Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip · 27-07-2015 2:52pm

random_guy wrote: »

September apparently.

That's what I heard, EASTWEST alluded to it a few post backs, the general thought is the report hasn't come out with a ringing endorsement clamouring for the freight line from Claremorris to Athenry, if the report hasn't given the result they wanted it has probably been sent back to the consultant for revisions.

flyingsnail · 27-07-2015 2:59pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I'm struggling to figure out what the savings are between a freight-only line and a passenger and freight line as alluded to in the article. The cost of a couple of stations is minimal in the grand scheme, I don't think there could be any expensive safety features but am open to correction on that.

They also mention the problems of the single track to Portarlington but surely they're not proposing a double track here? Was that section originally double-tracked?

Stations would be one cost, a freight only line could also be done to a lower speed and maybe use second hand track, level crossings can be operated by the train crew removing the need for automatic barriers and signals

westtip · 27-07-2015 3:07pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

Stations would be one cost, a freight only line could also be done to a lower speed and maybe use second hand track, level crossings can be operated by the train crew removing the need for automatic barriers and signals

A lower speed than Ennis/Athenry, Would that be possible?

flyingsnail · 27-07-2015 3:11pm

westtip wrote: »

A lower speed than Ennis/Athenry, Would that be possible?

A consistent 25mph thought, maybe

serfboard · 27-07-2015 4:26pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

They also mention the problems of the single track to Portarlington but surely they're not proposing a double track here? Was that section originally double-tracked?

I'd much rather that any money to be spent was spent on double-tracking Athlone->Portarlington. That could be justified from both a freight and passenger perspective.

Pete_Cavan · 27-07-2015 5:22pm

serfboard wrote: »

I'd much rather that any money to be spent was spent on double-tracking Athlone->Portarlington. That could be justified from both a freight and passenger perspective.

Havent you heard about the huge volume of freight in Mayo currently staging a sitdown protest, refusing to leave unless it is by rail via Tuam and demanding to be exported via ports not linked to the rail network? They have become increasingly entrenched in their views as they have not been supported by “scabs” who regularly cross picket lines to be exported via Dublin and Waterford ports. The protesters say they can hold out for as long as necessary until the Claremorris – Athenry line is reopened and the coiled spring that is bulk exports from Mayo is unleashed.

galwaycyclist · 27-07-2015 10:37pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

A consistent 25mph thought, maybe

Not quite greenway speed - but approaching it

westtip · 30-07-2015 10:48am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Havent you heard about the huge volume of freight in Mayo currently staging a sitdown protest, refusing to leave unless it is by rail via Tuam and demanding to be exported via ports not linked to the rail network? They have become increasingly entrenched in their views as they have not been supported by “scabs” who regularly cross picket lines to be exported via Dublin and Waterford ports. The protesters say they can hold out for as long as necessary until the Claremorris – Athenry line is reopened and the coiled spring that is bulk exports from Mayo is unleashed.

I know its hilarious isn't it, the press release from the Mayo Chambers, which by the way is only posted on one Chamber website, quoted a 1,000 trains a week - that's not outbound trains carrying freight, it includes the returning loco's. Which means 500 outbound freight trains a year. As Coca-Cola is the primary shipper - shipping containers of soft drinks syrup to coca-cola bottlers in UK and mainland Europe they have no interest in adding shipping time sending anything by freight from Foynes, they are perfectly happy with the current arrangement and will probably sell more Coca-Cola to tired thirsty cyclists on a greenway!. The numbers amount to 1.4 outbound freight trains a day, which are clearly creating serious capacity problems on the overburdened railway system! The back up "missing link" freight line from claremorris to Athenry would take say 50% of the huge amount of freight currently leaving Mayo (less than 2 trains a day), the Chambers of Commerce are asking for a new freight railway to accomodate less than one train a day. It's this kind of lunacy that makes the policy makers and legislators roll their eyeballs in wonder. Its pure poppycock, but unfortunately it is holding up the demands of the tourist and leisure industry for a greenway.

By the way, The National Childrens Hospital has still not been built, the N4 has not been fully upgraded, nor the N17, nor the N5......Priorities.. Let's see what the United Chamber of Commerce of Mayo really see as priorities!

savagethegoat · 30-07-2015 11:30am

nor the M20 the real missing link in travel for the West

serfboard · 30-07-2015 11:30am

westtip wrote: »

the Chambers of Commerce are asking for a new freight railway to accomodate less than one train a day. It's this kind of lunacy that makes the policy makers and legislators roll their eyeballs in wonder. Its pure poppycock, but unfortunately it is holding up the demands of the tourist and leisure industry for a greenway.

You can see that WOT and their supporters seem to know, for quite some time now, that the passenger argument is dead, so they are resorting to a mythical freight argument instead. Chambers of Commerce would be the last people I would ever ask about transport anyway.

And sadly, as you say, this is distracting from the Greenway effort by making some people think this is a somewhat viable alternative ...

eastwest · 30-07-2015 11:37am

It all means diddley squat; the news yesterday that Ireland must tender rail services by 2019 effectively spells the end of this rail corridor nonsense.
A lot of the services will be tendered on the basis of a subvention, that is normal enough, but the real issue is that the process will be transparent and not fudged by DOT or CIE.
The real cost of each service will be plain for all to see, and no matter how they waffle, the politicians who have made a career out of this debacle will be seen for what they are.
I can just see the queue forming now, to tender for Ennis Athenry!

serfboard · 30-07-2015 12:09pm

eastwest wrote: »

It all means diddley squat; the news yesterday that Ireland must tender rail services by 2019 effectively spells the end of this rail corridor nonsense.

I hadn't seen that news, but here is a link to it. From that Irish Times article:

The Irish Times wrote:

Discussions between Irish officials and the European Commission have been taking place in Brussels over the past few months, as Ireland seeks to secure an exemption from the rule.

...

European Commission sources said that while it was prepared to compromise, it did not support the idea smaller markets should get special treatment, arguing such a move would discriminate against certain member states. A commission spokesman also said this would fail to address “the urgent need of improvement of the quality and efficiency of public rail transport in many small member states”.

Jeepers - that must really put the frighteners on IE!

Actually, thinking about it another way, it gives IE and the politicians an easy cop-out. You could just imagine your local gombeen politician saying: "I fought tooth and nail to maintain Ennis->Athenry, but those evil bureaucrats in Brussels made us close it"!

what_traffic · 30-07-2015 1:00pm

Article in todays Connacht Tribune.
htp://connachttribune.ie/e8-5m-road-project-may-be-scuppered-on-principle908/

I am pretty sure a replacement greenway bridge would cost nothing like a railway bridge?

Rawr · 30-07-2015 1:36pm

what_traffic wrote: »

Article in todays Connacht Tribune.
htp://connachttribune.ie/e8-5m-road-project-may-be-scuppered-on-principle908/

I am pretty sure a replacement greenway bridge would cost nothing like a railway bridge?

I'd tend to agree. Essentially a wide pedestrian bridge would be more than sufficient.

Also, even if Irish Rail have no desire to replace the bridge following a road-widening, as long as nothing was put in place to prevent a future rail-bridge being constructed, there shouldn't be a problem. The entire line would need to be rebuilt anyway, along with probably a few bridges if it were ever to be reused for rail.

eastwest · 30-07-2015 3:12pm

Rawr wrote: »

I'd tend to agree. Essentially a wide pedestrian bridge would be more than sufficient.

Also, even if Irish Rail have no desire to replace the bridge following a road-widening, as long as nothing was put in place to prevent a future rail-bridge being constructed, there shouldn't be a problem. The entire line would need to be rebuilt anyway, along with probably a few bridges if it were ever to be reused for rail.

That's not the point, this has nothing to do with logic, it's all about symbolism!

Same reason they won't allow a single track to be lifted, even though the existing rails have to come up anyway if a railway is ever built.

Funny though how they're not screaming about the big stretch that was lifted near Kiltimagh by a would-be metal tycoon.

westtip · 02-08-2015 8:31pm

eastwest wrote: »

That's not the point, this has nothing to do with logic, it's all about symbolism!

The art of doing nothing is what it is all about, then no-one gets the blame; every councillor in the west knows the WRC fantasy is over but most of them still claim they are championing the WOT cause, because its easier to champion a cause you know you cannot possibly deliver on because you can blame that lot up in Dublin or Brussels from stopping it despite the fact the council want it.

At the moment all the talk on the rail fantasy front is about the sudden interest freight in particular from Claremorris to Athenry that may emerge, this debate is being driven by the idea that an upcoming report which was due out in June commissioned by the Western Development Commission may once again throw a straw in the wind to suggest freight may be the future for the WRC, or at least that is what is suspected, that a "favourable" report for freight is what the commissioning agent the WDC asked the consultant for.....And taking into account the consultant asked to write this report has a vested interest in rail freight we can but wonder! Due out in June the publication has been postponed until September, we suspect because the original draft report did not "talk up" freight potential enough,....... on the otherhand if this report is negative about the future of freight it may never see the light of day!!!! Conspiracy theorist?!! Moi?

Tuam Greenway Project · 03-08-2015 4:53pm

end of the road wrote: »

how would it be annoying the people of tuam who some want a greenway? separate it properly should either happen and away you go.

Hey hey -We haven't gone away. The freight argument is a red herring, or more of a green & red herring. Its' proposition is based around the Claremorris hub but unless you deliver the whole line from Ballina to Foynes, it's a non runner. Add up the costs. Future subsidies are to be delivered on an enterprise based- case by case. No goods to carry - no freight provision. Hub or no hub it's not going to happen. The Tuam Greenway campaign is going to heat up considerably for the spring 16 General Election. Be a very brave politician that will tell the people on the door steps in Tuam & Athenry that they can't have their Greenway because a diminishing group of rail enthusiasts want a mythical hub in Claremorris.
The numbers on Galway County Council are slowly but surely moving in our favour. The Greenway is going to happen. It's only a matter of when.

westtip · 03-08-2015 5:31pm

Tuam Greenway Project wrote: »

Hey hey - The freight argument is a red herring, or more of a green & red herring. Its' proposition is based around the Claremorris hub but unless you deliver the whole line from Ballina to Foynes, it's a non runner.
.

It's a non runner based on no commercial demand. In July the Mayo chamber of commerce cited in a press release that 1000 freight trains a year from Mayo was good enough reason to rebuild the freight line from Claremorris to Athenry. Really???

Lets look at those numbers eh? The 1000 trains quoted included the returning locos for each freight haulage train – so in fact it’s 500 outbound freight trains per annum, if you have a calculator handy its about 1.4 trains per day outbound. Guess what, this is not enough freight traffic to justify building a second freight line, when what we have is managing this volume perfectly OK.

You are right about Galway councillors from what I hear, there are a growing number of councillors fed up with the collection of diehards on the Inter county Western Railway Committee still trying to be the tail that wags the dog, and this business at Ballyglunin is causing ructions. Keep at it Tuam Greenway, Sligo Mayo Greenway, Sligo greenway Co-op, Swinford Vision for the future, Athenry Regeneration Group - all supporting a greenway now. The time is nigh.

monument · 04-08-2015 1:04am

westtip wrote: »

It's a non runner based on no commercial demand. In July the Mayo chamber of commerce cited in a press release that 1000 freight trains a year from Mayo was good enough reason to rebuild the freight line from Claremorris to Athenry. Really???

Lets look at those numbers eh? The 1000 trains quoted included the returning locos for each freight haulage train – so in fact it’s 500 outbound freight trains per annum, if you have a calculator handy its about 1.4 trains per day outbound. Guess what, this is not enough freight traffic to justify building a second freight line, when what we have is managing this volume perfectly OK.

You are right about Galway councillors from what I hear, there are a growing number of councillors fed up with the collection of diehards on the Inter county Western Railway Committee still trying to be the tail that wags the dog, and this business at Ballyglunin is causing ructions. Keep at it Tuam Greenway, Sligo Mayo Greenway, Sligo greenway Co-op, Swinford Vision for the future, Athenry Regeneration Group - all supporting a greenway now. The time is nigh.

My information, which is unconnected with any WRC discussion, is that the current train slots loading on the route are high. Close to peak loadings.

Simplified: Closer to Mayo you have the issue of single tracks with few passing loops and manned crossings, then you add Galway trains into the mix at Athlone, and Cork etc trains after that.

The potential commercial demand exceeds the current provision.

You can't describe me as anti-greenway.

westtip · 04-08-2015 6:25am

monument wrote: »

My information, which is unconnected with any WRC discussion, is that the current train slots loading on the route are high. Close to peak loadings.

Simplified: Closer to Mayo you have the issue of single tracks with few passing loops and manned crossings, then you add Galway trains into the mix at Athlone, and Cork etc trains after that.

The potential commercial demand exceeds the current provision.

You can't describe me as anti-greenway.

Which is why, in my book the most important route to be re-opened for the West of Ireland would actually have been Athlone Mullingar, to provide extra capacity from all points west and north west of Athlone into Dublin, and then to increase capacity on the Sligo line from Mullingar to Dublin either with more passing loops or even double tracking from Longford inbound, that would have been of far greater importance and benefit to the west of Ireland than even talking about Claremorris to Athenry. It would also have improved Galway Dublin and commuter lines from Athlone. its called spending money on infrastructure for the greater good for the greatest number. I have said this for years; ironically, athlone mullingar is the very route that is being used as a greenway - albeit there is plenty of room on that route for both - in fact I believe the Athlone-Mullingar Greenway is being laid alongside the old track.

Had West on Track advocated re-opening this line on economic grounds for the benefit of the west giving an alternative route to Dublin for trains from the west then they may have garnered more support - from all corners, pity really as they have boundless energy, but I am afraid failed to see the big picture about the real future of rail infrastructure in Ireland.

Oh and by the way you can't describe me as anti-greenway either, in fact nor am I anti rail, I am just anti waste of public funds.

serfboard · 04-08-2015 1:45pm

monument wrote: »

Simplified: Closer to Mayo you have the issue of single tracks with few passing loops and manned crossings, then you add Galway trains into the mix at Athlone, and Cork etc trains after that.

Well, the simplified answer to that is more double-tracking, and specifically, as I said earlier, double-track Athlone->Portarlington so that Mayo and Galway trains don't have to wait for each other. Further down the track (;)) we may need to quad-track from Portarlington to Dublin, in other words, extending the (suspended) Kildare Route Project from Kildare to Portarlington.

Despite all the (mainly road) infrastructure we built in the Celtic Tiger, in some senses we are very infrastructurally deficient - particularly in rail. And of what money we did spend, we wasted over 100 million on that white elephant that is Ennis->Athenry ...

westtip · 05-08-2015 11:04am

serfboard wrote: »

Despite all the (mainly road) infrastructure we built in the Celtic Tiger, in some senses we are very infrastructurally deficient - particularly in rail. And of what money we did spend, we wasted over 100 million on that white elephant that is Ennis->Athenry ...

And no government of whatever shade or collection of alliances is going to waste anymore north of Athenry. Fingers burnt once is enough.

eastwest · 10-08-2015 5:05pm

westtip wrote: »

And no government of whatever shade or collection of alliances is going to waste anymore north of Athenry. Fingers burnt once is enough.

You're using logic again, I'd watch that!

eastwest · 10-08-2015 5:07pm

Two points of view today in the Irish Times....

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/railways-and-greenways-1.2311371

CrowdedHouse · 10-08-2015 5:36pm

A bit OT but are there plans for a greenway near Loughrea?

Why I ask is that I noticed a few large commercially printed signs saying 'No to Greenway - No trespassing on agricultural land' These were coming up to the junction of the N65 and the 'old' N6

schemingbohemia · 10-08-2015 5:48pm

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

A bit OT but are there plans for a greenway near Loughrea?

Why I ask is that I noticed a few large commercially printed signs saying 'No to Greenway - No trespassing on agricultural land' These were coming up to the junction of the N65 and the 'old' N6

Yes, see here
http://www.galwaytodublincycleway.ie/#!route/cy2g

eastwest · 10-08-2015 5:59pm

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

A bit OT but are there plans for a greenway near Loughrea?

Why I ask is that I noticed a few large commercially printed signs saying 'No to Greenway - No trespassing on agricultural land' These were coming up to the junction of the N65 and the 'old' N6

Yes, DOT has a project to address the lack of infrastructure and get Ireland into the lucrative European cycle tourism market; they recognise that we need some long routes to attract some of the 20m Europeans who take cycling holidays each year. Dublin-Galway was supposed to be the 'spine route' to start this network off. It uses the royal canal from Dublin to Mullingar, then the old railway from Mullingar to Athlone. This is all progressing well enough, but they hit a wall in Galway where the IFA appear to have decided that the compensation on offer (reputedly €60k/acre) wasn't enough and are blocking it. It has become heated enough, with much talk of keeping 'Dublin 4 types' off farmers' land etc. Local Senator Healy-Eames has even joined in the fray, tweeting that cyclists would contribute to a rural crime wave.
However it looks like the DOT has an ace up their sleeves that will have the IFA backpedalling as they see the compensation disappearing over the hill. Senator Lorraine Higgins has pointed out to the DOT that greenways are built in other countries along rail alignments, and has proposed bypassing the more militant farmers by using spare land along the Athlone-Galway railway.
This could be interesting before it's finished.
By the way, in case anyone thinks this is off topic, it is relevant to the debate here. The Athenry-Collooney-Enniskillen cycle trail would plug in nicely to the Dublin-Galway route, giving touring cyclists handy off-road access to the north west.

westtip · 10-08-2015 6:18pm

There is some interesting potential for a parallel greenway along the main Dublin Galway line in county Galway if farmers turn down the opportunity for a lucrative second income stream and block the proposed Dublin Galway greenway route. It would be good if the department went ahead with the parallel greenway idea along the existing railway track, and then listen for complaints as to why those communities lost out on this economic boom for their areas, when a parallel greenway brings prosperity to the areas it goes through. If you click on these google map links you will see the railway that has the potential for a parallel greenway on this mainline rail route, these links are all in East Galway at points where roads cross the railway. I've posted up pics of parallel greenways before, it doesn't look that complicated an idea to execute.

well done to Lorraine Higgins for having the initiative to take this idea to the Minister.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.334424,-8.25201,3a,75y,87.64h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_qBbDgW2MrlHyws1s3p4DQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.333529,-8.337443,3a,75y,356.19h,106.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJNj95c5QcZsODwHYKiHEXA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.333529,-8.337443,3a,75y,356.19h,106.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJNj95c5QcZsODwHYKiHEXA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

end of the road · 10-08-2015 6:46pm

westtip wrote: »

There is some interesting potential for a parallel greenway along the main Dublin Galway line in county Galway if farmers turn down the opportunity for a lucrative second income stream and block the proposed Dublin Galway greenway route. It would be good if the department went ahead with the parallel greenway idea along the existing railway track, and then listen for complaints as to why those communities lost out on this economic boom for their areas, when a parallel greenway brings prosperity to the areas it goes through. If you click on these google map links you will see the railway that has the potential for a parallel greenway on this mainline rail route, these links are all in East Galway at points where roads cross the railway. I've posted up pics of parallel greenways before, it doesn't look that complicated an idea to execute.

well done to Lorraine Higgins for having the initiative to take this idea to the Minister.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.334424,-8.25201,3a,75y,87.64h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_qBbDgW2MrlHyws1s3p4DQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.333529,-8.337443,3a,75y,356.19h,106.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJNj95c5QcZsODwHYKiHEXA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.333529,-8.337443,3a,75y,356.19h,106.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJNj95c5QcZsODwHYKiHEXA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

would there still be room to double track the dublin galway line in the future though? certainly an intercity line like that should never have double tracking ruled out even if it won't happen any time soon

eastwest · 10-08-2015 10:00pm

end of the road wrote: »

would there still be room to double track the dublin galway line in the future though? certainly an intercity line like that should never have double tracking ruled out even if it won't happen any time soon

It wouldn't really matter. If they ever want to double track the line they would just have to widen the alignment slightly, at most. The landowners wouldn't really have any cause for complaint in that instance; the excuses of divided fields, loss of road frontage, rural crime waves etc. wouldn't wash in that context and I reckon the IFA would find it difficult to support them.
At the minute, the campaign for higher compensation is being dressed up as a defence against division of farms and a defence against criminals on bicycles, but once a greenway is operating successfully for a few years, the crime argument will hold no water.

Tuam Greenway Project · 10-08-2015 10:02pm

"Bog is beautiful" - love it
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/what-i-learned-while-cycling-through-the-irish-midlands-1.2310139?fb_action_ids=10207668280494517&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_ref=.VciwBnQZHww.like

schemingbohemia · 11-08-2015 11:25am

end of the road wrote: »

would there still be room to double track the dublin galway line in the future though? certainly an intercity line like that should never have double tracking ruled out even if it won't happen any time soon

There will never be need to double track from Galway to Athlone, the cost would be massive. A couple of passing loops or timetabling to pass in train stations would suffice.

end of the road · 11-08-2015 2:13pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

There will never be need to double track from Galway to Athlone, the cost would be massive. A couple of passing loops or timetabling to pass in train stations would suffice.

well, if a greenway is to run along side it, the space should be reserved anyway just incase

eastwest · 11-08-2015 2:32pm

end of the road wrote: »

well, if a greenway is to run along side it, the space should be reserved anyway just incase

It doesn't matter; the greenway can always be moved at little cost.
Why bother buying extra width in the alignment in case of something that might never happen?
All greenway projects agreed with CIE are carried out on the basis that the railway takes precedence if necessary. That's what makes the opposition by the pro-rail lobby so hard to understand; the railway will always have a primary right over the land, and the only thing to move will be the greenway.
That's why I have always maintained that the so-called 'pro-rail' lobby has an anti-jobs and anti-tourism agenda above and beyond their overt argument for railways. Are they afraid that foreign tourists will damage the fabric of the society they crave, or is it that they think a person on a bike is just a wannabe motorist and they don't understand the economics of high-end rural tourism?
Or maybe there is some other reason for their intransigence?

westtip · 11-08-2015 3:44pm

eastwest wrote: »

It doesn't matter; the greenway can always be moved at little cost.
Why bother buying extra width in the alignment in case of something that might never happen?
All greenway projects agreed with CIE are carried out on the basis that the railway takes precedence if necessary. That's what makes the opposition by the pro-rail lobby so hard to understand; the railway will always have a primary right over the land, and the only thing to move will be the greenway.
That's why I have always maintained that the so-called 'pro-rail' lobby has an anti-jobs and anti-tourism agenda above and beyond their overt argument for railways. Are they afraid that foreign tourists will damage the fabric of the society they crave, or is it that they think a person on a bike is just a wannabe motorist and they don't understand the economics of high-end rural tourism?
Or maybe there is some other reason for their intransigence?

What is galling is the complete silence by those lobbyists who want the railway, about the state of the alignment and land theft that has happened on their watch. I have never heard a whisper from West on Track about land theft has anyone?

BoatMad · 12-08-2015 3:26am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Havent you heard about the huge volume of freight in Mayo currently staging a sitdown protest, refusing to leave unless it is by rail via Tuam and demanding to be exported via ports not linked to the rail network? They have become increasingly entrenched in their views as they have not been supported by “scabs” who regularly cross picket lines to be exported via Dublin and Waterford ports. The protesters say they can hold out for as long as necessary until the Claremorris – Athenry line is reopened and the coiled spring that is bulk exports from Mayo is unleashed.

You are aware that Foynes is rail connected and in the process of being reopened, IE does suffer from a severe loss of train paths, with difficulty in scheduling day time freight , due to increased frequency of passenger trains. A freight only path to the west has some advantages

The rail versus greenway argument has descended into a zero sum argument here,

westtip · 12-08-2015 10:19am

BoatMad wrote: »

You are aware that Foynes is rail connected and in the process of being reopened, IE does suffer from a severe loss of train paths, with difficulty in scheduling day time freight , due to increased frequency of passenger trains. A freight only path to the west has some advantages

The rail versus greenway argument has descended into a zero sum argument here,

Boatmad let me clarify its not an argument of railway versus greenway as an either or.

Railway is not going to happen - TEN-T policy - read it. There is no money to build it and there is no money to subvent it. Move on!

A railway would cost what €200 million plus annual subvention

A greenway would cost what? €3 million to build and no annual subvention but an increase in VAT spend by users (proof of what greenway users spend in local economies is long proven) And would probably wipe its face in 4 years.

We are not having a debate about a railway or greenway, Because the Western Rail corridor as Gerry "not up for discussion" Murray of SF/WOT said two years ago and I don't think he meant it this way.

"the western rail corridor is not up for discussion and is not on the agenda" - how prophetic his words were! Its not up for discussion and its on no one's agenda.

savagethegoat · 12-08-2015 6:21pm

BoatMad wrote: »

You are aware that Foynes is rail connected and in the process of being reopened, IE does suffer from a severe loss of train paths, with difficulty in scheduling day time freight , due to increased frequency of passenger trains. A freight only path to the west has some advantages

The rail versus greenway argument has descended into a zero sum argument here,

It.s not in the process of being re-opened, there is a proposal to do so, but nothing concrete#

monument · 13-08-2015 4:29pm

westtip wrote: »

A greenway would cost what? €3 million to build and no annual subvention but an increase in VAT spend by users (proof of what greenway users spend in local economies is long proven) And would probably wipe its face in 4 years.

Along the full route? From Sligo to Galway? €3m is unlikely to go anywhere near covering half the costs.

flyingsnail · 13-08-2015 4:34pm

monument wrote: »

Along the full route? From Sligo to Galway? €3m is unlikely to go anywhere near covering half the costs.

the 40km Mullingar to Athlone cost €4m

(source also includes costs of other green way projects)
source http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2014/govt-announces-%E2%82%AC10-million-investment-greenways-%E2%80%93-minister-alan-kelly

monument · 13-08-2015 4:42pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

the 40km Mullingar to Athlone cost €4m

(source also includes costs of other green way projects)
source http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2014/govt-announces-%E2%82%AC10-million-investment-greenways-%E2%80%93-minister-alan-kelly

And what distance is it from
Sligo to Tuam? Or to the Galway - Dublin route?

How many more junctions are there in total? How many more busy road junctions are there which are not suitedto at-grade crossings?

How many more towns and villages are there?

How many more railway encroachments are there?

flyingsnail · 13-08-2015 4:47pm

monument wrote: »

And what distance is it from
Sligo to Tuam? Or to the Galway - Dublin route?

How many more junctions are there in total? How many more busy road junctions are there which are not suitedto at-grade crossings?

How many more towns and villages are there?

How many more railway encroachments are there?

I didnt mean to contradict your post just to show approximate how far 3m would go. Galway to sligo by the rail line would be about 4 times as long as Mullingar to Athlone.

monument · 13-08-2015 5:08pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

I didnt mean to contradict your post just to show approximate how far 3m would go. Galway to sligo by the rail line would be about 4 times as long as Mullingar to Athlone.

Ah, ok. Picked it up wrong.

Sure, it works anyways at highlighting issues the route will/may have.

Carawaystick · 13-08-2015 5:25pm

monument wrote: »

And what distance is it from
Sligo to Tuam? Or to the Galway - Dublin route?

Eh, the Mullingar - Athlone greenway is 0 km from the Galway Dublin route, it is the route.

Tuam Greenway Project · 13-08-2015 6:43pm

Here is one from a bit outside the box - but I wold love to hear views on it anyway. ...I was on a Greenway in Wales a few years ago and there was a very successful "Cycle Toll" in operation. It cost 1.60 stg return and it allowed you to cycle off road from Dongellau to Barmouth ( part of the trail is alongside a functioning railway line). It was a maned booth on a bridge and although it was easily circumferenced, nobody bothered.
Seasonally maned toll booths on Greenways? Automatic ticket machines with an optional contribution ? P.P.P.'s ?, income stream for County Councils?, direct jobs?, maintenance contribution?
I think a parking ticket style machine with an optional maintenance contribution would be both acceptable and by and large supported.

http://www.mawddachtrail.co.uk/mawddach-trail.html

monument · 13-08-2015 6:48pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Eh, the Mullingar - Athlone greenway is 0 km from the Galway Dublin route, it is the route.

I know, I meant the route from Sligo to Tuam and then a connection to the Galway to Dublin route after Tuam.

eastwest · 13-08-2015 11:04pm

monument wrote: »

I know, I meant the route from Sligo to Tuam and then a connection to the Galway to Dublin route after Tuam.

Dublin Galway route is planned to pass thru craughwell, around 6k south of athenry.
Could in theory be possible to link it to athenry-collooney along the wrc; plenty room for a greenway and the choo-choo train.
If senator higgins' proposal to use the corridor of the Athlone-Galway line instead of the more expensive 'farm-splitting' route so beloved of the IFA is acted on, there will be no need to link to craughwell.

eastwest · 13-08-2015 11:13pm

monument wrote: »

And what distance is it from
Sligo to Tuam? Or to the Galway - Dublin route?

How many more junctions are there in total? How many more busy road junctions are there which are not suitedto at-grade crossings?

How many more towns and villages are there?

How many more railway encroachments are there?

Athenry to Collooney is approx 140 km (from memory).
The local greenway group in Limerick was able to deliver that trail on a disused track bed for €20,000/km. that would equate to €2.8 million.
On the other hand, the mayo greenway which was managed and built by the county council cost €120,000/km. Applying council norms, to this project, the 140km would cost €16.8 million.
It all depends on who manages the job, I guess.

TCDStudent1 · 14-08-2015 11:10am

eastwest wrote: »

Athenry to Collooney is approx 140 km (from memory).
The local greenway group in Limerick was able to deliver that trail on a disused track bed for €20,000/km. that would equate to €2.8 million.
On the other hand, the mayo greenway which was managed and built by the county council cost €120,000/km. Applying council norms, to this project, the 140km would cost €16.8 million.
It all depends on who manages the job, I guess.

Wow, I'd never have imagined a greenway to be that expensive!

Rawr · 14-08-2015 11:39am

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Wow, I'd never have imagined a greenway to be that expensive!

I'd guess that amount is variable depending on a few things, but to convert a disused rail-line into a greenway, you may need:

- Works to remove the old track (where needed - in some parts it might be nice to keep the track as a reminder of the route's original role)

- Renovation / Replacement of old rail bridges

- Preparing a foundation / bedding for the pathway (The trackbed itself might be good enough for this, thus potentially not a big cost)

- Laying down tarmac for the pathway itself (a dirt track would also work to a degree and would be cheaper, but would become difficult to use in wet weather.)

- Clearing of stations to use as rest areas / retail outlets (very optional, and not necessary for project completion. However the remaining railway buildings could be ideal for re-use on a greenway, and may be worth considering)

- Installing Greenway crossings at old railway level-crossings. (Might take the form of traditional pedestrian crossings, or as more expensive bridge / underpass.

- Add to that the cost of labor, design, consultancy etc...etc...

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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