Are the majority of drummers technophobes?

raindog.promo · 19-02-2012 6:02pm

Sky King wrote: »

Are you serious? Or are you speaking figuratively?

I wouldn;t have thought technophobia is related to what instrument you play.

In my opinon, some drummers don;t want to go down the programming route because they own acoustic kits, which don;t lend themselves too ready to being programmed.

I bought a set of V drums because I also like electronic music and I wanted to combine drumming with it.

I am serious,that's my experience. In saying that, they're 26 years of age and up. Pretty much what you said (in bold) is the situation. They dont use computers at all to make music and dismiss any suggestion of doing so

rcaz · 19-02-2012 6:27pm

Dr. Loon wrote: »

Music that doesn't have any time? Sorry, I know of no such music.

You should listen to more music then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2OQbA3r78M

Obviously there's time, but can you hear a beat or a rhythm or any meter at all?

Dr. Loon wrote: »

A drummer that says keeping time is pretty boring doesn't fully understand the idea of his basic role yet.

Oh, okay, I've wasted the last 5 years of my life then, thanks for clearing that up.

I'm practicing right now, and I've got Ableton Live clicking on every crochet. So I can worry about all the demisemiquavers and concentrate on my accents and rubato all and wait for the click to tell me when I'm on the next crochet. I'm way more interested in playing like that. But I don't understand what I should be doing as a drummer so that's fine, never mind my opinion. I should probably throw away the last two and a half years of my music degree too.

Dr. Loon · 19-02-2012 7:14pm

rcaz wrote: »

You should listen to more music then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2OQbA3r78M

Obviously there's time, but can you hear a beat or a rhythm or any meter at all?

I should listen to more music because what? You've given me an example of music that doesn't have timing? No, you haven't. It has timing, and you've succesfully proven... nothing. The musicians that sit down to play this, are given sheet music with the appropriate timing right? Let's not get into semantics here. The piece of music has timing. We're digressing here... Yes, I see what you mean, but it's hardly the best example considering we're talking about drumming here. I can post up a free style jazz flute solo. Is it relevant to a discussion on drumming? No.

Oh, okay, I've wasted the last 5 years of my life then, thanks for clearing that up.

FFS. Nowhere have I suggested you've wasted your life. I've suggested that you might be missing the point of being a drummer, yes. I myself, have only in the past few years realised mistakes I've been making. No doubt I'm still making mistakes. Are you suggesting you know all you need to know after 5 years? Do you think that there is no more learning to be done?

Why are you acting like facking children here? I'm giving you an honest appraisal of your comments, and you're getting sarcastic and slightly insulting. I admit, for the second time, my thread opener comments weren't the most balanced, and I'm sorry, but at least I'm willing to accept mistakes made, and apologise if necessary. You folks still want to dig and jibe?

But I don't understand what I should be doing as a drummer so that's fine, never mind my opinion. I should probably throw away the last two and a half years of my music degree too.

Possibly, I don't know. Maybe your drum teacher doesn't have a clue, I don't know. Maybe your course isn't up to scratch and you think it is. Maybe you're on track to becoming a musical genius. How the fack would I know? Or else, no, you shouldn't. I'm not saying anything of the sort, but I'll stand by my comment... a drummers bread and butter is his/her timing. There is no denying this. It's the drummers job ffs! If you can't hold time, you can't play drums. Or do you think I'm wrong here? Do you think you can play the drums without holding good time? Do you think having a degree in music means you're a better musician than the next guy? That you know more? Do you think telling us you have a degree has changed something important?

Ultimately, we're far removed from the original point here. I've posted my thoughts on the technology/drummers question, but you're focusing on defending your honour. Of course I don't know best, I mean, seriously? This is the best you can come up with? Childish sarcasm? How about an actual solid refutation of any of my points? Not taking into account already addressed points - such as the "erratic" idea. I still stand by the point that the premise of the thread is flawed. It's a generalisation. Am I wrong?

rcaz · 19-02-2012 8:03pm

Dr. Loon wrote: »

I should listen to more music because what? You've given me an example of music that doesn't have timing? No, you haven't. It has timing, and you've succesfully proven... nothing. The musicians that sit down to play this, are given sheet music with the appropriate timing right? Let's not get into semantics here. The piece of music has timing.

Yeah it has time, I said that. A piece of music starts, time passes, the music ends... All music has time. I never said there was music that doesn't 'have' time, I said there's music that doesn't focus on 'keeping' time, and music with no strict meter or rhythm.

That Ligeti piece doesn't have meter or rhythm, or any accents at all. Just sound that changes over the course of the piece. The musician's don't sit down and play the sheet music, they play to the direction of a conductor, who indicates when they're to change their line. You can't count that, you can't lock into the groove of that or play in the pocket of that or whatever else.

Dr. Loon wrote: »

Yes, I see what you mean, but it's hardly the best example considering we're talking about drumming here. I can post up a free style jazz flute solo. Is it relevant to a discussion on drumming? No.

You're putting a division between drumming and other musicianship there though, aren't you? Which is one of the points you argued against earlier? If a drummer is just concerned with timing, then maybe there should be a distinction between musicians and purely drummers? I don't think a drummer should be just concerned with timing.

Actually that's an interesting point, why are drummers so obsessed with keeping time? Every other kind of instrumentalist ever also has to keep time. Why do drummers make such a big deal of it?

Dr. Loon · 19-02-2012 8:54pm

rcaz wrote: »

Yeah it has time, I said that. A piece of music starts, time passes, the music ends... All music has time. I never said there was music that doesn't 'have' time, I said there's music that doesn't focus on 'keeping' time, and music with no strict meter or rhythm.

That Ligeti piece doesn't have meter or rhythm, or any accents at all. Just sound that changes over the course of the piece. The musician's don't sit down and play the sheet music, they play to the direction of a conductor, who indicates when they're to change their line. You can't count that, you can't lock into the groove of that or play in the pocket of that or whatever else.

You're putting a division between drumming and other musicianship there though, aren't you? Which is one of the points you argued against earlier? If a drummer is just concerned with timing, then maybe there should be a distinction between musicians and purely drummers? I don't think a drummer should be just concerned with timing.

Actually that's an interesting point, why are drummers so obsessed with keeping time? Every other kind of instrumentalist ever also has to keep time. Why do drummers make such a big deal of it?

I see your point. Yes, there's no groove to lock onto there, and I understand the musicians would be at the direction of a conductor. I'm pretty sure this music, written out, will have a time signature though? The divison between drummers and other musicians seems to me to be a reality. It's expected of drummers to have great timing. In my experience I don't think it's expected so highly of other musicians.

I think drummers are obsessed with timing, because it's their bread and butter. As a drummer, you'll usually be looked to as the one who is keeping the time for everyone else. I agree with you on the point that a drummer shouldn't only be concerned with timing. Musicality, and flair and technique and all the other things are important. I just think a drummers starting point should be to get the timing thing down. Then start concentrating on all that other good stuff.

In the context of the original post, I don't think computers can replicate the human piece. In fact, the Ligeti piece is probably a good example for this. I'm not sure a computer will pull that off. I'm not even sure it'd be played exactly the same, every time by human musicians. I could be wrong though.

theboat · 24-02-2012 12:21am

I'm a drummer, been playing for nearly 11 years now. I don't use any electronic elements like pads, samples, etc. in my playing. And I know virtually nothing about how to programme (though I'd quite like to learn).
I do often practice on an electronic kit, but I would not use it for most live/band situations because I personally prefer the feel and sound of an acoustic kit (particularly the feel and the tones of the cymbals - imo a rubber pad can never replicate this).
However, one of the things I regret about my playing is not using a metronome/click more often for practising. Time, as Dr. Loon has repeatedly said, is the drummer's bread and butter. The most important thing for me, as a drummer, in all of the styles that I am likely to play, is time/groove. There are few things as satisfying as finding the pocket and staying there. It doesn't really matter what style, or what particular pattern you're playing. The tune needs to groove.
Staying in time, keeping time for the rest of the band, that's the thing I'm most concerned about. If someone wants or likes to use technology or a click as part of that, or to help get there, that's cool.
I'm not opposed to, or scared by the idea of using technology as part of drumming. But personally, I know I'd need more practice to be comfortable using it, because it's something I'm not used to. I know several session drummers who are regularly required to play to a click because there could be programmed tracks on the tune. It's an important part of lots of music.
Also, in response to OP's comment about learning to read music, I don't think it leads to "samey/too clinical drum technique". On the contrary, it massively helps your drum technique and can greatly vary it.

i57dwun4yb1pt8 · 20-03-2012 2:37pm

my two cents - been drumming for 30 years , also now play bass, guitar , keys
and have spent 5 years learning how to record and produce and still learning .

I use an ekit , and samples all the time , and love them
mainly cos i get a pro sound in a small room, and its my playing style .
I still record real cymbals though - as i find the feel is just that bit better

my obervations about drummers

the drummers from about 20 - 25 years ago - in the main
hated drum machines , clicks , and were more of the ANIMAL mentality

i was one of those troopers

playing too loud, using bats for sticks
not self mixing the kit playing , wouldnt use anyone elses kit ,
wouldnt let people use mine, hated computerS and drum machines
never practised, never used a click. thought samples were the tools of satan.
couldnt read music or play another instrument.
or tune them !

i had to evolve or die .

the drummers of today appear to be much more savvy with machines , e kits , programming , samples
etc

what i do find is todays drummers seem to lack power and projection - not all but alot .
they do not hit the drums hard enough to project , particulalry the kick and the toms .

so here are some tips for modern drummers :
its a big ask / list -
but the days of the hairy drooling neanderthal 'hanging around with musicians' is over guys.

1/ learn to self mix - play your kit with these levels in mind
hit the following hardest from a down to f quietest

a/ toms
b/ kick
c /snare
d/ ride
e/ crashes
f/ hats - if possible choose a set of hats that are quiet and dark.

and learn to play each drum consistently - hit that backbeat the same vol every time .

2/ always always always
play with a click and or drum machine when practising or rehearsing
dont fear the click - even the very best get edited down and tweaked when recording
the studio is microscope and its pointed at you - dont go in unprepared - you WILL feel like a useless c*nt if you do.
make the click your friend from day one of picking up sticks.

ALWAYS

3/ learn another instrument - at least bass
piano is better though.
and learn to read music - at least a basic understanding .

4/ learn how to mic and produce a kit in a studio -
even better learn how to record and produce on a computer.
if it means annoying the enginner - annoy them - learn what mics and why / where.

5/ obviously learn to tune a kit -
and which heads suit room sizes and mics better than others.

6/ learn how to use samples / ekits - including things like ez drummer
- this is the future - now

7/ always wear hearing protection of some form - or use good in ear phones
ALWAYS !

8/ if the engineer says use this snare instead of yours - do it
yours is more than likely sh1t.
and never record with cheap cymbals - partc crashes
just dont do it - it sounds like a turd every time.
borrow or rent some good ones.

never allow ego to get in the way of sounding good

9/ get the best gear you can afford -
dont buy a brand new pearl export when a second hand yammie recording custom is available cheaper
just because travis barker plays pearl.
think sound - not hype .

10/ learn to use brushes - most of the top drummers you know or love
will likely be just at home playing jazz on tiny kit with brushes - open your mind

11/ learn to project the kit like a singer - its like point 1
if you are unmiked - play the room ,
learn to hit the sound off the back wall , the middle of the room , the front of the stage
this allows you to play dynamicilly and not drown out everyone else.

12// NEVER overplay - play the song - not your ego

13// open your mind

raindog.promo · 20-03-2012 2:47pm

Great post.
I've heard of a few people getting together, renting out a studio for a workshop where someone comes in and shows them how to mic up a drum kit. Don't know if they still happen these days though.

RE - Self mixing:
Is this just being aware of how heavy you're hitting the drum/cymbal?

i57dwun4yb1pt8 · 20-03-2012 4:30pm

yes,
in the main - you hit the drums harder than the cymbals
toms the hardest etc

cymbals should be swiped or played just enough to get the tone and no more
unless its for effect.

most good drummers do this automatically

nothing worse than having a drummers hi hats all over the overheads , snare mic , tom mics - even the kick mic in some cases.

the addes bonus is - its saves your ears as well.

i57dwun4yb1pt8 · 20-03-2012 9:00pm

one comment re drummer focus on time

the drummer in most modern music is the one looked to to keep time ,
most modern music is dead on time wise and people now expect this
partic with the advent of dance music and machine based music

drummers are expected to be accurate or the music sounds sloppy
your average punter will know straight away . especially in headphone experienced music.

in jazz its usually the bass player - jazz doesnt really use a click either.
jazz is more free timewise and not really expected to be as tight as a gnats chuff.

Are the majority of drummers technophobes?

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