Season 5 x 09: The Dance of Dragons - HAVE READ the books

08-06-2015 3:42am #1

I never thought that someone would make me wish for a Bolton victory in the upcoming war at Winterfell; Stannis Baratheon, take a bow.

That's all I have for now, gotta go and pick my jaw up off the floor here.

Easy Rod · 08-06-2015 3:49am

Great episode to follow up on last week's success. Looks like they saved a bit of the budget to do the fighting pits well after the hard home battle scene!

Savage Tyrant · 08-06-2015 3:52am

Just as good as the previous episode....

The Stannis/Shireen bit blew me away.... I literally felt sick watching it...

mrkite77 · 08-06-2015 5:59am

Never trust a grammar nazi.

Nody · 08-06-2015 6:51am

Well that was quite a difference to the book; esp. as I thought the mother if anyone would be cheering it on (seeing how hardcore she's been on the subject previously or at least offer herself instead). The fighting pits was honestly silly; so no one noticed them carrying in those masks and all the weapons? Seriously?! Once again the unsullied are shown as chump warriors who go down like your common recruit as well rather then account for themselves...

I'd not rate it as good as the previous episode but it's definitely setting things up for the next episode.

December2012 · 08-06-2015 7:48am

I'm not sure how realistic flying out of an amphitheatre on a dragon could ever ever look, but that CG at the end looked really bad to me! Like something out of Xena.

And Shireeen? Shireen? Jesus I'm depressed now.

Kunkka · 08-06-2015 9:23am

Ok so I said last week that they'd kill Stannis this week. They done worse, they destroyed the actual character. This is the Stannis that ate rats and leather from his shoes during a siege. Who holds honor and duty above everything else. The show instead made him out to be a weakling that burnt his daughter so he could get a ****ing steak sandwich..... I am really gutted by it as he was my favorite characters.... Like people have said you'd almost want the Bolton's to succeed now.... The only thing I'd say is it does set it up for Jon possible being reincarnated & then taking over the forces in the North with Stannis probably being killed by Brienne? It would make sense because they did make it obvious his forces weren't happy, who else could lead them if Stannis dies? Between the burning and the scene in the brothel I can't help but think the show is looking for cheap shock moments while sacrificing good characters....

Dorne..... holy **** it's bad. Back to the world of Xena again this week. Hotah's axe looks like he bought it in Penny's Halloween section.

As for Meereen it was decent and I enjoyed Drogon's moment but the Unsullied are supposed to be these great warriors.... they were butchered by a bunch of slave masters for god sake. As for Dany flying off with Drogon.....

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Taboola · 08-06-2015 10:24am

I thought it was a good follow up to last weeks episode. The seen with Shireen was quite disturbing even if I knew it was coming.

I cannot wait for next season now since they've caught up with the books.

Interesting that they killed Hizdahr zo Loraq. I assumed he was the one who had planted the locusts to kill Dany so thought that the Son's of The Harpy coming into the pits was his doing as well.

FunLover18 · 08-06-2015 10:39am

Kunkka wrote:

Ok so I said last week that they'd kill Stannis this week. They done worse, they destroyed the actual character.

This!! It made no sense and there was very little time given to his turnaround. "No, I'm not burning my daughter!! What? Twenty men burnt some tents ... Shireen!" It madee zero sense not to mention the effect it would have on morale of the men.

I thought that episode was utter ****. They cut out the Ironborn but they clearly struggled to find enough material for 10 episodes this season. They really dragged out the Arya stuff, will he recognise her, won't he? Look Lord Tyrell is singing, Oh did he recognise her? The fighting pits was boring; a look of acknowledgment and possibly respect between Jorah and Daario, a look between Jorah and Dany, don't forget Tyrion, and that's just before the action, I don't think I've seen so many people look at each other meaningfully while being attacked. The CGI was pretty poor on her flight, and Emilia Clarke looked bored. Dorne was as pointless as ever but how hilarious was it the that Trystrane's condition was an elbow in the face from Hotah? Yes, that was sarcasm. How come Dorne haven't heard about Cersei being arrested.

I watched it live last night and I'm still pretty cross, they should have called that episode "Filler, with dragons" cause that's all it was.

I am curious as to what Davos will do at the wall? Will he be there for the stabbing?

podgemonster · 08-06-2015 10:44am

Very hard to compete with the superiority of Hardhome and it is a shame the energy and urgency wasnt maintained but i guess they have to save something for Ep10.

I though the actress playing Selyse (Tara Fitzgerald) was excellent this week for the first time ever. I really liked how her basic maternal instinct overcame her R'hollar brainwashing, she knew it was wrong. Shireens screams, jesus they were haunting and even more haunting when the screaming stopped. It's disappointing what they are trying to do with Stannis after some great character development from last years seasons finale, to his heart to heart with Shireen earlier this season. He transitioned from a dark cold miserable King to Stannis The Mannis! Now he's fallen back further as a desperate nutjob, which is disappointing. I think the writers have really placed him now as a weak individual and are almost trying to justify his downfall by Brienne or Roose (and I'll add Davos to that list now too). The burning of Shireen was a powerful scene nonetheless.

So Meryn Trant is not only a murderous cúnt he is now also a Pedo, just in case we needed further justification for Arya to slice him up. Fair enough. Loved how cringey Mace Tyrell is, even Tyco couldn't keep a straight face infront of him. I like that, bit of humour.

Dorne: Who fúcking cares.

Meereen: I enjoyed this scene despite some questionable CGI near the end but still, it can not be cheap to put an actress flying on a dragon that isn't there, in a stadium full of people that aren't there. There was an excellent feeling of danger through the scene. The verbal sparring between Hisdar, Dario and The Imp were more entertaining than what was happening in the Pit. Jorahs fight dragged a bit but the spear throw was epic. Thought he was going for Hisdar. Chaos descended very quickly. I was hoping she would just burn the city to the ground. Interesting to see how they will tie off the story-lines there next week. I predict Dario will get barbecued releasing Vicerion and Rhagal!

googled eyes · 08-06-2015 11:06am

They've telegraphed Olly so much in the past few episodes that the stabbing is hardly going to come as a shock now.

It will either be the season cliff hanger or Jon opening his eyes will be.

Shireen screams were terrible but brilliantly shocking.

I always picture Drogon as being much bigger at this point.....

Nody · 08-06-2015 11:09am

googled eyes wrote: »

They've telegraphed Olly so much in the past few episodes that the stabbing is hardly going to come as a shock now.

It will either be the season cliff hanger or Jon opening his eyes will be.

I could see them do a scene with Jon opening his eyes and them being blue as there's been focusing in on the eyes a lot recently...

RobbingBandit · 08-06-2015 11:20am

That Stannis is no King of mine. Poor Ser Davos will be heartbroken.

bopper · 08-06-2015 12:47pm

Kunkka wrote: »

Ok so I said last week that they'd kill Stannis this week. They done worse, they destroyed the actual character. This is the Stannis that ate rats and leather from his shoes during a siege. Who holds honor and duty above everything else. The show instead made him out to be a weakling that burnt his daughter so he could get a ****ing steak sandwich..... I am really gutted by it as he was my favorite characters....

Future book spoilers -

It's been confirmed Stannis burns Shireen in one of the unpublished books.

FunLover18 · 08-06-2015 12:56pm

bopper wrote: »

Future book spoilers -
It's been confirmed Stannis burns Shireen in one of the unpublished books.

I would hope in the book there's a lot more time given how he came to make that crazy and desperate decision.

RollieFingers · 08-06-2015 1:03pm

I was expecting more after last week, like the majority of this season that episode was fairly poor! Also, the state of the CGI at the end, looked so bad!

Gunslinger92 · 08-06-2015 1:12pm

bopper wrote: »

Future book spoilers -
It's been confirmed Stannis burns Shireen in one of the unpublished books.

Link?

jones · 08-06-2015 1:18pm

RollieFingers wrote: »

I was expecting more after last week, like the majority of this season that episode was fairly poor! Also, the state of the CGI at the end, looked so bad!

i think they blew their cgi budget on hardhome last week

conorhal · 08-06-2015 1:54pm

Kunkka wrote: »

Ok so I said last week that they'd kill Stannis this week. They done worse, they destroyed the actual character. This is the Stannis that ate rats and leather from his shoes during a siege. Who holds honor and duty above everything else. The show instead made him out to be a weakling that burnt his daughter so he could get a ****ing steak sandwich..... I am really gutted by it as he was my favorite characters.... Like people have said you'd almost want the Bolton's to succeed now.... The only thing I'd say is it does set it up for Jon possible being reincarnated & then taking over the forces in the North with Stannis probably being killed by Brienne? It would make sense because they did make it obvious his forces weren't happy, who else could lead them if Stannis dies? Between the burning and the scene in the brothel I can't help but think the show is looking for cheap shock moments while sacrificing good characters....

It might have made more sense in the books, Stannis' army had been snowbound for weeks and were all alternately starving/freezing to death, thus making it more of a Hobson's choice, do I sacrifice my daughter or do we all freeze here?
This move smacks more of a 'we need an episode 9 shock death, where's Shereen?' and it tipifies a lot of the lazy inorganic plot development that has happened this season.
More then once I've asked myself, why did that happen all of a sudden? And answered myself, because the plot need to move on but there's just no time to do so and have it make sense.
Without the time on the TV show to develop the increesingly dire situation that Stannis found his army in, it would have made more sense from a characterization point of view for for his zealous wife to take the decision out of his hands and do the deed.

Washington Irving · 08-06-2015 2:24pm

Apparently, it was GRRM's idea. Which seems to suggest (BOOK THEORY):

Melisandre and Selyse burn Shireen at Castle Black

EDIT:

bopper wrote: »

Future book spoilers -
It's been confirmed Stannis burns Shireen in one of the unpublished books.

First I've heard of this. Got a link?

GhostInTheRuins · 08-06-2015 3:14pm

Why do the show writers have a vendetta out for Stannis?

Of course book stannis is a arsehole at times, but I'm fairly sure he'd never burn is only daughter alive so that the weather would clear up a bit.

**** this, Stannis is still my one true king :mad:

bopper · 08-06-2015 3:47pm

Gunslinger92 wrote: »

Link?

Washington Irving wrote: »

First I've heard of this. Got a link?

If you look up the "inside the episode" on YouTube they mention it about 90 seconds in.

I must be one of the few that doesn't think that was out of character for Stannis. I've never disliked the character, but I never saw him as a "good guy" either.

Washington Irving · 08-06-2015 3:48pm

Just rewatching a few scenes:

-Why did Jon approach the Wall from the north?

-Why did no one mention the Walkers immediately? It's a pretty significant event in the grand scheme of things.

-How did the Unsullied let a Harpy get right up behind Dany and when did these highly trained-from-youth soldiers become such bog standard fighters?

-Hizdahr is not the Harpy.

-Jorah touched Dany like a fool. What was he thinking?

-Jorah is badass.

-Dany and Drogon looked like Malfoy on a broom.

-Dorne still sucks, can't believe we missed the kingsmoot for this (for a year at any rate).

-Doran is badass.

-Olly stabbing Jon is going to go down as the most predictable twist in TV history.

-Ramsay and his 20 men managed that a little too easily.

-Meryn Trant gonna get what's coming to him.

-Stannis hype at an all time low, that decision was made way too quickly and with little reason. Complete 180 from Stannis earlier this season.

-I'm up for the Night's King now.

Washington Irving · 08-06-2015 3:54pm

bopper wrote: »

If you look up the "inside the episode" on YouTube they mention it about 90 seconds in.

I must be one of the few that doesn't think that was out of character for Stannis. I've never disliked the character, but I never saw him as a "good guy" either.

Confirms Shireen burns, but not necessarily that Stannis gives the command. Given Stannis is at Winterfell and Shireen is at Castle Black with Melisandre, I'm clinging on to hope for now.

bopper · 08-06-2015 3:55pm

I'm surprised to see so much negativity around this episode, for me it was really strong. Yes the dragon CGI was a bit dodgy at the end but I think it's a bit of a stretch to expect visuals as strong as last week every episode. Plus I only felt the shots of Dany on the back of the Dragon were poor, the rest looked fine to me.

bopper · 08-06-2015 4:08pm

Washington Irving wrote: »

Confirms Shireen burns, but not necessarily that Stannis gives the command. Given Stannis is at Winterfell and Shireen is at Castle Black with Melisandre, I'm clinging on to hope for now.

Perhaps, but to me it really sounds like he does - They thought it was horrible when George told them, but it really moves the story along from the moment we first meet Stannis. It could just be the way the video is edited, but I picked it up that the involvement of Stannis is what they found so horrible.

Easy Rod · 08-06-2015 4:20pm

Ha, I got the most inappropriate pop up ad on this thread!

googled eyes · 08-06-2015 4:21pm

Plot twist : Olly tries to save Jon during the stabathon

googled eyes · 08-06-2015 4:22pm

I thought Dany had a legion of Unsullied. How come there were only about 20-30 in the arena ?

Grey Wind · 08-06-2015 4:32pm

That was pretty bad. The Shireen part in particular was an awful change, it felt like pure shock factor and came out of nowhere given how Stannis' character has been established. The writers really do not understand how some of the characters are supposed to be written. Also, I can't imagine Stannis would burn her in the book unless something awful happens to him. I assumed Melisandre and Selyse would burn her without consulting him.

Daznak's Pit was ok, preferred how it went down in the books. CGI wasn't great towards the end and I thought Drogon would be bigger at this point.

Dorne remains as awful as ever.

chanelfreak · 08-06-2015 4:43pm

+1 for thinking that Drogon would be bigger at this stage too, I always saw him as fairly huge when I was reading ADwD.

I'm in shock over the Stannis/Shireen plot - first of all, I thought that maybe they (Mel & Stan) were doing it for the whole Nissa Nissa/Lightbringer reason, but it just played out that he did it to get into Winterfell - WTF like? Will have to watch it again tonight, but I did NOT enjoy that episode at all.

So what do we think for next week? Olly stabbing Jon is a given (I would think), but will they show him coming back? Seeing as the book hasnt yet given any firm indication that he will come out of it? Also, where is Ghost? Cos I think the book points us toward

Jon warging into Ghost at the moment of his death

Im still hoping that good old Lady Stoneheart will make an appearance next week for the finale

Witcher · 08-06-2015 4:47pm

chanelfreak wrote: »

So what do we think for next week? Olly stabbing Jon is a given (I would think), but will they show him coming back? Seeing as the book hasnt yet given any firm indication that he will come out of it? Also, where is Ghost? Cos I think the book points us toward
Jon warging into Ghost at the moment of his death

Jon has to come back next week, they wouldn't be able to hide the fact that Kit is filming next year and he wouldn't be able to be in the trailers or other promo material.

Ghost is in Castle Black.

chanelfreak · 08-06-2015 4:50pm

Strider wrote: »

Jon has to come back next week, they wouldn't be able to hide the fact that Kit is filming next year and he wouldn't be able to be in the trailers or other promo material.

Ghost is in Castle Black.

But has it been confirmed anywhere that Kit is definitely coming back? I wouldnt take anything for granted at this stage of both the show and the books...

Savage Tyrant · 08-06-2015 4:57pm

I think we could safely start referring to Olly as "Stabby McStabberson" ... Even on the Non Book Readers thread and it wouldn't be giving anything extra away.

Giruilla · 08-06-2015 5:00pm

bopper wrote: »

I'm surprised to see so much negativity around this episode, for me it was really strong. Yes the dragon CGI was a bit dodgy at the end but I think it's a bit of a stretch to expect visuals as strong as last week every episode. Plus I only felt the shots of Dany on the back of the Dragon were poor, the rest looked fine to me.

Me too, was close to my favourite episode of the whole show. I thought the fighting pits CGI was outstanding for a tv show.

I don't get the anger about Stannis.. he murdered his brother too. He's forced into doing what he sees is the only option he has left - awful option as it is.
And as has been pointed out, it was GRRMs idea.

FunLover18 · 08-06-2015 5:18pm

bopper wrote:

I must be one of the few that doesn't think that was out of character for Stannis. I've never disliked the character, but I never saw him as a "good guy" either.

He's not a good guy but he has a code. Even killing Renley was pretty understandable given that he was trying to usurp Stannis and claim his throne. How he did it was definitely shnakey though, very shnakey.

Giruilla wrote:

I don't get the anger about Stannis.. he murdered his brother too. He's forced into doing what he sees is the only option he has left - awful option as it is. And as has been pointed out, it was GRRMs idea.

His brother was trying to usurp him. Shireen is not only innocent but his heir and at no point did I feel that he had no other options left, certainly not because twenty men burnt a few tents. It's just bad writing.

jones · 08-06-2015 5:19pm

It just doesnt seem to fit with his book or tv character though. He was busy telling everyone to F off when they told him he'd have to kill her or send her away with the greyscale and the big speech about her being his daughter etc. Stannis as a character was really growing on me...and now this.

I think GRRM is just a narcisist :rolleyes:

Washington Irving · 08-06-2015 5:44pm

FunLover18 wrote: »

His brother was trying to usurp him. Shireen is not only innocent but his heir and at no point did I feel that he had no other options left, certainly not because twenty men burnt a few tents. It's just bad writing.

Pretty accurate summation of how things must have gone down (stolen from reddit):

"Red woman! You said you had superpowers over fire. How did twenty men led by a guy wearing no shirt in a blizzard burn down half my camp and burn my food? How do you even ****ing burn food in a blizzard?"
"My king, if we burn your only daughter alive while she screams and pleads for mercy, I swear we will win."
"How?"
"Trust me. I got this."
"Okay."

Giruilla · 08-06-2015 5:45pm

FunLover18 wrote: »

It's just bad writing.

By who, the show writers or GRRM?

Can't help but feel if Shireen had been killed in the books people wouldn't have a problem with it.
I imagine Stannis thoughts would(/will) be a lot more fleshed out in the book - to show he felt it was his only option.

jones · 08-06-2015 5:51pm

Giruilla wrote: »

By who, the show writers or GRRM?

Can't help but feel if Shireen had been killed in the books people wouldn't have a problem with it.
I imagine Stannis thoughts would(/will) be a lot more fleshed out in the book - to show he felt it was his only option.

I think people are finding it hard to believe he'd even do it especially with how he's being protrayed in the show. Even stuff like the red wedding made some sort of sense in the overall story, this just doesn't for me.

In the books Stannis isnt even with her so its hard to know if he'll be directly involved if it does transpire.

awec · 08-06-2015 5:52pm

I thought it was an awful episode tbh. Nowhere near as good as last week.

It seemed poorly made too. The dragon CGI looked well dodgy and did anyone else notice Jorah's sword bending about showing it was obviously rubber when he was fighting?

Savage Tyrant · 08-06-2015 5:59pm

I think if Stannis is to survive into the next series it would have been better for that scene to have been done back at the wall without him after receiving a raven that they were snowed in and without food or supplies.
If however as I Suspect now, he'll meet his end at the hands of the Boltons or Brienne then it probably suits the show direction better this way in their minds.

I still dont think it was in keeping with his character to burn his daughter though.
I think the show is trying to telegraph that Dany is the only claimant to the T Horne with true noble intentions.

Washington Irving · 08-06-2015 6:11pm

Giruilla wrote: »

By who, the show writers or GRRM?

Can't help but feel if Shireen had been killed in the books people wouldn't have a problem with it.
I imagine Stannis thoughts would(/will) be a lot more fleshed out in the book - to show he felt it was his only option.

I don't think many have a problem with Shireen getting the Joan of Arc treatment (in terms of the story), but rather how unjustified it seemed.

Even in the Inside the Episode video, D&D say "once Stannis makes a decision, he never changes his mind" despite him already refusing to sacrifice Shireen. The reasons just weren't explored near enough, felt like shock value for the sake of it at the expense of a character they've been building since season two.

awec · 08-06-2015 6:18pm

I feel the show has lost it's way somewhat this season. With the exception of last week the episodes have been pretty dull and in some parts just made no sense.

I said last week that it felt like a bridging season and that's true, but at the same time I haven't been impressed and it is certainly a lot weaker than seasons 1 to 4. Almost as if they have had a big budget cut. Really hope they get it together for season 6 and get back on track, and also hope that the season finale is done well.

Sleepy · 08-06-2015 6:25pm

I can't help but wonder at how spoiled modern audiences have become when the CGI in this episode is being criticised. Sure, there were a couple of seconds worth of dodgy CGI work but (a) this is a TV show and (b) most of the scene looked incredible. How would this generation have fared back in the days of Dynamation and Ray Harryhausen's work?

The decision to burn Shireen made sense to me, having read the books and preview chapters and knowing how truly desperate Stannis is in his position in the snow but I felt they could have added another minute or two of screen time over the past few weeks to demonstrate that better. Was never in the Stannis fan club anyway, always loved Donal Noye's comment that pretty accurately summed up the Baratheons:

Donal Noye wrote:

Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.

The writing is getting clunkier imo but I'm still enjoying the show more than anything else I've watched on television for years (last time I was such a dedicated fan of something I was about 10 and the show was MacGuyver).

FunLover18 · 08-06-2015 6:27pm

Giruilla wrote:

By who, the show writers or GRRM?

The show. I haven't read any preview chapters from the unpublished books and so if it does happen in the books I have no idea how or why therefore it would unfair for me to judge.

Washington Irving wrote:

I don't think many have a problem with Shireen getting the Joan of Arc treatment (in terms of the story), but rather how unjustified it seemed.

This pretty much. I mean it's not the the show didn't have time to explore the reasons, this episode was 99% filler. Instead of wasting time on showing Stannis to be a loving father only to backtrack they could have had him out of the wall and explored and shown the desperation of their situation further. I can't even remember why he brought shireen in the first place.

Mr Freeze · 08-06-2015 7:09pm

As a massive Stannis fan from the books, you may have seen me post in previous threads that I thought they were setting Brienne up to kill him and that I would rather see her flayed.

Well I have changed my mind.

I don't care how TV show Stannis dies, as long as he does. I hope his men abandon him, they looked absolutely appalled. This is the man they fight for, a man who burns his only heir.

What an awful change to make and an awful scene to watch.

The dragon riding scene was a bit sh1t too, they should have shown it happen a bit quicker and just get the scene over with it, instead of that never ending story riding sequence, it was cringe.

Bar the 20 mins of episode 8, this is a fairly poor season, thank feck we have the books!

/rant

ZeitgeistGlee · 08-06-2015 7:09pm

After Hardholme this was an immensely unsatisfying episode. TV Stannis has never been a patch of the book version but this was a new low. The shambles that is the Dornish plotline is just adding insult to injury at this point.

Mr Freeze · 08-06-2015 7:13pm

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

After Hardholme this was an immensely unsatisfying episode. TV Stannis has never been a patch of the book version but this was a new low. The shambles that is the Dornish plotline is just adding insult to injury at this point.

Certainly not the same Stannis that survived the siege at Storms end on rats and leather. Burns his daughter after one particularly bad night.

blatantrereg · 08-06-2015 7:16pm

Nody wrote: »

Well that was quite a difference to the book;

What an awful change to make

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Certainly not the same Stannis that survived the siege at Storms end on rats and leather. Burns his daughter after one particularly bad night.

Apparently it was GRRM's idea, so I guess it will happen in the books too.

http://www.hypable.com/game-of-thrones-shireen-spoilers/

ZeitgeistGlee · 08-06-2015 7:26pm

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Certainly not the same Stannis that survived the siege at Storms end on rats and leather. Burns his daughter after one particularly bad night.

Indeed, nor the same man who told the Iron Bank "If I die in this campaign you make my daughter Queen instead". This actually sums it up quite nicely.

blatantrereg wrote: »

Apparently it was GRRM's idea, so I guess it will happen in the books too.

I'd like to see confirmation of that, but even if it's true it mightn't necessarily occur in the books. GoT and ASoIaF have enough differences between them that would allow him to suggest things for the series that wouldn't make sense in the books. Plenty of characters are quite different from their book counterparts as to sell different motivations.

Season 5 x 09: The Dance of Dragons - HAVE READ the books

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