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HELP! Got Postgrad Grant last year now SUSI looking for money back?!!
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10-01-2014 11:21pm#1HELP, has anyone else received a letter in the last few days from SUSI looking for money back??
I got a letter today saying that SUSI had an internal audit for 2012 and that i was actually ineligible for the grant I received a year ago (€2000 for fees).
They say that they want to reassess me as dependant student based on my parents wages and if i don’t agree to reassessment that they will have to
'implement a recovery process in order to recoup the cost of the fees that were paid' to my college, ie. give them €2000.
I won't pass if they assess my parents and I'm in my late 20s and independant for years.
I was approved for the grant, did and finished the course; there was no mention of this before now.0
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Did they say why you were not eligible.
I would suggest seeking advice from the USI Education Officer (ring her) and also the Ombudsmans office.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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The same thing is happening to me, except the figure is over €6000. I would never have applied for the post grad had I known I had to have been 3 years out of college before I was eligible but I was 2 years and 8 months out of college. They granted me the money at the time. Realistically I'm not going to be able to pay this back, I'm freaking out!0
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I had a feeling this would happen. I suspected SUSI were not strictly applying the three year rule for postgrads.
Maybe people should ask MABS if they think that it might be possible to negotiate with SUSI.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Yes it was the three year rule that got me aswell. I rang the Ombudsman yesterday and my local TD.
The Ombusdman said that there would be a SUSI appeals process, then a Dept. of Education appeals process before it would arrive at the Ombudsmans door.
I did the course on the basis of being approved for the grant, I was on the dole at the time. I was advised by my TD to send an email back saying that I applied and received the grant in good faith and that the mistake lay with SUSI and that I should not be held resposible.0 -
It seems many people are getting this letter this week. Anyone got any ideas how to tackle it?
What statutory powers do susi have to recover this money if it was paid in error?0 -
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It was their error !!!!! there is no way you should be made pay this back
they are chancing their arm0 -
It was their error !!!!! there is no way you should be made pay this back
they are chancing their arm
It's not clear how SUSI can recover the money.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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The same thing happened to me- I got a fee exemption when I did my masters last year and now they're looking for the €6,000 they paid UCD for my fees. It's like giving someone a birthday present and then going up to them more than a year later and saying 'oops, I wasn't meant to give you that. I'll have it back now please'. I knew SUSI was a terrible organisation but this takes the biscuit.
I wrote back to them saying that I would not agree to be reassessed based on my parents' income since I have been living away from home for nearly 5 years, was fully honest and transparent in my application and would not have even done my masters if I had not been assured by SUSI's advisers that I would qualify for the fee exemption. They wrote back saying that they would have to recover the money from me but that will be more pointless than a white crayon because I have no money.
I'm just going to ignore them and hope they give up chancing their arm eventually. I somehow don't see them trying to sue us all over it, it would be reputational suicide for them.0 -
Can someone explain the three year rule? Can I not apply for a postgrad grant until three years after I finish my undergrad?0
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Can someone explain the three year rule? Can I not apply for a postgrad grant until three years after I finish my undergrad?
You can but you can't be classed as independent of your parents if you were dependent on them during your undergrad until after 3years no matter what your actual circumstances are.0 -
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Got the same letter from them. debating whether to call them or just ignore it...0
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Just rang the helpdesk there, they basically couldn't do anything. I was advised to submit the form to be assessed as a dependent student and submit a formal complaint with it.0
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Wow SUSI messed up big time on this.
I presume they are going to engage solicitors and go legal to recover money on this.
If it was me I'd be getting advice from as many people as possible; local TD, ombudsmans office, USI education officer, MABS - maybe if SUSI are looking to recover money they might accept a deal on itIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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You can but you can't be classed as independent of your parents if you were dependent on them during your undergrad until after 3years no matter what your actual circumstances are.
In my case I was independent of my parents through my whole undergrad. The reason they gave me is that I wasn't over 23 when I first started college:
"As you were not 23 years of age on the first of January of your year of entry for the first time to an approved higher education course and do not meet the criteria to be assessed under the re-entry requirement of the clause 4 (c) you were not entitled to apply as an independent mature student."
The information that I got from SUSI back when I was deciding whether I could afford the masters, and the criteria they subsequently assessed me on, was the reference period of 1st Jan - 31st December 2011.
Again, I really don't see them getting away with this. I'm not a lawyer but I imagine equity would intervene on the side of the students because of the sheer unfairness of SUSI deciding to apply this rule when most people relied on their own (false) information in deciding to pursue their courses, and finished their studies half a year ago.0 -
In my case I was independent of my parents through my whole undergrad. The reason they gave me is that I wasn't over 23 when I first started college:
"As you were not 23 years of age on the first of January of your year of entry for the first time to an approved higher education course and do not meet the criteria to be assessed under the re-entry requirement of the clause 4 (c) you were not entitled to apply as an independent mature student."
The information that I got from SUSI back when I was deciding whether I could afford the masters, and the criteria they subsequently assessed me on, was the reference period of 1st Jan - 31st December 2011.
Again, I really don't see them getting away with this. I'm not a lawyer but I imagine equity would intervene on the side of the students because of the sheer unfairness of SUSI deciding to apply this rule when most people relied on their own (false) information in deciding to pursue their courses, and finished their studies half a year ago.
Did you a grant during your undergrad?It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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mango salsa wrote: »And were you independently assessed for the entire period?
As far as I can remember, yes I was.0 -
As far as I can remember, yes I was.
It could be argued that if you were independently assessed from the point of entry that you did not in fact need to be assessed based on your parents at the point of reentry as your status was not changing. It's a bit of a technical argument.
Was there a break between your undergrad and postgrad?It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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I got the same letter from this shower of halfwits! They were an absolute disaster to deal with in the first place, only being awarded a grant after months of back and forths and now they come at me with this internal audit nonsense!
They cant in their right mind expect students, whose decision to pursue higher education courses depended on the awarding of the grant, to give it back! Its not only unfair its inhumane! Some I'm sure, like myself, are now on jobseekers looking for work after completing said course, so even if they chased up their pipe-dream, what can the realisticly expect to get out of it?
On a side note, that point that they seem to often refer to where they state at least 3 years since previous education im nearly certain is new wording! I was extremely thorough in my application for grant and read through all of the fine print and clause nonsense and never came across this! Its so blatent that had it been there I would not have bothered applying in the first place! They have thrown that in since I applied I'm nearly certain, can anyone confirm that?0 -
In my case I was independent of my parents through my whole undergrad. The reason they gave me is that I wasn't over 23 when I first started college:
"As you were not 23 years of age on the first of January of your year of entry for the first time to an approved higher education course and do not meet the criteria to be assessed under the re-entry requirement of the clause 4 (c) you were not entitled to apply as an independent mature student."
The information that I got from SUSI back when I was deciding whether I could afford the masters, and the criteria they subsequently assessed me on, was the reference period of 1st Jan - 31st December 2011.
Again, I really don't see them getting away with this. I'm not a lawyer but I imagine equity would intervene on the side of the students because of the sheer unfairness of SUSI deciding to apply this rule when most people relied on their own (false) information in deciding to pursue their courses, and finished their studies half a year ago.
Anyone have any update on how susi are handling this?0 -
Anyone have any update on how susi are handling this?
I responded by email saying that it was their mistake therefore their responsibility not mine.
I got an email back which was a direct copy and paste from the letter and also to send them back the 'declaration form' which basically looks for my course details, pps no. etc.
I have no intention of giving them my info(although they have it all on file already so why would they to ask for it again - typical SUSI).
I have since replied again asking how to appeal this and I am waiting for them to get back to me.
I wonder how many people have been effected by this?0 -
I got the same letter, and as I plan to emigrate in April I think I'll just go down the ignore it route. Although I don't graduate til the end of February so I'm worried that if they get onto UCC they may be able to stop me graduating since I may technically have never paid my full fees.
What bugs me is that if SUSI had said no in the first place I would have been eligible for the €2000 postgraduate bursary UCC offers.0 -
freewilli88 wrote: »I got the same letter from this shower of halfwits! They were an absolute disaster to deal with in the first place, only being awarded a grant after months of back and forths and now they come at me with this internal audit nonsense!
They cant in their right mind expect students, whose decision to pursue higher education courses depended on the awarding of the grant, to give it back! Its not only unfair its inhumane! Some I'm sure, like myself, are now on jobseekers looking for work after completing said course, so even if they chased up their pipe-dream, what can the realisticly expect to get out of it?
On a side note, that point that they seem to often refer to where they state at least 3 years since previous education im nearly certain is new wording! I was extremely thorough in my application for grant and read through all of the fine print and clause nonsense and never came across this! Its so blatent that had it been there I would not have bothered applying in the first place! They have thrown that in since I applied I'm nearly certain, can anyone confirm that?
No
The 3 year rule has been there since about 2009 or 2010It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Someone screwed up and is under pressure to recover funds in this disingenuous way. I would return the letters with no cover. If they step things up see a solicitor. Or a TD. Its not your problem. Its SUSI's.0
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Hello!
I got this letter too. I have to say I'm relieved to see I'm not the only one.
I emailed SUSI after receiving the letter stating that I was not happy to be reassessed as I am not a dependent of my parents and have not been for a number of years and also because I gave my information accurately and honestly in my application for a grant so any responsibility for this 'error' lies with SUSI. Got the generic reply back which basically said the same as the letter.
Does anyone remember if we had to input bank details as part of the grant application process? I tried to logon to my SUSI account but couldn't access a copy of my application.
My inclination is to ignore their efforts to reassess me/'recoup' the money but if they have bank details I'm concerned that they are in a position to withdraw (limited) funds from me.
Has anyone been able to find information on SUSI's statutory rights to claim this money back? I've tried to research it but finding it hard to come up with anything!0 -
mango salsa wrote: »No
The 3 year rule has been there since about 2009 or 2010
Im nearly certain that their wording has changed, 'break from studies' was not in the clauses before! if it was, then theres no way so many people would apply down that route, it would have been pointless! you can be sure that this thread represents a minute % of the people in our position. They are chancing their arm because they are a shambles!
I vaguely remember the '3 year rule' (if that was the wording) being from the date/year of ENTRY to your first degree/3rd level course. There is something familiar about that interpretation which would explain how so many legitimate students/graduates face this approach from SUSI!
Surely SUSI cannot feasibly follow up on this 'recoup' on all these grants! Sure it would cost them just as much in legal fees and then no one wins except the solicitors! seems like a dead end and another round of pointless, inefficient and incompetent communication from SUSI.
Save the trees is what I say!0 -
freewilli88 wrote: »Im nearly certain that their wording has changed, 'break from studies' was not in the clauses before! if it was, then theres no way so many people would apply down that route, it would have been pointless! you can be sure that this thread represents a minute % of the people in our position. They are chancing their arm because they are a shambles!
I vaguely remember the '3 year rule' (if that was the wording) being from the date/year of ENTRY to your first degree/3rd level course. There is something familiar about that interpretation which would explain how so many legitimate students/graduates face this approach from SUSI!
Surely SUSI cannot feasibly follow up on this 'recoup' on all these grants! Sure it would cost them just as much in legal fees and then no one wins except the solicitors! seems like a dead end and another round of pointless, inefficient and incompetent communication from SUSI.
Save the trees is what I say!
The three year rule was there in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013. In 2009 from what I can see it was 1 year.
2013 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/si/0159.html
2012 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0189.html
2011 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0305.html
2010 http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/Education/2010%20SCHEME.pdf
2009 https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dublincity.ie%2FRecreationandCulture%2FHigherEducationGrants%2FDocuments%2F2009%2520HEG%2520SCHEME%2520Final.doc&ei=ABfYUta9OMi57AbW2YCADA&usg=AFQjCNFWf7OVTDQf2LYu0mo7t5v6vIqLjg&sig2=vkzHBxgpRa9ZOli13ArP6A&bvm=bv.59568121,d.ZGUIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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mango salsa wrote: »The three year rule was there in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013. In 2009 from what I can see it was 1 year.
2013 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/si/0159.html
2012 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0189.html
2011 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0305.html
2010 http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/Education/2010%20SCHEME.pdf
2009 https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dublincity.ie%2FRecreationandCulture%2FHigherEducationGrants%2FDocuments%2F2009%2520HEG%2520SCHEME%2520Final.doc&ei=ABfYUta9OMi57AbW2YCADA&usg=AFQjCNFWf7OVTDQf2LYu0mo7t5v6vIqLjg&sig2=vkzHBxgpRa9ZOli13ArP6A&bvm=bv.59568121,d.ZGU
Interesting, and also thanks for the links.
Would these have been uploaded and unchanged since 2011/2012?
Its all well and good to have the info in this document but I would love to see the information they were putting in front of us during the application process, i.e on the website proper (and not in the encyclopedia of terms and conditions), document communication etc etc. I hope I can find any pdfs I may have saved during my application because its unlikely anyone would have that!
In any case, they are chasing a lost cause! I wouldnt likely have the money to pay them back 2000 as Im still looking for work and theyl be hard pushed chasing me up for it as well! Theres people, possibly me included that may not have been in a financial position to complete a course without this grant, so to try and take it back is a disgrace! Is this nonsense happening to people who are still in college? that would be shameful!0 -
freewilli88 wrote: »Interesting, and also thanks for the links.
Would these have been uploaded and unchanged since 2011/2012?
Its all well and good to have the info in this document but I would love to see the information they were putting in front of us during the application process, i.e on the website proper (and not in the encyclopedia of terms and conditions), document communication etc etc. I hope I can find any pdfs I may have saved during my application because its unlikely anyone would have that!
In any case, they are chasing a lost cause! I wouldnt likely have the money to pay them back 2000 as Im still looking for work and theyl be hard pushed chasing me up for it as well! Theres people, possibly me included that may not have been in a financial position to complete a course without this grant, so to try and take it back is a disgrace! Is this nonsense happening to people who are still in college? that would be shameful!
The 2012-2013 ones are laws signed by Minister Quinn so they wouldn't have been changed since uploaded.
As regards SUSI it is unclear how they can or will recover this.
I'd suggest everyone getting advice from MABS on the issue.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Spotted this in the independent:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/students-may-be-forced-to-repay-grants-as-funding-stopped-four-months-into-term-29927395.html
I contacted the journalist Brian Byrne, explaining my situation and directing him to this thread. Might be good if others contact him too.
This is his form: http://brianbyrne.me/contact/0 -
Keeping an eye on this. Susi was a disaster from the very start and this unfortunately doesn't surprise me. I really hope no one has any intention of paying these half wits.0
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It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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I responded by email saying that it was their mistake therefore their responsibility not mine.
I got an email back which was a direct copy and paste from the letter and also to send them back the 'declaration form' which basically looks for my course details, pps no. etc.
I have no intention of giving them my info(although they have it all on file already so why would they to ask for it again - typical SUSI).
I have since replied again asking how to appeal this and I am waiting for them to get back to me.
I wonder how many people have been effected by this?
65 apparently. we have to be the 65 unluckiest people because im pretty sure every postgrad who applied made this same "mistake". In the application form (i found mine in an old email) it says "please check to guidance notes carefully" in the independent/dependent section .... the guidance notes mention nothing about first point of entry to a post leaving cert course or any of that ****e. It just says over 23 on 1st October the year before starting the course, which is the same thing it says on the student finance website, the citizens info website and the susi website back in 2012. How in any way is this our fault?
http://www.thejournal.ie/susi-post-graduate-grants-student-recovery-1269059-Jan2014/
I still have one semester left of my course, Im definitely not giving them back the money from last year but im worried they wont give me the fees for this year and I wont be able to finish my course. Has anyone been reassessed as a dependent student?
Give me back the last 2 years of my life susi and ill give you your money0 -
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If you get something you are not entitled to it is not yours, even if given in error. The correct way for them to resolve this is to treat it as a loan with a small repayment over a long period. So I suggest reaching an arrangement with them to pay €10 per month or something. That way, even if they can manage to get legal procedings against someone (which I doubt they could) the courts will laugh them out.0
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freewilli88 wrote: »Interesting, and also thanks for the links.
Would these have been uploaded and unchanged since 2011/2012?
Its all well and good to have the info in this document but I would love to see the information they were putting in front of us during the application process, i.e on the website proper (and not in the encyclopedia of terms and conditions), document communication etc etc. I hope I can find any pdfs I may have saved during my application because its unlikely anyone would have that!
In any case, they are chasing a lost cause! I wouldnt likely have the money to pay them back 2000 as Im still looking for work and theyl be hard pushed chasing me up for it as well! Theres people, possibly me included that may not have been in a financial position to complete a course without this grant, so to try and take it back is a disgrace! Is this nonsense happening to people who are still in college? that would be shameful!
yep still in college and they're not paying me for this year, and trying to get back money for last year. Do they think I have €11,000 just hanging around? The worst thing is I was 2 years out of college when I started, I would've just waited another year if I'd known about this.0 -
Spotted this in the independent:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/students-may-be-forced-to-repay-grants-as-funding-stopped-four-months-into-term-29927395.html
I contacted the journalist Brian Byrne, explaining my situation and directing him to this thread. Might be good if others contact him too.
This is his form: http://brianbyrne.me/contact/
Regarding the Dental Nursing courses described in the link above SUSI has approved them for grant purposes: http://careersnews.ie/full-time-dental-nursing-hygiene-courses-approved-student-grants/
Bit ridiculous to suspend them at all seeing as they were covered under the previous grant schemes.0 -
If you get something you are not entitled to it is not yours, even if given in error. The correct way for them to resolve this is to treat it as a loan with a small repayment over a long period. So I suggest reaching an arrangement with them to pay €10 per month or something. That way, even if they can manage to get legal procedings against someone (which I doubt they could) the courts will laugh them out.
I can understand where you're coming from but this is not as simple as you think. No money was actually given to us because there are no maintainence grants available anymore for postgraduate courses- they are just full or partial exemptions from the fees, which are paid directly to the colleges. So the idea of 'recovering' the money is ridiciulous- we never had it to begin with.
I think that in the rare event that SUSI were to get their lawyers after us, we could rely on the doctrine of promissory estoppel to stop them from recovering the money (I haven't studied law but used to be a note-taker in a few law classes).
Basically where you act in reliance of a promise, but then the person/organisation who made the promise decides to go back on it, promissory estoppel can force them to keep to their word. We are all students who would have qualified for a full or partial maintenance grant if our courses were undergraduate. So, given the information that we got on the website and from SUSI's advisors, as well as the fact that we did, in fact, get fee exemptions, I think the court would side with the students. I certainly wouldn't have decided to do a masters at all if I wasn't confident that I would get the fee exemption, and would have had to drop out if I found out I would have to pay €6,000 in fees. I had read up about my entitlement on the website and spoke to an advisor from SUSI. Neither of those sources said anything about this obscure rule, and I think it would be unreasonable if we were expected to find it out for ourselves when the SUSI assessors didn't even know about it until now.
Promissory estoppel: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Promissory+Estoppel0 -
I can understand where you're coming from but this is not as simple as you think. No money was actually given to us because there are no maintainence grants available anymore for postgraduate courses- they are just full or partial exemptions from the fees, which are paid directly to the colleges. So the idea of 'recovering' the money is ridiciulous- we never had it to begin with.
I think that in the rare event that SUSI were to get their lawyers after us, we could rely on the doctrine of promissory estoppel to stop them from recovering the money (I haven't studied law but used to be a note-taker in a few law classes).
Basically where you act in reliance of a promise, but then the person/organisation who made the promise decides to go back on it, promissory estoppel can force them to keep to their word. We are all students who would have qualified for a full or partial maintenance grant if our courses were undergraduate. So, given the information that we got on the website and from SUSI's advisors, as well as the fact that we did, in fact, get fee exemptions, I think the court would side with the students. I certainly wouldn't have decided to do a masters at all if I wasn't confident that I would get the fee exemption, and would have had to drop out if I found out I would have to pay €6,000 in fees. I had read up about my entitlement on the website and spoke to an advisor from SUSI. Neither of those sources said anything about this obscure rule, and I think it would be unreasonable if we were expected to find it out for ourselves when the SUSI assessors didn't even know about it until now.
Promissory estoppel: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Promissory+Estoppel
This is good to hear, I was wondering what our rights are regarding getting approval for a grant and then having it revoked. I'm currently trying to get advice from as many sources as possible, at the same time getting the word out about this complete injustice.
Maybe if everyone emails the USI then they will help fight our cause? It worked for the trinity students!0 -
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I also received a similar letter from SUSI claiming that I was ineligible to apply last year as an independent mature student as I did not comply with the three year rule and now they are looking for the cost of the fees they covered for me from last year.
This is just a horrible situation, I don't have access to my parent's income records and now I'm faced with the possibility of having to drop out of higher education when I'm nearly half way through my course. If this requirement was highlighted in my initial application I certainly wouldn't have proceeded with the course. I am really unsure as to where I stand this year as it's been three years since I finished the plc course, so because its too late to put in a fresh grant application will my application renewal will automatically be refused?
Any advice would be appreciated!
Speak to your student unionIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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I can understand where you're coming from but this is not as simple as you think. No money was actually given to us because there are no maintainence grants available anymore for postgraduate courses- they are just full or partial exemptions from the fees, which are paid directly to the colleges. So the idea of 'recovering' the money is ridiciulous- we never had it to begin with.
I think that in the rare event that SUSI were to get their lawyers after us, we could rely on the doctrine of promissory estoppel to stop them from recovering the money (I haven't studied law but used to be a note-taker in a few law classes).
Basically where you act in reliance of a promise, but then the person/organisation who made the promise decides to go back on it, promissory estoppel can force them to keep to their word. We are all students who would have qualified for a full or partial maintenance grant if our courses were undergraduate. So, given the information that we got on the website and from SUSI's advisors, as well as the fact that we did, in fact, get fee exemptions, I think the court would side with the students. I certainly wouldn't have decided to do a masters at all if I wasn't confident that I would get the fee exemption, and would have had to drop out if I found out I would have to pay €6,000 in fees. I had read up about my entitlement on the website and spoke to an advisor from SUSI. Neither of those sources said anything about this obscure rule, and I think it would be unreasonable if we were expected to find it out for ourselves when the SUSI assessors didn't even know about it until now.
Promissory estoppel: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Promissory+Estoppel
Yes, I asked some friends of mine and they said that promissory estoppel could be used as a basis for fighting this decision.I don't know what type of timescale SUSI have in mind for going after students but I really hope this does not effect my graduation.
Also if SUSI decline your application for a grant you have the right to appeal, so if they decide that we are now 'ineligable' shouldn't we still get the same right to an appeal?
I do hope that they are just chancing their, also like Clare pointed out above, we never actually got any money off SUSI, the university did, so shouldn't they retract it from the university first?0 -
UPDATE: only 6 out of 65 have asked to be reassessed.
It also says they sent out a second letter but I never got one and they didn't reply to the last email I sent.
http://www.thejournal.ie/susi-postgraduate-grants-seek-to-recover-1280608-Jan2014/0 -
I'm also one of the sixty-five. I got an initial letter a few weeks back and thought that it had been another one of the numerous mistakenly sent letters. I rang up the help desk to discover that this internal audit nonsense was for real and basically read one of the lads on the phone the riot act (whilst making it clear that I was in absolutely no way directing it towards him personally). SUSI are a disgraceful, mean and incompetent shower. Of course, you have to appreciate the sheer volume of applications they receive but nonetheless it is a simply shambolic system. I feel sorry for the helpdesk staff who are usually great and are probably getting all sorts of ire down the phone.
The grant application was one of the most stressful experiences I've had in ten years of college-life. It was one screw-up after another on their part - blank letters being sent out, requests for documentation that had already been sent, painfully dragging the process out. Now this!
I spoke to the fees department in my college - who are simply weary themselves of SUSI and their incompetence - and they have already received the fee contribution. Therefore, as far as I can understand, the student not paying back the money to SUSI would have no bearing on being able to graduate.0 -
Recieved same or similiar to everyone here. In the second year of my postgrad. I've explained to them on the phone recently that I no longer want to deal with them. I'm lucky in the sense that the second year is now being industry sponsored and therefore my fees are covered. I have no neccesity for the second fee contribution of 2000€. So that leaves me with the prospect of a reassessment for my first years fee contribution, a measly 2000€ ( measly in comparison to undergraduate fees and maintinence). To say the least I intend to give them as much hassle as they have I. I agree with others on this thread. Contact as many related organisations or relevent representatives as possible. I intend to make this disgrace public by any means, they deserve to be named and shamed. Most importantly I will lead them down a process as lengthy as theres.... from a financial point of view trying to recoup fees is simply moronic, in most cases the resulting legal costs will surpass by far anything they can possibly gain.
Final point would be that I find it hard to believe all postgrad applications from 2012 and 2013 where audited, does that mean the unlucky few where chosen from a hat...0 -
Ok so I received this reply from USI:
"The procedures SUSI need to follow mean that you will need to reapply under the status you originally applied for a grant under. Unless you took at three year gap between undergrad and postgrad you will need to go back to the way you applied when entering college ie. dependent student.
SUSI have a dedicated team for people experiencing the same issue as you so the turn around time should be significantly reduced. As you began college before you were 23 you will not be able to apply as a mature student but once SUSI reassesses you and sees you are independent you should be classed as such.
This is all down to a SUSI error but the grant scheme must be applied. You will not be asked to pay back any money if you reapply as advised. Should your grant be reduced based on the reassessment you could have grounds to appeal based on the mistake SUSI made but we will not know if this is needed until you are reassessed. We have outlined to SUSI the actions we may take if students so close to completing their programme are forced into a situation where they are denied their grant.
To clarify your next step will be to reapply as advised by SUSI and follow their instructions. In your correspondence make sure you state your situation has changed and you are no longer dependent on anyone. Should the outcome result in your grant being reduced or removed please contact me directly."
This made me even more confused for a while, I don't know who to trust anymore! It seems legitimate and the USI did sort out the trinity students so I trust them, but it doesn't seem very SUSI!0 -
I asked for clarification on some of those points and got this reply (she was very quick to reply and quite helpful):
"I understand your feelings toward SUSI, we have experienced the same inconsistencies through the helpdesk. On this issue though we are dealing with the top management so there is greater understanding.
When you reapply you will need to provide information on the year before your Postgrad so this should show how you were living away from home and paid your own bills etc. The same information you would have sent previously.
The issue is to do with the Grant Scheme itself. It says that unless you take a 3 year gap you keep the same 'status' of dependence/independence when applying. Though you apply under this status you are then assessed and this is where you are changed to independent if you are eligible.
What we are advising students to do is to go ahead with reapplying and get reassessed. Should SUSI make a decision that changes the grant you and others have been awarded we will then meet with them to seek resolutions again and take further action if needed."
what I want to know is why we weren't provided with this information already? Im not sure what to do now0 -
I asked for clarification on some of those points and got this reply (she was very quick to reply and quite helpful):
"I understand your feelings toward SUSI, we have experienced the same inconsistencies through the helpdesk. On this issue though we are dealing with the top management so there is greater understanding.
When you reapply you will need to provide information on the year before your Postgrad so this should show how you were living away from home and paid your own bills etc. The same information you would have sent previously.
The issue is to do with the Grant Scheme itself. It says that unless you take a 3 year gap you keep the same 'status' of dependence/independence when applying. Though you apply under this status you are then assessed and this is where you are changed to independent if you are eligible.
What we are advising students to do is to go ahead with reapplying and get reassessed. Should SUSI make a decision that changes the grant you and others have been awarded we will then meet with them to seek resolutions again and take further action if needed."
what I want to know is why we weren't provided with this information already? Im not sure what to do now
I'm really confused as well. I rang the USI yesterday and they told me the same thing they told you. My concern is that if I supply the information they are going to class me as a dependent student and ask me to hand over money. My parents' income is above the special rate threshold, so I imagine they would ask me for at least partial fees. If the USI thinks it makes a difference to show SUSI we are now independent, then why do we need to supply those parental income details at all? I still just don't see why I should do it so I'm not going to. I'm also leaving the country to teach for a year in Korea next month so they won't be able to get me there.
Did anyone get this letter they were supposedly sending out last Friday? (http://www.thejournal.ie/susi-postgraduate-grants-seek-to-recover-1280608-Jan2014/)? I haven't gotten it so far.0 -
I asked for clarification on some of those points and got this reply (she was very quick to reply and quite helpful):
"I understand your feelings toward SUSI, we have experienced the same inconsistencies through the helpdesk. On this issue though we are dealing with the top management so there is greater understanding.
When you reapply you will need to provide information on the year before your Postgrad so this should show how you were living away from home and paid your own bills etc. The same information you would have sent previously.
The issue is to do with the Grant Scheme itself. It says that unless you take a 3 year gap you keep the same 'status' of dependence/independence when applying. Though you apply under this status you are then assessed and this is where you are changed to independent if you are eligible.
What we are advising students to do is to go ahead with reapplying and get reassessed. Should SUSI make a decision that changes the grant you and others have been awarded we will then meet with them to seek resolutions again and take further action if needed."
what I want to know is why we weren't provided with this information already? Im not sure what to do now
As far as im concerned SUSI have all the information they required to assess me as independent for 12/13 year so to supply them with this material again as USI suggest is just not going to happen. The pain I went through for months providing them with the documentation and in one instance they had lost all my stuff and requested it all be sent again. If I understand correctly USI think that if we offer up parents income details to SUSI but consider our situation was independent then they would consider us independent? 1. SUSI are ruthless and incompetent so they will chance their arm as much as possible to get anything out of us and 2. if this was the case, they have the info already to see our situations were independent and we should not be held accountable for mistakes they made.
Take it like a man SUSI! 65 obviously financially struggling students are hardly worth chasing in an effort to salvage a shocking first year in operation! Just improve your system and recover a reputation through reduced future heartache for students! It might be more understandable if there were multiples of thousands of students awarded thousands of euro in contribution grants each but to chase just 65 is pitiful and shambolic!
Also, in a recent correspondence they have given me a 7th of feb deadline to be reassessed as a dependent! Anyone else get this deadline? I genuinely dont plan to apply to be reassessed as a dependent! theres no point, I know the household income threshold would have been exceeded (though not by much) so its a pointless step for me and a step closer for SUSI to get their incompetent way so why bother! They never made ANYTHING easy for us and now they want us to enter crippling debt to save their face. I think not!!0 -
freewilli88 wrote: »As far as im concerned SUSI have all the information they required to assess me as independent for 12/13 year so to supply them with this material again as USI suggest is just not going to happen. The pain I went through for months providing them with the documentation and in one instance they had lost all my stuff and requested it all be sent again. If I understand correctly USI think that if we offer up parents income details to SUSI but consider our situation was independent then they would consider us independent? 1. SUSI are ruthless and incompetent so they will chance their arm as much as possible to get anything out of us and 2. if this was the case, they have the info already to see our situations were independent and we should not be held accountable for mistakes they made.
Take it like a man SUSI! 65 obviously financially struggling students are hardly worth chasing in an effort to salvage a shocking first year in operation! Just improve your system and recover a reputation through reduced future heartache for students! It might be more understandable if there were multiples of thousands of students awarded thousands of euro in contribution grants each but to chase just 65 is pitiful and shambolic!
Also, in a recent correspondence they have given me a 7th of feb deadline to be reassessed as a dependent! Anyone else get this deadline? I genuinely dont plan to apply to be reassessed as a dependent! theres no point, I know the household income threshold would have been exceeded (though not by much) so its a pointless step for me and a step closer for SUSI to get their incompetent way so why bother! They never made ANYTHING easy for us and now they want us to enter crippling debt to save their face. I think not!!
Nail on the head here. Not a hope I'm playing ball with them on this. Furthermore, I can imagine that letting them have their way on this might set a dangerous precedent by creating a situation where it is accepted that future cock-ups by SUSI leave the student liable for repayment of any grant money once a mistake has been identified. Going on their pitiful operation thus far, the likelihood of future scenarios such as the one we find ourselves in currently, is high.0 -
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