmare to have every AFO search trained...

Sooooo, instead.. Most AFO's are 'search to contain' and 'enhanced cover and movement' trained. which is basically the theory and tactics of 'searching' through buildings but officially only so you can safely move to a closer position or to 'locate to contain' the suspect.

metman · 09-09-2008 10:27pm

Similar setup in the county forces. ARV crews are predominantly used to stabilise and control armed incidents pending deployment of TFG/SFO, but also undergo further training to enable them to react to spontaneous events.

In a business like policing, operational detail often varies in fast-time critical incidents thus requiring a flexible approach, especially where specialist backup is some way off.

deadwood · 09-09-2008 10:49pm

metman wrote: »

Robocops?
They look like LEGO Stormtroopers!

(I hope the RSU understand that, (as far as I can see) on boards, a smiley face means you can't shoot a poster)

metman · 09-09-2008 10:52pm

Looking at that pic again am in agreement with Jon, they seriously need to lose half the pointless public order pads.....but bearing in mind it was a PR shoot to impress Joe Public.

Random · 13-09-2008 7:30pm

metman wrote: »

Looking at that pic again am in agreement with Jon, they seriously need to lose half the pointless public order pads.....but bearing in mind it was a PR shoot to impress Joe Public.

Love to see them change into all that in less than a minute !

metman · 13-09-2008 9:46pm

A pic I hadn't seen before of an ERU entry team.

picture.php?albumid=143&pictureid=759

Elite armed squad to tackle gangland crime in Limerick

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